Beavah

They had sent the message to the SM, other leaders within the troop, the district and council advancement chairs. Yah, well. If only everybody had a modern notion of email courtesy. How many times do we see people who thoughtlessly Reply to All? Don't sweat the small stuff. Your CC overreacts at/on email. If otherwise da fellow is a decent CC then just chalk it up to someone who isn't used to email or types with an annoyin' local accent. Focus on the kids, and let the adult stuff just glide by. Beavah

and yes, there is such a word as "partial" in BSA advancement language. Rumors and rumors. Da thing has been issued, recalled, and revised over and over again. If da BSA is goin' to officially sanction da notion of a "partial" MB that would be a big change in da philosophy and policy of the MB program which would to my mind require approval beyond da program office. It would also contradict what yeh said earlier in the same paragraph, eh? Yeh don't and shouldn't earn a MB by goin' from counselor to counselor accumulating a requirement signoff here and another one there. That has no merit or value. We allow it for T-2-1 because the fellow who signs off on cooking might not have the skills to sign off on swimming or first aid. But that doesn't apply in da case of a merit badge counselor. Still, it seems there's no aspect of da advancement method the program office on its own doesn't try to water down with each new proclamation, no matter what da tradition, program effectiveness, or official policy of the organization is. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Welcome to da forums, eh? Tempests in teapots happen a lot in scouting. I can't for da life of me figure out why. I think some adults take themselves and scouting too seriously, eh? Better to think of it as a kid's game. Gettin' all bent out of shape over some scouting thing or another is like gettin' all bent out of shape over a game of monopoly. There's nuthin' here that amounts to defamation in da legal sense, towerflower, so just let go of that. This is just a misunderstanding between friends. I'd do what ntrogt8r suggests, and just explain that all you were doing was trying to buy a spare badge that your boy already earned from a scout shop staffer who wasn't properly trained in their job. All the fellow needed to do was call up Scoutnet and your son's records to see he already had the badge to let you buy it. But some shops and some staffers start to take this stuff more seriously then the game it is too, eh? Beavah

IMHO any scoutmaster who thinks that it is perfectly fine for their scouts to spend their entire time at camp earning 5-6-7 MB's and doing nothing else is not only NOT looking out for the best interests of their boys but are just too dam* lazy to do their jobs. Camp is not a time for the adults to sit around on their asses swilling down coffee and coke all day long, as I have seen countless times. Yah, gotta agree with BadenP on this, eh? The magic of summer camp is what Eagle and desert describe. If yeh want to send your kid to summer school, send him to summer school. Don't punish his camp time by turnin' it in to school. B

Yah, Carole, welcome! You can tell the counselor it's just fine if he/she accepts the old work... if the counselor finds it acceptable of course. You can also tell your scout that it's OK if the new MB counselor does not accept his prior work. That's what happens when you procrastinate sometimes. In the BSA there's really no such thing as a "partial" merit badge. It doesn't work like rank advancement, where different people are assigned by the Scoutmaster who can test boys on different skills, causing separate signoffs by different people. A MB counseling session is a personal mentoring relationship with one "expert" in that one skill. Each MB counselor is expected by the BSA to verify him/herself that a boy has met all of the requirements. They may do that by taking old documentation from another counselor, or a phonecall from the old counselor, or even the word of the boy or another adult who was not a counselor but who saw the boy perform the skill. Or they may ask the boy questions to determine what he learned or make him demonstrate the skill again to them. Personally, since the point in most cases is for the boy to have learned and for the boy to benefit from the relationship with the counselor, I think most counselors should work with a lad and expect him to demonstrate all of the skills of the badge, as the BSA suggests. But for "task" type requirements like the 90-day expense report, I think most counselors would accept a task that was done before the lad started the badge with them, unless the boy really didn't understand/do the task properly. So yeh can tell the MBC that it's up to them, but that most counselors would work with the boy and accept prior work that was well done, and build from there. Beavah

