Beavah

Anybody else noticin' that the "Thinking Again" thread in the WB topic won't display properly? After the first or second reply I get a black table frame and everything stops, with the following message: Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver] Line 1: Incorrect syntax near 'bob'. /forums/forum_library.asp, line 601 Someone may want to check on it, eh?

Any suggestions on how to change that mentality? I am out numbered on this. Yah, Kansascity, yeh don't tell us what your position in the troop is, eh? In all likelihood, it's not your role or job to be tryin' to "change that mentality" unless you are the COR, or perhaps the Unit Commissioner. Stick to your own job, or you'll like as not do more harm than good. Especially if you're the odd man out tryin' to tell everyone else how they should run their program, eh? If yeh feel really strongly about it, drop a note to or meet respectfully with the SM. It's his job to work with the committee. Keep in mind it may be that the SM did work with the committee and quietly suggest "hey, not yet on this young man; he needs some prompting to take initiative as part of bein' responsible, but he needs to hear it from you not just me." Bein' PL is something out of the boy's control, but what it sounds like here is they want the boy to show initiative and responsibility in a way "typical of a PL" in his position. That's reasonable for a Life Scout, eh? Good growth opportunity, with some coachin' from the SM. Worth supportin'.

Yah, what da wise old Owl said. Good on yeh for gettin' training. Keep it up. But remember that trainin' ain't the same as experience. Training only moves you from a raw beginner to a beginner. If yeh think that a couple of parlor sessions and a weekend make you competent, you don't belong in a leadership role. When you enter a troop, you are a beginner. Be humble. Watch and learn. A good troop won't even consider you for an ASM position until they spend at least a year gettin' to know you, and you gettin' to know them. You need to step back, be an observer, and give your boy some room to make it his troop before you become more involved. You need at least a year as a quiet supporter to get yourself out of thinkin' like a Cubmaster. Really. You've spent years as a CM, eh? It's hard to break those habits overnight. So your job is to attend committee meetings, but not speak for the first year. Keep a diary to write down all the things you think they're doin' wrong, rather than sayin' anything. You'll be amazed how silly some things are in your diary when you read it a year later. Go on no more than 1/3 of the campouts, as just a visitor. Spend your time with the experienced adults as a student, not with the boys as a leader. Watch and learn.

Trust your SPL, eh? He seems to be quite a bright turnip in the patch. On his own, he decided that giving a consequence was far more effective than giving a talk or a bribe. He's doin' a better job than your adults, eh? To manage negative behavior, yeh give consequences. Simple, fair, direct. When the consequence is done, a boy is welcomed back with open arms, and hopefully given something to succeed at. It's good that the disruptive boy left upset, eh? That shows that the consequence meant something to him and might help him change his behavior. Now you need to do da second half and welcome him back next week and try to get him to succeed at somethin' he can be praised for. The fact that the session went well for he other boys after your SPL dealt with the matter shows how much the boys want (& respond well to) simple, honest discipline. Given a few weeks of "good sessions" being normal, they'll even start applyin' peer pressure on disruptive kids themselves, followin' your SPL's example. I'd pull your SPL aside and say "nice job." That's a kind of maturity rarely found in a 12-year-old. Then help him with the second part of how to welcome the boy back to a success. The part for you adults to think about is whether your parlor meetings and school-like instruction model really meet the needs of all your boys. Could the same teaching be done in a more active way, outdoors perhaps?

I'd suggest another possibility, eh? It can be hard to break into a pre-existing group. And a few "bad times" can turn a boy off, eh? Consider also just doin' a bunch of family campin', and skippin' Cub Scouts altogether. Have your son join Boy Scouts when he's ready, in an active troop. Da program will be more exciting, many of the boys will be new to each other, and they'll all be "new" to the situation. With some family campin' under his belt, he'll be better prepared than many of his Cub Scout peers. Boy Scoutin' is a lot different than cub scoutin'. Most boys like it much better.

