RangerT

While I agree that the methods of scouting are important and should be followed there are also certain CO'S that have completely restructured them to meet their own agenda, the LDS church is a good example, uses scouting to prepare their boys for their mission. It sounds like Pappy has created a pre Vatican II Catholic Ranger troop using only what he wants to from the methods of the BSA. These inconsistencies in program delivery are what causes a lot of problems for the BSA. However, close your eyes Bob, if a unit shows growth, advancement and contributes nicely to FOS each year most councils don't really seemed too concerned with the program it delivers. Signing the agreement only states that you will use the elements of the BSA, it does not state which ones or how much of each one, but it is not a legal agreement. As for the title of this thread can it really be scouting without some type of uniform? In Venturing the teens pick their own uniform but it does give the crew some type of visual identity when on activities. At a particular event two adults approached my teens to compliment them on how their uniforms looked, they responded with such pride it was great to see.

Stosh You make a very VALID point, training helps the scouter deliver the program it does not make them a good leader. There is no job where you can sit down and read a book about the theory of a program or function then go out there and be an expert in the field. The same is true for scout leader training, it is just a very basic framework to develop your program from, as you gain more experience you can fine tune it even more. To advocate that all you need to do is attend a handful of trainings, read a leaders book and follow what it says will make you a great leader and the program a great one is simply naive. What made my units successful was a lot of hard work and first hand experience, all my training provided a starting point from which the program grew and developed from a variety of experiences over time, not from the pages in a book. I would question the quality of any units program using a one size fits all approach. Our youth deserve so much more.

Well I just read pg 83, par 3-5 and it does state, " there is first a skippers conference then the application is forwarded to the ship's bridge of review made up of members from the ships quarterdeck and the ship committee." "If the badge is quartermaster or eagle the application must be approved also by by the ship committee and the district or council advancement committee before it is sent on to National." We do something similiar in our crew, officers and crew committee members serve on review boards together.

Brent you do make a valid point about Teddy Roosevelt who developed the national park system during his tenure, but Teddy was not really a typical Republican was he. The NPS has also been victimized by the appointments of some really poor superintentdants by some even less knowledgeable Secretaries of the Interior during Republican administrations who sought to exploit rather than conserve the resources of our parks. We in the NPS have seen the budgets and staffing cut to the point where most of the parks can not even maintain basic facilities for the public to be able to enjoy their beauty. Look at what has happened at Yosemite over the last twenty years, it is a real tragedy that the public will continue to be denied access to more and more spots in our parks because of the low priority our parks have become. Bob, This is not a Republican or Democratic issue, this is a national issue for all the people and we are losing the battle to preserve our parks for future generations. WE ARE ALL TO BLAME! Do we want to save these wilderness areas or watch them become full of oil rigs and mining operations, that is the real issue, and it is going to take a real visionary to save these parks which are such a vital part of our American Heritage before it is too late. Your friends work for a state park not the NPS that is a local level issue not a national one isn't it, but it does not surprise me that state parks are in the same mess we are. It will be a truly sad day for all of us in America if your grandchild someday asks about going to see Yellowstone or Yosemite, etc. and you had to explain to them that the government and the people didn't care enough to save our parks.

I haved worked for the National Park Service for over twenty years now and when I read an ignorant and incorrect statement like Bob White made it really tees me off. First of all Mr. White it has been historically as well as in current history that the Democratic presidents have done more to set aside land and preserve the parks. Bush right now has a plan in place that will ruin Yellowstone forever allowing open mining and drilling within the park boundaries. So Bob why don't you stick to scouting questions since you are obviously so ignorant about conservation and environmental issues. The arrogance of your answers in these forums have sure been an e-annoyance to me and in spite of what a few cronies of yours in here think your approach to scouting is outdated. This is probably because you have been an inactive scouter for so many years like a few others in here, and are out of touch with the reality of scouting today as many of your replies would seem to confirm.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

I was just wondering if any of you Venturing Crews out there have selected the positions of Crew Historian, Crew Aide, Crew Quartermaster yet? Personally I think they are a little too Boy scout oriented for a venturing crew but I would love to hear other opinions. While there may be some benefits I do not want to see our crew become modeled like a troop, that is not what venturing is supposed to be about. I can hear all you scoutmasters out there already moaning, lol.

IMHO I don't understand why FCFY should be shoved down new boys throats. I agree with allowing the opportunity for those overly motivated boys, but the last thing a new boy needs is pressure to achieve FC in the first year. I feel the same way about 13 or 14 yr old Eagles, I have yet to see one who was at the maturity or leadership potential for one acheiving that high honor. Now there may be exceptions to this but in 25 years of scouting I have yet to see one. SM's should be concentrating more on skill development and less on seeing how fast they can push the boys through the ranks. I feel that National has been tampering too much with the basic scout program way too much over the years much to the detriment of the program and the boys, and most of their ideas of late have been pretty lame and will continue to cost us membership. I feel that most professional scouters at National are so out of touch with the desires of todays youth that they are grasping at anything to try to save the numbers but don't have a clue where to start.

