Beavah

Yah, Horizon, I hear yeh about the requirement. It's just that the requirement is Step 2 of Advancement, eh? It's the test. Now, what does a boy have to do in Step 1 of Advancement in order to learn all the things needed to run a safe trip afloat before he takes the test? I suppose that somebody might say that all the lad has to do is go home and memorize the 9 points and then regurgitate them at the next meeting, but I agree with yeh that I don't think any of us would consider that Scouting. I would think that in order to learn all the things to run a safe trip afloat, a boy would have to go on at least a few safe trips afloat, both as a participant and as a safety helper / assistant leader in his patrol. Then when he tells the ASPL how to run a safe trip afloat for his sign-off, he's not vomiting forth memorized lines he doesn't understand and won't remember, he's instead talkin' about proper PFDs and how to check their fit, and proper canoe sizing and maintenance and how to balance partners and assess skill levels. He can talk about river hazards not by reciting a generic line but by describing the river hazards he's actually experienced and how to avoid 'em (or respond after a failure to avoid ). He has the necessary experience to know when it's OK to fool around and when not - in other words he has learned what "Discipline" really means in a boating context, not just how to stack a sandwich. After that lad earns First Class, he becomes eligible in Scouting for various high adventure activities as well as servin' as a POR within his troop, eh? That's where he is goin' to have to actually perform those skills and plan and lead in those environments, being partly responsible for the safety of his patrol-mates and troop-mates. You're right that's not part of the First Class requirements, but the First Class requirements are there to prepare him for these things that should be expected of him at Star and Life. If he can't even tell about 'em, how will he be able to do 'em when he needs to? So da question in terms of FCFY is how much time and experience does an average lad who joins with no boating experience (since it's mostly not allowed in cubs) need before he has really learned and can tell about all the things needed for safety afloat? On his own, from what he has learned, not from what he has crammed. I think it takes more than one time out. Same with navigation. Same with cooking. Same with first aid. Same with water rescue. Heck, we all know that one time out ain't enough even for simple stuff like knot tying and fire starting. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Ah, a startup enterprise, eh? I think what yeh need to do is think about your two older boys as Troop Guides and JASM sorts, eh? Inspire 'em with the challenge of being partners with you in building a great troop over the next few years, beginnin' with your crossovers. Really use 'em as partners, too - making site reservations, helping teach, comin' up with new ideas, being mentors to the younger guys, etc. Along the way yeh can push the Star Scout on MBs just because he needs to have those skills to teach the basics to the younger guys. Your real deal then is to sketch out a 3-5 year plan with your two partners in crime. How do yeh get from where you're at to being a great troop? Yeh might share that with the CC or Committee, but it's really your plan on the operational side, eh? Then yeh need the CC to work with the committee to come up with their 3-5 year plan to support your 3-5 year plan. How much money in year 5? What gear in year 3? What research back-up to support the boys in year 2? When it comes 'round to year 1 of the Plan to be a Great Troop, don't give in to the temptation to do it yourself. That's a waste of your time, because you're givin' up one of the best mentoring opportunities yeh have. Get with your two youth partners in crime and work on it together. You need them, because no matter how "hip" you think you are, yeh really don't have anywhere near the kid-savvy that they do. And from now on, I every time yeh start to think "Merit Badge Calendar" I want yeh to put your hand on a hot stove. Yeh have to break yourself of that habit early on or pretty soon you'll be a two-pack-of-blue-cards-a-day chain smoker. I sorta like da notion of settin' aside some fundraising or some dues revenue toward future high adventure treks, but for that one yeh want to sit with your COR and CC and then with the committee, because it can be a real bear trap. When it comes to "pools of money" yeh have to be very careful and very clear about what you're doin' and why, and about how it is not the family's money. What will yeh do when a boy quits the troop before he goes on a high adventure? When one boy fundraises more than another? When only one gets a slot for Jambo? When yeh have a pot of money saved up for high adventure and a boy needs financial help for summer camp? Yeh want to think through these things and more, and then be very clear with everybody (over and over again), and transparent with how yeh manage things. Beavah

