Beavah

The ranger asked us not to dig a hole in the middle of the ball field for our campfire but to use the fire rings at the campsite. I asked him "why, did someone do that?" He said yep, the scout troop that camped there last week. They also left Sunday with the campfire still burning! ... The troop camped next to us was running around screaming until 1 in the morning and lighting off firecrackers! Yah, I think this is da reality, eh? It's not "backcountry snobs", nor is it folks who just get annoyed by da normal activities of boys. There are some of those, but they mostly just grumble a bit. Da thing that really hurts our reputation is stuff like this, eh? We have a good fraction of our membership that just "ain't goin' to do that sissy liberal Leave No Trace stuff" and leaves behind campsites trashed and broken. Da BSA LNT folks have considered eliminatin' all saw and axe requirements, partly because land managers have taken 'em on tours of group campsites where BSA users have left no tree unmarred. We are da nation's number one user of public lands, and the leading wilderness educator in the country. We should be the elite. Our boys and adult leaders should be conspicuous in settin' the example for others of how to be the best citizen users of our wild lands. We should stand out to other travelers as being outstanding, not as a group yeh have to cringe at and worry about because they believe good citizenship is snobbish. There just ain't any excuse, and we should stop letting our members off the hook by pretending that there is. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... oops. I might have seen a pre-release of da stuff coming in January. I do remember commenting on it very negatively For the next month at least, yeh can continue scouting as we have for 5 generations, and teach kids to use tools properly in da performance of their duties. Beavah

Alas, yeh all need to read the new Eagle packet and da new continuously-updated G2SS. As of very recently, I believe there are significant restrictions on power tool usage. Essentially, our esteemed colleagues in H&S appear to have wholesale adopted da Department of Labor regulations for under-age workers into the scouting guidelines. So da rules that were designed to apply to prevent minors from working on dangerous factory floors with heavy machinery now are presumed to apply to boys volunteering on a project. What is permissible in a school shop class is no longer permissible in scouting. Beavah

Yah, Excibar, sometimes yeh just have to cut bait, eh? Da issues you describe in terms of not being a good example to the younger boys, not doing any work, etc. - those things can really drag down a troop. To give boys who demonstrate that behavior an award really drags down a troop. The good lads who are willing to work hard for our awards feel cheated and undermined. The lads on the edge who benefit the most from learning to set and fulfill real goals are given da green light to slack off. From what you and your fellow ASMs are saying, you've hit the limits with this young man. If yeh all recognize that you can't reach him with your scouting program and his presence is/will be a negative influence on da program of other boys, then it's time to act on that realization. Remove him from da POR, have a sit down with him and his mom about expectations, invite him to take a month off to think about what he wants to do. In a few cases, someone standing up like a man and telling him "no" is the sort of thing that a boy needs, and he comes 'round. Most of the time, it's a compassionate thing that gives the lad what he needs to tell mom or dad "no" and go pursue his own interests, where he really will engage and be successful. In both cases, it sets the right example for all the other boys in the troop. So stop with da Eagle focus. Focus on the real needs of the boy and of your program, and deal forthrightly with the situation that yeh have. Beavah

Yes, being in the country illegally is a matter of civil law, not criminal law. It is, however, a matter of law either way, and the common definition of a crime is an act that violates the law, regardless of whether it is pursued through civil or criminal channels. Nah, not really. "Crime" generally refers to somethin' that can get yeh jail time, whether a misdemeanor or a felony. Civil offenses are ordinarily called something like "infractions" for which yeh can be fined or have some privilege taken away (like losing your driver's license for too many points). Most people, even in common parlance, don't consider folks who commit civil infractions "criminals", except in jest. Like Blancmange says, a speeding ticket or a parking ticket or a notice that yeh let your grass get too high while you were out on vacation just doesn't rise to da level of "criminal". Same with a fellow who overstays his visa. Often enough, that can be an engineer that a company needs who was busy with a project and just forgot to renew, or a mom who overstays her tourist visa because her son got sick and is in a U.S. hospital. So we don't consider overstaying your visa a "crime". Doesn't change da answer, though. I wouldn't call attention to the fellow or have him submit paperwork that would lead to potential problems, but I would take him to see a colleague who specializes in immigration law to help him do what he needs to do to stay with his family without a lot of hassles. Beavah

