Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Time for da monthly review of the role of a board or committee chairman. A board or committee chairman does not sign documents for himself/herself, nor are they ordinarily empowered to act on their own. When they sign, they are signing as the designated representative of the board or committee, certifying The Committee's approval. As such, there is no unique personal liability for the chair, unless the chair fraudulently misrepresents the position of the board/committee or substitutes his/her own judgment without board/committee approval. Of course in a BSA/NFP context, the actions of committee/board members are generally granted statutory immunity from all negligence claims, and da CO/BSA respond on their behalf, so da fear is silly, but it still can be real. So da question in this case is whether the committee approves of the travel arrangements. If they do, then the CC must sign, even if he objects... or resign his position. And perhaps that will help break him out of da mentality that Engineer61 describes. He's not responsible for anything other than taking da action authorized by the committee. Beavah

Yah, have to agree with Eagledad. It's hard to identify anything worse for kids than divorce. Loss of a parent to accident or illness is hard, but kids get through it. Divorce has awful effects. Now, where in da chain is the problem? Darned if I know. Is it folks who don't understand what marriage is to begin with? Yah, see that. Is it folks who don't stick it out through the tough times? Yah, see that a lot. What's odd to me is that folks are gettin' married later and doin' worse at it. Yeh would think we'd be more mature. Generally speakin' all forms of "sin" have consequences, eh? They have consequences for the person makin' the bad choice, and in turn have consequences for all the other folks around 'em, and in turn for the folks around them, all the way out to consequences for da nation and world. The bible tells us "only God can forgive sins" largely because only God can see the true depth and breadth of damage our poor choices do to all of creation. I'm not much of one for wailin' about it, though. I think as Christians yeh answer this stuff by being the evangelical counter-example, eh? Where folks are short on commitment, yeh don't judge 'em. Yeh step up and show extraordinary love and commitment. Where folks are short on self-restraint, yeh try to do your best to be an example of great restraint. Judging others is a failing of Kindness that can be a worse sin, eh? Our job is to struggle with our own weaknesses, remove da logs from our own eyes, so that we can be the example and guide and friend to others that they need. Beavah

All 5 of them are 15 years (or more) old and they would take better care of me than I could ever provide for them. Literally, they would be no inconvenience at all. We're talking about guys that have all slept on the ground at Philmont. Da concern for two deep is not for the lads as much as it is for the adults, eh? Yeh can imagine scenarios where you'd put those boys in a bad spot. What if the adult had a medical issue (heart attack)? What if a lad had a sudden medical issue (appendicitis? compound fracture falling down da airport escalator?) that required the adult to accompany him to the hospital? The reason for two deep is to have a second adult when one adult gets taken out by somethin' like that. Of course, yeh can dream up worst-case scenarios all night long, eh? I can think of ones where two-deep would be completely insufficient. Have even seen a couple. There's a balance to be struck here, and if we're honest about it quite a few adults wouldn't cope well with da above scenarios. But I think in approachin' the thing as grown-ups, you do well to acknowledge where there's a reasonable point being made by the CC, just as yeh expect him to acknowledge when you're makin' reasonable points. Tone down the rhetoric, keep things on an even keel. Yeh all share a common interest in scouting and in doin' what's right, so sit down and talk in that vein. B