Hiya Deaf Scouter! I think yeh want to be careful not to take the boys' work away from them. So things like a special MB calendar for the required MBs is somethin' that yeh should file in the recycle bin. One of the great things boys at Star, Life, and Eagle learn is how to read, plan, and meet requirements for themselves, eh? Just like they'll have to do in college or in work. Don't take that away from 'em. When your Patrol Leaders Council meets to do an annual plan, I think it's helpful if they bring their school calendars, as well as a list of ideas / desires for activities from their patrol members. It's also helpful if they bring what things their patrol members need to learn advancement-wise if they are younger fellows. If you're dealin' with a young and inexperienced PLC, I think it also helps if you bring some notion of a total $ budget for the year and a rough notion of what some things (like cabins) cost, as well as some activity ideas to have ready. Sit with the SPL and ASPL and share those in advance, so they're comin' from the youth leaders, and spend some time with 'em on how to put together an agenda and lead a discussion, so that they'll do a good job with the boys. I think it helps to choose a spot to meet that is a ways away and sort of special. The Committee, of course, shouldn't be doin' a thing with the calendar since that's the job of the boys. I suppose in some committees they review and rubber stamp it, mostly to make sure the safety, budget, and adult coverage makes sense. Jambo participation is done at the council contingent level rather than at the troop level, so it's more of an individual thing than a troop thing. Your committee can help out by doin' a bit of communication to the families of boys who will likely be eligible for the next Jambo about what it is and what the participation costs are likely to be. Dependin' on how yeh handle finances in your unit and how fast and loose your CO is willing to play with the IRS, yeh might allow the boys to accumulate money toward Jambo, or yeh might just decide as a committee to set aside 10% from each fundraiser as a pool of funds to support any boy who gets a national or international jamboree berth. Yeh might do somethin' similar for high adventure trips. Beavah

I don't think this is that hard. All it takes is some thought. For example, the boys pick a canoe trip...That forces manditory swim tests and safety afloat for all. (FC req). Boys pick a hiking trip, give them the map, walk with that patrol and let them get a little lost. Hiya CricketEagle. I think what you're describing is what I would call once-and-done. I could be wrong, but if yeh only have one canoe trip, then I expect the lads only have one real exposure to the 9 points of Safety Afloat. Yeh have one hiking trip, so they get to hike with a map and get a little lost once. I think it takes more than one exposure to learn what the points of Safety Afloat really look like and mean. I doubt that your boys who get signed off for First Class can plan and run a canoe trip as a Star Scout servin' in a POR. But that's the point of Safety Afloat, eh? We teach Safety Afloat to youth and adults so that they can plan and run water trips. I think it takes more than one exposure to learn map navigation skills or what to do when lost. I'm skeptical that the boys you describe could really do a 5-mile on- and off- trail hike doing their own navigation without help after that one hike. Once-and-done shortchanges kids on the real experience of scouting to my mind. In some cases, like teachin' water rescue skills for Second Class, once-and-done is a bit dangerous, eh? This to my mind is da problem with FCFY. The test, which is Step 2 of advancement, is the boy doin' his own plan and navigation for a 5 mile hike. The test is done once. But Step 1 of advancement, A Scout Learns, takes a whole bunch of exposure and practice and activity before yeh ever get to the test. So a lad should have several canoe trips under his belt where he watches, learns, and applies Safety Afloat before he's ready for the canoe trip on which he is tested. He should have a bunch of hikes and map reading and navigation under his belt before he's ready to plan and navigate his own hike as a test. He should have a bunch of times out learning and practicing water rescue methods and makin' go / no-go decisions before yeh pop a test on him during an outing. There just aren't that many troops that run the number of canoe trips and hikes and water rescue meetings and all the rest that are necessary for an average boy to learn all those things well in a year. So FCFY instead pushes 'em toward skipping Step 1 of Advancement and just goin' with once-and-done. Beavah

A youth under age 16, accompanied by a properly licensed adult, may enjoy those privileges conveyed by the license held by the accompanying adult Ah, excellent! We don't want them to go out hunting each other with paintball crossbows without bringing us along to join in the fun, eh?! Da part I'm confused about, though, is where to get a license for hunting teenagers during paintball crossbow season. B