There are only 8 uses of the word fun in the current GTSS. None that I can tell used in a manner which regulates it out of scouting. Hee hee.... Yah, OK, I just had to look. Not sure I have da current version of G2SS because these days there seems like there's a revision every other month, eh? But here goes. BSA self-funds the first million dollars. If a funnel is used, establish contact with the funnel and the opening in the tank. (really? no kiddin'? we have to give boaters directions on how to fuel a boat?) Always use a funnel to refuel a stove so you wont frost- bite your fingers by accidentally pouring fuel on them. again? Pour through a filter funnel. still more how to pour fuel directions Unit fund-raisers. Include these safety considerations when planning a unit fund-raiser; A Unit Fund-raising Permit must be obtained... [Don't] sell fireworks as a fund-raising or money-earning activity. All scouting functions ... should be conducted on a smoke-free basis. When fairly and impartially applied, rules do not interfere with fun. Rules for safety, plus common sense and good judgment, keep the fun from being inter- rupted by tragedy. When fairly and impartially applied, rules do not interfere with the fun. Rules for safety, plus common sense and good judg- ment, keep the fun from being interrupted by tragedy. yes, it's in there twice Every participant must be classified as a "swimmer" to participate in training for Kayaking BSA or to paddle a solo kayak at a Scouting function. Each caving group should function as a separate and distinct group. Fun and safe overnight trekking activities require compliance with Trek Safely by both adult and youth leaders. This was fun. So I count only five times da word "fun" is used for real, and four of 'em are in the same sentence. I think da repeated instructions on how to use a funnel to fill a gas tank are more common and amusin'. Who knew we had such a need to explain funnel use to da average scouter? Beavah

Yah, short ridge, I get that da common response to critique of over-regulation is the straw man of untrained overweight fools taking boys up Mt. Everest or some such. I just don't buy it. We're not talkin' real safety with all this stuff, eh? We're talkin' Safety Theater. Put in place various trappings people associate with safety. Make everybody go through da motions. Laser tag and paintball have a better safety record than scouting does, eh? We really haven't had a rash of people just throwin' kids into boats, just occasional folks who make errors in judgment with respect to da conditions or the capabilities of the group. Yeh can't fix errors in judgment with paperwork or policy prohibitions. And I reckon with just a bit of effort, yeh can figure out service-oriented ways of doin' necessary tasks at camp. Beavah

Yah, EarlVanDorn, welcome! I think yeh point to a weakness in the program that most of us who have been around a long time recognize. Makes me sad in a lot of way, because it really shortchanges the scouting experience of kids. It becomes about getting the badge, rather than about havin' some fun with an adult doing cool stuff together. The official BSA policy is that To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor. Group instruction and orientation are encouraged where special facilities and expert personnel make this most practical, or when Scouts are dependent on only a few counselors for assistance. However, this group experience should be followed by individual attention to each individual candidate's projects and his ability to fulfill all requirements. So it's OK, sometimes, to do some group sessions. If your district only has one fellow who can counsel Nuclear Science and a whole bunch of kids want to take it after seein' the plant in Japan melt down, then doin' a group orientation or some group instruction is fine... as long as the counselor then meets with each boy individually, eh? Not only to check to see if he can fulfill all the requirements, but to give him da maximum benefit of the counselor's knowledge and interest. Merit badges are meant to be mini-apprenticeships, not school classes. Now it's true that some lads come with prior skills. A boy can be on a swim team and be a strong swimmer and therefore knock off Swimming MB in an afternoon. He's already had the benefit of a bunch of adult mentoring and guidance in swimming, perhaps outside of scouts. That stuff can happen for many badges, in which case it's fine for a lad to just "test out" fairly quickly. But for most badges, a boy isn't goin' start with all the skills, eh? In that case, it's just plain wrong to pretend to do it in an hour and a half with a whole group. It's cheating the kids, which is the worst thing any adult can do in the scouting program shy of criminality. To my mind MB counselors who do that sort of thing should be ashamed of themselves. As a canoeing instructor, I'd be equally embarrassed by anyone who pretended to take a novice paddler up to the standard for Canoeing MB in an afternoon. Yeh just can't do that successfully, and more importantly why would yeh want to? It just isn't fun. To be a good mentoring relationship yeh want to go out paddling, do some instruction, have some fun, learn for real. As a bonus, it's much more rewarding as an adult than just running a class. Scoutin' shouldn't be school, or "presentations", or "workshops". It should be about a few kids who are in to fishing goin' out with some fly rods and an adult who ties his own flies. That's da real deal, eh? Everything else is just a poor imitation. Beavah

