Beavah

Remember this from just last summer: http://keyetv.com/watercooler/watercooler_story_231194118.html A 14 year-old Boy Scout was taken to a Boston hospital on Friday after he was allegedly stabbed by a fellow camper. It happened at Camp Wanocksett, which is on the Dublin-Jaffrey town line around 7 a.m. Friday morning. The victim reportedly had the knife in his chest for the entirity of the helicopter ride to Boston....

Yah, oldsm. The expectations you mention are pretty much the same in our council. Fact is, I wish we were a bit stricter about it, havin' had a hard time with some really marginal workbooks that make it difficult for a BOR to do a good job for the scout. I think sometimes that Eagle Projects are the first time many boys have to do a practical writin' assignment with some "formality." Too bad, but that's the way it is in modern education. Better that they learn from us than not learn at all. Remember, our purpose is to help boys become honorable men and productive citizens. Our purpose is not a one-sentence excerpt from a 60 page guidebook that says "don't add to requirements," and our purpose is certainly not handin' out awards. If being explicit about what a good writeup is helps a boy to understand and develop skills he'll benefit from, then we should be all for it. The fact that it requires some energy and hard work on his part only makes his eventual victory all the sweeter. Yah, of course I'd forgive a lad if he chose to write in Northern Midwest dialect, eh?

Yah, I've always felt this was an awkward problem in the BSA. A few kids are ready to be real ASMs as 18 year old high school seniors. Even then, it's pretty hard and in many ways just absurd to suddenly be an "adult" when your (often same-grade) peers are still "youth." We can't really expect a lad to suddenly behave like an adult toward the buddies he still sits next to in English class, especially when often the "old kids" in the class aren't the natural leaders. And sure as shootin' some overly officious snot will tell him he can't share a tent with his best friend who's 3 months younger. At the same time, I think it can be pretty hard to convince parents of younger boys that the 18-year-old high school senior should really be trusted with their little Johnny. So here's an answer a few troops in our district have gone to: have the boy sign up as a youth member in a Venturing Crew to finish out his senior year. Don't get rid of him, but don't put him into an adult role until you're all comfortable with that. And of course, joint crew/troop campouts with youth members are just fine and dandy. Even spots for it on the tour permit. (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I agree with most of da posters, but I think it's all a matter of degree. I see plenty of troops that claim to be "boy run" but that I would consider more adult-directed. And I've seen a few troops that are boy run in a Lord of the Flies kinda way. The message yeh want to convey is that troops are different in how they use and view the methods. A few are strict, 100%, inspected uniform all the time everywhere. Some do some local uniform adaptations. Some are more relaxed, saving full uniform for ceremonies. A few are shirts only. Similarly, in a few troops the boys plan the calendar, set the dues, manage the budget and the checkbook, set the policies, handle most advancement, and have the primary voice in selecting the adult leaders. In many troops, the adults determine the finances, policies, leadership, and advancement, and youth leadership is more limited to meeting and outing details. In a few troops, the adults handle many meeting/outing details, too, and youth leadership is limited to more token things like making the duty roster. I think youth leadership is an important thing, and that adults should be shifting responsibilities to kids as they are ready, eh? But in terms of findin' a troop, families should look for a "good fit." A kid who's pretty independent and hates the uniform might be much more at home in a relaxed uniform, high-level of youth leadership troop. A kid who has more attention and behavior issues or who thrives in a more structured environment might need a stricter unit with more adult "presence" and control. Seriously, though, I think yer parents are better off lookin' at just two things: do they like and trust the SM (and ASMs, to a lesser extent), and do they like and trust the SPL (and PL's, to a lesser extent). The troop's character is reflected in those that are chosen as leaders, eh?

I'm goin' to (not so) gently suggest that a 5th grader who threatens other boys with a knife multiple times, with an expressed verbal threat to do harm to a defenseless boy, needs a big enough consequence to really get his attention. The world needs to come crashing down on his head. For this boy's sake, and other boys' sakes, the response has to be so awful that he never even thinks of ever doing something like that again. This is assault with a weapon people! He's a 5th grader, not a Tiger Cub. If you don't treat this as gravely serious and something else happens, oi!! Liability is the least of it; my personal opinion would be that you as an adult leader should be jailed. He loses the knife. He is sent home immediately. He loses the ability to ever carry a knife again. He is suspended for several months and until written letters of apology and some serious "penance" in the form of hard work and service. And his nonviolent parents better meet out their own discipline. If you've got a bully thing goin' on, yeh need to get control of that, too. Not by "shucks, o, gee, we should talk to the kids about that." Identify the bully. Call the parents. Send the bully home. Only to return following an apology, and then on probation. Second serious offense for either boy means gone for good and ever. Done firmly with character and courage, you will neither lose this boy or the other boys whose parents won't want them anywhere near a kid with a knife who gets mollycoddled by you, or a bully who you ignore. But even if you do lose him to Scouting, THAT'S OK if in the course of that experience he learns that threatening other people with weapons is something never to do again.