Yah, hmmmm.... This again illustrates da lengths to which someone who doesn't really understand da guidelines will go. I confess a part of me is with CalicoPenn and da newspaper solution. So, to be clear, the start and stop common departure stuff is a guideline for automobile transportation, eh? It was put into the guide at the time when we were discouraging "caravan" driving as an explanation of what to do instead of caravaning. It wasn't intended to be used or applied in the way the CC is. There are all kinds of situations one can imagine where it's appropriate to send an early crew or meet up at a destination. Now, in fairness, there are some reasons why yeh might not want an adult traveling solo with the boys for the first leg, eh? Planes don't always make their destination, for one reason or another. It's possible to miss a connection and be stuck overnight at a hub airport. The logistics of hooking back up can be difficult sometimes. So travelin' with two adults for the first leg of the trip, even if it's a simple leg, has some merit, and a scouter who is trip leader for a trip might choose not to accommodate a family special request that puts a potential burden on all the other group members. Yeh only need to get caught once in a situation where you're waitin' around with a whole group for 4+ hours for the people that "promised" they would be there on time to swear yeh won't do that again. That having been said, da role of a CC is one of service, eh? It's to support the program and gather the necessary resources to help the SM and the kids. If the CC imposes a higher burden, then he needs to find the resources to make the higher burden work. So if he doesn't feel that it's OK for the lads to take a plane flight with only one adult, then the fellow should purchase a round trip ticket for himself or someone else to accompany the group on the plane. As a CC, yeh break down barriers and provide resources to help a program run, yeh don't put up barriers. I think yeh need to sit down with the fellow and the two adult trip leaders and come to some understanding for this trip and for future trips. Don't expect the council or the national office to referee a playground squabble. Troop adults should act like, well, adults, eh? Beavah

I pulled da American Enterprise Institute stuff from this article in their journal: http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers If you're lookin' at charitable giving by age, yeh have to be careful, eh? Most of the stuff I've seen comes from government sources and is based in part on tax returns. That's bad stats for sure, eh? Guaranteed to underestimate the gifts of the young (who are the least likely to itemize and declare charitable contributions on their taxes), and da least likely to be in stable work positions from which to answer Bureau of Labor Statistics or other pollster questionnaires. I think it's also quite natural for young folks who are strugglin' to pay what have become outrageous costs for education, and who are also tryin' to save up for a house or to start a family or try to build an education fund for their kids to give less. In a lot of ways, our own family is our first charitable obligation, eh? Beavah

We've got one sage who has written in 5,815 times over a six year span. Yah, hmmm.... I reckon that makes the fellow more long-winded than sagacious. Or maybe he's just stuck inside too long durin' northern winters. And what's with da dogs anyway? We've got enough Beavers and Bobwhites and Eagles and Antelope and whatnot without lettin' the canine patrol in. I think there's probably truth to da leaders are leaders notion, be they dogs or monkeys. Any gatherin' of scouters who don't know each other well it takes a while to get past da war stories and puffery. Just folks who are proud of their programs is all. They take ownership in what they do. I reckon there's also some truth to the notion that scout leaders are good-natured souls who want to share what they know rather than let someone else learn the same hard way they did. As a group, I don't think Scoutmasters are the sit-back don't-get-involved types. We're all roll-up-our-sleeves-and-fix-it types, eh? And we all love a good long late night discussion/argument around da campfire, too. Makes yeh think, gives yeh new perspectives even if yeh don't admit it at the time. For da rest, I think there's truth to typing skills being a big piece. I generate text in my real life at a blazin' rate. Just look in here when I need a break from that. Easy to whip off somethin' fast, typin' like I talk. Of course, that means I don't always get da tone right, even when I mean well. Fast writin' isn't crafted writin' if yeh know what I mean. It depends on the reader to see da old furry fellow behind the words tryin' to be a helpful friend and fellow scouter, eh? Not imagining an Alpha Dog administering a text-driven beat down. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

While I fully agree with JTS that election cycles are a unit decision, 6 months is what is recommened in BSA literature. Yah, hmmm.... Where? Da ScoutMaster Handbook says each troop sets its own, "though senior patrol leaders are usually chosen at six-to-twelve month intervals". For PL, it offers "most troops select patrol leaders twice a year, though a troop might want to hold elections more frequently." The PL Handbook and Scout Handbook say nuthin'. The SPL handbook says the same thing as the SM handbook for the SPL position - "usually a period of six to twelve months". Nowhere that I'm aware of do we actually recommend six months. Personally, I think da reason 6-months is "common" is mostly a product of units not understandin' the advancement method's role, and tying elections to the Life/Eagle advancement requirement timeframe. Beavah

