Beavah

SR540, you have to read that charter agreement, eh? And the other BSA materials. And the BSA's legal filings. The Chartered Org. agrees to run a youth program "according to its own policies and guidelines" (as well as those of the BSA). The "troop is owned by a chartered organization." The BSA "respect the aims and objectives of the organization and offer the resources of Scouting to help in meeting those objectives." The BSA "provides the program [materials] and support services, and the chartered organization provides the adult leadership and uses the program to accomplish its goals for youth." The CO's goals. The CO's ownership. The CO's policies. What's more, the legal structure in terms of liability and insurance coverage makes it crystal clear that this is the CO's sandbox. Theirs is the responsibility and liability. Like it or not, dat's the structure of scoutin', eh? That approach is why we have big organization partners like LDS, Catholics, and Methodists. If you want a centralized organization with absolute control over it's own sandbox, you'll have to quit the BSA and go start your own program. In the U.S., you just won't be able to call it Scouting.

Yah, SR540 and fellow Beavah, I wasn't meanin' to pick on you, eh? It's just your comments and the ones in the Venture Patrol thread about how Venture Patrol kids tended to form into an "elitist clique" and stop helpin' their juniors kind of intersected in my addled brain. But the discussion is interestin', isn't it? We're talkin' about how "Adult Relationships" applies to the troop leadership in terms of leadership development/trainin'. But when does it apply to the 1st year boy? The 2nd class boy? Does he not get our friendship and attention except at SM conferences? How do we model the "servant leadership" of NYLT if we are off in our own high-class adult clique? Yah, we have to let them lead, and that sometimes does mean gettin' out of the way, particularly if we make 'em nervous. But sometimes it might just mean that we follow them, and demonstrate good followership. Or perhaps we teach leadership by friendly collaboration and shared responsibility, as though they were real adults, or... I'm curious though why you didn't have the boys do the rigging and run the climbing (naturally with appropriate supervision where needed). Those are skills as easily taught as fire-building. Taking over that kind of safety-related task is not what I was talkin' about - indeed, I think kids should be learnin' how to handle that kind of safety-related task. What I was talkin' about was climbing with them, encouragin' the scared boy, celebratin' the skills of the strong climbers, thankin' the youth climbing leaders, sittin' on the rocks and hangin' out. Then goin' back to camp and helpin' 'em clean up, sharing chores, spendin' time with the PL consoling the acrophobic boy who didn't get too far, playin' Euchre with a group, etc. The message shouldn't be that the cool people only come out to take charge of the cool stuff. It should be that the cool people share our life, sometimes as helpers, sometimes as friends and fellow participants. How do yeh develop adult relationships?

Anarchist has it backwards. It's the CO's sandbox. Their units, their program, their rules. Da BSA is askin' to play in their house. That's why LDS, RC's, UM's, etc. seem to wield so much influence. They can kick the BSA out. As a unit voluteer, you work for and on behalf of your CO. Your first obligation is to follow their lead and their rules. I expect most CO's are respectful of personal conscience, and at least allow, if not encourage, dialogue and discussion of ethical issues, including periods of doubt and questioning by both youth and adults.

Didn't miss it, Ed. My point was that being available (come get me if you need me) isn't the same as being "present" as in building ongoing relationships. It's the difference between the police (available by calling 911) and a friend. CA, I don't think my example is .1% at all, but if it is in your area, great. Yah, yeh talk about how having a neat-and-cool "adult patrol" is a great example, but I don't buy it. At best, it's a neutral example, because the kids don't see it in action ... the interactions, the shared work, etc. At worst, It's a bad example, because the kids see that the coolest people stay in their cool clique in their high-class "neighborhood" with the best food (and often gear), while the inexperienced and poor suffer with their burned pancakes. The example the kids need is that the cool adult who knows more works side by side with them, not sits off with his buddies. They need to see the example of an adult being assigned pot-cleaning duty by the (youth) PL, and agreeing cheerfully, etc. Adult relationships should be us livin' in their neighborhood, eh? At least metaphorically. Well, IMO... But the point is that Patrol Method is only one method, and is balanced by others. We celebrate this notion of the "separate adults," but that ain't scoutin'. How do you work as hard on the adult relationships method as the adult patrol method?