But what else would be in a troops program but Scout Skills? And the opportunity to use, hone, master them? Why else does a troop exist except as an opportunity to use the skills you have learned? TO HAVE FUN AND ADVENTURE. To develop a deeper relationship with God. To play. To build knowledge of citizenship and an ethic of civic responsibility and servant leadership. To tell stories. To develop a sense of personal character and honor. To play jokes. To build habits of a physically healthy lifestyle, of emotionally healthy friendships and relationships across ages, of mentally healthy practices managing time and studies and activities. To challenge each other. To build a commitment to personal and communal ideals. To marvel at stars and sunsets. To develop meaningful friendships with people of all ages and walks of life. To understand and enjoy the outdoors. To build personal and group identity through patrols. To experience black flies and mosquitos, and through them learn patience and humility. To learn the habits and skills of leadership and followership. To make fart noises non-stop on a 4 hour car ride just to see if the driver's head will explode. To try new things, and work on them until achieving basic mastery. To set personal and group goals and strive for them. To build a habit of helping others and recognizing others for their accomplishments. To embarrass others by publicly roasting them for some of their other "accomplishments". To build a healthy sense of personal pride reflected in clothing, language, and comportment. To be goofy and silly. And thank you qwazse, First CLass in a year can be done if the scout is willing and the troop has to be willing to give the scout the chance I don't think yeh quite understood qwazse, eh? Because I think he's sayin' the same thing that VeniVidi and I are. Yep, a lad who goes home on his own and takes out 2 books on land navigation from a library and sets up a compass course around his neighborhood with his dad and builds alcohol stoves with his grandpa while stayin' out at hunting camp is goin' to advance faster, and quite possibly will make First Class in a year. That lad is also goin' to be attracted to Scoutfish's troop with its 2 + outings a month, eh? It's great to know such kids, but they are what they are because of family and individual gifts, not because of our program. We can encourage boys to try to read more, and play more at home, and delve into interests more deeply, but buildin' those habits also takes time. There's a difference between recognizin' such individual exceptionalism and claiming that every boy who participates in a typically active, carefully activity-scheduled year of scouting is goin' to be capable of mastering all the skills needed to legitimately meet the requirements of First Class. Twocubdad demonstrated it's not possible to do for cooking. Quazse demonstrates that it's not reasonable to do for land navigation. VeniVidi discusses how almost all troops fail to achieve this for first aid. So inevitably, when the Guide to Advancement says that the unit's responsibility is to "bring each new Boy Scout to First Class rank within a year of joining", we have a conflict, eh? To learn requires more time for most boys. So the vast majority of troops, and the national organization as well, face a choice, eh? Take longer, or expect less. Da easiest thing to do is to dumb things down. To change "do" to "discuss". To claim that expecting a boy to be able to remember the knot he "learned" is adding to the requirements. To fudge and call an increase of 1/8 of a pullup an improvement, or flailing exhausted through 100 yards passing a swim check. To make Boy Scouting advancement a "do your best" thing, like the cub program where boys also advance together on a yearly basis. Beavah

Yah, right there with yeh, KC9DDI. Extremist style can destroy the message. I feel da same way about being a conservative these days. B