Yah, not sure attracting photographers is a good reason to wear da uniform. After all, I reckon wearin' any funny clothes would attract photographers of one sort or another, eh? Dress your son in a toga and orange wig next time and I bet people take pictures too. Da real reason of course is to honor those who served in our nation's uniform by wearin' th uniform of our nation's scouting program. Totally appropriate. A salute to you and your lads for standin' tall. Beavah

But again I see out culture becoming more and more of a ' ME ME ME ME ME ME! Culture. Horse hockey. Turn off da boob tube and go out and smell da flowers. From the American Enterprise Institute: "Charitable giving has generally risen faster than the growth of the American economy for more than half a century. Correcting for inflation and population changes, GDP per person in America has risen over the past 50 years by about 150 percent, while charitable giving per person has risen by about 190 percent." In other words, the Americans of today are more generous with their money and less "Me me me!" than ever before. As for volunteerism, it's young folks who are just startin' out in work who quite naturally volunteer the least, followed by da old folks over 65. And if yeh correct for those in da armed forces serving abroad, I suspect the young people do better. That's right, our retirees are among the least generous in their volunteer time. So I think da evidence is that Americans as a whole are less "Me me me" than ever. In fact, we're a strong, generous, compassionate nation. Beavah

I disagree that the SM or any other adults should do anymore but unload their own gear and set up their own camp area. Its not their job to pitch in and help the patrols. Yah, all things in balance, eh? Let's think for a minute about if you were on a private campout, one that you'd organized. What would you think about a fellow who came along and only took care of his own stuff? Never helped yeh out, didn't pitch in for group tasks. I reckon you'd think da fellow was an arse. That he was failin' to demonstrate basic courtesy and good character. And can a fellow who isn't demonstrating basic courtesy and good character ever be a good example for boys? Now, you're also right to say that a fellow who started to take over and order you about when it was a trip you had set up and planned would also not be courteous. Might even be a worse offense. Not a good example either. Somewhere in da middle the porridge is just right, eh? Beavah

Hiya CubPackComChr, There's nuthin' particularly wrong with a fellow opening a bank account. And I think sometimes yeh run into volunteers who are pretty strong-willed, eh? They want to do things the way that they are comfortable with or understand or the way it fits into their schedule or whatever. Lots of times those folks are good, solid, dependable volunteers if yeh let 'em configure things the way they want. So yeh have to decide whether that's all that was goin' on, or whether yeh honestly feel that he took some money. If it's the former, then I think yeh chalk it up as a learning experience and perhaps re-think your policy of how yeh find volunteers, or yeh set up expectations for accounting and handlin' money clearly and well in advance. If it's the latter, then with your COR and IH yeh decide whether to remove him and involve law enforcement. Beavah