Yah, Buffalo, you're right, of course. One part for the counselor, one for the boy, one for the troop. But there are districts or councils that expect the troop to turn in its copy with an advancement report. Ostensibly to check signatures or somesuch, but that's a fool's errand in all but small districts with troops that never go to out-of-district events or camps. Mostly they box 'em and pitch 'em. Honestly, I've never found da things a very good record-keeping device, and as I've gotten older it's even harder with how small and cramped yeh have to write. I think the reason yeh see so many alternatives is because folks really want somethin' better. Beavah

Yah, LOL. ScoutSalute, MapleScouter! And welcome to da forums, eh? Sure by all means use us as a runnin' blog of your adventures in scoutin' and in leadership. Just be prepared for all kinds of opinions, thoughts, criticism, humor yeh can't figure out, and otherwise odd or obnoxious adult behavior. I had da same thought about a patrol of 17, but yeh seem to have it in hand, runnin' a sort of youth-run troop within a troop so to speak. That's good experience for yeh, and can be lots of fun, work, and pride for your patrol members. Eventually, perhaps, it will set yeh up for being SPL and perhaps thinkin' a bit differently about the structure, and that's OK. Or maybe everyone else will eventually join one of your sub-patrols and your patrol will become da troop. Resistance is futile... they will be assimilated. I'm with jblake on da summer camp notion, and I think it's an opportunity for creative leadership on your part. Propose that the two patrols who want camp B go to camp B, and da three who want A go to A. Volunteer your patrol to take on da coordination and signups for the Camp B guys. If you're really intrepid, have signups and commitments done (includin' two adults willing to go) so you can present the idea fully baked and shovel-ready. Adults tend as a group to think kids are too dumb to do anything on their own, especially here in da states. So just do it and present it, with some backup support from a "friendly" adult (preferably your SM). Gettin' people on board with your idea is part of da skills of leadership, and takes some figurin' out of each person. For the rest, proceed! Try stuff out, drop what doesn't work, keep what does. That's what scoutin' is about. I'd suggest addin' two things to your program, though. First, add in a feedback mechanism. Your patrol members need to have "safe" ways to give you feedback and criticism that you get to hear that isn't behind your back. You'll learn the most about leadership from that, if you can find a safe way to do it. Anonymous submissions on a website, askin' your sub-PLs for their honest opinion and respecting it no matter what they say, "Roses & Thorns" debriefs where yeh build a culture that encourages everyone to speak their mind. Second, add in an outside ideas pool. We can help, but I'd also consider findin' another troop or two in the area to visit occasionally or another scout at your school who is with a different troop or a friend in da Order of the Arrow who can give yeh ideas and perspective from outside your own troop and patrol. Troops are very different here in da U.S., and so yeh can learn a lot and get great ideas from just talkin' with or seeing other programs. Have, fun, keep us posted, and lest yeh get caught on the SAT take a moment to look up da definition and proper use of "permeated" . Beavah