Turning a blind eye to these matters is not only irresponsible, but it endangers the sensibilities of the young men we serve as examples for. Bah, humbug! What a load of balderdash. Kids are perfectly capable of understanding judgment calls, and routinely roll their eyes at adults who get all black-and-white over procedural nonsense. We as a nation routinely turn a blind eye to lawbreaking of all sorts. Just look at what the average speed is on the highways. . Da more important example is the example of responsible, prudent compassion we show the sojourner in our midst. Every variety of foreigners are allowed to own every variety of property in da U.S. Just like as a U.S. citizen you're allowed to own a vacation home in Bermuda or a company in Australia. Why would it be otherwise? B

I know when 1 council's records were messed up( if memory serves the registrar put the date SHE put the information into the council computer records and not when it was actually earned), they used copies of the scout's BSHB and the signatures from it to process the records. Just da BOR lines, eh? And they could just as easily have used a signed piece of paper that said the same thing. If adults are signing off on skills being learned, and then bouncing a scout back because the scout doesn't know it, then the problem lies with the adult, not the scout. Sure. So then several things should happen. 1) The adult should be re-educated on expectations. 2) Some adult should apologize to the boy and promise to work with him so that he properly meets the expectations. 3) The boy should learn the skills to properly meet the expectations in order to be recognized. All three are important. Da first shows the commitment of the leaders to the quality of the program. The second demonstrates to the youth how a man of honor behaves in such circumstances. The third allows the boy to develop and demonstrate his own honor. Beavah

Chaoman45, what yeh have to appreciate about these situations are that they usually are ambiguous, and there are such things as false accusations. A private organization like da BSA can ban someone based on suspicion, but it can't publish that suspicion to the world. That would be libel, unless the BSA could actually prove that the person was a molester. If some organization published that you were in its Black Book as a child abuser, wouldn't you go after 'em? That sort of thing can destroy your life, and the damages you deserve when an organization does that to you should properly be both large and punitive. Da experts in the field say that on average a perp of this sort molests 126 boys before being caught. It's rarely as cut-and-dried as a man raping a boy in a public facility, and even then (as we saw) conflicts of interest and loyalties exert far more influence on choices than we'd think. Just the norms of human nature. Look how few Republicans are willing to call out Republican leaders when they've been bad actors. Look at how da Democrats in Congress went and applauded Bill Clinton after he had been impeached. We tend to stick by "our people", right or wrong. It's actually quite remarkable when someone does have da courage to stand up. However, it's easy to do what Papadaddy did and just give newcomers and strangers the cold shoulder. Makes us feel like we're being righteous and responsible without havin' the real social cost of standing up to friends. In reality, it's probably not responsible, it's just rude. There's nothing in YP training that says we should shun a young adult who is interested in helping us out. Quite da opposite. Heck, we often hire fellows like that as camp program directors and such. If yeh had good YP training, you'd know that da typical perp for these sorts of things is an older family man like Jerry Sandusky. Beavah

