Beavah

Yah, fred8033, this is where yeh need some history with da program. What I describe has been the process forever; what you're tryin' to twist da words into is novel. G2A was put together with lots of input; da monthly advancement news and random videos are put together by a smaller group of mostly office-folks. Those were the same people that brought us "active=registered". But da bigger question of course has nuthin' to do with quotin' books. To me da question is this, eh? Yeh have a Scoutmaster who is spendin' time in a conference with the lad about his interest. He or she knows the boy, and probably better than any other person in the troop knows the personalities and expectations and quality of da local MB counselors. Da SM has heard the feedback of other boys who have used the counselor, has seen the results of da MB Midway in previous years and knows who's runnin' it this year. So yeh have the person who knows the boy and the program and da local resources the best spend some time sittin' with the lad in order to offer good direction. And then yeh say "Forget it, none of that matters, his parents can insist he take the badge with dad because da MBC the SM assigned is black?" Or "it doesn't matter that the SM knows the MB Midway First Aid badge has been taught poorly and in less than 2 hours by an old grump of a district person who no one wants to remove despite da complaints?" That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in terms of our mission. And yes, I've seen exactly those things, I'm not makin' it up. Start from the assumption that the SM is a decent fellow (or lady). Start from the assumption that the boy is a good kid, but still learnin' and growin', and like all boys will be great one day and then test whether yeh care the next. Build in that most parents care a lot about da progress of their kids, but aren't trained and don't always understand the program fully. Add in a touch of Chartered Orgs that have stricter YP rules than da BSA. Bake overnight. Yeh know what yeh get? A system very much like what we have now, eh? Where boys pretty much are encouraged and helped to go for any badge they want that is at all reasonable, where their honest efforts and progress are rewarded and they learn new skills by interactin' with different folks, and where there are a few minor, reasonable checks in da system. Beavah

CalicoPenn, yeh read things da funniest way sometimes. Scoutmasters are tryin' to do their best for the boys in their unit, eh? They're tryin' to find 'em good experiences with the right amount of challenge. They're tryin' to hook 'em up with da best counselors they can, so that they get da most out of the program. I'm not sure what point of character is bein' advanced by havin' a lad go behind da SM's back to find a different counselor for some reason. If there's an issue or concern, the lad should bring it up. And if in your odd world the Scoutmaster is the big bad bully who is just out to be da troglodyte gatekeeper hell-bent on making the lad do more than da requirements, then I reckon da issue isn't blue cards, it's findin' another troop. The intent and meanin' of da Guide to Advancement and the other program literature is pretty clear, eh? 7.0.0.2 It is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to see that a counselor is identified from those approved. The scout may have one in mind, or may want to take advantage of opportunities at Midways and such, but the unit leader should still consider the recommendation and approve it if it is appropriate. 7.0.2.2 Scouts should not have access [to the MB counselor list]. Their interaction with the Scoutmaster in obtaining approval to work on a badge, and obtaining a counselor's name, is an important part of the merit badge plan. 7.0.3.3 A Scout, if he believes he is being treated unfairly, works with his Scoutmaster to find another counselor. Let's see now... that's the Scoutmaster must approve both workin' on da badge and who da counselor is, nobody besides the Scoutmaster and da district is even supposed to have the list to be able to find their own counselor, and if there is a problem the lad works with the Scoutmaster to select a new MBC. That seems pretty clear to me, eh? Happily, it also coincides with what da BSA practice and policy has been for decades. That's because it works best to balance all da competing issues and pressures to the benefit of the boys. Beavah

Yah, hmmmmm.... And yet.... To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor." BSA National Executive Board policy on merit badge counseling It's always fun to have a lad who is willin' to dig in to a topic, but there's a lot more to da world than book learning and writing reports. Scoutin' isn't school, eh? It's a chance to do fun things, to apprentice in a skill and more importantly to apprentice as an adult and a man. Book learnin' is a start, and has its place, but I reckon you're missin' the whole point of the Merit Badge program if that's where yeh end. Hovering adults? Hardly. People with knowledge, skill, and character who take personal interest in sharing their life's work or hobby with an eager young lad. Get out of da classroom, Callooh Callay. Join da rest of us havin' fun with kids in the woods. Beavah

Echo. Echo. Echo. Thanks for your thoughtful post post post though, youngmaster! Now we'll see if it creates a thread resurrection!