So a really dedicated scout could go camping at least 21 times just at the troop level .This is not counting Jambos. camporees, summer camps, other special events. Well, a trail to first class lad isn't goin' to be goin' to Jambo, eh? I get your point, but I think what you're not realizin' is that your troop is quite unusual. Remember, a troop makes the Bronze level of Journey to Excellence for camping four (4!) times durin' the year. Gold level is only 9 times, eh? Those numbers are set in JTE to reflect what's really goin' on in most troops in most of the nation. I think I've agreed that an unusually active program can achieve great things with very gung ho and dedicated boys who come in with lots of prior experience. Run 2-3 weeks of patrol cooking summer camp, and you'll go far. You'll go pretty far at 2-3 outings a month, or with outdoor rather than indoor meetings. Naturally, troops that run this sort of program are also goin' to attract lads who have had more camping experience than average as elementary schoolers, so they're goin' to be startin' further along than many other troops. But yeh can be JTE gold, by our own measures a "top" troop, and offerin' every boy a real opportunity at FCFY will be out of your reach. I also think that even for a very active program, if yeh don't dumb things down it really gets a bit too adult-driven / less fun when yeh try to pack it into a year. MHO. Beavah, I think you might be overly pedantic on this one. Well, perhaps too pithy. I honestly think this is important though, eh? Yeh can't schedule learning. There's an insidious assumption in FCFY that you can, that you must and it drives well-intentioned adults toward the scoutin' version of insanity. Built in to the notion that yeh can schedule learning is a belief that all boys learn at the same rate and from the same things. So if yeh just schedule those things then you've provided the appropriate opportunity. It's all nonsense, and poor scouting. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, OK, now let's dig into that a bit further, eh? If I'm readin' yeh right (and I might not be), we're at a meeting and the skills will be "presented", with some boys helpin' others. Does being "presented" and then helped over the course of half an hour or so constitute the learning really being "done"? Then there's a patrol competition. In this competition, how much practice does the individual scout get without help? Let's say the patrol contest lasts 20 minutes. With 8 lads in the patrol takin' turns, each boy gets 2-3 minutes or so. Is that enough to learn? Of course maybe the patrol is workin' as a group, in which case the boy might not really get any individual time at all. Remember, we're talkin' an average boy, with average attention span, who comes in with no prior skills, in an average troop with an ordinary level of activity. Of course, yeh could spend multiple meetings on a skill like navigation, eh? Problem is, in an active troop yeh have maybe 40 meetings a year, and there are more than 20 individual skill requirements in Tenderfoot alone, eh? Yeh don't even have time to spend that one full meeting on map and compass. So honestly, the meetings don't really add much, eh? It's the outing time that really counts. What do yeh suppose it really takes for that average lad who comes in without any prior skills to learn enough to be able to plan and navigate a 5 mile route on his own (mix of on-trail and a bit of open land)? On his own meaning that he personally can do the navigation. Because that's the requirement, eh? Then add up what it really takes to learn to swim, and perform water rescues, and identify plants, and learn a mess of first aid, and plan and cook meals, and... and... and... Beavah

Well, the responses are comin' from assuming an average troop followin' the program as presented, with a New Scout Patrol where instruction is handled by a Troop Guide and (youth) instructors, and the annual program plan is created by the PLC, not the adults. But I'll just go back to my question, then. How do yeh actually "schedule the activities a scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class are skills, not activities?

A troop "could" set up stoves and have scouts practice cooking and cleaning during troop meetings and even "GASP" duing Patrol meetings outside of Troop meetins, it could happen. Yah, sure. Now tell me how many troops yeh know that really have the Troop Guide come in on a non-meeting night and set up 4-8 sets of stoves and cook gear with food to help the NSP boys practice. Remember, all of the testing of requirements has to occur on outings, eh? So as TwoCubDad said, even if yeh started with testing immediately (and skip the whole "A Scout Learns" step of advancement), yeh still wouldn't really be able to make it to FCFY without runnin' multiple overnight outings a month. Can we dream up exceptional troops where FCFY can be done well for a subset of boys who are themselves exceptional? Yah, sure. But for an average troop or average kids, it's just nonsense, eh? Because of that, FCFY leads to all sorts of unintended and unfortunate program consequences. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Again, the way committees are set up varies quite a bit between different troops and chartered organizations, eh? So there aren't any real hard-and-fast answers to these questions. If yeh read the Troop Committee guidebook, the sense that yeh get is that the Troop Committee is somewhere between a Board of Directors to the Scoutmaster's CEO, or an advisory board to the Chartered Partner, or a group of worker-bee volunteers to help out with administrative tasks. In none of those different (and sometimes conflicting) views of a committee is there a notion of approving individual activities. That would be micromanaging for a board of directors, outside the purview of an advisory board unless asked for advice, and not in keeping with the proper position of a group of volunteer helpers. So, loosely speakin', in terms of best practice, no, the committee shouldn't be approving individual outings. Now, there are some places in the BSA literature that suggest the committee should approve the annual calendar of events when the boys propose it, as well as the supporting budget for those events. That is in keeping with the board of directors role of strategic oversight. Probably what gets confusin' is the Tour Plans, eh? Those things encourage poor practice. The Committee Chair is supposed to sign on them, and of course a committee chair shouldn't sign anything without at least the implied approval of the committee. So some units do take the Tour Plan form to mean that the committee is supposed to review and approve outing plans, at least in terms of the stuff on the Tour Plan. It helps a bit to know that this is just a planning document now and not a "permit", but folks still think of 'em as more of a "tour permit", and some of National's language in terms of "requiring" the thing hasn't helped. All of that is just a longwinded way of sayin' that in the end, this is up to your committee and the CO it represents, but that generally speakin' committees approving individual events is not best practice. Beavah