We in da upper midwest hate the February crossovers, eh? Any troop dat's runnin' an age-appropriate program has their boys out doin' fun stuff campin' in the snow and rain and mud of winter and spring. But throwin' a 10-year-old 5th grader into that as their first campout? Nah. Pretty dumb, eh? Far better to wait until May at least. And in these days of hyper-parented youth, skippin' camp the first year might be best for some kids. If they've never been out of mom's or dad's sight for longer than a couple of hours, they need a bunch of indoor sleepovers and weekends and gettin' comfortable with independence before they get dumped into BSA camp with smelly canvas wall tents filled with spiders.

IMO adults who function as a patrol should function AS A PATROL ... this means doing their own grub, thank you. It's important to remember that there's no such thing as an adult patrol anywhere in da BSA literature or program. Quite the opposite, eh? Adults are supposed to be present to and interact with kids... taking interest in them, encouraging them, teaching and learning from them, being an example. What better place to develop relationships then when breaking bread together? Yah, yah, troops with a lot of parent participants often have to be practical and form an adult area just to keep da parents out of the kids hair all the time. But that's a management technique, not a scouting method. And it should not replace or weaken Adult Relationships. Youth should learn by doing under the guidance of a kind mentor. Usually we (the adults) try to filter everything to the Troop through the SPL & ASPL. Why? That may be the case for leadership stuff, but not for everything. Sittin' with a patrol drinkin' cocoa and talkin' about skunks; sharing kitchen chores like cleaning a dirty pot (under the PL's direction), helpin' the patrol leader show how to set up a tent. Washing their feet, Ed. Washing their feet. Those who would be examples of leadership must be the servants of all. Bein' available isn't Adult Relationships. Bein' present is.

It's a complex world out there. If I buy a pair of low-cost sneakers, am I in fact participating in the oppression of children in Asia, the dissolution of the families of American workers, and the funding of a despotic regime? Some think so. If that's the way you feel about the BSA, then you should quit. I suspect most of us when we buy sneakers (or bananas, or software, or...) are just buying sneakers. We recognize that clothing our families at a reasonable price is a good thing, and that we are so far down the supply chain that there's nothing our buying or not buying sneakers is going to do to change the wider world. So we go with the good thing, and just click through the license agreement or the Declaration of Religious Principle as just "one of those things we put up with." Despite perhaps some queasiness wishing we had better choices, and some small efforts to write or contribute cash to try to change things a little. Same deal with da BSA. We license the program or volunteer to do a good thing for kids as end-users. We might feel some queasiness recognizing that the click-through agreement is inane or that our couple of registration dollars are going to be used poorly, but we live with it. Making "levels of significance" choices are a part of livin' in an interconnected world. Some things ya just accept as bein' insignificant or otherwise out of your control. Either that, or you go barricade yourself in a cabin in Montana, or surrender all your personal ethics bein' "loyal" to others. That works for most of us most of the time, despite the goodwilled zealots who try to push our choices to the extremes.

In the thread on powerful scoutmasters, SR540Beaver writes: Heck, the adults stay in the adult area. We have an SPL, ASPL's and PL's that are in charge over in the boy area. We come over if asked or if we see something that needs to be addressed. I hear this a lot here and other places. Youth Leadership and Patrol Method do need some "space" to work... when da boys are ready. But it seems to me that we have an obligation to balance that with other methods like Adult Relationships and Values. Boys can't benefit from adult relationships if adults are off in their own "clique" most of the time, and we aren't the best example of the Oath and Law if we show them that those who are the most experienced stay aloof and unhelpful. This also came up in the Venture Patrol thread, eh? Where Venture Patrols in several troops became elitist. Well, how elitest is it for the Adult Patrol, the most experienced people on a campout, to stay by themselves, hangin' out with each other instead of helpin' younger folks, and (worst) expectin' to be served (coffee, food) and give orders to the boys? I've never thought this was very good scoutin'. What say da group?