Yah, so in between da barbeque and da sports and such, I hope and expect everyone here took some time to reflect and salute da men and women who gave their country the last full measure of devotion. May God bless 'em and their families, and may we never forget. If your unit did somethin' to remember those brave folks this Memorial Day, why don't yeh share that with the group? It might give others good ideas for unit programs in da years to come. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... So I was lookin' at da fellow's slideshow in da previous thread, and he had one photo in it that just struck me. It's a SM sittin' in a camp chair just behind da troop trailer, ordering about boys who are unloadin' the trailer. Now I don't know if da fellow meant this photo as an example of what to do or what not to do, eh? For me it was a strong example of what not to do, and it points out how folks can take da old saw about sittin' in the camp chair and get it completely wrong. For the lads, the Scoutmaster is the cool dude, eh? The guy most boys look up to and want to be like. Do we really want to set da example that the coolest, most experienced guy in camp sits on his duff and orders his minions to do chores? Because I guarantee that's a lesson they'll learn and emulate as patrol leaders or older scouts. The goal of an older scout will be to sit on your duff and order younger kids about. Bet you've seen that in a troop or two. I know I have. To my mind, da SM has no more business than anyone being in a chair until all the work is done. Just like any group member, he should be an example by pitching in. If da SPL tells him it's his turn to scrub the latrine, he should scrub the latrine with gusto. If each patrol has things in hand, he should be a good adult patrol member and help get them squared away and then doin' something fun. If the adult patrol needs help, and the Flaming Monkeys are done, they should offer to help, eh? A Scout is Loyal and Helpful and Kind. And if da adults are done and the Flaming Monkeys need help, they should offer to pitch in for the same reason. Da Flaming Monkey PL might say he's got it covered, but the offer is the right example. Sittin' on your arse and havin' coffee while a neighboring patrol struggles is not. Da point of the "Easy Chair" bit is that the SM doesn't and shouldn't lead. That doesn't absolve him of the duty to be a good group member and follower; in fact, that servant-leadership is the best example, eh? All of us need to pitch in, all of us need to clean da latrine. And when it's time to sit and relax in da camp chair, we all do that together, too. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... still 54 pages of powerpoints. Well, I guess it's an improvement. I think da biggest step you could take toward makin' da length more reasonable is to decide this is a session about Patrol Method and NOT about youth leadership. You're gettin' 'em confused, and it's muddling your message. If yeh stick to patrol method yeh can drop all the bit about troop meetings and organizational charts and all the rest. Make it about Patrol meetings and organization. There's no need to even mention da SPL or PLC, eh? Or the SM. Make it just about Patrol Method. That'll save yeh at least 20 slides and help yeh focus on your real goal. Not that your youth leadership stuff isn't fine and dandy, but it's gettin' in the way here. Save it for a different presentation. Remember, the median troop size is 14 boys, eh? Barely enough for 2 patrols, where yeh don't even really need an SPL... but yeh do need patrol method. After yeh trim that stuff out, I think you'll see more clearly how to cut it down and focus it a bit more. Yeh don't want your session to be like that awful triangle graphic yeh have in it. Da one where da base of the pyramid (and the biggest part) is directing, like it's the thing yeh should be doin' the most of because it sets da foundation. That's not what yeh really want to convey, is it? Just like scoutmasterin', yeh have to decide whether your session is about you or about them... about you talkin' or them learning. So I'm back to where John-in-KC is, eh? Where are your learners' startin' at, and what makes a reasonable set of goals to accomplish in an hour? Yeh seem to be a by-the-book sort, eh? So why don't yeh try EDGE. Can yeh find a way in your time slot to not only Explain, but Demonstrate, Guide, and Enable your learners? Yeh know, walk the walk. That would be my big advice. Drop the youth leadership stuff to focus on patrol method, cut da directing/explaing down to 10-15 slides and no more than 15 minutes. Then use da rest of the time to use da other skills you were taught in Trainer's EDGE. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... I'm always glad when volunteers take on tasks and such. Are yeh doin' this for your ticket, bnelon44? Might I suggest that a 65 page powerpoint presentation replete with organizational charts and the like would have given ol' Greenbar Bill a month's worth of indigestion? I don't reckon it needs to be that hard, eh? And I'm also not sure yeh can get adults to understandin' a fun game by sittin' 'em down to such a long lecture. Perhaps yeh might approach your ticket item in a different way. How about thinkin' up a fun 1-2 hour game or simulation to help adults grasp the patrol method? Or since yeh apparently have enough time to talk through that number of slides, how about a sequence of challenges? Sorta like a mini version of da old WB? Yeh might even find that some of da things in your stuff don't work as well as you'd expect when yeh try 'em out, eh? Like perhaps if yeh let 'em come up with their own organization, yeh might find it works differently than if yeh give 'em a "troop organizational chart" that they have to comply with. Or yeh might give da group a challengin' task that they're not familiar with and only one "Troop Guide", and compare that with a challenging task where a few are good at it, a few are familiar with it, and a few are new to it. Just some thoughts. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Possible scenario for sasha... School trip to museum. Boy decides to go to restroom right when everyone else is leaving. School chaperone botches the count because two kids were moving around while engaged in a plastic dinosaur fight. Boy left at museum. No women with strollers. Boy exits museum and wanders several blocks of the city looking for woman with stroller. Eventually finds friendly security guard on lunch break who he thinks is a policeman. Boy doesn't know address, doesn't know phone number, doesn't know parents full name (which is different from his last name because of women's lib or divorce or whatever). Now what? Yeh can imagine any number of situations where it might be necessary for a lad to know enough information to be able to direct someone to contact/take him home. Beavah