Hmmmm.... Yah. Personality Conflict is an over-used and pretty meaningless term to me. Usually these things are either a difference of vision, or a big ego and a difference of opinion on methods/tactics. If it's a difference in vision, the whole committee and the CO need to firmly assert the common vision, and make it clear that others can perhaps find their ideal vision in a different program. Fuzzy's gentle pressure to move 'em out is most common and friendly, provided you can hold on to other key volunteers and kids while "waiting." If it's a difference in tactics, some gentle committee education needs to happen to explain that tactics are the SM's domain, and honorable ladies and gentlemen on the committee keep their disagreements to themselves, until they're selected to be SM. But here you can work around people, move people into other positions that better make use of their unique personalities, that sort of thing. All reasons for havin' fixed terms. Gives you a clear, less threatening "change spot."

Gawds. Phone trees for everything? That's pretty rough on PL's in a troop of any size. Round here, anyway, it can take multiple phonecalls over multiple nights before yeh make contact with each individual. Blech. Not sure why your troop isn't doin' Patrol Meetings. Seems like an easier forum for 2-way communication, eh? As far as school calendars goes, seems like that's the PLC's issue, not the SM's, dontcha think? One of the problems around here is that a good troop/PLC is often farther ahead in their plannin' than the local school is, especially during a contract year. Conflicts happen. Kids should decide which are important enough to mess with their plans.

In the OMYGOODNESS thread, Lisa'bob talked about the question of how to introduce new scouts to the advancement system. It's true, eh? Cub Scout advancement, with its "do your best" and parent-driven nature is very different than Boy Scout advancement. The kids do have to learn the system, with a bit of teachin' and a lot of coachin' to get them going. So how does your troop introduce/teach/coach kids on the advancement system? Particularly, how do you help them get to their first earned rank (Tenderfoot)? How much do you do for them? How much do you push? How much do you just wait for them to take action? What do yeh think you could do better?

Fuzz is right, eh, but I consider that more of a paperwork thing. Reality is you don't have to wait to recharter, the CO and unit can set things up on any rotation they want. Round here, recharter is in January. Other councils I've been in had recharter all different months for different units. But if you're a cub pack, January is pretty silly; most positions change with the new school year in August/September. So choose a system that works for your unit, don't feel like you have to be bound by da recharter paperwork (though if that works for you, use it).

Yah, wingnut had a good answer, eh? That's the real answer, anyway. Personally I encourage units to have fixed terms of office, though, for everything. Makes it easier to recruit people if it's not completely open-ended. Can help with stability, too, if yeh stagger it a bit. A few troops around here have term limits, too. I'm sorta opposed to that, but it can bring in some new blood and prevent the "we've always done it this way" disease. So I'd suggest for MC's a term of 2 years, staggered. If yeh want to do the term limits thing, make it somethin' like 2 terms, then you have to be "off" for at least 1 term before you can be "on" again. One of the biggest problems I see in units is that they aren't selective enough about MC's and CC's. Sometimes a CC is just the loudest guy. Units should actively target and recruit for committee positions, especially key spots like Treasurer, Advancement, CC, etc. They should also actively recruit Wisdom for the TC - troop graduates, CO members, a doc, an attorney, a local outdoor guide. People who bring some depth and gravitas, and who are committed to the program as a whole, not (just) their own son.