I don't think it's that bad of an idea ... except it's not part of the BSA program. Yah, and who cares? At the unit level, scouting is a Chartered Organization program, not a BSA program. They're naturally goin' to use BSA materials, and probably materials from other sources from USSSP to American Red Cross to NRA and some home-grown stuff and then some. That's how the BSA program is designed to be used, eh? As a set of materials to assist da CO in designing and running its own program. And when da locals come up with somethin' interesting that seems to work, sometimes that becomes the BSA program. A SM can say that only he/she can approve requirements, and then still allow a PL to sign in the book signifying that the PL thinks the boy is ready for the SM to check the fellow out on the requirements. The book is just a record-keeping tool, eh? Not an official document. Troops can use those book lines in different ways, or not use 'em at all and just use Troopmaster. There's nothing "wrong" with that, so why would we get all in a twitter about it? Heck, a troop could even decide that tests for all of the rank requirements only happen at designated Testing Weekends throughout the year, where the boy has to come out on an adventure race and perform all of the skills on his own during the course of the race. If he performs all of 'em flawlessly, then a BOR meets with him at the end to have a short conversation and approve. If not, then they meet with him at the end and help him figure out how he's goin' to work on the remaining things while keepin' da rest in trim. There are all kinds of ways to use da BSA materials creatively and well. Yah, and all kinds of ways of usin' 'em poorly, like turning advancement into an administrative once-and-done paperwork exercise. So long as units are reachin' their goals for kids, while at the same time not diminishing the character and values associated with da BSA awards, life is good. As to MB's being an "introduction" to a topic, that's true, in the big picture view. Law MB just gives yeh an introduction to the very complex field of jurisprudence. First Aid just gives yeh an introduction to the field of Emergency Medicine. But yeh still need to be proficient in introductory knowledge and skills in order to earn the MB. Yeh have to be able to properly and effectively splint fractures, on demand, when confronted with 'em. Anything else is cheatin' the boy and subtracting from the requirements. Beavah

Yah, AlmanceScouter, I posted somethin' on this in the "Great Advertisement..." thread. More information out now. Packsaddle seems to know the area and the unit and might want to comment more. From what I can tell, the group was well prepared and knew the area. This looks like a "standard hike" for them, and the distances are respectable enough to expect that the group as a whole are decent hikers. Lessons to be learned? Da only error IMHO was that the boys "hunkered down" instead of movin' to a spot where searchers would be more likely to run into 'em as they were conducting hasty searches of trails. We have got to stop teachin' that nonsense. Another interestin' question to debate is when outside help should be called. Given that the lads were well-equipped for an overnight, was outside SAR (putting others at risk) really required only a couple of hours after they were found missing? Especially when yeh had 60 (sixty!!) people in da group that could have done a basic trail-run themselves. Thinkin' about Basementdweller's other thread, I also have to admit that hiking 60 people as a group in da backcountry is the sort of LNT ethic violation that gives all of us a bad name. Plus, it allows yeh not to notice that 3 lads are missing until yeh do a "head count" later on. If yeh hike in patrols of 8, it's unlikely that yeh won't notice that three are missing. I'll be sendin' off a few prayers for the injured rescuer as well. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, this issue has become so emotionally charged that it's hard for people to be rational about it. "Sanctity"? Only God is Holy. Somehow, in da grand scheme of things, a father who wants to be with and support his family just doesn't seem to me to be the equivalent of holding up a liquor store, committing membership fraud in a NFP organization, or selling junk derivatives that yeh claim are AAA bonds. Given da policies of the BSA and the emotionally charged nature of the thing, I think you're best not registering him until he finds a way to complete da green card or naturalization process. Of course, he can continue to participate as a parent. If I may suggest, yeh might take a look about to see if there's a competent immigration attorney in your area who might be able to help da family. With both his wife and son being U.S. citizens in residence, he should be able to take da steps to normalize his status in relatively short order (bureaucratic time, that is). Often folks are "illegal" only because no one has helped 'em with da paperwork process. Beavah

Yah, since a few folks were gettin' depressed (or depressing ), it's time to share some success stories. Now, we all have our paycheck moments that involve individual boys makin' breakthroughs, and those are precious. We can share those in another thread if folks want. In this thread, though, let's share programming success stories. You know, since we complain about national or council program choices sometimes, let's share da success stories of unit or district/council creative, exciting, or just well-run program that might give others some ideas. Ways of doin' things yeh found that worked for your kids, a great campout activity/plan that yeh think others might be interested in, etc. Only request is that since we're asking for creative/new/interesting program ideas, no one slam or argue with someone that the details of what they posted aren't kosher. So if someone's unit has good thing to report about requiring Lifesaving MB for Eagle in their program, we listen and think without reigning hellfire and damnation on them and their children to the 10th generation. Beavah