Yah, I think Stosh has da right of it, eh? Yeh don't realize how bad it is until you're on the outside lookin' in. Go spend some time with international scouting. No med forms, no permission slips, no tour permits, no G2SS, no runnin' about worrying over constant adult supervision. Patrols allowed to camp, Sea Scouts routinely take boats out on their own in open seas, troops set up towers and monkey bridges and zip lines without clearance from da Army Corps of engineers, kids take trains across international borders on their own to camp. They get along fine. Heck, in some countries every scout carries a sheath knife. BSA summer camps IMHO are da worst. Yeh won't find another camp in all the land that spends the entire first day handling paperwork and having kids march from venue to venue to be lectured on rules and procedures. I heard one lad at a camp I visited exclaim "only at BSA camp can you sign up for sailing and not be allowed on the water in a boat until the 3rd day." We also seem to be inspection-happy. Inspect durin' the week, inspect before yeh leave, hurry up and wait for da inspectors to inspect. In an average scout camp in the land a troop can't have a weekend campout that runs through Sunday afternoon or evening because da staff has to be there to hover and inspect. Mostly, we do it to ourselves, eh? We voluntarily get all crazy and fearful about lawyers waiting in the bushes with subpoenas. We voluntarily restrict everyone anytime one person anywhere in the country does somethin' phenomenally stupid. We voluntarily whap people over da head with quotes of da rule du jour. It's like a group psychosis. And should anybody object or just choose not to voluntarily be a doofus, they're labeled "rogues", "rule-haters", "scout-haters", or huffily told they're not doin' "real" scouting. If they still don't knuckle under, they're threatened with fictional loss of insurance coverage or some such drivel. One need only look at threads here on Scouter.Com to see the pattern. Most international scouters who have had contact with official BSA folks think we're arrogant looney-tunes here in da U.S. Lots of other camp folks think we have an odd and not particularly service-oriented approach. This stuff grew up slowly so it's a bit like a frog bein' boiled, eh? It's hard for us to see it from inside other than in slowly eroding prestige and membership numbers. Da good news is there really aren't any lawyers hidin' in da bushes, eh? I happen to know they prefer country clubs with well stocked bars. And nobody from Irving is really goin' to come inspect your unit program. Yeh can make use of other camp facilities or roll your own like da fellow in the other thread. In short, yeh can choose not to volunteer for all da mindless procedural stuff and restrictions, and instead just volunteer for scoutin'. But it is gettin' harder. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, there's a difference between a national form and an official form, eh? There are all kinds of national forms or "nationally recognized forms." If yeh pick up da program booklets, you'll see a national form for meeting plans. Now does that mean that every troop has to use da form when planning meetings? Nah. Most don't. It's just a piece of program material. No different for blue cards. Some units use 'em, some don't. Some camps use 'em, some don't. They're an optional record-keeping tool. A few of the smaller districts/councils collect 'em, but most don't (or if they do they just box 'em and recycle 'em. ). As we continue in fits and starts down the road to modern electronic recordkeeping, I'm seein' less and less of blue cards in the field. That to my mind is a good thing. While some adults dearly love "official" forms and paperwork procedures, I've never seen it as being value-added for the boys. Beavah

What is an Eagle board to do? Act with courage and honor, and honestly assess "active" and scout spirit in the manner the organization that they represent expects. If a unit level EBOR, the troop committee members should assess "active" and "scout spirit" in a manner consistent with the goals, mission, and character of da Chartered Organization. If a district or council level EBOR, the board members should assess "active" and "scout spirit" in a manner consistent with the general goals, mission, and character of local scouting as described and expressed by the council member CORs and others. If a national review, the national office should assess "active" and "scout spirit" according to the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, in a manner which harmonizes with the Aims and Mission of Scouting. While it's a shame when someone else doesn't do their job and shortchanges kids or hurts da reputation of the program, that shouldn't change our willingness to do the right thing at whatever level of da program we serve. So just do what's right, eh? Hope that others do the same. And let da chips fall where they may. Of course if yeh want anything to change, I reckon sooner or later some enterprising young lad is goin' to publish a piece in a national media outlet with the title "How I got Eagle without really doing anything". Guaranteed that will be picked up by the wire services. Might even be an Oprah appearance. "Yeah, to be active I didn't have to do anything, just be registered." "Nope, never really did anything in a POR either, just made excuses about school and sports until I had the time in office done." "Just appeal it when your SM says No; National accepts anything." I expect that's the only thing that will get folks' attention at HQ, eh? But just seein' 'em scramble about would be worth da price of admission. Yeh might even suggest it to one of your more intrepid fellows. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