Yah, lawnboy. About 35% or more of our units up here are Catholic-sponsored, eh? So I'm pretty familiar. One thing yeh have to understand is that a parish pastor has a lot more autonomy then you'd think given the hierarchical structure of their church. It really is his call. You should look at the National Catholic Committee on Scouting web pages (http://www.nccs-bsa.org). There's some good stuff in the Literature section you can share with the pastor, eh? You might also post your question over on the Catholic Scoutin' list which runs out of Notre Dame (http://catalist.lsoft.com/scripts/wl.exe?SL1=CATHOLIC-SCOUTING&H=LISTSERV.ND.EDU). Pretty much right now the Catholic parishes are in the "disaster reaction" phase, so there are a lot more hurdles than normal, eh? Kinda like not allowin' lip gloss on airplanes. Just recognize that for what it is. All the Catholic units around here now require everyone to do da Catholic Church YPT training ("Virtus"). It's better than BSA YPT in many ways, worse in others. Three hours plus on-line web follow-ups. They're also requirin' fingerprint background checks, not acceptin' the BSA checks. Of course none of that stuff really matters, eh? Background checks and trainin' rarely stop a predator. Eamonn's right, the "real deal" in youth protection is only puttin' people in kid-contact positions who you know and trust, eh? So I think on the leadership side, you have to respect what they're tryin' to do. Resign yourself to buildin' a more active relationship. It might help a lot if you get a COR who the pastor knows and trusts and feels comfortable "delegating" to. As far as the "no non-Catholic members" bit, that would be within the pastor's purview but would be fairly unusual. Catholic schools are a much bigger and more expensive ministry, and they tend to admit non-Catholics; in some urban areas, 80% or more of the students are non-Catholic. So usually they view scouting units as "ecumenical outreach" and welcome everybody who is comfortable participatin' in a Catholic unit. I dunno, that might even be a written guideline somewhere. There's also a Catholic men's service organization, sorta like da Elks, that seems to be increasingly involved in scoutin' work. They might be a good liaison with your pastor, or even a good chartered partner or source of volunteers or donations, eh? They're called the Knights of St. Christopher or somethin' like that. I bet your parish has a chapter. So yah, I think yeh probably have to start a respectful conversation, eh? You might find that it makes the Pack stronger in the long run.

It is far more likely that the unit or district is playing fast and loose with the paperwork than the Council. Yah, I've certainly seen DE's actively move units into the "Quality Unit" column who had initially submitted no paperwork or paperwork that said "no." Usually the brighter ones do this by nudgin' the unit leader and unit commish. "You're goin' to get trained for next year, right... well that's OK then." It's a small step from that to just fixin' the paperwork yourself, eh? I'm not fond of either practice myself, but it isn't uncommon. Yeh teach a good lesson by publicly returnin' the award, though it's too late to prevent it from figurin' in the district and council stats that are used for evaluation. And we all know that quality of service and honesty aren't part of the regular professional evaluation unless you've got a very active board, eh?

Giving push ups as punishment is corporal punishment, doesnt matter how many This would not be accurate in most states, eh? The most commonly accepted definition of corporal punishment is inflicting pain by physical contact. Only a few states take stabs at extendin' corporal punishment to the realm of doin' pushups or runnin' laps, and even then it tends to apply only to abusive excess in such things, like runnin' to exhaustion. Otherwise, most "service projects" at camp would be corporal punishment, eh? Still, yeh should be cautious about this approach, and mindful of your state and community ethics in the matter. The legal environment gets weirder every year. Long and short of it is "would mom and dad be upset about junior doin' 20 pushups?" As far as diggin' up stumps goes, not hazin' or corporal punishment, but poor Leave No Trace practice. Personally, havin' blundered into an occasional pricker bush or cactus while goin' for the late-night constitutional, I figure that's corporal punishment for me bein' dumber than a toad. Don't take it out on da pricker bush for bein' a pricker bush.