Lisa'bob's version is, I think, the official BSA version. Patrols should be permanent and not age-based, with older boys leading younger boys. The Venture Patrol (aka Senior Patrol, aka PLC, aka OA members, aka Venturing Crew dual-registered boys) provides higher adventure age-appropriate challenges for the older boy leaders. This keeps them involved in having fun. Plus, it builds their skills and leadership abilities so that they can better serve the younger members in their patrols and troop. Together, it gives the younger boys something to look up to and work for. The Venture Patrol (aka...) will always be an elite group, as in a group that is more highly skilled and is looked up to. Whether it becomes an elitist group depends on the example being set by the Venture ASM/SM/Crew Advisor/Lodge Advisor/parents. If the elite adults consistently provide an example of selfless and cheerful service, then so will da boys, eh? But if the elite adults camp off by themselves, with their own "special" food, mostly hangin' out with each other, then that's naturally the example the boys will follow.

A Scout is Mentally Awake. He/she recognizes the nature of organizations and systems, the limits of policies, and the ethical need to balance strict adherence to policy with compassion, mercy, and understanding. A Scout Helps other people at all times. So if there is a mechanism, like the scouting movement, which provides a wonderful way to help youth learn and grow, a mentally awake scout uses that mechanism for what it's worth. Despite its weaknesses and failures, from policy silliness to corrupt executives, you use the good and work around the bad. Same as all of us do in our religious communities, jobs, and families. It would be a sadness and an evil if a person quit his church, his job, and his family the moment he disagreed with any of them on an issue. A Scout is Courteous and Kind He/she recognizes that people of good will have differences of opinion in some areas, and respects and welcomes that discourse... within a church, within a job, within a family. It would be a sadness and an evil if such differences were not discussed openly and respectfully. and finally, the First Obligation of the Oath is duty to God An honorable scout lives by his/her faith first... before duty to country, before duty to others like "Obedience", before even duty to self. It is unreasonable, unfair, and unethical for those of us who support the BSA's position based on our duty to God to expect our brothers and sisters not to live up to their duty to God to try to change things. Within our family. So I think a good Scout(er) might oppose the policy, work around it, work to change it, just ignore it in the interest of compassion, etc.... all so long as he/she doesn't do more damage to the movement and community. Sometimes being right can hurt a group more than going along. And I think a good Scout(er) understands and respects his/her fellows who might disagree, and rather than shouting "Loyalty and Obedience uber alles!", allows some compassion and flexibility. Sometimes being right can hurt a group more than going along. When those two are finally exhausted, I think we listen. A lot. And try to work together to do what makes sense for kids.

Current projections and statistics show that this coming generation may be the first in this nations history that doesn't have an automatic 'expectation' of exceeding their parents standard of living! Yah, that's because this coming generation's parents are the first one to saddle their children with an enormous national debt on top of an expectation that their children will support them with social security and medicare into their 90s. One kid today will support twice da number of old folks than we did, at 4 times the cost because of the increased medical costs and expectations for quality of life. If they don't learn to be efficient workers instead of chore-doers, we're doomed. And that's what we're naturally teachin' em. Kids these days are more dedicated musicians and athletes and scouts than they were. They have less time free-playin' around the neighborhood, which I think hurts. As Hunt points out, they're learnin' statistics in 6th grade that I didn't learn until college, and anyone who's seen the workouts for the youth "travel leagues" knows that soccer/swimming/hockey is a job. It's all nice to get homey and quaint about chores good old days, back when ya didn't need a college degree to earn a livin' wage, and the American people weren't in the habit of votin' themselves largesse at their kids' expense. But times have changed.