What I am really after is general documentation that shows how a CO "owns" the equipment/money of a BSA Unit. I know that Is there a site within scouting.org that has all this information. Yah, really? Good luck with that! Da BSA licenses program materials to community groups, eh? They really don't tell community groups how to run things or handle money. That's left to the community groups. If your boy did fundraising, did you report it as income? Did your son pay FICA? Did he have a valid work permit? If not, then it's not yours/his. He was donating his time to raise money for his troop, and the intent of the donors was that the money be used for the troop's scouting activity. It was never the boys' money, and giving it to the boys without paying the appropriate taxes and obtaining donors' permission would be illegal and unethical. The money is the troop's, and since da troop is just a youth program run by the Chartering Organization, the money is the CO's. In some scout units, fundraised money is never put in individual scout accounts. It's only used for general troop expenses. That to my mind is the most sane and sensible from an ethical and legal perspective. However, the troop can make the case that part of the mission of scouting is to teach children to budget and be responsible for money, to "pay their own way", etc. So they use individual scout accounts only as a mechanism for teaching. In other words, as part of their tax-exempt mission. That can be OK, eh? However, it's over the line if the boys can buy personal property with their scout account, and way over the line if they or their family ever get cash to keep. That's called "fundraising fraud". Hope that helps. Beavah

A brief conversation with my schoolmarm wife reveals that the boys spent in-office detention for threatening to kill another student (they just crossed over to Bear). They actually brought the bat to school.... There is a good chance they're already in the CPS system. I need to give the elementary guidance counselor a quick call. Yah, hmmmmm.... BluejacketScouter, I think yeh need to take a step back, eh? You're not just steppin' over the line, you're leaping over it. Yeh just admitted on a public forum that your wife broke the law by releasing confidential student record information to you outside of school, and now you're talkin' about tryin' to do the same with the school guidance counselor. We all care about kids, eh? And there are times when da folks in kids' lives need to share information for their well being. But it's important to approach such times with a real sense of care and professionalism. That isn't comin' across in your posts, mate. More like rumor and innuendo, perhaps even because the fellow liked the former Cubmaster who you did not. If da committee and the COR want to endorse him as a leader, that's their call. You can have your say in it, but don't be releasin' things that you shouldn't or spreadin' gossip. What you have described here would not be what I personally consider a reasonable suspicion of child abuse or neglect. Heck, it wouldn't even rise to poor parenting. Just poor paperwork and your somewhat odd suspicions about Benadryl. Some docs, BTW, do suggest Benadryl for youth with mild sleep problems because it's free of side effects and has a short half-life in the body. We've seen a few. So based on what you've reported here, I'd suggest that yeh take a step back and add a healthy dollop of "mind your own business" to your approach. But if yeh do have anything that rises to the level of reasonable suspicion of abuse or neglect by the parents, yeh don't talk to the school counselor, yeh don't talk to the Scout Executive or dig up dirt. Yeh call CPS to report your concern, and then you let it be. But if yeh do, be aware that there's no guarantee that the parent won't figure it out and pull the lads from scouting. Beavah

Yah, just depends, eh? A conviction for felony assault can come in all sorts of forms, eh? Some of 'em would raise a red flag especially if recent, others not so much. Could be not much more than beatin' up a fellow who took a swing at him back when he was 19, dependin' on who he beat up and what jurisdiction he did it in. I think he answers the BSA Application form honestly and attaches an explanation/description of the conviction and a copy of his court/release documents showin' that he paid his debt in full. Then it's to the CO, and then to the BSA. If the CO wants him, they should attach an additional note to that effect, sayin' they looked into the conviction and are comfortable that it no longer has a bearing on his suitability to serve as a youth leader. In such a case, by and large da BSA defers to the Chartered Organization. Beavah