Yah, I agree on the adult side, eh? I really get annoyed by the last-minute trainin' requests, too. The trainin' chair should have staffed it before it got announced eh? Barrin' a disaster like "George had a heart attack and we need somebody" the last minute stuff shouldn't happen. But as far as da kids in the Ship goes, it may just be their "natural" schedulin'. Kids are the victims of all kinds of adult last-minute "requests" too, except they don't often have the ability to say "no." Coach adds a practice, band director adds a gig, teacher drops a 10-page paper on them due on Monday, mom expects they'll spend Saturday weedin' the garden or helpin' winterize da house, and tells 'em Thursday night. All the smart kids around here seem like they have to be hugely flexible/adaptable to short-term stuff. So that's just the way they schedule, eh? They know this Saturday is clear 3 days out, but can't bet on the followin' Saturday since some adult may dump on them. Yah, so it's our lot in life to support youth-run. No complainin'. If dat's the way the youth have to schedule, best to say somethin' like "hey, we'll set it up so that two adults are available two weekends a month for last-minute things." Mark those down, or not. If they schedule a last-minute deal, then about half the time you'll be able to say "yes." If they don't, you get to have some fun with your significant other or do those chores you always meant to do or go help the district trainin' chair who can't get his act together, eh? The other thing I'd consider is whether you just encourage 'em to do it on their own. It's a Ship, eh? All high-schoolers? For a lot of things they might be just fine goin' solo.

Thanks nld. BTW, I neglected to mention that the Department of Education Office of Civil Rights has an on-line complaint form available at http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintintro.html. The goal is to make discrimination reporting of all kinds, including against the Boy Scouts, facile. The more detail and specifics you provide, the better (ex. what other groups meet at school, distribute fliers, dates, times, emails/letters, conversations, etc.). Yah, Calico and packsaddle, much as we might decry the modern tendency toward litigiousness, public schools are a creature of public law. So let's review da statements, eh? 1) Grabbing a handful of cash for lawyers: FALSE. A complaint to the Office of Civil Rights will result in an investigation and an "attempt to secure compliance." It will not trigger litigation or any particular loss of funds to the school district unless the district chooses to be belligerent. In which case, they deserve what they get. 2) Applies only to secondary schools: FALSE. The equal access act applies to any K-12 school or agency that receives money under any federal program administered by the U.S. Department of Education. There are a few, isolated school districts in the nation that refuse all federal $ (typically because they are small districts with something like a nuclear power plant in their back yard for tax revenue). I bet not one person readin' these forums lives in such a district. 3) PTO's are school organizations: usually FALSE. Almost everywhere PTA/PTO organizations are separately incorporated and not under the direction/control of the school board. They therefore have the same legal status as the Boy Scouts. If your school allows access to a PTA/PTO organization (for fliers, announcements, meeting space, etc.) it must allow access to the Boy Scouts. It is very difficult for a school to maintain a "closed forum" with clean hands at the elementary level. I'd venture to say "impossible" at the secondary level. Where it is attempted, it usually is abandoned within a year, or the next time a millage or bond issue comes before the voters, eh? 4) Out-of-season sports (fall baseball) are school-sponsored activities: FALSE. Out-of-season sports practice is not allowed as a school activity under most state athletic assn. rules. 5) Other things (Spanish lessons, science camp) are school-sponsored activities: MAYBE. Is it under the direction of the school board (i.e. school board hires and fires the staff / supervises the volunteers)? Most public schools are not allowed to charge for academic work that's part of their core curriculm (ex. Spanish lessons). Simply put, it is very difficult for a school district to legally deny access, backpack mail flyers, or other recruiting to a scouting unit. If you find it happenin', do your duty to your country and report it the way you would report any other crime. We all took an Oath, eh?

I recently watched a video of canyoning at a recreational office.(Imagine your local water park, except these are actually mountains and canyons) A relatively new sport with outdoor enthusiast, I don't see it prohibited by the G2SS (yet). I don't even plan on consulting my fellow advisors, lest showing it to the crew, because I expect the adults would cringe thinking of potential risk of injuries (even with the participants wearing safety gear). Nah. Canyoneering is a grand adventure, and can be plenty safe. Probably safer than the kids ridin' their bikes to school, eh? Share opportunities with da young people, don't hide them. I think there was even a piece on canyoneering in a Scouting Magazine or Boy's Life in the last year. If the kids see an exciting opportunity that's outside of your comfort zone as an advisor, that's what outfitters and consultants are for, eh? Don't hold 'em back. (Paintball is also safer than ridin' a bike to school or goin' whitewater rafting or a whole bunch of other stuff we do in scoutin'. It's just not politically correct. )