The reason some of the boys talked with me is because they don't think they can talk with the Scoutmaster or the CC. I don't want to lead them in the wrong direction and I understand how the chain of command works in Boy Scouts. Apparently not, eh? The thing to do here is to en-Courage the boys to buck up and go talk to da Scoutmaster. Ya don't want to be teachin' boys to be goin' around behind people's backs talkin' and complainin' about them. You want them to learn that a man of character approaches friends politely and respectfully and firmly with concerns. It's the boys' troop. The SPL and ASPL should go share the youth concerns with the SM. I doubt that the SM will eat them.

Kudu does school nights for Boy Scouts pretty successfully. I've seen it work for a few troops, but not dat often. Da key is in a jazzy, kid-centered presentation and good follow-up. One old district I was in did pretty good with fliers where da youth were doin' other things... soccer leagues, hockey leagues, skate parks & shops, chess clubs, etc. Active kids need somethin' for the off season. Parents don't feel right unless they're drivin' their kid somewhere, eh? It'd help if troops or districts had a decent web presence that actually appealed to kids and parents, and provided good information. Most first or second contacts these days are online.

I think ya have to trust people when they say their plans fell through at the last minute, eh? These people are clearly givin' their all for your son and a lot of other boys... he's SM, and she's runnin' the camporee? Ya only get a real license to complain when you're doin' as much work. Let it go unless it happens again... and then your job is just to give a heads up to the CC.

I'm not so hard on parents as the author of that column, eh? I think it's a different world now. We've learned that it pays to specialize... that payin' a guy who's good at painting to paint your bedroom is more economically efficient and leads to a higher quality of life for both you and the painter. Chores are being outsourced, so that people can spend their time more productively on things they enjoy and are good at. That's the real world that our kids are goin' to grow up in. And it's better than the one we grew up in. I did my share of lawn mowin' back in the day. The fights I had with my parents over it damaged our relationship for years, and I have some residual hearin' loss from all the hours with that goldarned mower. The irony is that I would have worked ten times harder to help the family with other tasks I cared about and was good at. Did a great job wit all da carpentry for the paddock fencin'. But mowin' was my chore, eh? Supposed to teach character. Cow pies! Dat doesn't mean kids should live self-indulgent video-headed lives either, eh? They should be expected to grow and explore and play and be kids and contribute according to their age, gifts, and interests to the family and community. Service, not chores. Love, not (just) obligation. Invest in that. Outsource da rest.

I hear that the American Association of Gay and Lesbian Horseradish Growers are upset with BSA policies as well. Now dat's gettin' serious, eh?! Those of us who love a healthy dose of horseradish on our brats* might just up and revolt if our supplies are threatened! * brats (BrAHts) n.: 1. Slang form for bratwurst or other grillable sausage served in the upper midwest as a staple foodstuff from May through the start of deer season. As distinct from 2. BRAAts, n. young men who don't learn good behavior and value through scouting programs.

Yah, if I were an ALA member, the thing I'd be concerned about is the anti-Mormon bigotry of this policy statement. One wonders if they're also going to stop ALA reading programs that work through the African-American church communities, because they also oppose homosexuality on ethical grounds. Wow, a bunch of librarians denyin' urban youth reading programs.

We should teach the boys to use da right tool for the job, eh? That's what is really meant by safety. The number of injuries from non-locking folding-blade knives is way higher than from sheath knives. And there are plenty of perfectly safe sheaths for carrying fixed bladed knives in. Thanks, anarchist, I hadn't even thought about river rescue knives. I carry one all the time, as should anyone who uses rescue ropes in water situations, at least in movin' water.