That means the Troop scheduled the activities that a Scout needs to earn first class. Yah, hmmm... I'm sure that's the stated rationale. But let's dig into that a bit deeper. How do yeh actually "schedule the activities that a Scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class is not activities, but skills? That's where the fundamental flaw is. Boys don't learn on a schedule. Just because you had an activity doesn't mean he learned, eh? In fact, I can't recall very many times where anyone has really learned anything the very first time they tried it. So scheduling activities sets up a one-and-done mentality, eh? We had the activity, the boy was there, so he got the signoff. Twocubdad's cooking example is a great one, eh? If a lad has never cooked before, how many times cooking does it take before he can successfully cook some pancakes, start to finish, from stove setup to cleanup? I'm talkin' doin' it himself, eh? Not just watching or helping out, and with no adult hints or hovering. How many times planning and shopping and figurin' out quantities before he is able to plan and buy a meal on his own? A weekend's worth of meals? In order to be a First Class Scout, the lad should be able to, on his own, plan, purchase, store, prepare, cook, and clean a weekend's worth of nutritious meals. And then be good enough to also lead some less experienced boys in helping out with the cooking. Now how do 8 boys in a NSP each manage to get all that experience in a single year? The only way yeh do it is if yeh carefully schedule cooking "activities", complete with a well-ordered and adult-planned cooking rotation, and sign off for once-and-done. It's far more natural to think in terms of a rank a year in a mixed-age patrol. There an 8th grader may be working on doing a weekend food plan (First Class), collaborating with a 7th grader working on a single meal plan (2nd Class) , and working with several 6th graders who are learning cooking basics by helping prepare meals (Tenderfoot). Each of the few sixth graders can get many opportunities to help with preparing meals; each 7th grader can get several tries at individual meal planning, each 8th grader can get several tries at weekend menu planning. And because yeh have kids at different levels, the younger ones can learn by watching and example from his patrol-mates, instead of relying on a TG/Adult ASM. Beavah Beavah

Yah, SpencerCheatham. No change. Or, rather, there was a brief change, and then it was reversed. Lasertag is also still unauthorized, and squirt guns have been added to the list as well. Now, as far as I can tell, it is OK to go all Hunger Games and glue paintballs to the front end of an arrow shaft. Then issue everyone a quiver of the things along with a bow, put on your protective gear and have at it in the paintball arena. That would be really fun I'd imagine, and take quite a bit of skill to boot. And because a bow is clearly not a "simulated firearm", it's OK! Beavah