We need to teach our scouts that no one can "make" you sign anything. Including the troop committee. Sure, dat's true, eh? We don't disagree. Most of the time, our ethical obligation is to honor the process. The Speaker of the House has to pass the bill along to the Senate, even if he didn't vote for it and doesn't agree. Civil society is maintained and strengthened when individuals who disagree nonetheless support the decision of the group. We always expect the committee members who voted "no" to support the decision of the group, don't we? Just like we expect the boys who didn't vote for da SPL to support the SPL who was elected. Naturally, there can be issues where the decision of the group is so destructive that there is an ethical responsibility to oppose it. Hard to imagine such a case in Scoutin', of course, at least at the committee level. Mostly it's tempests in teapots. But in such a case, the responsibility of the CC is to refuse to sign, and to tender his resignation because he can no longer fulfill his duties as chair. Amounts to the same thing as you suggest, since the Chair's resignation goes to the COR, yah? So then the CO has to make a decision whether to keep the chair or keep the committee. Da hard part is when the CO isn't "real" or active. That's when Scoutin' is least fun, and the adult squabblin' gets in the way of what we're doin' for kids. Makes a good Commissioner cry, that. So almost all the time, the CC should sign (only) as the committee directs, eh?

First, committee meetings have to be open. BSA prohibits any "secret meetings". Nah, EagleKY, you're readin' the wrong book. In Guide to Safe Scouting, under the section on preventin' abuse, there is a prohibition against "secret organizations". That's a restriction only on youth activities, meanin' if their kid is there, you can't keep the parent out. It doesn't apply to Committee Meetings. There, the Troop Committee Handbook limits committee meetings to committee members, and to occasional invited guests. Committees may often have agenda items that are confidential - how to support a special needs boy, campership support for a family of limited means, someone behind on their bills, a youth behavioral incident that needs to be discussed, etc. etc. There is absolutely no BSA requirement that Committee Meetings be open, and some very good reasons why they should not (always) be. Yah, now that havin' been said, there are quite a few troops who have fairly open meetings, or who even sign up every parent as an MC. That can work just fine, in some communities, with a strong CC and a common vision.

Second, technically committee members don't have a "vote" any more than non-member parents do--decisions are made by the committee chair. That's what it says in BSA material, anyway, although I believe that many if not most committees do function as though members have a vote. This would not be accurate, eh? It is true that an IH or COR can act on personal authority in this way. But a committee chair is just the chair of the committee. First among equals. Where paperwork calls for a CC's signature, he/she is representing the committee not acting solo. So the CC's signature on a leader application represents that the committee has approved the leader application. The CC may even have voted "no." But he signs to reflect the committee's decision, eh? Same deal on an Eagle application. Da CC does not have independent dictatorial powers any more than the Chairman of the Board does in a corporation, eh? At least that's not the normal structure, unless a CO determines differently. **** As far as KP's question goes, the answer is probably the same, though. There's a reason why UC's aren't supposed to serve in their home units, eh? And yeh don't make any friends by throwin' your weight around. There are a fair number of district or council volunteers I wouldn't want to see at the unit level. CO's and units are right to be skeptical. It's their program, not the council's. The way to participate in your son's scoutin' is to come on occasional trips, continue to "talk up" scoutin' with your boy, and offer whatever help is asked for. Simple. Be a dad. Give up on the notion of being in control/in charge. Kids of Boy Scout age need to have experience with lots of different adults, and need parents to be quiet supporters. You, your son, and your son's unit will all benefit from this simple, enjoyable level of participation.

Mine eyes have seen da story of the tramplin' of our rights Cause all the Bears are singin' but they won't put up a fight Some times you have to light a fuse before they see the light So use all the tools you have... Glory, glory public schooling, Ain't for private little rulings, We pay their bills and salaries and for the paper that they use, So don't be afraid to call their bluff.

Does anybody who doesn't have an axe to grind really care? Seriously, a Buddhist kid gets invited to a Pack open house or a Troop campout. He and his parents make a decision based on whether they are welcomed, treated kindly, and whether it's fun/educational. Nobody reads the DRP lookin' to make a legal case or a thesis on moral theology. Heck, usually nobody reads da DRP at all - Unless they've got an axe to grind, and are less interested in scoutin' than they are in agenda-pushin'. Those types shouldn't be in Scoutin' no matter what their agenda is, eh?