Well our venturing crew does not have a UC and no prospects in the future, our DE stopped by to drop off our charter and she admitted to knowing NOTHING about how this award or the paperwork involved, she is a real waste of time that one. So digging up what I could on how it is supposed to work and trying to deal with council turned out to be an exercise in futility. As a crew we decided the award is not important enough to worry about, even though we got the quality unit award all our past years, so we are taking a pass on it this year. When the DE comes screaming she didn't make quality district, after I stop laughing at her, maybe she will have learned something by then. I know the other crews in the council feel the same way, their members could care less about it. As one of the teens put it so well, "We don't need no stinkin patches."

As a Crew Advisor I have teens who love earning awards and one teen who has been in the crew four years and hasn't earned anything. He goes to every event and meeting and is having fun but doesn't believe in personal recognition. I know advancement is not a method in Venturing but the majority have earned the basic awards, so it does serve a purpose. If there were no advancement I think BSA would have to beef up and restructure the program, esp. in boy scouts and cubs. But teens 14+ would not be too upset if it went away, of course the counterpoint would be, "But we have always done it this way based on Baden Powells program." Besides, the supply division would lose too much revenue, lol, so don't expect National to change.

GW Maybe you should start your own scout group and call it the Golden Wingies, and use your own crazy program. After all you seem to think you know more than Baden Powell, Dan Beard, and Bill Hillcourt et al combined. Your emblem could be a pair of golden wings going up in smoke much like your program would. Either get in line with the current program or start your own, you can't have it both ways. And for pete sake keep your erroneous nonsense to yourself. Gee, I just lowered myself to Wingies level, Mea Culpea.

Gold Winger I think some of your sarcastic replies to Beavah are both untrue and unfounded. IMHO you come across as some sort of prima donna scouter, however your comments seem to portray an almost rude, un scoutlike attitude and a poor or simplistic understanding of scouting. So lighten up please. Beavah and emb21's scenarios about how a proper crew should run are right on target. I like Beavah's comment about ex boy scout leaders needing to be reprogrammed before doing a Venturing program is so true. In my area almost every crew failure in their first year or two was due to the crew being run by an ex scoutmaster like a boy scout troop, or more like a boot camp in some instances. These guys then actually wondered why girls were not interested in joining their crews,and I had to hold back my laughter. Thank God all of those crews here are now gone. As a former ASM and SM for 10 years and for the past five years as a Crew Advisor I know what makes for a successful troop and crew and they are two very different programs which require very different leadership styles.

I agree with the rest here there are no details to make or draw any conclusions. I always get suspicious when two people are involved in a pack, troop and a crew all at the same time, where are the other adults in these units? It sounds like this could be an example of some rogue units being run outside of BSA regulations and the council taking the necessary action for the safety of the youth involved. Even if the OA was using improper language, which I seriously doubt, it is hardly something to file a lawsuit over. SCOUTER30 I think this sounds like a fabricated story on your part, you convinently leave out details and has all the makings of a person seriously seeking attention. If this story is true from what you have presented then I would have to side with the council. Sorry but you asked for opinions.

I agree with others here that the unit is only as religious as the leadership allows it to be. I don't know when religion all of a sudden became a dirty word. In the units I have and am now serving we find a way to integrate the concept of a belief in a supreme creator into our outings and events without shoving any particular denominations doctrine down their throats. Over 60% of the youth in my crew have earned their own faiths religious award and I usually can get a priest, rabbi or minister to present them to the youth in a very special ecumenical ceremony, and there have been absolutely NOT ONE complaint from a parent, CO or any other group in over 5 years over our methodology in incorporating religion into our program. Additionally there is no pressure placed on any youth to earn their religious award, it is an individual decision. So there Merlyn it can work if done with mutual respect for each others rights and beliefs.

While I think that the BSA could easily stand on its own without the WOSM I don't think that is really what they want to happen nor is it in their best interest given the idea of scouting being a worldwide brotherhood. The BSA would look like the bad guy pushing its weight around to the eyes of the rest of the world. It is more of a posturing gesture than anything else right now, however if they do carry out the threat then I feel the BSA's reputation would be greatly diminished with the rest of the world. Either way its a no win situation for all parties concerned.

eoleson I agree with Brent's statement 100%, almost all boys are very reluctant to discuss sexuality matters with their parents, teachers, and strangers. If you are a scoutmaster the BSA obligates you to at least listen to the boy and at least help get him to someone who can help. This issue is included in the SM handbook and other BSA publications for a reason, and if handled incorrectly or ignored by you could create some lasting damage in the development of that youth. If the boy comes to you it is because he feels confident that you are the one whose advice is wise and will help guide him. It is a sacred trust and you should treat it as such learn to listen and not prejudge.