Yah, this is an area where the lads know as much as the adults, and often more than most committee members. I've seen stories like Eagle92's play out again and again in different troops. This is definitely somethin' yeh can delegate to the boys, or at least work with 'em as equals. They won't be perfect, but they won't be any worse than the adults, and a lot of the time they'll be better. Beavah

Oh, I reckon there's a fair bit of doubt about it, ScoutNut. One-sided hearsay story from a fellow who admits to havin' a grudge and all. I would remove BluejacketScouter from his commissioner position if he insisted on carryin' on this way. Not because it's necessarily wrong to invite folks to district or council events but because the way he's goin' about it is wrong. He's goin' to be the one losin' kids from Scouting, by settin' up all kinds of conflict and ill will in a Pack. That kind of adult behavior more than any other thing costs us kids and units. The way to go about it is to repair da relationship with the Cubmaster and work with her, eh? The woman is apparently an elementary school teacher, so she is probably more qualified than most folks in that position. Yeh don't work around her. She's goin' to be the person the parents approach for advice and information, and she needs to be that person. Not some DC who comes flittin' in and out. So the way yeh go about this is to build a relationship and then provide support. As a UC, yeh get to know the folks in the pack and figure out who does what and where they are and where they want to go. Maybe this issue isn't the most important one, and instead the priority should be on somethin' else. Perhaps helpin' find a committee person who can help da CM with communication? As a DC, though, the job is to improve da systems of support. Maybe da problem is that the district event information isn't well distributed in a way that she finds helpful or easy to pass along. Gee, we've never seen that anywhere have we? So perhaps this is somethin' that da district program committee needs to address, not the CM. That way, yeh don't just fix da problem for one unit where your wife happens to work at da school, yeh fix it for a whole bunch of units. But whatever yeh do, yeh never, ever undermine the position of the volunteers closest to the families and kids. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, jamist649. Yeh went off and found a troop that you and your boy liked because of their program. Then you're goin' to ask a bunch of us internet critters how it runs? I think you're askin' da wrong folks, mate! Go watch for a bit. It's kind of 'em to ask yeh to step into an ASM role, but it's a real risk for them and for you. I generally tell folks that for their first year in a troop they aren't allowed to say anything bad or respond on their own to any perceived need. When we go to a new environment, we tend to identify all da problems first, eh? We don't always see all of da good things, or how the problems are sometimes a desired feature. So, stick your hands in your pockets, button your lip, and just watch and learn for a bit. Ask questions, sure, help out, sure, but let others lead until yeh can identify all the wonderful things and all of da skills and personalities in the youth and adult leaders. It will be completely different from Cub Scoutin', and if yeh approach it while still thinkin' in your Cub Scouter mindset then you will fail. Take however long yeh need to get into the Boy Scoutin' way of doin' things. In the mean time, take Boy Scout specific trainin', but take it with a grain of salt. It will give yeh a sort of vague, general overview rather than real information on how your troop actually runs. Then take da folks here as bein' people to bounce ideas off of or who can describe other ways of doin' things, but use that for background, not for somethin' to use to push on your son's troop. Courts of Honor - difference from cub award ceremonies is that they'll be more boy-run. Come and stand where you're told. Board of Review - not done by you. A few units may use an ASM in a pinch, in which case follow da lead of the senior BOR members. Scoutmaster Conference - not done by you. Some larger units will have experienced ASMs do SM conferences. If that's the case for your troop, ask to come along as a silent observer for one or two, then ask da SM to come along as a silent observer for the first one or two you do. Duties of the ASM - completely up to the SM, based on your skills and interest. Timeline - Huh? Courts of Honor happen a few times a year. Boards of Review in some troops are "as needed", in others happen monthly or on some other schedule. SM conferences are as needed; some troops do 'em at meetings, some other places. Duties of ASM - expect to be slowly phased in to doin' things as yeh demonstrate that you're a good team player. Beavah

Hiya SN95G%50! So, let me ask yeh this. If there were some money saved up in your bank account that you had worked to earn, how would yeh feel if someone else decided what kind of car you needed and went out and bought it for you? Even though they were never goin' to drive that car, and you were goin' to use it all the time? B