Dat's a clarification that's as clear as mud, eh? "Is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis?" Thanks for all the help, there, Irving. I always wonder why people need legal definitions of "active" or the dozen other things in advancement that come up. Don't yeh know what a Trustworthy and Loyal man does? Don't yeh teach that to, and expect that of your scouts? It ain't a percentage, but it is a level of commitment lots bigger than "pay your registration fee." Advancement is a goal to be worked toward, not a patch you get for a fee. At least to all of us who care about kids more than dollars.

For mixed-age patrols, is a periodic re-shuffle typically part of the model? If so, this is unexpected for me. I think of these as "permanent" patrols, as in *permanent*. Nah, it's a one-time deal. I think OGE is talkin' about da shuffle that often happens with same-age patrols, but I could be mistaken. Alumni can come back after 20 years and their good ol' patrol is still there. Gives real meanin' to the Gilwell song, eh? To keep the system goin', each year when you admit new scouts yeh follow a similar process, but for just the new scouts, so they join a "permanent" patrol as new members. Keep good friends together, load things slightly to fill in the ranks of a smaller patrol, try to "match" personalities. Da kids get it; they'll do this fine if yeh let 'em. It can help if you have some webelos contact before crossover, or you make the new guys "guests" of a patrol for a month just to see personalities, but it's not that big a deal. Trevorum, I'd be curious about your "disaster", eh? Every unit I've seen that's switched from mixed to age cohorts has made a mess of things, so I'm wonderin' what your trippin' point was comin' back.

Yah, yah, what jr56 and Eagledad said! No fair playin' sink or swim on a big task like planning a high adventure trip, especially with 13-year-olds. Most adults would sink. Either build up to it as Eagledad said, or, if you really need the high adventure opportunity to "seed" some other excitement, then plan it "together" with them tagging along and offerin' suggestions. Yeh got another 5 years to help da kids develop their plannin' skills, eh? Let them see and feel a great trip the first time. Most units that have youth doin' planning, those youth have spent several rounds bein' participants before they pick up the leadership and planning role. Also, don't be too quick on pushin' "high adventure." 13 is a borderline age for such stuff; not all 13 year olds will be ready for that level of physical activity, mental challenge, or commitment. If they're not askin' for it, consider whether you're pushing too early. It might be better for you to plan a 1-week "Adventure JLT" where you spend a day bikin' and climbin' and backpackin' etc., just to give them ideas for what's possible (for the troop to do, and for the older boys to do more of). Boys aren't good at "abstract." They need to see and touch stuff. Give 'em a ride or two, then some instruction and some time with you sittin' right seat before you make 'em solo.

Yah, I've seen good SM's try to run the show without a real committee. It works for a bit, but the burnout is brutal, eh? Get thee a real committee. It is more important than next month's program for the kids. So, if you need to, cancel everything so that you and your senior kids and adults can spend a month puttin' together a real committee. Select a CC and treasurer who you know, and who will be there for at least 2-3 years. Set up a real accounting oversight system. No same-family relatives as CC and Treasurer for cryin' out loud! Pull in other parents and other outsiders who you know will contribute productively. Make sure the CC has prior experience running meetings/serving on a board of directors. Trainin' is nice and all, but a day of trainin' doesn't hold a candle to a few years of real experience. Get a real COR appointed and put him/her on the committee. Tell your DE and DC that you need a real-life unit commissioner who will show up at every committee meeting for a year or you're going to deliver all your unit's popcorn to their front lawn. In short, don't be drivin' a wagon full of kids up Adventure Pass when you know the wheels aren't attached.

