Beavah

Yah, once again on da Scouter.Com forums, someone posts a question. Without askin' for more information and with no understandin' of the circumstances, we "wind the person up" with all kinds of "your troop is awful, you should report them, you should quit" nonsense, and think we're providin' a service. Shame. Gilski, you state quite clearly that this troop practice was created to help the boys, and that it succeeds in building strong character. I think you have your answer. If it helps the boys and succeeds in our aims, it should be supported. Parent complainers should be re-taught the mission of Scouting, or ultimately invited to go join a weaker program. LongHaul also has an excellent point, for all da technical squabblers out there who take great pride in findin' fault with others' programs. If the troop generally does Patrol service projects, then a Star scout as part of the patrol leadership/POR will naturally be helpin' lead the service project, eh? And if he isn't, a good SM would be askin' why not? (This message has been edited by Beavah)

When the Scots-Irish immigration started in the late 1730's - 1740's there were several colonies they avoided. ... they avoided the New England colonies because of a dislike for the Puritans. Hence the large Irish population in Boston, eh?

Yeh should try over on da Scouts-L list, eh? A friend who frequents that says there are quite a few wild an' crazy types that post fairly serious technical trips. Don't know of any units in my area that fly solo. Most work packaged outfitter trips.

Yah, a journalism professor and a women's studies researcher. They're qualified to comment, eh? Some people never recognize the limits of their own competence. Just like global warmin', what's interesting and important is not the current temperature, but the rate of change. The rate of change of boys' performance is a bit alarmin'.

Yah, I'm not a three-strikes guy either. Sometimes when playin' softball with kids, I just let a kid stay at bat until he gets a hit. Just depends on the kid. Send a kid home for anything that seriously compromises the event for the other boys, including taking up way too much of the adults' or youth leaders' time and energy (by choice). Usually that means it's some "ongoing" behavior that culminates in an "incident." But it can also be an incident of theft, vandalism, bullying, gross disrespect for the leaders that other boys witness, etc. So a scuffle that happens between two kids who are normally fine and are just overtired and grumpy on day 4 you handle differently than a fight that gets started by a boy who has been a handful all week. I've never sent a boy home for accumulated "misdemeanors." Always figured it was our job to work on that sort of thing, as long as it didn't compromise da program for other kids. There's always ways to serve a community service and probation sentance around camp. Save the big guns for the felonies.

Nah, modern youth aren't apathetic. They just choose not to engage in the foolishness that their parents for some ungodly reason think is important. Non-response is a more mature, understanding, and kind way to deal with adult foolishness than rebellion, eh? I find young people today to be much more service-oriented and respectful than those of a generation or two ago. They certainly beat past generations hands-down in time spent in community service.

Not surprising, eh? There's plenty of research on da limits of email and forum type communication. It follows a very consistent pattern like what you see here. Each person tends to take critique a bit more personally than was intended, and responds a bit more stridently in text than they would in real life. Repeat until yeh get to Hitler references. Probably it's because in real life their sentiment would be carried by other non-text cues like tone and body language. In this medium, da only way to add emphasis is to make the words a bit more pointed. Annoyin', but normal. What is a bit off here is da way people get one question/complaint from a new poster and immediately launch off on judgments dat the troop must be wicked, the SM should be fired, they should find a new troop and such. Instant harsh to fellow volunteers who aren't present to defend themselves, eh? I'm not sure that's very helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, etc. Maybe it's just the same thing; people tryin' to emphasize somethin' and comin' across too strong. But it strikes me as bein' worse than talkin' harsh to people who are present. Somethin' my grandmother used to say about talkin' behind people's backs I guess.

And a moment of silent prayer for the many, many former Boy Scouts who are serving in our armed forces around the world. May the Great Scoutmaster keep them in the hollow of his hand.

The term "unit leader" is not synonomous with Scoutmaster. If they meant Scoutmaster it would say Scoutmaster. The Council Advancement Chair in Chicago Area Council wants the unit Advancement Chair to sign the application. Well, dat's a new one. It doesn't say Scoutmaster because of course the unit leader for an Eagle could be a Varsity Team Coach or a Venturing Crew Advisor. But I've always understood the term "unit leader" in all the BSA literature to mean the chief operational adult of the unit. That seems to be the reasonable way to interpret "the unit leader" in the context of the Advancement guidelines. Specifically policy statements like "unit leaders, assistant unit leaders, relatives, or guardians may not serve as members of a Scouts' board of review" The unit advancement chair presumably would participate in BOR's as a member of the committee - and so can't be "the unit leader," eh? In fact, that same section says "One member serves as chairman (of the BOR), usually the committee member responsible for advancement." I believe your CAC in CAC might not be interpreting the intent correctly. But then, I bet you're not surprised that the Chicago council isn't getting things right, eh?

