Beavah

Yah, Dozy... hard case. Your problem isn't with a BOR. The difficulty in your unit is that you have a group of people ("new guard") who are causin' conflict, in part by viewing things as "us" (new guard) vs. "them" (old guard). Yeh are forgettin' that adult-level scoutin' is about shared service. These things happen in units when the adults don't have a common vision of the mission, particularly where da CO is only weakly involved. I think you need to decide whether your goal is to split the troop (with all the attendant consequences including possible folding altogether, or the possibility of the committee and CO simply removing the "troublemakers"). Are the "new guard" ready to run things themselves? If so, you are proceeding correctly. There is a chance that the "old guard" will get tired and just quit with their sons, and then you can run the troop as you see fit. At least until the next "new guard" decides to take you on. My alternate advice would be to take a deep breath and withdraw the appeals to the district. The proper thing is to never allow "immediate appeal" when tempers are hot. That should not have happened. Wait for the BOR's written summary, then appeal properly with calmer heads to the unit committee. In the interim, find a mediator in a good commissioner and get everyone to sit down and talk about goals and values. It may be that people are gettin' riled up over molehills, and with a bit of assisted discussion all da parties can settle into a truce and common understanding of service. It may also be that yeh don't share goals and values, in which case the only reasonable solution is to start/move to a second unit. Finally, if all else fails, bind and gag all of the adults and put them in a room to watch the kids decide what they really want. My guess is that you'll find the boys are wiser, more mature, and more values-focused than their adult peers.

I do have one question with the G2SS, I can understand the restriction against chain saws, but having never used a log splitter, could someone explain the danger in that tool? This is a poorly written G2SS rule, eh? There are some varieties of mechanical logsplitters that use a fast-moving impact wedge which can be hazardous to those who aren't careful. Risk is from the splitter itself and also from the potential of flying wood. On the other hand, there are some log splitters that use a slow-moving pressure wedge which are quite safe for high school or even middle school kids to operate - a heck of a lot safer than an axe, eh! Power tools are listed as OK for Boy Scout age youth in da BSA's age appropriate guidelines, and quite frankly, when else are boys goin' to get instruction on the safe use of such tools? The "no power tools for Eagle projects" bit seems to resurface here about every 5 years or so before those with knowledge and common sense beat it back into submission.

The procedure is: The SM refuses to sign the Eagle application (refuses to recommend the boy for a BOR), perhaps because he cannot sign Scout Spirit. If the Boy appeals the SM's decision, it goes to the unit committee. The unit committee can overrule the SM and send the boy to a BOR with their recommendation. Note that this appeal is not the BOR itself, which has to be done by the district or with a district rep. If the unit committee decides in the SM's favor, the boy can appeal up the chain to the district/council/national (see below). If the SM did sign the application and recommend the boy, then the unit committee (through its chair) can still refuse to sign and recommend the boy. The boy then has to appeal the lack of recommendation from his unit to the district (and on up). In both cases, when an appeal hits the district, the district (or unit committee with district rep.) can still opt to hold an Eagle Board of Review if it desires, or it can just handle the appeal of the unit decision first without holding an EBOR. The norm in most areas is to hold an EBOR, but consider the non-recommendation by the unit leader(s) strongly as part of that process. The EBOR is allowed to consider, for example, that the SM did not recommend for some reason and investigate that. Because most districts opt to hold an EBOR when there's a dispute, usually appeals to council/national are from that EBOR. Long and short of it is that in the process, either the SM, the unit committee, or the EBOR can put on the brakes. I'm with everyone else here, eh? Multiple fights with other scouts? Theft? No Loyalty to the troop and his peers in terms of helping out? This buck should have stopped with the SM.

Whether an adult scout leader is interpreting the advancement requirements too harshly or too leniently is a matter of opinion, and the prevailing opinion of the majority of leaders should be persuasive, if not dispositive. I'm goin' to disagree "lightly" Hunt. I think it's important to remember in da BSA system that the CO's goals are the ones that are most important. So the question of whether the adult (or youth) leaders signing off on requirements are being too harsh or too lenient depends primarily on how well their use of the method is achieving the CO's aims and purposes. In such a case, the majority view of scouters across other CO's with different aims is clearly not dispositive, or even relevant. For example, there's a CO in our area tied to a home schooling cooperative. They clearly have a much higher interest in using the advancement method to teach academic skills to a defined level of mastery, as part of their home schooling curriculum. I don't know them that well, but my impression is that they're on the "heavy" side of da list above. Another CO might be more interested in just "exposing" kids to new subjects, because their kids are already heavily involved in school and sports and other extracurriculars. They'd be on the "light" side. Both are meetin' their CO's goals and the BSA's. Another case where it's not worth the argument.