Yah, hmmmm... I think we start by assumin' that merit badge counselors are good people who are givin' their time and energy to boys, have expertise in the field, and are to be respected as friends and colleagues. "Power hungry" almost never applies. Now yeh don't mention what your role is, advancement lady. Are yeh the Advancement Chair for a troop? The District Advancement Chair? Da SM? A parent of the youth in question? What yeh do depends on what your role is. Generally speakin', it's up to the counselor to decide when the lad has met the requirements. I don't know enough about gardenin' to be able to make a judgment in that case. I do believe I know enough about family life and that sounds a bit odd, but it might be well-intentioned. The counselor might have learned, for example, that sometimes things change and a boy who only has 5 laid out in the beginnin' runs into some issues and doesn't finish, but that if yeh have 7 laid out in the beginning then it's more likely that he'll meet the requirement of havin' done 5 at the end. So there might be a madness to the method so as to benefit the boy. If you're the SM, yah, yeh can always opt to send your scouts to da "easiest" counselor if that's what yeh value. Certainly, there are times when yeh learn that a particular lady or fellow has been too much of a poor fit for your boys or your program so as to decide to go somewhere else. I'd encourage yeh to chat with da MBC first. If you're the troop AC, I'm not sure this is your issue, eh? I'd refer it to the SM. If you're the DAC or someone on da district or council committee, then I'd file it away for a bit until yeh got multiple complaints about an individual. Then it might be worth havin' a chat or lookin' in on things. Beavah

Murder is a good example. I don't need "natural law" to tell me that murder is wrong. For that matter, I don't need a book that tells me that God issued a commandment against murder, to know that murder is wrong. Yah, I reckon that's exactly the point, eh? Yeh just made da argument for natural law. A book that tells yeh God's will yeh need in order to learn and understand divine positive law. Natural law yeh are able to perceive yourself, from da nature of things and of human society. Just like da law of gravity. Now, it is also true that just because we are able to perceive natural law doesn't mean that we always get it right on the details. Our perceptions of gravity weren't exact until Newton. Study and listening to others, especially when there has been broad consensus, helps us to perceive natural law properly. Just as it does with da natural law of gravity. And, too, we have our own human desires, which can run contrary to natural law, eh? The desire to have our own way. The desire to rule. So we have seen humans justify in their own minds all kinds of things contrary to da natural law against murder than most of us perceive clearly. Just as we see people's culture sometimes blind 'em to da natural laws of medicine, or people's desire for wealth blind 'em to the natural effects of pollution. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... BluejacketScouter, as a Council Commish, you and I would be havin' a "come to Beavah" meetin' right about now. What are yeh doin', mate? Yeh have stepped over da line here at least half a dozen times, and you're somehow surprised that has compromised your relationship with and access to the unit? Why should that be surprising? Havin' discovered that your approach has completely failed, yeh want to double-down on that approach? It worked so well da first time, let's do more stuff behind the Cubmaster's back? As a Commissioner, yeh need to step up and apologize for goin' behind the cubmaster's back. Not just honor the request, but assure her it was unintentional and will never happen again. Only after you've repaired the relationship and built a new foundation of trust by bein' a good servant leader would I even consider makin' any suggestions. Now, can I ask what your real role is? Here yeh seem to be implyin' that you're a UC. In da other thread yeh imply you're a DC. Which is it? As a DC, why are yeh muckin' around at this level when it's da UC's role? And why in da world as either a UC or a DC would yeh ever be meeting with the Chartered Organization? That's da DE's role. Da commissioners job is to work with da CO's volunteers, not with da CO. Please don't take this da wrong way, but I think yeh need to take a break for a bit and decide what role yeh really want in Scoutin'. Right now it seems you're tryin' to do everybody's job but your own. What is the most fun for you? What keeps yeh the most energized? Is it workin' with boys and parents? Then yeh need to find a Cubmaster job. Is it coachin' and encouragin' adult peers? That's da UC's role. Is it coachin' the coaches? That's the proper role of da DC. Is it interfacin' with the customer CO on behalf of da BSA? That's the DE. Once yeh decide where your real passion lies, go and do that job. Do that job well. Do only that job. Yeh will be much happier for it, and Scoutin' will be much stronger. Beavah

Scout Salute! Two. May the Great Scoutmaster welcome him to His campfire, there to join da other great adventurers, explorers, and teachers who have gone before us to da Final Frontier. Beavah