Yah, I was honestly havin' a hard time comin' up with anything. Even the most spectacular storms have been simply a wonder and a delight. Ah, but eventually I remembered the time that I decided to try a bivy sack instead of a tent. They were just comin' into mainstream production, and I thought "hey, what a great idea". So I bought one of the models that won a Backpacker Magazine award or somesuch, and thought it would be the perfect thing for winter campin'. These were the early ones without the little loop pole that gives yeh a touch of head room. Now yeh all know that I live up in the frozen north, where (aside for this year) snow is a thing of beauty and backbreaking shoveling. So I load up my brand new bivy sack in a pack on skis and head off for a 4-5 day long weekend. Ah! So easy to pack. So light! What a great idea, a bivy sack! Yeh all know what's comin' of course. Very first night, about 7-8 miles of breakin' trail back into the woods I settle down for a night's sleep, all cozy and tight in that bivy. Early season, so not enough snow for a cave, and I didn't want to take the time for a quinzhee, especially since in the north we're daylight challenged in the winter. My guess was the snow started 'round 11pm and by morning we had nearly 2 feet of fresh snowfall. On top of me. It was warm and cozy and quiet, eh? Until wakin' up confused, a bit oxygen deprived, and buried alive in a bag where yeh can't even find the zipper to get your hands out. That whole dream of being buried alive merging into the reality of being buried alive is enough to send yeh into uncontrolled terror. I reckon I've never been comfortable sleepin' in a bivy sack since. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Can youi still use the first year to 1st class checksheet even if you move at a slower place or do you follow another plan? Yah, hmmm.... like others, I'm wonderin' what in the world a '1st class checksheet' is and why someone hasn't practiced firestarting with it. It brings to mind that gawd-awful 50+ page FCFY curriculum document that ol' BobWhite once brought around. Everything neatly planned out in precise 10-minute increments so that kids got to experience all the requirements at some point durin' the year. Da thing of it is, it's not about experiences, eh? It's about becoming experienced. The recognition of a patch is nuthin' next to the pride yeh feel when yeh can genuinely do something. Having an experience of guided bike-riding is nuthin' next to the experience of being able to ride a bike. From back in '89-'90 when FCFY was first rolled out, I said that with an average troop program it just wasn't possible to get most kids to First Class in a Year. How could it be when it was originally designed to be the top achievement of scouting over a three year period? The only way to do it in a year is to dumb it down. As Eagle92 points out, just lookin' at the cooking requirements demonstrates that FCFY is not possible, eh? That's before yeh get to First Aid or water skills, where FCFY forces a unit into once-and-done or into lecture/demo "discuss what to do" rather than "be able to do." So to answer the question, if someone gave "the first year to first class schedule" to a bunch of boys, that was somethin' they made up, not somethin' they got from the BSA. But if the lads adopted it as their plan, then I think yeh go with it for a bit. I have no doubt that as long as the adults don't push it it will be less than 3 months before the boys decide that goin' fishing, chasing butterflies, climbing trees, playin' capture the flag and all the rest are more fun than sittin' in yet-another-first-aid-class. So at that point, yeh let 'em do all those things, and then along the way teach this one how to make a good pancake and that one how to set up the dining fly and then they show the other lads and it becomes fun to camp, with the learning being just part of the adventure. What you'll find is the boys love it, but they will "stall" advancement-wise for a while at different points. That's natural. The way of boys is the same way their bodies grow - in spurts. Periods of free play and fun, followed by periods of intense learning and growth, each at different times. Try it, eh? I reckon boy you and the boys will find it's much more natural and fun. If you're welded to a schedule and yeh can't get free of it, then I think if yeh just slow down you'll need to be thoughtful about it. Leastways up here in the north yeh have to be mindful of the seasons, eh? Slowin' down might put yeh in the wrong season for some activities. Beavah

Yah, hello there Reasonable Rascal. I think the core of this question is not found in books on procedure, eh? The core of the question is found in doin' what's right for the boy and the program. As a Scoutmaster, you're there because your Chartered Organization and a whole mess of community representatives and parents decided you were the best person to trust and rely on to help develop the young people in your community. So yeh use your best judgment to do what is best for the boy and the program. Is the boy pulling a fast one, as Eagle732 reported? Then of course you don't recognize him in front of the community and have others applaud his "achievement", because that would be the wrong lesson for the boy and for the other boys, eh? It would teach them that the easiest road to public acclaim is to cheat. Did the counselor not live up to his/her end of the bargain, by testing the boy individually and ensuring he was proficient on each requirement? Then yeh sit with the lad and talk honestly about honor, and how an honorable man refuses to wear awards that he didn't truly earn, and yeh find him a new counselor who will help the boy really learn what's expected for the badge. And then yeh make sure to fix the system by speakin' to that MBC or to the district, and not usin' him/her again. Is it somethin' that's "on the edge" in some way? Then yeh trust that the MB counselor has the expertise that you don't, and yeh recognize that sometimes the right lesson is to teach all the boys to trust in the system. We have to trust our fellow adults to make judgment calls, eh? So yeh honor the badge even though yeh have misgivings, rather than playin' "gotcha". Is it somethin' where the parents went rogue? Then perhaps what yeh need to be doin' is dealing with the parents' behavior directly, rather than through the boy in the middle. The point is it ain't about signatures and forms and cards and guidebooks. It's about character development and mentoring youth. Keep your eyes on the prize and not on the paperwork and yeh won't go far wrong. Beavah