Yah, dat's weird, eh? There were a number of replies to this just a little big ago. They all seem to have been zapped.

ANOTHER requirement fundamentalist thread? It just never gets old, does it? Of course the counselor has to interpret the requirements in light of the aims and the local conditions. If we didn't want the counselor to use his/her best judgment most of the time, then we would have to make the requirements book as long as the U.S. Administrative code - dozens of volumes of fine type. Complete 20 days of camping. That includes nights, but not if you happen to be in Alaska where the sun doesn't set in the summer. Camping must be outdoors, not in a basement or garage or cabin. However, it can be in an Adirondack shelter with 3 sides, but not if you hang a tarp on the 4th side, except in winter in states north of 40 degrees north latitude, where animal skins or burlap can be used to contain heat on the 4th side, but only if hand-lashed and tied using T21 knots. Camping must include actually doing work to make yourself comfortable in the outdoors, rather than hiring servants/parents to do everything for you, unless you do the fundraising to pay the servants yourself by working for a trail conservation group for at least 5 consecutive 8 hour days.... Aiieeee.

Seriously, I don't think the actual method (#4 - #9) is crucial. What I think is crucial is consistency. Yah, I agree acco. The person I stole this list from I think was advocating that only #8 or #9 was any good, though. Very different from Hunt, eh? So units can have different expectations. That's fine until a boy transfers to a different troop, or leaders change too quickly. Then there can be some friction. Some friction, too, when Eagles meet from different style programs, perhaps. I don't mind the difference myself, as long as the units are reachin' kids in some way. But there are some here who believe that it's important for there to be consistency like you suggest across all troops; that individual CO's and SM's can't set their expectations "light" or "heavy" according to their own aims or best judgment. I don't think that's an argument worth havin' most of da time. At best, a friendly commish should gently prod the #1-3's to tighten up a bit, and prod the #10's to lighten up a bit. Both in a friendly way that doesn't annoy people who are generous volunteers.

That's not true at all. BSA owns the BSA program. BSA charters local community groups to use the BSA program. Yah, that's right FScouter. And in the BSA's own program and organizational structure, issues of advancement are expressly the purview of the unit, district, council, and national advancement committees. There is nothing in the BSA program or governance structure that permits a DE or even an SE to make an interpretation of advancement requirements. Nor, in the BSA governance structure does the DE have any say in charter decisions. That is exclusively the SE, and only with express permission from national. It's not enough to quote rules, eh? It is necessary to understand structures, intent, and goals.

Examples are probably easiest, eh? This is from an old Scouts-L posting. When a boy gets signed off for the 2nd Class first aid requirement for serious burns in your unit, what has he done? Be honest. 1) He watches as the counselor demonstrates first aid for burns, then gets signed off with the group. 2) He watches as the counselor demonstrates first aid for burns, then later that day or the next he is quizzed on what the steps are for burn first aid and answers correctly. 3) He listens to the counselor tell about how to do first aid for burns, and plays victim while one of his buddies bandages his "burn." He gets signed off that day with his buddy. 4) The counselor says "I have a second degree burn on my lower arm right here. Here's all the stuff you need. I'll talk you through it." Boy is signed off when done. 5) The counselor demonstrates first aid for burns. He then turns to the boy and says "Now you do it." Boy proceeds with occasional hints from counselor, then is signed off. 6) The counselor demonstrates first aid for burns and has kids practice. The next day he says "I have a 2nd degree burn on my arm, here's all the things you need." He doesn't give hints or suggestions. Any kid who gets something resembling a loose bandage on gets signed off. 7) Same as 6, except the counselor expects cooling first, then a "good" bandage. He takes boys one at a time, with the other boys watching. Only some boys get signed off, others (particularly the ones who went first) are given hints and more practice and told to try again tomorrow. 8) Counselor teaches burn assessment as well as treatment. Kids practice multiple times on burns in different locations, with different materials. The next week they review, then counselor takes first boy around the corner where other boys can't watch, and says "Ow, I have a burn on my leg." Boy has to cool the burn, ask questions to decide the degree of burn, find a first aid kit, select the proper materials, and successfully treat and bandage. 9) Counselor teaches assessment. Kids practice multiple times, using scenarios. On the next campout, counselor moulages his lower leg and stages dumping boiling water on his leg when only one boy is around. He screams and lies in pain, giving no help whatsoever. Boy has to assess scene for safety and secure it (ex. turn off the stove), cool the burn, assess the burn for severity, find a first aid kit, select the right materials, bandage well. At the end he is asked about proper follow-up care. Small mistakes or delays are accepted, but any major error means no sign off. 10) Same as #9, but scout also has to treat for shock and decide on and execute an evacuation plan. #1, #2, and #3 are technically not OK, because individual testing wasn't done and the boy didn't "demonstrate" the requirement. #4-#9 are all technically "legal" , though they are very different in how they view expectations and "learning". You could say they range from "light" advancement to "heavy" advancement. #10 might be adding to the requirements; shock is a different 2nd class requirement, and getting to outside help is a 1st Aid MB requirement. But is expecting a 2nd class scout to know how to call for help really that awful? Of course, if the plan involves transporting the victim, that's a 1st class requirement.