Yah, KP. This is just goin to vary a huge amount by Chartered Org. It's really up to them how they want to structure their committee, eh? For some CO's, a unit is an integral part of their mission/youth ministry program. Committee members are all going to be members of the CO with youth service backgrounds, eh? They might not be particularly interested in gallery observers. Some committees deal with things like allocation of campership funds, support for kids with special needs and such, where "random parent" observers would not be appropriate. In other troops for other CO's, every parent is considered a member of the committee, and all committee meetings are "open." This works fine with a strong CC and parents who are all "on board" in terms of mission, and can help encourage volunteerism. But it also runs the risk of becoming an adult complaint fest and feudin' ground with a weaker CC or parents who have axes to grind. It sometimes confuses people, because the program, and parent volunteers, should be under the direction of the SM; but the committee at some level oversees the program and the SM. The two roles aren't really compatible. In my experience, too, cub packs tend to have more open committees, while troops are mixed. The more high adventure a troop does, and the stronger the CO relationship, the more committees tend to be smaller and "closed," because the support needed becomes more specific and technical than the average parent can provide. Closed committees tend to be better at maintainin' high standards and sense of mission, but not as good at communication. But to answer your question, "Yes, parents can be excluded from Committee Meetings, and for some organizations, that's appropriate." As a parent you have no more say over how a troop is run than you do over the soccer league or the school band. That doesn't mean that a unit doesn't want parents to participate in the scout program with their son. Far from it! You should participate, and offer help, and volunteer, and make polite suggestions for improvement, just the way you would for the school band program. It just says that not every parent is on the troop's Board of Directors, in the same way that not every member of a congregation is on the parish council/board of elders. All that bein' said, I think most unit committees would welcome a polite parent observer provided the topics they were discussin' weren't confidential. I expect most would be quite friendly if you were coming out of interest and not axe grinding. But it's polite to ask first, and to accept "no" as an OK answer; and it would be impolite to participate as anything other than a quiet observer unless invited to do so.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Regardless of the legal issues, I don't think it would be in your best interest or in the interest of the BSA to invoke the ACLU or other confrontational actions. I have a thing about schools and superintendents followin' the law, eh? Which in this case they're not doin'. Accumulate your evidence, log communications. Go to public comment at your next school board meeting and say in no uncertain terms that if the practice doesn't change formal enforcement action is imminent and you will file a federal complaint that may cost the school district all of their federal dollars. Your school board will contact the attorney for their state association, who will confirm their risk. The enforcement arm for the federal law is the Office of Civil Rights under the Department of Education. You do not need to spend money on a private cause of action, or contact the ACLU, CIR, or other legal aid group (though often a competent attorney firin' a shot across the bow will get you slightly faster action). You simply file a complaint with OCR. They do the investigation and enforcement for you. In the current administration, they're relatively speedy and firm about these complaints, eh? You can contact the OCR enforcement office in your area by looking them up at http://wdcrobcolp01.ed.gov/CFAPPS/OCR/contactus.cfm. In many cases, state law parallels federal law in order to protect state educational funding, so you may also have a means of enforcement through your state mechanisms. I would also talk to your SE. My understanding is that national has taken a relatively aggressive stance on this matter, and issued some direction to SE's on how to proceed with enforcement. Yah, I also agree with others that you should develop other recruitin' means, but public schools should follow the laws set by the public, eh? If yeh want to be a "Boy Scout Free Zone" pay for a private school.