Yah, Crossramwedge, we're all waitin' on yeh, eh? To cheer and be supportive and buy yeh a virtual beverage of your choice for doin' the hard part of your job. MattR, I think da threads Eagle92 are referrin' to are here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=332411#id_332558 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=341502#id_341502

She's my oldest son's girlfriend. She wound up going out just for the day and my son brought her home after dinner. And there we go breakin' the G2SS driving rules, eh? I reckon sometimes ordinary common sense gets in the way of "compliance." From what I understood from the posting the two members were injured before they started the trip. Perhaps school sports injuries or somesuch. So they may have waited around for 'em or decided to bring them along but modify the trip so they could participate. You're right, though, that that wasn't clear. Beavah

Hiya sasha. Generally speakin' a committee should work together, eh? Contentious votes should be avoided as being a sign that everybody needs to get their priorities straight and work harder at workin' together. The BSA only provides vague guidelines about committee operations, because the structure and functioning of a troop committee is really up to the Chartered Organization. Some Troop Committees only have three members of the church on 'em. In others, all of the parents participate. In still others, it's a mix of parents and community members. In still others... You get the point. Within the BSA, a person cannot register in the same unit as both an ASM (SA) and a Committee Member (MC). What happens in the Chartered Organization, though, is up to them, eh? They can allow the ASM to attend and discuss and vote with the committee if they want. That's the right thing to do if the committee is set up to function as a parents' committee, where all parents are welcome to participate. Otherwise you'd be disenfranchising an ASM just because he or she was doing more work than the other parents. It also might be the right thing to do if the ASM has been tasked to also serve in a committee role, which often happens in smaller troops. I'm not sure what yeh mean by a "conflict of interest". Conflict of interest is a legal/ethical term that refers to a problem of servin' two masters. The sort of thing that would be a conflict of interest for a committee member would be somethin' like a vote to pay the committee member for a piece of property or a service. The committee member would then be torn between his or her duty to the committee to do what's best for the program, and his or her own financial or familial well-being. So any committee member should refrain from voting in that kind of situation. Aside from that, though, there's really nuthin' that rises to a conflict of interest in a scouting program. The interests of the SM/ASMs and the interests of the committee are the same, eh? To do the best job for the boys. In theory, the local council or district is responsible for recruitin' MBCs, but don't hold your breath. In most places, that job is functionally handled by the units in some way or another. Could be the Advancement Chair, could be the Committee Chair, could be the SM or someone else. Often it's everybody. The SM, however, has discretion in terms of who he allows kids to go see, and some Chartered Organizations have additional requirements. If yeh don't mind my sayin' so, it sounds like "something is up." Rather than try to treat the symptom by lookin' up the guidance in the old guidebook, my suggestion is that yeh instead treat the cause by takin' some time to get everyone to step back and take a deep breath and focus on how to serve the lads. Of course, if yeh share what's up, we might be able to help a wee bit from afar. Otherwise we're all just guessin', eh? Beavah

Not just Obamacare, eh? Medicare and Social Security. Only difference for Obamacare is that at least the young folks actually get some coverage for their money, unlike the others. And they get to choose a plan and a provider that's perhaps more suited to their needs. Both Medicare and Social Security are regressive and economically unsound. The country gains nothing economically by paying the medical bills of retirees who are net "takers" from the economy. The best investment of health care $ is to invest in the health of the young, eh? The people who will be working and contributing to the economy for many many years. Similarly Social Security isn't economically sound, either. The best investment is not in paying the bills of retirees, but in paying for the education and training of young people. Again, the investment in young people pays off in decades and decades of economic productivity. It's a great investment for the country, whereas payments of Social Security is a national investment in economic inactivity. Now, there are compassionate reasons for both, eh? But perhaps compassion is better expressed through charitable work that is more carefully targeted. The presence of Social Security and Medicare also creates a bit of a moral hazard, where instead of investing in their own security folks expect to be taken care of. B