A volunteer is a volunteer, eh? It's somethin' you do with your free time and cash because you enjoy it. No paid professional educator should be the subject of discourtesy, parent belligerence, or the like, though sadly it's common enough. But should a volunteer put up with it? No way. A few of us like Eamonn or F might have a stubborn streak... or, well, a callin' to educate the rude ones. But that's our choice with our own volunteer time. A good person walkin' away and leavin' them with the job to do might be as good a lesson anyway. Go find yourself a fun pack to give your time to.

OK, all this stuff about investments and stock options and educational currency trading futures is gettin' a bit over the top, eh? For an elementary school boy, your "best investment" is probably no investment at all... it's free play. Boys who get to run around, climb trees, ride their bikes around the neighborhood, hang with friends, etc. learn all kinds of life lessons. They get comfortable and confident being self-directed without being "bored." They deal with issues of leadership and followership and comfort and discomfort without access to mommy. As boys grow, that self-directed free play will naturally "morph" in middle school and high school to self-directed activity choices. Boys will start to fill up their calendar with fun things that require more time and practice, not because "organized" is good for them, but because they need more challenge and deeper engagement for their free play. Down the road, this deeper engagement and confidence will become a career, lifelong interests/hobbies, a spouse and family of his own. All without any "active investment management" by parents. Only regular deposits of love and encouragement, compounded daily. Boy Scouting fits a boy's growth far better than most other activities because it meets the need for more challenge and deeper engagement without taking away the other aspects of free play - self direction, natural leadership and followership, success and discomfort without access to mommy, and good old fashioned dirt. Other activities, though, also work well and even better for different boys, provided they are allowed to make their own decisions about what they choose to play with .... because their parents support play and growth and fun and learning, not "organization" and "advancement." If ya want to be the best parent you can be, stop investin'. Let your son play.

When is it a Boy Scout outing versus a group of friends getting together to go shoot each other? When the PLC plans it? Nope. Has to be approved by the committee as an official event and put on the calendar. Most PLC members are friends. They plan to do all kinds of things together that aren't scout activities, but that do involve only scouts. When it is announced at a meeting? Nope. Lots of troops announce all kinds of community events at meetings. "Here's an opportunity for service if anyone is interested." "Here's what's goin' on in the CO's other youth programs." "Billy is havin' a birthday party on Saturday and you're all invited." etc. When a patrol sets it up during a patrol meeting? Nope. Kids in patrols are friends. They set up all kinds of things at a patrol meeting. "Hey, guys, let's go mountain bikin' at the park tomorrow after school!" "You guys want to hit the video arcade after da meetin'? I'll call my dad and tell him to pick us up there." "I need help with the history test on Thursday. Any of you guys free and want to study together?" Where is the line? When it's approved by the committee as an official troop (as opposed to CO) event. The ethics here are interestin', because paintball, lasertag, etc. are not safety issues. Paintball has a huge youth user community and a better safety record overall than the BSA and the other outdoor activies that we allow. And there's zero association with playin (paintball, squirtguns, lasertag, cops and robbers, etc.) with youth gun violence. So makin' it a safety issue is a flat-out lie. How citizens should respond when an authority imposes restrictions on freedom on the basis of a deliberate lie is an interestin' ethical question with obvious broader implications in the larger climate of today's America. Disobedience, legal work-arounds, subterfuge, lobbying, legal challenges, negative publicity/public embarrassment of the authority, immigration to a different authority's jurisdiction, and revolution by ballot or active resistance are all responses that men of character have chosen throughout history. But interestingly, most of us in America would consider it a flaw of character and an unethical choice to just go along with such an authority.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Is this normal troop behavior? No. Is it common enough to be recognizable? Yes. Not all adults have the character, fortitude, and sense of humor to deal with teenage boys as a group in terms of setting expectations and discipline. For a lot of parents, dealing with one teenager is enough of a challenge, eh? So things tend toward laxity, or the opposite extreme of adult rulesmongering. About half of your post talks about uniforming. Dat's a symptom and not a cause. I wouldn't start with worryin' about that. Teenagers and clothes is a battle that you sometimes have to lose so as to win the important things. Da issue is the negative behaviors, and da lack of positive behaviors. What can you do? Bring it to adults' attention gently and firmly, so it "gets kicked up a notch" in their brains. Get training. Come on trips. Recruit other adults (parents and non-parents) who also recognize the problems and who have the "character,fortitude, and sense of humor" to be adult leaders. Encourage and support and provide "special opportunities" to the "bright light" youth, so that kids see honor has its rewards. Reality is, though, until you get a SM/ASM group who cares enough about da kids to offer some structure and discipline, this isn't goin' to change. Kids always test the limits; it's their way of askin' the adults if they really care about them.