Not that frequent around here. Every now and then, usually just one or two families at a time, rather than a bunch. About half the time they find a happy home in the second unit (partly because they're a bit more circumspect about their yammerin'); about half the time they bounce again, and again. I'd say almost all of the conflict, when it happens, comes from advancement issues. Usually parents lookin' for da fastest lane on da road to Eagle, tho once or twice an Eagledad movin' his kid out of a mill and into a handcrafted Eagle unit. The kids never really care, at their age, they just want to fit in and meet the expectations of their peers and their troop. I can understand why the sentiment someone expressed of just handin' a boy an Eagle badge when he comes in, then invitin' him to stay and earn it if he wants. Some schools are givin' up on Valedictorian and Salutatorian for the same reason. Just too much conflict. Given a choice between teachin' your son to respect the other adults in his life and doin' what it takes to get your son what he (or the parent) wants, there are always some who choose the latter.

I ran this subject by our DE last night. Guess what. It is adding a requirement. Yah, guess what? The DE has no authority in the BSA structure to make that decision. That's a decision that is the sole purview of the advancement committees (i.e. volunteers) as it is a policy/mission decision. At the point when the boy has fulfilled all of the other requirements and the SM refuses to sign for service, the boy can appeal to the Troop Committee for a BOR anyway. If they say no, he can appeal to the district, then the council, then the national advancement committees. The BSA can choose to issue the award over the unit's objections. But now, what does that accomplish? Does it build a healthy scouting community? Does it make the unit volunteers who are runnin' the program want to keep givin' their time? How do the other boys feel who earned the award according to the expectations of their SM, when some kid who can't be bothered to lead a puny 6 hour project gets the award by complainin'? How do the other parents feel? Yah, the boy's parents might get the patch. But in the process there's a good chance their son and his friends would lose much of the value of the program.

So every time I click on da "Click here for active topics in the last 24 hours" link, I get: Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e31' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]Timeout expired /forums/search.asp, line 43 Well, almost every time. Sometimes late at night I'll get through. Anyone else experiencin' this?

Yah, this is Philmont, eh? All da boys goin' should be older scouts. I'd let them do what they think is right and live with the consequences. Plus the Philmont rangers will do gear checks. But, FWIW: 1. There are a few boys taking rains coats but no pants. I prefer rain or at least windbreaker pants. For the lower country, goin' without isn't too bad, but a bit uncomfortable. For somethin' like goin' up Baldy, wind pants can be necessary. More important for smaller/leaner boys. 2. There is one boy that said he will not take a long sleeve shirt Yah, so? He does have a long-sleeved jacket, right? And one or two long-sleeved insulating layers? I wouldn't sweat it. 3. Do we need to take water purifiers or not? I keep hearing it both ways. Filters are bulky, heavy, and the guys usually clog them. Take iodine tabs, or perhaps one of the fancy new gizmos (UV or Ozone). 4. Do we need to take gloves? Lightweight or wool gloves will help if it gets cold. Again, especially in the high country. 5. Do we need to take soap or is camp zuds provided by Philmont? Soap? soap? Who needs soap? Leave da soap home and learn better LNT cleanup technique. Da Philmont Rangers will teach yeh. It'll keep da bear smellies down, too.

Uh, and who will pay the cost of food, supplies, etc, from the course??? I dunno. How about all da FOS dollars that are ostensibly collected for that purpose? You know, providing trainin' and enhancing the kids' scoutin' experience and all that? Providin' trainin' and program is after all why FOS dollars are collected, right? But BrentAllen has a good point. I agree with him that there needs to be some financial commitment in order to build a mental/emotional commitment.

Home, home on the range... Where the Buffalo and Antelope play But their playing's a curse 'Cause we're missing their verse So da Beavah's can't chime in today... Dam.

Ooh, ooh, let me try. I love word games. Yah. Word games are fun, eh? We need context, though, even for word games. It's really more like 'Take part in Leadership Service Project(s) approved by the SM before the project(s) are started.' Even tho' word games are fun, they don't really answer the question "What's best for the boy?" or even better, "What's best for all da boys in this particular unit's program?" My wish is that service-oriented and mentally awake scouters debate those things, not what the meaning of "is" is.