Can anyone reconcile those two sentences? Sure. It was BSA24's bit that didn't make any sense. Natural law is just a form of natural philosophy, eh? It says that there are natural rules which govern human relationships and human societies. Just like other forms of natural philosophy, the claim is that those rules are knowable from a careful study of nature combined with rational intellect. It is da ethical philosophy that mirrors science in some ways. That doesn't mean da rules are obvious or don't require careful study and some degree of rigor. Gravitational relativity isn't obvious, and we see all kinds of folks claim "science" for things like scientific creationism which aren't science at all. Just like we see folks who don't really grok natural law make spurious ethical claims on that basis, or dismiss it entirely without any real understandin' or study. Nuthin' stops humans from being irrational. So yah, sure, murder exists in nature. Particularly " in crowded or undernourished conditions" as BSA24 points out about another phenomenon. We would say, however, that murder is contrary to da natural law, because when a society tolerates murder, that tolerance is toxic to da long term health of individuals and society. We've conducted that experiment far too often, always with da same result. Da conclusion is accessible by reason and observation alone, without any need for faith. As are da natural law "virtues" like Justice, and Prudence, and Temperance. Much public health in da U.S. is affected by (lack of) Temperance, eh? The need for temperance and da consequences for smokin' and overeatin' and such is clear, but just because the observed data and reason are there does not mean everyone will avoid bein' self-destructive. Now, us faithful folks wouldn't stop at natural law, eh? We also believe in divine positive law, and divine virtues which can't be arrived at through reason and observation. In fact, in many ways da Scout Oath and Law are based on divine rather than natural law. But for murder? Nah, that may be natural, but it's contrary to natural law. Beavah

The unit he is with is one of the most active outdoor troops in the council and is 85 years old. They have as many as 4 summer options, including high adventure as one, either a National base or Sierras, though they have done some in Oregon and Utah. Definitely not a do the merit badge at troop meeting troop, nor LDS. Yah, glad to hear it about da MBs. Personally, I'm never too impressed by activity lists. I've found when yeh just look at activities/activity count, yeh don't really get a clear picture. It's possible with active adults and enough monetary resources to run a lot of activities, but that doesn't really tell yeh anything about what the lads are learning, or how well they're really being challenged. Real depth of youth leadership in a car-campin' troop is better than a lot of highly guided "high adventure". It's also interestin' to note that the young lad's participation in his troop was a bit lower than what I guestimated, given their activity level. Again, I'm not judgin' the lad. I am respondin' to what I would consider a red flag for the program, the program's long-term outcomes for kids, and/or the adults' experience in mentoring bright, articulate young fellows. What you're describin' in terms of the boy's program experience is "average" for an active troop's second year scouts. What you're describin' as the rank outcome for that level of program contact seems out of whack. It's just a red flag, though, not a conclusion. The lad may be special, may have come in with a lot more outdoor and leadership skill because of his family/other activities. As a commish, though, it'd be the sort of thing I'd look to follow up on, to see if it's actually an issue or if it's a mark of da "next thing" that a unit needs to think about in order to improve. As tedious as it can be, there's always a "next thing", eh? That's how we keep improvin'. Good on the lad, though, and thanks for sharin' your perspective. If yeh happen to keep track, I reckon we'd all be curious about what da longer term outcomes look like. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, jamist649, sorry to hear of your experience. Sometimes folks hang around longer than they should. Sometimes, too, that's because they feel nobody is steppin' up. I don't think yeh need to worry too much about it. I expect your son is goin' to tell his friends even if you don't. Whether yeh tell the parents depends on your relationship with them. Do yeh hang out together? Get together as friends? Then yeh tell 'em, absolutely. Heck, it will probably just come up the next time yeh get together. If they aren't really friends so that yeh don't really get together, then it would feel a bit odd to me. Leave it to your son. Good luck with da new program. Now make this one work! Beavah

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He has been on over 50 nights of camping, about a quarter backpacks over 5 miles. Yah, so averagin' about 8 weekends a year and two summer camps, includin' a few short backpack treks. That's about what I'd expect from a normally active second-year scout in a decent program. It's not up to da level of an "all-in" scout in a go-getter program at that age, eh? Also not near a typical Eagle. Certainly, though, it's right in line with a FCFY/advancement focus program. Just curious, skeptic, did yeh get into how many of those campouts he planned himself, or led? How many were patrol outings? I expect da troop does a lot of MBs at troop meetings? Was this an LDS unit? I may be wrong, but these boards have at least few conversations about the program being "boy led". It is interesting to find that Beaverrr and Mad Max take the different approach of controlling progression and constraining advancement, putting the control of the program into the pages of some unwritten book. Nope, not controlling or constrainin'. That's all in your imagination. "Boy led" or "Youth Leadership" is a different method of Scoutin' than advancement. It refers to boys leading others, not just themselves. Things like planning their own patrol outings, and leading them; managin' the troop budget as well as their own; being responsible for safety, and goal-setting for the troop, and takin' care of the homesick lad at camp. I applaud the lad for his effort. Any way yeh cut it, even in da most advancement-milled program with pushy parents, gettin' to Eagle at such an age is an achievement. But if I were workin' with da unit, I'd spend a bit of time with 'em on whether they're meetin' their final goals for youth. What's the harvest really look like? For some programs, like LDS, this is really where they want to be, and usin' the program this way fits with their mission. That's fine. In other units, though, they might benefit from a nudge here or there to encourage as much emphasis on da other methods as on advancement. Beavah