Drivel notwithstanding, the reality is, if you deny a Scout/Venturer his Eagle based on "not being active enough", you will lose. Maybe yes, maybe no, I've seen 'em go every which way over da years. It doesn't matter. Your only obligation is to make sure you are honorable and do the right thing, eh? That you are the best example to all of the boys, and do your part to teach responsibility and citizenship. Yeh can't worry about da fact that other folks might not behave honorably or live up to their own standards. Da BSA can give an Eagle Scout award to a turnip if it wants. That doesn't mean you have to sign off on it or participate in such a thing. Each person should just do his/her own job, and not worry about whether or not someone else is doin' theirs. And the job of a CC and unit committee is to serve the Chartered Organization. From the Troop Committee Handbook: Your troop is "owned" by a chartered organization, which receives a national charter to use the Scouting program as a part of its youth work. ... Each chartered organization using the Scouting program provides a meeting place, selects a Scoutmaster, appoints a troop committee of at least three adults, and chooses a chartered organization representative. As the troop committee works on behalf of the chartered organization, your troop must be operated within the organization's policies. More to the point, da legal relationships are clear, and the BSA is consistent in all of its legal filings on the matter. The Chartered Organization, not the BSA, has vicarious liability for the actions of all unit leaders and unit committee members. They are agents of the Chartered Organization, not the BSA. Da Chartered Organization, not the BSA, "hires", "fires", and "supervises" its volunteers running its scouting program. Just like da manager of a McDonalds works for the franchise owner, not McDonald's Corp.; only in the case of the BSA it's closer to the BSA being an association rather than a franchiser. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... So I've got da same question as 5year, eh? Is the crew chartered to the same organization, so that the COR is the same? Otherwise, I'd have the COR of the crew call the Scout Executive and demand the Tour Plan be reinstated. If da COR is the same and the crew committee just got overruled by the COR without so much as a phone call, then I would expect the entire crew committee and leadership to approach the IH with their resignation. But this is what comes of adults who can't behave like adults, eh? Relationships are hurt, programs are hurt, kids are hurt. Rraffalo, I reckon RichardB is a smarter fellow than to get involved in your program's little pissing match. The proper way to approach this is probably with pistols at 10 paces. Honestly, everybody should look in the mirror and be ashamed of themselves, and the youth crew leader for Sea Base should stand up at the next committee meeting and explain the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law to everyone and insist that they get training and demonstrate scout spirit in their daily life. No one should be renewed on the charter unless the PLC signs off on him/her for showing scout spirit. If only. If it keeps up, though, I reckon the district or council commissioner should sit down with the IH, to clarify the Chartered Org's expectations of the COR, and then with the committee, to clarify the committee's instructions to the CC and get everyone back on the same page with a common vision and commitment. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

I'd be willing to wager a donut that sometime in the past, the unit had a really poor, boring program, and the adults at the time put such a rule in place because they weren't capable of figuring out a better way to improve attendance. I'd take that there wager any day of da week and twice on Sunday. I think it's a complete fiction. If yeh work with a lot of units, yeh learn that by and large da ones that have formal or informal attendance expectations are very active, youth-run units that do a variety of activities. If you're runnin' whitewater trips, there are attendance expectations for pre-trips. If the youth are leadin', then they're held accountable by their fellow youth leaders and adults for not lettin' their guys down. If the youth are leading, then they usually get very frustrated by peers who are "no shows", especially ones who show for the game night but not da meeting or service project or troop trailer cleaning. Da units who don't set expectations are either running same-old-same-old car camping trips where attendance doesn't matter, or are adult-run so youth participation doesn't matter. As long as lads get their badges on schedule, the parents are happy and supportive. I just can't see an American Legion laying down a rule... Ah, but yeh missed the point, eh? I think if you asked anyone from the Legion about the group's values and what they want to teach kids, I'd guess that one of the things they'd all agree with is that citizenship is a commitment. It starts by showin' up. Showin' up to vote. Showin' up to do your duty in uniform. I don't know many Legion fellows who have much patience for those who made excuses or went other places to avoid doing their duty. I don't know any who would give such folks an award. So a unit committee for an American Legion unit might find it well and proper, and consistent with da Chartered Organization's goals and values to set expectations on participation beyond just signing up. And since they work for and on behalf of the Legion, they must support da Legion's goals and values in how they conduct what is in reality the Legion's youth program. If a Scout isn't meeting the CO's/Unit's policies, you either simply not recharter them, or ask them to find a unit they'll be a better fit for. Yah, this is an option, eh? And one a unit might take when they've given up on a lad (or more likely, given up on the lad's parents ). Problem is, it's not good Scouting. In Scouting, when kids don't succeed, we don't throw them out. Nor do we give them awards. We mentor and coach and encourage 'em to try again. So the true, proper scouting approach would be not to award advancement and to use it as a teaching moment to help a lad grow. Not show him to the door. Remember, no BSA program material can alter or subtract from the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, and volunteers agree to abide by the Rules & Regulations, not by the various program guides. Da Rules & Regulations are pretty clear about the definition of "active", and additionally specify that when readin' da program guides they must be interpreted in a manner that harmonizes with the Aims of the BSA to teach character, fitness, and citizenship. So in their duty to da Chartered Organization and to the BSA, unit committees and unit leaders must interpret the advancement materials in the way that they feel best teaches character and citizenship. That's what they promised, On their Honor... Beavah