Irritated Yoda would be. Use proper grammar you must. Matters word order it does, if small green muppet you are. Agree with sailingpj I do. Eagle project proposals often dreadful are.

Yah, hmmm.... To answer da original question, "No." I reckon it's not a very good question though, eh? Da proper question I figure is not what someone says, eh? Ain't whether they adhere to or deny some words or definitions here or there. Those sorts of arguments, like da date of Easter or Filiouque or whether Henry deserves a divorce or whether yeh can buy your way into heaven by good works or money are all just human frailty and noise. Da proper question is "What is your relationship with God in your heart?". The sacrifice he demands is a humble and contrite spirit. I've met folks who confessed Christendom who I reckon would have held the nails for da Romans if they had the chance, so hard is their heart. And I've met those who are of no confession whom I have no doubt would be the thief who calls an innocent man an innocent man, and is told "this day you shall be with me in Paradise." Faith saves, but only faith of the heart, not of the lips. Beavah

Yah, sure, I get da poetic license thing. I still think da concept puts kids at risk. If a kid is scared, lost, or otherwise in danger they should be taught to approach anyone and everyone for help. The dad who doesn't have a stroller will help. The high school scout will help, as will ds college student or young professional. The grandfather on his way from a haircut will help; so will the fellow askin' for signatures on a political petition, so will the homeless vet on the street corner. Da Catholics will help, as will the Jews, as will da Muslims, as will da atheists. Stranger danger is nuthin' but the same insane bunker mentality of da folks who dig themselves survival caves out in the woods and stockpile weapons and foodstuffs. It does a disservice to kids and puts 'em at risk for predators, who count on da fact that kids have been taught not to ask for help. A kid who needs help should learn to just ask for help, period. Didn't mean to hijack, though. . Da kids who surprise me are the ones who by boy scout age don't know how to dress themselves without help. You know the ones I mean... who can't put on jacket when it's cold or a raincoat when it's raining if mom isn't there to tell 'em to. Also the ones who by boy scout age don't know how to ride a bike. Beavah

They knew they should find a policeman (or a mommy with a stroller is a good bet, too, I told them). Yah, hmmmm.... side comment here, since this is just one of my pet peeves. A child who is lost or in trouble should go to ANYONE for help. ANYONE!! Da child needs help, eh? He or she should not be taught that when you need help you have to run around lost and scared until you happen to find a policeman or a woman with a stroller. It's naught but an act of gross prejudice to believe that a man will be any less willing or capable of helping a child in need. Beavah

Yah, what Eamonn said! Folks who want to take cubs down Class V rapids in open canoes without PFDs aren't affected by any regulations since they're not reading 'em anyways. Besides, we all know they're a fiction. Really, da issue is with those who lack experience. Experienced folks behave da way Eamonn does, eh? Yeh understand how kids behave and how an activity works and yeh just apply your experience to keep it safe. Inexperienced folks are apt to do one of two things. On the one hand, they may just launch without understanding the risks (usually because they've done it themselves without kids and don't realize kids are different, or they've done it before but don't recognize conditions are different, or they have alcohol or testosterone poisoning). On the other hand, they may just prohibit things because they don't understand da real risks. In scouting yeh see both, but da latter seem to be far more common, eh? Just prohibiting, restricting, or overregulating because of fear of somethin' that they don't understand. Often MCs and district folks do this more than SMs. Sometimes Irving making a general rule without considering local differences. Sometimes it's just irrational fear, like laser tag. I think that's what Cricket is talkin' about. Beavah