I Eagles at 15 year old. Opinion is no replacement for facts. Nor is anecdote da singular of data. I don't think it needs to be an argument, charmoc. Just different thoughtful perspectives, which in turn depend on what we each care about for kids. Every now and again I'm able to talk a few folks from a rapid-advancement troop into goin' and spendin' some time with one of the other sort. They usually come back saying "hey, we have to think about our program differently." But not always. Beavah

Yah, WasE61, yeh missed 8) Old gum-toothed Beavah married to a transgendered s/he packsaddle. I'm sure I deserved that for sendin' da thread off into polygamy as an experiment. But just to get back at him.... 9) Packsaddle doin' the deed with many furry flat-tailed critters and other mammals. Hey, if we're not worried about Y chromosomes, why worry about chromosomes at all? Beavah

A scout who earns Eagle at the age of 13-14 has not benefited fully form the journey but its OK for a scout to get to Life, have most of the Eagle requirements done, get more heavily involved with other outside activities and at 17 years 11 months comes back and finished the requirements for Eagle has benefited more? Yah, charmoc, I don't remember sayin' that. Have I been mutterin' in my sleep again? I'm not a fellow who buys into da "heavily involved in outside activities" bit, eh? I think if yeh aren't participatin' in Scouting, yeh aren't an active member. If I'm on da swim team, and I get "heavily involved in outside activities" like Scouting, then I reckon I'm not goin' to be on da swim team very long. Scoutin' is a wonderful program that can work well from age 11 all the way to age 18. Da challenge can grow from just tryin' to stay warm in a rainstorm to a level of planning and leadership that no other school activity can come close to. Yeh can take da best, brightest, most athletic lad and keep him completely challenged and engaged for seven years in a troop, growin' the whole time. If yeh aren't doin' that but yeh want to, then I think yeh have to look at your program and make some changes. I'd gently and humbly suggest that perhaps, just maybe, one of those changes is lookin' at advancement differently in da context of all da other methods, eh? Yeh aren't goin' to hold your best and brightest until age 18 to pursue an award that a loquacious lad can earn at age 12. Beavah

I think "natural law" is one of those things that you can use to make just about any argument you wish. Well, one can make any argument yeh wish about anything, eh? We see climate change deniers in science, Westboro Baptist nutjobs in religion, gold-standard folks in economics. Havin' the form to make an argument is different than actually studyin' the world with an open mind and lettin' it tell yeh what's real. Just because knowledge can be approached and developed with reason doesn't mean everybody is reasonable. Natural law would suggest that there are some behaviors which are to a greater or lesser degree toxic for humans and human society. But just like dumpin' lots of CO2 into the atmosphere may be toxic in the longer term for da world's climate, there are lots of people who are makin' money and feelin' powerful mining coal and sellin' oil. They don't want to change their lifestyle. They don't want to give up their lusts. Drill, baby, drill! Don't tell me what to do. They distrust those liberal science types who have the audacity to call 'em out on Natural Law in public. No different here, eh? Just as SeattlePioneer describes, even though some behaviors are toxic to human society in da longer run, our lusts and our identifyin' only with our social group instead of all of society or humanity cloud reason and our ability to recognize Natural Law. We'll make just about any argument we wish so that we can keep doin' what feels good, what makes us powerful as individuals, or what supports da "tribe" we identify with. Even daffy stuff like Trevorum's hypothesis. Humans are emotional creatures, eh? Not always rational ones. The societal result from such experiments is always the same, though. It conforms to Natural Law. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, pohsuwed, thanks for da comeback, eh? I think if yeh read my post carefully, you'll find that I started out with a congratulation for the young man, his family, and his troop. Not sure how yeh missed that, since it was in da first line. But I do talk funny, eh? Now that we're done congratulatin' folks all around, though, there's a different question on the table. The question is one that applies not to any particular lad or unit, but how we all think about the scouting program, and how to use it best. I'm a commish, eh? So I'm all about helpin' units think about what they're doin' and think about how to improve the outcomes for their kids. I'm talkin' now about general unit program, not about this specific boy. To my mind, we get da best results when we keep kids in Scouting for 7 years, and when throughout those seven years we are still using all the methods. Advancement is one method of Scoutin', and Eagle is the peak (and generally the end) of that method. So for this boy, if he stays in, he'll have 5 years of Scoutin' missing one leg of da table. And for him, it appears to be a leg he values a great deal. Generally speakin' as well, when boys and troops show such rapid advancement, other Methods are given less play. So when we talk about general program advice, rapid advancement tends to distort da program. Da focus becomes on the requirements as bein' what's relevant, not on the boy. So what I see almost all of da time with Young Eagles is a lot of parent and adult push, a program that's too advancement-focused, and perhaps a bright, articulate young lad who dazzles adults, but who the adults don't always challenge enough. What I see works better is when those same lads experience a program that challenges 'em more deeply across all of da Methods for a longer stretch of time. That means yeh have to see da requirements not as the Journey, but as just a tool - an aid along the Journey, like a map. Yep, yeh can just follow da map and get to da destination fast and move on to the next thing. That's not a Journey, though. It's the drive to the trailhead. The Journey is lookin' at da plants, checkin' out the side trails, takin' a swim along the way, bushwhacking a short cut off-trail, pushin' yourself to do extra and more than yeh thought possible, helping and supportin' the other fellows in your patrol, gettin' rained on and havin' da trail washed out and helpin' rebuild, singin' together, playin' pranks, stoppin' and havin' a mud-fight, relaxin' in the sunset and sayin' a prayer to the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts for the beauty of His wild lands. Each chartered organization and unit gets to set their own goals of course. For me, though, da goals I prefer and value are long-term growth and development of young men. Scoutin' is da best program in the world for that, eh? But yeh need a longer term. Beavah