If that's not the case, daveinWA, and your attendance rules were handed down from the chartered org, let us know. Nah, that's not the point, eh? The point is what is the Chartered Organization's mission? It's goals and values? Da CC is obligated to support and help administer the scoutin' program consistent with those, eh? If the Committee feels that getting awards for being absent isn't consistent with the CO's goals and values, then it shouldn't authorize that. Or if da crew committee feels that the youth should set the expectations and the youth don't feel that earning an award while absent is appropriate, then that shouldn't be authorized for advancement in the crew. The CO doesn't need to (and shouldn't) micromanage, eh? The CC and Committee should live up to the CO's expectations and values without needin' someone to tell 'em how to handle every little thing. I can't tell what daveinWA is thinkin' or dealin' with based on his posts. As close as I can figure, they're runnin' a crew sort of like a Venture Patrol (which is an OK if somewhat odd thing to do), so the CO and committee might have a genuine interest in cross-program coordination and expectations.... like expecting the Crew members to contribute to the troop instruction/leadership. I think he wants to make some real expectations on commitment and service clear. There are ways to do that. Simplest for him might be to say that their crew does not offer Boy Scouting advancement. So lads who want to earn Star, Life, or Eagle have to stay active in the troop. That's all on da programmatic side, though, eh? On the practical side for this particular lad, I think yeh do as qwazse suggests and sit with the lad and have hard conversations about what da Scout Oath and Law really mean in terms of one's day to day life within the program. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

I think shortridge has the right of this. In da BSA camp program, the camp staff should not be signing off on T-2-1 requirements. That's not their role, that's the role of the unit leaders. Their role is to assist the unit program by teaching. A Scout Learns, eh? That's what they're doin', helping a scout learn. A Scout is Tested is the province of the Scoutmaster and his designees. Any camp that has its staff signin' off on T-2-1 isn't followin' the real BSA program recommendations. Sadly, in many cases such camps are respondin' to the requests and desires of their customers. Beavah