Yah, Exibar, it's not about advancement, eh? Yeh have 7 other methods and several years to help this boy grow into the man yeh want him to be. Sit with the lad and get him to admit out loud what's obvious to everybody, and make a plan with him to work on it. First learning and demonstrating the basic skills he's supposed to know, then (and only then) teaching others those skills, and then working his way up from basic teaching back to real leadership. Lots of good, hard, scoutmasterly mentoring and outdoor challenge. Work with the boy, not the badge. Now, one thing I would consider is the appropriateness of the PL position, eh? A PL in many ways is a sort of mini-adult, with responsibilities to watch out for and care for his guys. If the lad really doesn't have any skills or pro-active scout spirit, then PL isn't the job for him right now. Not fair to him, not fair to the other boys. I think by what you're saying that if yeh go after this lost sheep, he'll come around. That should be your focus, not advancement. Of course, if yeh find that the lad or his family aren't up for that - that they feel they're entitled to an award if he sits like a lump and muddles through some paperwork, or he's committed to an "unscoutlike attitude" - then there's always the door. Again the issue isn't advancement, it's whether this is the right place for him given that he's not willing to buy into the program. Beavah

Yah, here's a new one, eh? My apologies for da grammar, I figured I'd just cut and paste da stuff from the news reports in the area, and apparently they don't hire folks who know how to write. ------ Three Boy Scouts who went missing in Pisgah National Forest near Brevard on Saturday were found safe this morning. Transylvania emergency dispatchers said the scouts were found at about 9:30 a.m. Dozens of search crews had been looking for three boys scouts, ages 12 and 13, are from Troop 118, based at St. Stephen United Methodist Church in southeast Charlotte. St. Stephen's minister, the Rev. Tom Latimer told WBTV that the boys were safe. The Brevard Rescue Squad is coordinating the search. They say the scouts were last seen around 1:00 pm Saturday before being found this morning. Their troop was hiking from the Blue Ridge Parkway to the Buck Horn shelter in the Pink Beds area, when the three became separated from the rest of the troop. Authorities began searching for the boys at about 6 p.m. Saturday. A member of the Brevard Rescue Squad was injured during the search when the all-terrain vehicle he was riding threw him and rolled on top of him, according to rescue squad chief Vince Stone. The squad member was flown to Mission Hospital. His condition and extent of his injuries were not immediately known. ------ Don't know if we'll get enough info to really guess what happened, and I don't know da area. But it does show that when we rely on others for rescue we put da rescuers at risk. Rescuers push themselves when they believe kids are in danger. It will indeed be a tragedy if a man doesn't make it home to his family because he was injured while out lookin' for scouts who should have been prepared. B

Where do we start? National, of course, doesnt have a clue. Theyve completely wrecked Woodbadge, EDGE is a joke, they turned the Eagle badge into a shell of its former self, and they killed the Patrol method. So many problems catalogedWebelos IIIs. Cupcakes and Girl boy scouts. Paper Eagles. Merit badge clinics. Summer school summer camps. Yah, have yeh listened to the regular news lately? When yeh collect stories from an entire nation, there's bound to be a murder or a plane crash or rape somewhere, eh? Delivered right into your living room. Or yeh can just spend some time talkin' to cops, lawyers, or psychologists, eh? Any of 'em can convince yeh that everyone's a crook or nutjob. Or yeh can just watch House. And it seems to me that just about everybody agrees these days that there's somethin' wrong with the bozos at "national"! People naturally respond to bad things because we want to fix 'em. That's a good thing. It shows we care. And the folks servin' as commissioners or long-timers are a bit like cops or psychiatrists, eh? Don't let 'em get yeh down, they're good folks too. Even da lawyers. I can't vouch for da congress, though... So enjoy the local scouting that has good people running it, puzzling out how to make the program work for the boys in their care. Support 'em, cheer for 'em, pray for 'em. That's real Scouting, and there's a lot of good, real Scouting still out there. But don't be too hard on da folks who want to make it better, or who are strugglin' with the places where it's run off the rails a bit. The only time we really have to worry about da future of Scouting is when people stop caring enough to argue long and passionately about it. Because the sound of that lack of complaining will be the sound of people walkin' away, and Scouting becoming irrelevant. To paraphrase Elie Weisel, the opposite of love isn't hate or complaining. It's indifference. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