Hiya Foxy, Easy there. Sounds like there's just a whole raft of issues, and you're on your last nerve. Take a deep breath, go for a walk and enjoy the leaves or da snow or whatever, set scoutin' aside for a minute. Then, rather than talkin' about all the symptoms, see if yeh can identify the cause. What one thing seems to be "off" in your troop operations? Address that, without gettin' into personalities. You don't really describe your troop committee, just "parents." So tell us a bit about your troop committee. Open (any parent can show up and gets a vote) or Closed (a defined committee membership)? Effective CC or weak CC? Any non-parent committee members? Strong ASMs or are you "it"? Off da cuff, I'd say you need to build up yer committee a bit. In the end, a parent or committee can only usurp the SM role to the extent the SM allows. If you want to send out a newsletter, grab your troop Scribe and a helpful adult and send out a newsletter. Yeh don't need to ask permission. If someone isn't doin' a good job as MBC, don't invite 'em back to meetings, and don't use 'em in the future. If someone is playin' "fast and loose" with the process, pull 'em aside and tell them "no." If a boy still comes with an unapproved Blue Card, remind him of the rules, then send him off to a new MBC for a "quick check/finish up." Only thing you have to decide is who is comfortable enough with confrontation to be the "bad cop," eh? It should be the CC if possible, but sometimes it's the SM, or a good UC. From afar, you need to figure out who that person is in your organization, or fix your setup somehow so that the program is protected. Sayin' "no" sometimes to adults is as important as sayin "no" sometimes to kids. It's how we keep a program strong, and how we teach character.

Yah, old Fox, we all feel your pain. Simple answer is that there's no way you'll ever change those leapord's spots. Parents who don't look beyond their own needs or "what they get out of it" aren't goin' to change, least not much. Certainly not by arguin' with 'em. All you can hope is that you provide a great example so their kids grow up more generous. So don't waste your energy on it. Spend your time with your "good" parents. Use 'em, cultivate 'em, listen to 'em, praise 'em. The others should get exactly as much of your time & attention as they give to the program (the program, mind, not their kid). As far as schedulin' and summer camp goes, that's up to the PLC. One family's schedule or desires, if their son passes 'em along to his PL, gets exactly the weight of one family. Welcome to representative democracy; yeh can't always get what you want. All we do is provide opportunities to kids. If they can't make it or don't want to come, that's their choice. The only courtesy issue is to try to decide on dates at least a reasonable time in advance, so families can plan around 'em. So hard as it is to deal with "I want ergo you must" parents, ignore 'em and move on, with a simple "sorry, that's the schedule, maybe you can rearrange or maybe junior will have to wait until next year. G'day." Or sometimes it may help if your CC explains that scoutin' is just like any other youth activity. They don't get a say in the football schedule or when the band concert is either.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

I know for a fact that no one in our council or the regional office ever does a DL search based on a tour permit. It might be used for part of the background check for when an adult submits an application for registration, but I think they only use SSN. So given that it isn't used, seems like a bit of an invasion to collect it. If they're worried about individual insurance coverage, which is reasonable in states that don't have mandatory coverage laws, then they should ask for the insurance carrier and policy number, not the DL. And in states with mandatory coverage, it's also a waste of time. I'm with eagle90. Da tour permit drivin' list is just bureaucratic make-work. Amounts to no more than a legal fig leaf, if that. As far as usin' the DL for other things, it's by far the most pervasive identity card. Used for everything includin' opening a bank account, cashing a check, rentin' a truck to fill with fertilizer, etc. All kinds of ways to do mischief with someone's DLN.

Yah, this is a duplicate thread, eh? Folks should go to the one in Uniforms. Moderators might want to take this one out.

Yah, sure, they fit on da shoulder tabs. If you're lookin' for the official guidelines, tho, then the answer is no. Green tabs only on the green uniform shirt (where they look pretty silly, IMHO. I like my grey tabs better on green than on tan, though). But who cares, eh? If the kids use that as a way to express that they're proud of bein' in both programs, sounds good to me. Da crew (which can set its own uniform) can call it an "alternate crew uniform" for joint activities.

Yah, the legal nonsense is just silly, eh. NO, there's no particular liability issues behind havin' an AED around, and even if there were, who cares?. Help other people at all times, be prepared, etc. Not "help other people only if there's no chance that some a** won't try to sue you." That's what insurance is for anyway. But the rest are right, eh. If it was a camporee budget item, then it's the council's cash to do what they want with, same as any camporee surplus. If it was donated $, though, then they should buy the thing or return the money. One thing you should do before buyin' an AED is check with your local EMS system. In some areas, they encourage standardization on a particular piece of equipment. That way, when the ambulance crew arrives, they can "hot swap" with their gear, which saves time and confusion.