Nah, I expect if it came up the person would be removed by their Chartered Organization or the BSA. But it does raise da societal question, eh? If yeh are in favor of gay marriage, why not polygamy (gay or straight)? Beavah

Yah, I'm just curious, and maybe da folks on da liberal side of the fence can satisfy my curiosity. Da BSA in Cub and Boy scouting "bans" girls as youth members, atheists as youth or adult members, and gays as adult members. So why is all da current media hysteria so focused on gays as a adult members? After all, girls and atheists are far more well-accepted in society. While some areas get mildly annoyed by da behavior of atheists with respect to Christmas displays and other art, we otherwise have no issues. Coed programs and matching girls programs are the norm, rather than the exception. In fact, it's hard to even find exceptions any more. So why da focus on gay adult leaders? Why not on kids? Why not on other inclusiveness? The vast majority of states still prohibit marriage for gay adults, eh? So compared with issues of youth gender or belief, the notion is much less acceptable. Just curious. Beavah

If you don't have training and experience, making judgments on the fly especially against expert advice you are aware of is unlikely to be a good idea. Well, you're goin' to be faced with needin' to make a judgment regardless. As I tell every scouter and youth leader, not doin' something is as much of a choice as doin' something. But yep, I agree with what I think yeh mean here. An inexperienced person should strongly consider expert advice and make an effort to understand it before they ever consider simply ignorin' it. That's why folks here were lookin' for da risk assessment figures on wheelbarrows and carts, eh? Because da actual risks might not be intuitive, and we might discover that RichardB actually can show that so many scouts are injured by wheelbarrows each year that it merits a prohibition. That sort of expert input helps inform everyone's judgment, eh? Now not only do we understand da reason for the ban, but we also understand da mechanisms and conditions where it may be OK to make an exception. Da problem with epinephrine is that it is largely on da controlled substances list because of da needles, and the risk of usin' the injectors for drug abuse. Until very recently, yeh could buy epinephrine inhalers over the counter which had da same concentration drug delivered more quickly; they were removed from da OTC market for environmental reasons, and I presume for da potential as a precursor in methamphetamine production. So when yeh understand that da reason for the "expert" rules has to do with a general desire to protect society from da risks of drug abuse, then yeh can also understand that makin' an exception for use in an emergent case where those risks don't apply is a reasonable thing. Now, I think as Scouters, one of the things we should teach scouts is that it's not enough just to follow any rule blindly. Our duty as citizens and particularly when we're responsible for others is to inform ourselves, and understand da purpose and scope and intent of the rule. That's how we are prepared to exercise better judgment, and not make decisions either to act or not to act completely "on the fly." Beavah