Goldwinger First, Congrats on taking one of the least popular volunteer jobs in scouting, it is not an easy one. I think Beavah was trying to tell you that the unit has to first know you as well as trust you before they will respect you and listen to your advice. From what I read you seem to be approaching them with a police mentality do it my way or else, instead of hey guys I have a lot of scouting experience under my belt which I would love to share with you which will make your pack a stronger unit with a great program that will attract a lot of boys. After they accept you then you can start the fine tuning process, but if you push too hard too fast they will basically tell you to get lost. Honey always work better than vinegar in getting someone on your side. Just my 2 cents worth, Good Luck.

My feeling is that this award no longer serves any real purpose other than making the DE and council look like they know what they are doing when in fact most of them haven't got a clue. Service quality is way down, as are the numbers, no council deserves a quality award. It is time to scrap the whole damn award and let the units concentrate on what really is important, giving a great program, and serving the needs of the youth.

I think the whole idea of a 1st class scout earning rank and merit badges was conceived by National as a way to help boys who left a troop at 13 or so and are now coming back at 16 to scouting but feels he is too mature for a troop made up mainly 11-13 year old boys. I myself wonder as a former SM and a Venturing advisor the logic in that system, and I find dual registration in both a troop and a crew kinda like burning a candle at both ends, it isn't a well thought out idea, he will either be a great troop member and a lousy crew member or vice versa. I agree with Beav, Venturing crews should only do Venturing advancement and activities, the program has plenty to offer on its own, if the crew is run right. All the crew members should work on the activities and advancement. I just wish National would wake up and correct this error in programming sooner than later.

ED I am beginning to see that Merlyns opinion of how you "can''t seem to learn anything" is even more accurate than I ever imagined. What a horrible example to set for your scouts. I am through debating such foolish nonsense with you, Brent and some of the other posters who so obviously lack any kind of real education or even basic common sense. Skeptic you are so right in your comments. It really saddens me that these kind of people are leaders in scouting. The only "Inconvenient Lie" here is what is posted by Brent, ED, funscout, and a few others. It really makes me wonder about the future of scouting with leaders such as these. So have at it gentleman I am through wasting my time on this thread.

Brent Your poor, faulty logic combined with your seriously flawed understanding of this entire topic would be humorous if it wasn''t so sad and tragic. You and funscout and ED are in a serious need of a reality check. Once again these were not Al Gores personal theories but those of some very prominent award winning scientists, why don''t you try reading the book. Your critizing of the Nobel Prize smacks of the isolationist rhetoric spouted prior to WWI, it was ridiculous then and even more absurd today, so grow up we live in a global society and that is a reality, get used to it. Trevorum, I agree with you, I never cease to be amazed by some of the illogical postings I read in here.

funscout you still miss the point, Gore never stated this was his theory rather it was the concensus of a number of scientists who have been studying this issue for decades, it IS NOT his own theory, otherwise I would agree with you. Gore has been studying with these guys for years and the first to compile all their studies into one volume written for the layman instead of scientists as they have been in the past. People need to wake up to this very real and serious problem and not try to hide their ignorance behind political banner waving as some in this thread have done.

funscout and Brent you both falsely accuse others of not looking at both sides when both of you just shove the GOP bull at everyone else. If GW had come up with the concept you would both be patting yourselves on the back in support of it, of course we all know the possibility of GW ever being that articulate about anything, a big ZERO. Beavah made some excellent points but both of you are too prejudice to try and see both sides. Brent and funscout if you ever took any physical science in college you would have learned that changing wind patterns alone could not cause the damage that we are seeing now, try watching NOVA instead of the WWE once in awhile you might learn a thing or two. If Gore has done nothing else he has brought this worldwide concern to the global community and only with a worldwide effort can this problem be solved. Kudos Al!

All this just goes to prove the old saying : "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Political corruption in America goes all the way back to some members of the Continental Congress who secretly tried to replace Washington during the Revolutionary War, and Thomas Jefferson who covertly tried to undermine John Adams presidency with untrue rumors and inneuendos. Politics and Corruption just seem to go hand in hand.

Man, Eamonn it sounds like your council really is in trouble. The DE does all the school presentations around our area as well, one reason is they usually have a much easier time getting into the schools because they represent the whole council not just one unit and schools give them easier access because of their professional status. The other reason is as already pointed out their schedule allows them the time to do the talks, which are part of their recruitment job duties anyway. Our DE's even come to the kickoffs to answer questions about what services the council provides to the unit.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

I agree with John I kept my sash as well,I also added on my rank, office, and council patches, etc. So it is like my little shrine to my scouting experience. I take it out once in a while to show my kids, and when my crew asks to see the old historic relic. It brings back some great memories, gee I guess that means I am getting old. Oh, and by all means wear it the BOR.(This message has been edited by RangerT)