Yah, well. If the income our council got were all distributed into program (given to units, camp support, insurance, and training), we wouldn't need any fundraisin', eh? I agree that families are nickled, dimed, and beat up by fundraising for a whole mess of different groups. Public schools 'round here are among the worst, with "mandatory" fundraisers for what they purport to be academic programs like band. Oughta be a law. Most of the options are "taken"; it's a very difficult thing for a new group to start anything without being very creative and more than a bit lucky. Cubs are good at popcorn; most troops and especially crews aren't that good at sales. I encourage troops to do things like dinners and breakfasts and such, more for the social opportunity with troop families workin' together. Crews can sometimes do work projects (helping seniors with yard work, etc.), for the same social reason. But reality is workin' a real job is a better way of raisin' money most of the time, eh? For bigger things, capital expenses for gear and campership support for kids, better to solicit donations through your CO. I think your IH's donation of a boat is an incredible gesture! Talk about a gift horse!

Nuthin' wrong with boulderin'. Just have to adjust a bit to the kids in terms of spottin', crash pads, and especially how high they go. Most of our climbin' munchkins in this area can do some whacky stuff. And canyoneering is fun, or at least would be for some venturers or a venture patrol. Just goes to show that makin' things safer doesn't improve safety. It just increases the craziness of the things you can do, eh?

In another thread, Kudu raised (in his inimitable way) the notion that the Hillcourt model of scouting suggested that PL's should stay PL's until they resigned or were removed, and accused 6-month terms of being a kow-tow to BSA Advancement/Leadership method. He also suggested that the SPL should be selected by the PL's, not by the troop as a whole. And he mentioned that in B-P's scheme, the SPL and other leadership positions were appointed. Sounds like a worthy discussion, eh? We've got the continental/British SPL=Prime Minister system, the B-P/corporate/military SPL=guy-promoted-to-General system, and the somewhat more American SPL=president-for-fixed-term by general election system. Which do you use in your troop? Have yeh ever thought about a different method? Why do you use the method you use?

Yah, look at all them bears, eh? At least it's da Beavers that are always startin' something. Here we sit like cute furry flat-tailed critters on a log, cute critters on a log, cute critters on a log, Here we sit like cute furry flat-tailed engineerin' critters on a log, Waitin for da Buffalo Patrol...

Yah, that's odd, eh? Sounds like another executive numbers game to me. I think you've got the right take on it. If it works for you to develop a cooperative relationship with another unit, then by all means do that. But yeh need to keep your own identity. Go find a school or a church or a day care center or a service organization or meet in kids' houses on a rotatin' schedule, or be adventurous and meet outdoors, or maybe do a ski night and a meeting in the lodge, or a bowling night and meet in a side room, or... There's lots of options besides dual registration.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Most other countries (including almost all western and democratic nations) offer coed scouting through the country's WOSM members. It might be that the small WAGGS groups in some countries have less "black and white" oaths, but I really couldn't say.

Good for your son, and good for you to support him. I hope you find a happy home in a new troop, one which also has programs that challenge high school aged boys.

Yah, Michelle, I agree with DanKroh. From afar, this looks like it may have neurological roots. That's worth looking into; the boy may do well with some very targeted help that addresses all of his neuromuscular challenges. Never sell these kids short. The key is the gentle, gradual approach like ASM59 suggests. Slow and steady, building trust and comfort, stretching but always backing off before or as soon as deeper anxiety hits. I'd also suggest buoyancy devices. Start with aquajoggers or water wings or even a good, tight-fitting life jacket (has to be secure and supportive). That should ease the anxiety of getting in the water - to start, tell him that he's going to wear flotation. Then just paddle around, shallow and deep, have splash wars, tread water, float, learn some simple strokes. Build confidence and endurance. When that becomes "just fine" for him, reduce the buoyancy and repeat. By that point, he'll have a lot of water time, all the basics of simple strokes and floats and treading, and a lot of trust in the instructor. Then move gently into no-floatation during a session when he's looking really well-rested and confident (don't announce it in advance so that he can worry himself for days of anticipation!!), working the way ASM59 suggests. Along the way it really helps if some older troop-mates tell him stories about how everybody has something they find hard - whether it's climbing (acrophobia), or claustrophobia, or a tough time swimmin' or bikin' or doin' math homework. It'll help a lot if it's viewed by peers as OK to be behind, but still working on something that's tough.

Yah, this is well outside my area, but it looks like the NY penal code section 265.20 (7-d) contains an exemption for kids under 12 using air rifles at an indoor or outdoor target range with qualified supervision. Still, I gotta admit that the NYS gun laws are a bit of restrictive mess, eh?