If our organization, BSA, believes that paintball or laser is not an inappropriate activity, then as Scouters, we CANNOT promote or in any way encourage that activity, or to sneakily suggest loopholes. To do so, at odds with the organization to which we belong and believe in, is an unethical choice. Whoa, Nelly! Egads. Somebody needs to wake this boy up with a good whack upside da head with a Committee Handbook. I'm a big BSA supporter and a longtime volunteer, but da BSA isn't a religion. If it happens to decide that huntin' is bad, that doesn't mean I'm goin' to Scouter Hell for promotin' the huntin' camp trip with my buddies and my son on openin' day of deer season this year. A Scouter can't "promote or in any way encourage"... gimme a break. A unit committee should not approve as a scheduled BSA unit event is all. If a scouter wants to run a paintball tournament on his own time, or a CO wants to run a paintball event on their own dime, that's not anyone's business but theirs. Heck, a Scouter might own a paintball establishment (or martial arts dojo, or...) Sheesh. Dumb discussions like this one just highlight how dumb this particular rule is in the first place. Fastest growin' youth outdoor adventure sport with a safety record that beats ours hands down, and we don't want any part of it. Whatever. Da kids vote with their feet, eh? At least we get to teach 'em about makin' smart decisions when adults are bein' dumb.

Yah, OK. We've all given It's Me some good advice and/or a good slap in the face to try to make him think different, eh? But yeh know, as a commish I spent a lot of time talkin' to boys at summer camp from different troops. And I've got to say, there are a heck of a lot of boys who thought about quitting when they were webelos. Even a few who did quit, and only later came back after hearin' from their friends that Boy Scoutin' was so much better. Poor webelos programs dat lose us kids and burn out parents are as much the norm as the exception. In fact, da BSA keeps encouragin' earlier and earlier "crossovers" and joint campouts to "fix" this problem, rather than fixin' the problem. The webelos program, and the webelos-level camping rules and expectations, and the kind of adventures that are age-appropriate for that group, all need a good re-think. So does our method of delivery (cub scout model of parent den leaders). Its Me is representative of a whole peck of boys and their parents, eh? We're not servin' them well, and we can't keep usin' "hold on 'til Boy Scouts" as the excuse.

Ho Ho! Now dat's one I hadn't heard yet! I think the appropriate thing to tell them is that 1) In Scouting practice and tradition, the receiving troop provides the bridging ceremony and support. It wouldn't be right for the Troop B boys to take that away from the kids in the other troop (or the kids themselves, if they were effectively starting a new troop... but perhaps in that case you could send one older boy to participate in, but not set up or run their ceremony). 2) You'll pass the request to rent Troop B's bus along to the troop committee, and after they check out CO rules and insurance issues they'll get back to them on whether that's possible and what the rental cost will be (and presumably, the cost for the driver). You may or may not want to/be able to lease your bus in this way to help pay for maintenance. 3) You'll pass along the request for AOL and OWAB support to the troop's PLC (and adult leadership) to decide whether they want to do it as a service project. Let the kids know that "no" is an OK answer, and then follow their lead. It's their program and time. Strike the nice balance between helpful/friendly and not being manipulated.