Yah, emb021 has it when he says it's not about what activities you can do, it's more fundamental. The few successful crews I've seen have a very different "feel" than a troop. More of a high school feel than a troop. Everyone wearin' a fun T-shirt they made after their last trip, but not a uniform. Gettin' together just for fun, informally, rather than a regular weekly meeting. Periods of relative inactivity, and periods of intense focus and effort. It's a much more "teen-like kid feel" and can be a much better fit for a teen who's gotten tired of/too sophisticated for all the adult hoop-jumpin stuff in Boy Scoutin'. Da problem is da focus thing. Venturin' is hard to market as a program because it's all over the place. Unlike Boy Scoutin' or Sea Scoutin', it doesn't have a well-defined, recognized brand image. It's a catch-all youth club kind of structure - sports, outdoors, ministry, whatever. But "catch all youth club" is just a clique of friends, it doesn't attract new members, because new members come to things where there are specifics. New members look for "what are you/what do you do?" So while Venturing itself is a catch-all umbrella program, a Venturing Crew to be successful really does need to have a much tighter focus, which defines who they are and how they sell themselves. Crews that "stay loose" or morph a lot don't last. For Scoutin' it's a bit weird. Every other program we run comes with its own focus. And for an old Commish who's been around the block, it's weirder, eh? I can get Sea Scouts or a SCUBA or Climbing or "high adventure" crew, eh? The BSA is great resource for outdoor programming, and has a lot of materials and contacts. I can even get a Community Service crew. But I don't get youth ministry; outside of LDS, what resources can I as a BSA representative help to provide a youth ministry program? You get insurance, but churches have that already. But I've got no youth ministry program aids to give for various denominations, no youth ministry training to offer. Yah, and if you're other than mainline Protestant, I have even less of a clue, eh? Same with sports, or Arts & Hobbies, eh? I don't know how to support such a unit. Da BSA has no training or resources to provide. No sports fields, no coaching clinics, no pool of referees. I'd be completely lost tryin' to support an Arts & Hobbies group. I love model trains, and there is a local club 'round these parts, but why would they want to be a, or charter a Crew? They wouldn't get anything, and "Venturing" doesn't say "model trains!" in anyone's mind. If yer lookin' for a local model train club, you don't Google Venturing. So Yah, OGE, no offense taken. I really am kinda clueless about how to help make all the aspects of the Venturing cornucopia work. There's no one program here, and so far most of the local crews have tended to form around individual personalities, and usually don't last longer than that personality is around. Lots of great potential, I think, but it needs some tighter focus, some more materials, and some exemplars to copy. But I came up through Boy Scouts, eh? It could be that I'm just an old fuddy-duddy lookin' for A Program.

Ah, another scouter returnin' to the program. Good on yeh. You don't mention your troop size, but here are some ideas for the switch. Get your senior scouts together and get them on board and helping. They are going to be your PLC, so you want them involved so that it's as much "theirs" as yours. In keepin' with FScouter's advice, go ahead and collect a piece of paper from every boy with (a) a list of 2-3 people they want to be with in a new patrol, and (b) anybody they don't want to be with. Work with your senior scouts and let them design the new patrols with just some guidance from you. The boys usually know who works well together better than us old codgers, eh? The guidance I'd give is: 1) good mix of skills so there's some older scout leadership and some guys comin' up in every patrol; 2) guys who work well together personality-wise / are friends; 3) roughly same number of kids per patrol on every outing (so yeh might have some patrols that are a bit bigger, but with less frequent participants). For your first cycle, don't be afraid to have your senior scouts self-select leadership positions with your guidance. It'll take six months of workin' together before the boys are able to get to know their new patrol-mates to be able to vote intelligently. When you bring in new scouts, do the same process, but it helps to have the parents fill out a "who to be with/not be with" form too. Lots of troops don't really do patrol competitions anymore, partly because of the age-based thing. Mixed age patrols benefit from competitions and points... they make it valuable for the older boys to coach the younger ones, and provide ways for the younger ones to earn their stripes / feel like contributors. Best if you introduce this again, and even keep track over months.

Isolated things like not letting boys make s'mores are not worth gettin' your dander up over. As CC you should be supportin' the den leader on such nonsense. I agree with Semper, though, yah? A den shrinkin' from 13 to 4 because of unhappy boys and families is the real issue. Some scouters belong at the boy scout or venturing levels; they don't have the personality or patience for dealin' with the younguns, no matter what their trainin' or years of experience. Maybe that's true here. The thing that's missin' here is "What does your Cubmaster think?" Another thing that's missin' is whether the remaining four boys are the den leader's son and his best friends? (In other words making a "forced change" is as likely to lose you the last four kids as anything). It sounds like you have a second den for same-aged boys, because some are transferrin' out of this den without leavin' the pack? In that case, you might just want to gently make that available to the remaining families, in which case maybe he'll end up not being den leader by virtue of nobody left in his den. Problem solved, provided you give him some other job to keep him out of the way of the other den leader. Yah, cubs is tough this way. Parent den leaders are all hit or miss, and yeh usually don't find out the door's open until all the cows are out of the barn. As new CC, remember in the future to actively pick and recruit people you really want for den leaders.