Yah, Ed's right, eh? I think what you mean is that you refuse to sign the Eagle Application as unit leader. That is your right, and it "puts the brakes" on the Eagle Scout application process. The council cannot process the application nor can a BOR be convened unless you and the CC sign. The scout can of course appeal, which is the only way for the scout to proceed. The appeal goes to the next higher body (for you refusing to sign as SM, the next higher body would be the unit committee) and on up.

Wish I had seen this earlier, since we live up here by the EAA headquarters. Our understanding is that the flying tour permit details, including pilot certificates and all that, are not required for Scouts to participate in an official EAA Young Eagles event. This was a formal arrangement with the BSA and EAA that was arranged some years back, in part because the EAA is providing insurance coverage for Young Eagles events that takes effect before any BSA coverage. The EAA parent consent form substitutes for the BSA form. We hear that in other areas of the country, council staff are not as well informed.

Yah, this is the guy we want representin' and speakin' for the Boy Scouts, eh? What dim bulb hired him as a speaker? I'm a conservative and Republican voter much of the time. But bein' a conservative and a Republican doesn't make up for a lack of honor. What disturbs me most is that he was and remains unrepentant. He'd make a good speaker if his talk was about abuse of power and how he'd learned his lesson. On a brighter note, I see the verdicts are "guilty" for Ken Lay. Hopefully he won't be invited to speak on behalf of the BSA anytime soon.

Yah, SR540. I actually don't know enough about skating to have a take on that issue. If you've done a lot of park & pipe skating I defer to your judgment.

If you are able to point out improper uniforming in a polite and constructive way, I say there is nothing wrong with it. I agree that you should not say anything to a scout outside of your unit. That's the job of their leaders, not yours. Yah, but it seems like the same applies to adults as applies to kids, eh? It's the job of the CC, COR, or UC to encourage/prod/enforce a uniforming expectation among the adults in their own unit. It's not your job as an outsider. FScouter is right, though. No polite adult is likely to make a comment back to a uniform cop. In that way they demonstrate higher courtesy. What they're thinkin' when they walk away is a different matter.

Believin', it may be that your council does not require Tour Permits for trips within the council service area. There are a lot of councils like that. Yours may be one. That's the danger of internet advice, eh? It's often very authoritative, and wrong. I'd also find one mom to handle paperwork. Simple job, not much commitment, good for someone to do on da side. No point in you spendin' your time. Most unit leaders who are good with kids aren't very good with paperwork, eh?

Since his troop runs their own week long summer camp, This was from the Provisional thread, eh? A troop that runs their own summer camp? Now that's somethin' I haven't seen in a long, long time. I figured it had gone the way of the dodo what with all these corporate advancement camps. Can the original poster (or anyone else) share the details?

Modern BSA summer camps tend to be geared toward whole-troop or individual type camping, eh? Dining by troop, campin' by troop, assemblies by troop, individual activities, individual merit badges. Not much of anything that supports or even allows for da Patrol Method. So what do yeh guys and gals do to try to keep Patrol Method alive during your week at camp?

fotoscout, I'd suggest instead: "The bottom line is that the boys like structure. Ideals like the Oath and Law are the foundation that makes the Scouting environment possible. Shared expectations and values are what make your troop meetings a comfortable place for the boys to be. Trust in your capabilities and judgment are what allow the parents to let their sons spend the weekends with you." Rules are a tool for helping us achieve some of these things, eh? But just a tool. And like any tool, they can be used badly. SR540, not sure how 7a would apply to camp. I do remember an attorney "correcting" a camp director on a matter of the state camp licensing law and regulations once. Yah, I agree with you; even in providing such a correction, yeh still have to be kind and courteous, eh? Da case I had in mind was of a set of U.S. olympic kayakers who were trying to put on a high-water river that they knew well. Unfortunately, they were harassed and abused by the local sheriff. You might remember the footage a few years ago. Very embarrassing for the "authority." Guess they needed the "I Have a Clue" card.