Yah, yelruh. That's the hard part about "askin' questions and callin' them" on things. At some point, the volunteers just don't want to spend any more of their time on that. They volunteered to try to help kids and have some fun in the woods, after all, not debate requirement 7c(1). At the point they're sick of the debate, they can either leave (hurt all kids) or ask the COR or Committee to remove the offender (hurt one kid) who is takin' up too much time. Which is why I counsel that unless you're willin' to step up and be SM, yeh have to think carefully about critiquing the guy in the job. Even in small ways, if every time da SM works with a particular boy, the boy's parents give him grief, then the SM is, over time, going to avoid goin' out of his way to work with that boy. Sounds like you've burned bridges with your son's current troop. Is there some reason why he can't go back and join the original troop from before the split? I think that's where I'd go first. After that, you may need to look further afield, like the next town over. Might be a longer drive, but yeh might find a troop that's a better fit for your family. As to blue cards, your son should still have his copy (right?) which he can take to a new troop. Alternately, if he's done the work and knows the stuff, a quick meeting with a new counselor should allow him to demonstrate that and get a signoff.

Nah, Ed, Longhaul got this one right. "Star and Life service projects may be approved for Scouts assisting on Eagle Service projects." (33215 p. 20, emphasis mine). So just because the Eagle project was approved for the Eagle candidate doesn't mean that the SM has to approve work on the Eagle project to meet the Star or Life requirement. For example, a Star Scout might assist da Eagle candidate with his project by helping him organize tools before the project. But is that really providing service to the community, or just being helpful to a friend and troopmate?

Anytime there's a death/injury in this country, the jury assumes there was negligence involved - that's why there are so many of these cases (they're very easy to win). Actually, the stats are that plaintiffs win tort cases only about half da time. In many cases, a bench trial is a better deal for the plaintiff than a jury trial. See: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/civil.htm

Yah, it's tough CNY. Those sports teams have advantages we don't have. Frequency of practice, and simpleness of task. Da best way to build pride is hard work and high expectations leading to achievement. Especially for boys, the hard work of doin' something together builds friendships and teams. Dat means yeh have to do enough, frequently enough that the kids really struggle, and learn things, and get good at them. Hard to do with a short meeting per week. Harder still because doing well as a youth leader or teammate in scouting involves a lot more skills than playin' a sport, so it takes more effort to master. Da kids who are proud of their scoutin' are the ones who are showin' up a lot, givin' a lot, growin' a lot, and meetin' the highest expectations you can set.

NJCub, high voltage electrical shock can disrupt heart rhythms in a healthy heart, triggering the same kinds of arythmia (like fibrillation) as a heart attack. This is, I believe, the most common way to die from a lightning strike or elecrocution (though a "direct hit" by lightning is instantly fatal). Good extended CPR and timely advanced life support can often save a person from this kind of heart arythmia, because da heart itself is healthy. It is a shame that didn't happen in this case.

We teach our boys to be leaders. Yah, not necessarily LyndaJ. There's no explicit requirement in da BSA program for leadership skills in any form until a boy hits the Eagle project. And you and others are clear that you don't want to "add to the requirements." There's no requirement for JLT (and most council-level JLT/NYLT will only take a couple of boys from each troop a year). There's no requirement to hold a leadership role, just a Position of Responsibility. Many if not most of da PORs involve service and support, but not leadership (quartermaster, scribe, librarian, historian, bugler, OA representative, chaplain aid, instructor, etc.) At least not leadership of the type necessary to succeed at an Eagle project. So if yeh follow the literal program and don't add a thing, this problem arises. If you're not havin' a problem, my guess is that your troop is adding to the requirements somewhere, eh? We also should be teaching them to be fair and go by the rules. Yah, including the rules of their troop. As parents, we want to teach them to respect their teachers and scout leaders and the other adults in their lives, not argue with them like spoiled junior attorneys. To do that, we teach them by example to respect and follow the judgment of their SM.

Yah, I think leavin' the parents out of it is a good way to approach the boy. But I think we've got to recognize that the parents may be the ones sabotaging the boy's scouting experience. It's hard for a 15 year old to succeed if mom and dad aren't supportive, eh? And not many quiet boys are going to explain/admit that their parents don't like their scouting participation. Perhaps, since he likes sailing, it's time for him to leave the troop and go to a Sea Scout Ship. He can finish his POR, Scout Spirit, and Eagle work with them. I'd raise that suggestion with the boy and the parents.

FScouter is on the money! The G2SS has procedures for this. Yah, useful stuff, like "don't use hair dryers, electric toothbrushes, or electric razors" "stay away from open doors and windows" and "stop tractor work." I'm feelin' safer already.

Full financials. Not just fundraisers, but an easy-to-read formal statement of revenues AND expenses. Include information on capital gear (tents, stoves) and wear-and-tear (depreciation) that will eventually to lead to replacement. Quotes from parents and boys about their view of scouting and the troop.