Sorry, BadenP, yeh have to go back to your training. The entire troop committee works for and on behalf of the Chartered Organization, not the BSA. Right there in the Troop Committee Guidebook, and of course a vital piece of da whole Chartered Organization relationship. It's important for people to understand and stick to their roles, eh? It helps avoid unnecessary conflicts. The CC works for the CO, and is responsible for supportin' the CO's mission and goals for the unit program. The National Program Committee (or whatever it's been restructured into these days) works for the BSA and therefore is bound by the Rules and Regulations. It sets the BSA program materials. It can't tell Chartered Organizations or their volunteers what to do, it doesn't have that authority. It can't legitimately redefine "active" because that is spelled out in da Rules & Regulations, and those can only be changed by the National Executive Board. It can, however, publish other works and issue BSA awards even over the objection of the Chartered Organization; it has been authorized to do that by the National Council. So if everybody does their jobs, the unit volunteers teach character and values accordin' to the mission of the Chartered Organization. Da council volunteers adhere to the direction given by the council members and board. The national staff and volunteers adhere to the Rules & Regulations and the BSA's goals of developing character, fitness, and citizenship. Nobody tries to tell anybody else what they can or can't do, they just do their own jobs. In this case, CalicoPenn has the right of it. The troop does its job and the crew does its job. If the lad applies for Eagle in the Crew, he has to fulfill the crew's expectations for "active" and for service in a position of responsibility, then the Crew Advisor does the conference and the Crew Committee approves his Eagle application (and conducts his EBOR if done at the unit level). No reason for the troop to be involved or upset, it's not their business to tell the crew what to do. No reason for the Crew Committee to consider the lad's participation in the troop, it's not relevant. If the lad applies for Eagle in the Troop, he should have fulfilled the troop's expectations and da requirements for Eagle in the troop, in which case it's none of the crew's business. There's no reason the troop committee should consider the boy's participation in the Crew, it's not relevant. If they don't feel a lad has been active then they don't approve that, or just do what FScouter suggested and remove the kid from the troop entirely. But the lad can still choose to appeal, and then the national organization can decide to give the lad its award, because after all it owns the award. And in turn, if da national organization hands out Eagles for just bein' registered, then employers and colleges and families and chartered organizations can choose not to accord Eagle Scout much value (which we increasingly see). No reason for any drama, hard feelings, or confusion. Each person just does his own job without worryin' about whatever anybody else is doin'. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Our mission is to help boys make ethical choices in their lives, and I don't think demonstrating silly paperwork ploys to skirt the intent of rules and policies is very ethical. You're entitled to your opinion of course. Da rest of the world calls these "silly paperwork ploys" the Free Market. If GSUSA won't let you do it because they'd rather girls spend time in malls and hair salons, do it as a BSA Venturing Crew. If da Friends of Bureaucratic Restrictions chartered organization says "no", go with the local Catholic unit that is more understandin' of the practical realities of families. We choose to join organizations because they provide us a benefit and a service, eh? It's not like joining a religious order where we take vows of stability and obedience for life. At the point when they're not offerin' the best service, we're free to get da service from someone else in the market. Now, as ScoutNut points out, there is some risk here, eh? Adults don't always act like mature and understandin' human beings. So rather than laughing and taking a lesson to heart, da COR could throw a fit and simply remove da various adults responsible from all positions with the troop. Which in turn weakens the troop, destroys more relationships, hurts more boys, etc. This is why I characterized rrafalo's approach as "juvenile" as well, since it plays into that silly tit-for-tat nonsense which can end up doin' more harm than good. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Oh puhlease.... Da reason for expatriation is that da U.S. has become more aggressive about goin' after folks with offshore bank accounts who aren't payin' taxes. So rather than man up and pay their share like everyone else they want to move to the Caymans or one of da other banking havens. It's just a sophisticated form of tax evasion, eh? Nuthin' but a criminal activity. I remember when folks I knew used to go to the Caymans once a month with $9,999.99 in cash, just below the reportin' requirement, to feed offshore bank accounts and avoid paying taxes. Income taxes are the lowest they've been since before WW2. Before demographic changes. Before Medicare. Before da highway system. Before multiple simultaneous foreign wars. Before rural electrification. Before clean water and inspected food. We're not taxing anybody to death, we're just bankrupting the country by not paying for the services we want. Beavah

Yah, welcome to teenage boys, eh? IIRC, your lad is still a fairly young fellow. Lots of time, no need to push, and with teenage boys when parents push they like as not get rebellion rather than compliance. Yeh just have to decide whether you want to have an Eagle Scout son or whether you want your son to earn Eagle Scout. If it's the latter, then yeh give him some space to make it his. He'll catch on when his buddies start moving ahead of him. Yah, and I agree with your lad, eh? For most younger fellows, da required Eagle MB list is BORING. Typically it's the last thing that gets done, after they mature a bit to be able to push through boring stuff, and after they've had some of it in school so that they have a grasp of the basics of things like Cit. Nation and Cit. World and such. Sounds like your lad is doin' fine and is pretty typical. I'd suggest mom & dad support him by being positive about his scoutin', rather than finding ways to get on his case. Beavah