What it sounds like what I will need to do is to help him find a climbing instructor course that will meet this criteria. Yep, if you're happy with da paperwork minimum. Easiest way for da fellow to do that is to take a BSA climbing instructor course from a climbing director at a neighboring council. That's da fastest to paperwork minimum, but it's a bit like nolesrule says, eh? That doesn't necessarily get yeh to what's safe. Just like "experienced" canoeists, I've met all kinds of "experienced" climbers, eh? The fellow may be great, or not. Da NY climbing guide requirements in your state that josryan linked to might be worth takin' a look at or askin' him about. They expect: 3 years of climbing experience, averaging 30 days of climbing per year for the most recent 3 years, and including 10 documented multi pitch lead climbs. Or, for top rope only, 60 days of documented outdoor top roping, at least 10 days in previous year, plus a full climbing instructor course. B

I confess I like weather. One of da reasons I go out camping is just to experience weather. It's fun and fascinating. It's still fun and fascinatin' for kids, too, until "ewww, it's icky!" adults beat it out of 'em. Skin is waterproof. It also comes with nature's best form of air conditioning (aka "sweat"). Yeh can add a bit of artificial fur or feathers and be perfectly happy below zero. And as this week demonstrated, whether you're inside or out it ain't goin' to matter much when the tornado hits, the lightning strikes, da river overflows its banks or the avalanche comes down the hill. When the Big Bad happens, the differences in odds are just that, eh? Differences in odds. Playin' dice with acts of God. Knew a family some years back that died in a house fire from the lightning hit. They'd have been better off outside. Da Scouts who were killed in Iowa were those that sheltered indoors. And how do yeh guard against the lad out east who was killed by a lightning strike out of the blue that originated 18 miles away? Spendin' too much time and effort on very low probability act-of-God events will just give yeh ulcers. And along da way, yeh might miss the wonder and awe and delight of the Great Scoutmaster's special gift to scouts: Weather. Beavah

As per Safe Scouting it is snow, ice, lead climbing or canyoneering that involves instructor training from a nationally recognized organization. Yah, couldn't figure out where josryan got this, eh? Seems like da current version of G2SS has offloaded most of the climbing stuff to the Climb on Safely pages/training, so it's not in G2SS anymore. That means someone like josryan can look at G2SS and come to the conclusion that only ice climbing and lead climbing require instructor training. That's very misleading! They should probably move all of the instructor training stuff to a separate document rather than leaving just that one little bit about ice and lead climbing. Josryan, what you're lookin' for is point number 2 located here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Resources/Climb%20On%20Safely.aspx B

Another fiction is that Scouting has 100 pages of rules and regulations. I think my old copy of the Rules & Regulations of the BSA is only about 26 pages, eh? But that's not what we're talkin' about here. We're talkin' about the various guidebooks that are treated as regulations by the folks CricketEagle is commenting on. For example, I count 89 page links in da online G2SS. Some of da forms of course are multiple print pages. But if yeh look at the print version it's only 65 print pages. Then yeh dig a bit further and yeh realize that it references a variety of other documents and resources. SSD/SA, Aquatics Supervision: Swimming and Aquatics Supervision: Paddle Craft and Cub Scout Aquatics Supervisor and Snorkeling Safety and BALOO and Project COPE and Climbing/Rappeling National Standards and a link to additional caving guidance. Then yeh add in other things that get treated as regulations by some folks, like da Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures or the Insignia Guide (30-some and 50-some pages respectively). Then yeh get councils that generate local rules or paperwork. Yep, I agree. 100 pages is a fiction. We have way more than that, even before we get to da folks who just make stuff up. Beavah