We can only answer the questions and address the issues that are put in front of us, based on the information that is put in front of us. Not to speak too much more from the high horse that shortridge has saddled up for me, but this to me is just a lame cop-out. We have a brain, eh? There's no reason why we have to accept what is "put in front of us" at face value. We can apply a touch of skepticism, a dollop of experience, and the fundamental principle that the overwhelming majority of people involved in Scouting are good, decent, honorable folks who just care about kids. In other words, we can stay Mentally Awake. Nah, fellow scouters aren't perfect. They make the same mistakes we do. But as a group they are neither stupid nor wicked. It takes very little thought or imagination to combine what we know about scouters and scouting more generally with the one-sided perspective we're readin' and get to a view that is far more likely to be closer to the truth, and more helpful to the questioner. It's just not as emotionally satisfyin'. The point is that by "standing by" what we said without thinkin' through things clearly, we gave objectively poor advice to a visitor. That's not Helpful. I reckon that's somethin' we should care about, eh? There is no virtue in "standing by" poor advice. The only virtue is correctin' it so that next time we do better. That's "we", eh? Me as well as everyone else. It wasn't half a page in before we were firin' the Advisor and suggesting missing work to go pull the kid from the trip. We live up to the Oath and Law for our visiting parent questioners by takin' the time to listen more careful, apply more of our experience, and being more truly helpful. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Since he is the adult in charge, he does need to answer to them personally instead of a youth. Actually, he should of contacted the parenst first before changing the plans as parents did not agree to or sign any permission slips for the extra unplanned activities. Nah, the Scoutmaster doesn't "answer to" the parents at all, eh? He is a volunteer for the Chartered Organization and answers to them, not personally to individual parents. The last thing in the world that we should put in place is a notion that every time an itinerary has to change to deal with an ill or injured scout the SM has to go personally notify and get new permission from every single parent of every child on the trip. Again, I think a bit of calm readin' from a balanced perspective is in order here. This is a parent and a boy who are new to the program, eh? First big trip away. Lisabob is right, the Advisor should try to be understandin' and helpful. At the same time, we all know as scouters that sometimes no matter how many ways yeh try to communicate with new families the message doesn't get across until they actually have the experience. That's the way most humans learn, eh? Not by bein' talked at or readin' the things that get mailed out, but by experience. B

On the phone call thing, I think a lot depends. Yep, with a new parent and boy, yeh have to make allowances and leave some time for instruction. The transitions between programs can be jarring for parents. When boys join a new activity, it's easier for the folks runnin' that activity to set expectations because there aren't as many assumptions in play. But when yeh move to a different scouting program, there's a lot of assuming it will be like the last one. That takes some time to work through. On the flip side, I think we have to recognize that when units are in the field, adult leaders can't be at the beck and call of parents phoning their cell. They are responsible for bein' with the kids and supervising activities and all the rest. I remember any number of times when scouters pockets started ringing while supervisin' climbing activities or helpin' a lad cook dinner and such. There should not be an expectation of adult contact on the part of parents while units are in the field, if only because there's no guarantee of cell reception. I think generally it's the responsibility of the parent to know what's goin' on before they send junior off, and they shouldn't expect that if they weren't payin' enough attention before they dropped him off that a scouter is goin' to have time to spend explainin' things to 'em from the woods. Phone calls to the field should be saved for true emergencies, like a death in the family. They shouldn't be used for "Oh, yeah, we forgot to ask what the itinerary was before you left." Beavah

Yah, so now. Time for a moment of reflection, eh? In the parent thread to this one, a mom who was new to Venturing sent the fur flyin' by alleging what seemed to be YP violations of a moderately serious nature. That engendered the usual forum response of a whole mess of people flyin' off the handle, winding the VentureMom up with rules quotes and instructions to call the SE and florid condemnations of the venturing advisor in question. After all of that, and everyone flyin' off the handle here, we learn that in fact there weren't any youth protection "violations" at all. Not a one. Just some ordinary new parent communication issues, eh? And here we have been, as fellow scouters, condemning one of our brothers from afar and sending a mom who just needed some thoughtful reassurance off to file complaints with the SE and everybody else. How many times does this have to happen before we learn, I wonder. I know that there's great emotional satisfaction in seeing "violations" and quotin' Authority and all the rest, eh? Righteous indignation can be titillating. But we try to live by a Law, and to my mind that means we should be Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, and Kind. I think, on reflection, that should include how we think of and treat our fellow leaders who aren't present here. Scouters the world over are good, responsible people, and we should begin by truly believin' that of each other. We all fail at the Law sometimes. I certainly do. But hopefully we learn. Beavah