#7a : The person really does know better than the rulemaker, because of unique personal expertise, or insufficient time/attention paid by the rulemaker. #14 : The rulemaker exceeded his authority in making the rule. I like CE's "I've got a clue" card, eh? It ustah be that rules were written to govern everyone. Nowadays, it seems that rules are written to try to contain the stupid. Problem is that stupid is like bacteria. As soon as you try to stop it, it mutates into a resistant strain of more stupid.

service stars indicating 30 years of service with orange (Tiger Cub) backing ??? He's wearing 30 Tiger cub stars? Tiger cub stars (orange backing) do not have year numerals, eh? I think you've mis-identified an insignia. Which perhaps illustrates the hazards of becoming a self-appointed Uniform Cop. I suspect more people talk and laugh about the embarrassing and counterproductive behavior of Uniform Cops than about other people's uniforms, eh?

Don't beat yourself up, MaScout. Good caring people always reflect on their actions and choices. That "second guessing" is a strength, not a weakness. Stick by your guns, though. Make the tikes learn somethin', including how to complete a task or project in an honorable way.

Thanks for the longer explanation, Lisabob. It helps us understand, eh? You are still thinkin' like a Cub Scout parent. You see an issue and you want to come to an adult solution by runnin' an adult event, gettin' ideas from other programs and pushing the SM to do things through the committee. That is most definitely not Boy Scouting. In Boy Scouting, we don't take the responsibility away from the boys. If your son and his buddies feel they're not getting what they needs, their job is to tell their patrol leader... loud and clear, many times. Or to elect a new one. My experience with PLC's has been that they only need a voice or two expressing a problem for the group to focus on it and come up with their own solutions, with perhaps some gentle hinting or suggestions from the SM. Learnin' how to do that is far more important to the boys' future lives than being "signed off" on tying a bowline. So what's your role in all this? To buck your son up and encourage him to talk to his Patrol Leader (and maybe SPL if there's a chance). And to be quietly supportive of the adult volunteers with experience in your unit, eh?

You may not see the risks, but someone else who makes up the rules has. Someone with far greater experience and knowledge than you has weighed the risks and determined that it's not worth it. But that cuts both ways, eh? The mythical "someone in authority" out there who has greater knowledge and experience sees only the general condition. At the point when they make the rule, they cannot see your specific situation, and use their special knowledge to tailor a rule just for you. So someone says "zero tolerance" for anyone on the beach without posting a buddy tag as a general rule. But that same knowledgeable someone, if they were there that morning with Kahuna, would have recognized that it made no sense in that circumstance. In fact, I bet they would have taken that aquatics staff aside and had a conversation about the proper way to treat customers and volunteers. The rulesmakers would choose to violate their own rule, rather than apply it foolishly. Rules are generalizations. The only way to do the right thing in a specific situation is to have knowledgeable and caring people in that situation. If you are the kind of person who has no respect for these rule makers and think yourself more knowledgeable or experienced then they, go ahead and cross ... just don't do it with my scouts in tow. Yah, well. If you believe that your kids are kept safe primarily by rules and not by the goodwill and judgment of people, you're sadly mistaken. The troop leaders of that boy who drowned in Arkansas followed the rules. They just lacked the experience and judgment to understand what the underlying principles really were. Just like Kahuna's waterfront staff. I'd much rather have my kids in the hands of a caring, competent individual who used his/her brain about da rules, rather than relying on them blindly.

Yah, I agree with SR540; there's a lot of T-2-1 stuff that should just be happenin' on outings as a regular part of the game. But there's a bit of a difference between what the troop/patrol is doing, and what a boy may be doing. The troop may be teaching safe hiking, but some boys may be usin' their time to daydream and play with the wood toads. Dat leaves "no time" for advancement, eh? But it's still good scouting, and OK by most of us. I generally find that it's the first aid stuff that takes the longest for most boys to complete well; particularly 2nd class first aid. It's (hopefully!) not practiced "live" too much, but it's as new to boys as backpackin' or winter campin', and takes even longer to learn well.

I think your troop is probably doin' things the way B-P and Hillcourt intended, eh? The boys are going out and playin' the game, and learning as they go. They are not being "driven" by advancement as and adult imposed excercize, unless da parents are tryin' to impose on their own kids. Nothin' can be done about that. Scouting is a pick-up-game, not an organized sport. Relax. Most would be delighted to have their son say that his life in the troop is "busy with program" all the time. And dependin' on where you live, open fire stuff may not be very common any more. With more than half the U.S. in drought conditions, responsible troops are doin' what they need to do to be good citizens, and with LNT, many troops are movin' away from cuttin' and burnin'. You should be proud that your son's troop is ahead of the game in responsible campin'.