However, it is equally important to remember that we cannot (CANNOT!) add to the requirements. Yah, I was just curious, so I fiddled around with Google. Da official BSA program materials statement is that folks shouldn't add to or subtract from the requirements in the Advancement Program. Part of the BSA maintaining its copyrights and trademarks and not lettin' the thing go "open source". So I tried to do some Google searches to see how often folks posting were really talkin' about only one side of things: adding, without ever expressing any concern about subtracting. It got kinda complicated and I sorta made a hash of it because often people would quote da whole thing when they only wanted to refer to adding. But close as I could tell in da Scouter.Com forums, people went on a tear about "no adding to the requirements" between 100 and 1000 times more often than anybody really mentioned "subtracting". (Yah, it comes up a lot!) Now, perhaps there's been such a rash of people settin' outlandish new requirements that this imbalance is justified, but somehow all da threads about Eagle Mills belie that interpretation. Seems like, if we wanted to be good BSA citizens and help da corporation defend its copyrights, trademarks, and brand, we should at least be reminding people not to subtract from da requirements just as often, eh? Beavah

To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor - BSA Executive Board official policy on MBs Yah, hmmm... Given da BSA policy I quoted above, I think it would be a real shame if MBC's so completely abandoned their duty as to just sign things off based on school classes. It would really be cheatin' the boy. School and Scouting are different, eh? In school, a lad will sit with 30+ other kids, get a few minutes of da teacher's time, and spend most of his time doin' what's required for a grade. Scouting is different, or should be! The boy actually gets the attention of an adult who truly specializes in the area, as a mentor and friend. Most of the time, it shouldn't be like school, eh? The boy shouldn't be spending most of his time doin' what's required for a grade, and minimizing his contact with da counselor. I remember once watchin' a young MBC, a master's student in EE, workin' with a few boys on Electricity or Electronics MB. There were a few very bright young 13-14 year old scouts who were clearly "A" students in school, and who had memorized their school text on electricity. Could quote stuff, even, though they sometimes got da pronunciations wrong. But they'd never had an adult sit with 'em and just play around building a bunch of different circuits. It was magical. They were at it for hours, with lightbulbs goin' on one right after the other (figuratively and literally). With that mentoring hand, the boys went from successful students to enthusiastic apprentices to some real level of proficiency in the topic. That's what MB counseling can and should be doin', because schools often can't. Now, all that's not to say that a MBC for Theater MB shouldn't "count" the boy's performance in "Beavah flew over the cuckoo's nest". Synergy is fine. But da MBC should attend the performance, or perhaps a rehearsal and then the performance, walk the stage, talk to the boy afterward, etc. And then perhaps take him and a few of his buddies to a professional or community theater performance and talk to folks in the production and such. It's not about signoffs. It's about givin' the boy your full attention and sharing your enthusiasm and benefiting together from da relationship. Anything less is subtractin' from da program. Beavah

Yah, don't be depressed Sasha! For da time when good folks take control of the program for a stretch, scouting is at its best, eh? Yeh do a lot of good for a lot of boys, and have fun doin' it. Just because nuthin' lasts forever doesn't mean it isn't great work to do your best while yeh have the time and energy to do it. Beavah

We've lost a third of our scouts and half the leadership. We also lost most of our behavior issues, both adult and scout. Hmm, related? The scouts who are left are committed and challenged by their new roles as real leaders. We will see how it goes. Yah, hmmm... Brave of you and Tampa. I've seen this process play out lots of times, eh? It tends to follow a similar pattern. Changes in leadership bring a more visionary set of leader to a program who aren't comfortable with da "advancement mill". Older boys who had been "successful" in the mill, many of whom are behavior issues get upset and quit, fade, or are nudged out. That generates some relief among other kids and parents, who renew or "up" their commitment. Next round is with da parents of younger fellows who want da rapid advancement thing. Many parent tensions. Tough committee meetings. Bad behavior. Sometimes the SM is lynched and things go back to what they were, but now with a much smaller troop. Sometimes da parents lookin' for once-and-done move on. Sometimes problem parents "get it" with help from their son, or at least step back because their kid still likes it. What follows then is a period of growth, where visitors recognize the energy/commitment/vision of da group and are attracted to it. Support is strong, youth enthusiasm high. Numbers grow, as does level of adventure. Eventually, the SM/core parents get tired and fade or move on. New folks have less of a sense of da mission. New scouts and parents comin' out of cubs start pushing for more advancement like in cub scouts, and start complaining about da "old guard" who are adding to the requirements or gettin' in da way of their kids' advancement. Da old guard aren't as present and as good at communicatin', and are a bit set in their ways. More conflict ensues. Sometimes the old guard leaves and da unit returns to an adult-run advancement mill. Sometimes it melts down. And da process repeats. If yeh live long enough as a commissioner, yeh get to see this play out over and over again. Often in da same unit . Some school districts I know have done away with Valedictorian and similar honors, just because they got sick of it. You'd be amazed da number of lawsuits and the cost to da district from having high school Valedictorians (or sports programs, for that matter. ). I think we could probably jettison 80% of Advancement and it would be a stronger program, just keepin' a few recognitions that seem holistic and natural. Then we could spend more time arguin' about da uniform! Beavah

Yah, when yeh look at what went on at Penn State all yeh can do is shake your head in sadness. Don't let that fool yeh into believing that YP standards are about anything more than institutional protection, though. Jerry Sandusky would have passed a BSA background check. He would have received glowing reviews if anyone had checked his references. He would have been welcome as a speaker at Scouting functions and working with kids. From what I have read in da reports, almost none of the abuse took place at regular events at his charitable organization or at the university, where two-deep or no one-on-one would have applied. Nuthin' in YP would have prevented this. Like most predators, he befriended boys and their parents and became a regular, trusted person in their lives. Like any trusted person, he was allowed access to youth outside of institutional events where "YP" rules don't apply. Just as any of da many scouters here who are trusted by parents and youth are afforded such access. That's a good thing, eh? Kids need lots of trusted, caring adults in their lives - coaches and scouters and teachers and relatives and friends and ministers and parents. Bad men like this succeed because they mimic the actions of good men, eh? They listen to kids. They act like mentors and friends. Except unlike good men, they try to isolate the boy from others. Da more loving, interested, listening individuals a boy has involved in his life the more confidence he has and the less susceptible he is to da sort of isolation that a predator needs to succeed. We can wish that Joe Pa and da other cast of characters had been able to do the right thing, but da fact seems to be that no matter what the institution, includin' the BSA, folks in those positions are faced with a conflict of interest between their institution/job, their colleague, and their fundamental ethics. Da sad result of such conflicts is that people often choose poorly in such situations. That's why it's important for kids to have lots of individuals involved in their lives, because those individuals who know and care about the boy don't have that conflict of interest. They're the ones who see their way through to doin' the right thing most frequently. Ain't a policy in the world that can prevent evil. That requires the courage and sacrifice of good men and women. Beavah

I based what I said on the fact that I went to scouting.org and actually entered first class first year with and without quotation marks and fcfy and came up empty handed. Yah, I reckon that says more about how incredibly bad da search function is on Scouting.org than anything else. I ddn't see where a unit was encouraged to sign off requirements for skills that were not demonstrated. Yah, except it's da unit's responsibility to establish practices that will bring each boy to First Class in a year, eh? When a leader who isn't an old fart like you or I reads that, what's he or she goin' to take away from it? Most new, inexperienced scouters comin' up from Cubs take that to mean what it meant in Cubs, eh? Every boy should earn Wolf or Bear or First Class by the end of the year. In fact, yeh can plan ahead on what day they'll almost all be "done." The effect of a policy is often a lot different than what was intended by da words, eh? And we should evaluate a policy not by its words, but by the actual effect it has. Da actual effect of FCFY is to justify the adults who would run an adult-led curriculum-based Webelos III program with once-and-done signoffs. Just like da actual effect of "don't add to the requirements" is to enable those who don't believe in helpin' scouts to master skills. The intent may (or may not) be different, da actual words may (or may not) be different, but yeh judge da policy based on its effect, not on its intent. Beavah

On the comment of Troop expecting parents to have deep pocket ... yep, mine does. Very minimal fundraising ... Yah, I've seen some of this, eh? And I'll be honest, it does seem to be more common than "back in the day". I used to wonder about it, but then I've seen what hockey programs and travel team sports programs and school band trips charge, and I'm just about floored. Ever take a look at what a week of private or Christian summer camp costs? I hear a lot of frustration with popcorn, and see a lot of "popcorn burnout" that costs us families whose two working parents are relieved to finally be "done" at the end of Cubs. Time for a lot of families is more valuable than money, and they seem happy to write a check rather than spend a weekend at da Car Wash. What do folks think? What do yeh see in your area? Beavah

I have at LEAST 3 deep adults on the field and about 6 parents at every practice/game ... each which is a public park and lasts only 2 hours at most. Yah, and I bet that those 6 parents are relegated to the sidelines, eh? Abuse doesn't happen during games, either in Scouting or sports. It happens in da locker room late after most kids are gone. It happens at da coach's house when he has kids over or at the parent's house when they invite the coach over or at da college gym where da coach takes a young lad or lass to "practice" or "work out". In sports, yeh have a coach or two and a referee occasionally, and da parents are relegated to the sidelines. In Scouting, yeh have a SM and a bunch of ASMs and a bunch of parent Committee Members. While there might be expectations for fitness or behavior or a bit of "distance", da parents are by and large welcome participants in some form or another. Beavah

Och, this isn't that hard, eh? Kudu's been sayin' it for years. Da swimming signoff is proper when you are OK with the lad swimming on his own in deep open water without direct supervision. The navigate-on-a-hike signoff is proper when you are comfortable with the boy hiking and navigating on his own without any adults or older scouts. The operate a stove requirement is complete when yeh trust the boy to do it on his own around the bend and 300 feet away where if something goes wrong you can't help. Just like da driving signoff happens when yeh hand your boy the keys and tell him to go pick up his little sister from gymnastics. A boy is able to do when he is able to do without us. Anything else is just a distinguished presentation of cow pies. If you are willing to hand your kid the keys to the car the first time he successfully backs out the drive without taking out the mailbox, well, then it's once-and-done. . For da rest of us, I reckon we expect some reasonable degree of proficiency. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

The perps for the really dirty stuff have almost always involved non-scouts, often on 4-wheelers or some other kind of off-road vehicle. Yah, I've met them. . But I've also met Scoutmasters takin' dumps in da stream, all the troops Basementdweller mentions (I seem to keep runnin' into da same units ), and a few that have tried to kill me or other folks by throwin' rocks and such off of cliffs without a mind for the folks on the trail below. And the fires, always da fires. Seems like many troops can't go anywhere without hacking up wood, building a fire ring, and charring a big hunk of pristine meadow. And then leavin' it all there thinking that somehow other folks will appreciate how they have "improved" the place. I'm fairly convinced that only a fraction of our units are really good wilderness citizens and LNT campers. Most are mediocre front-country campers who really aren't quite ready to be in da backcountry. Well meaning folk with ordinary, unprepared lads who inadvertently give us a bad name, because when yeh put a group of 20 of those together, their impact just seems so much larger than a small family of similar skill. And we do have a share of da folks who are clueless or obnoxious users. Less than the front country boozer crowd, sure, but still enough to foul da waters. At da same time, it's cold up in these parts right now. We've had dose of snow already. Yeh will only see a very few folk on the trails, aside from those of us in blaze orange . But no matter the season, the one thing yeh can count on is that some troop is out enjoying it. And that counts for something, eh? Nobody else is gettin' boys out in the wind and weather the way our imperfect, well-meaning band of volunteers does year in and year out. Those are the lads who will be the future supporters of wilderness, the citizens who do their part to preserve da fields and streams because they remember how great it was to be there with buddies and Mr. Scouter. Hard to argue with that, even when we ain't perfect. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)