Beavah

Yah, here's some of my observations on what preparation helps new boys. * Parent-free experience - things like sleepovers at a buddy's house without mom and dad, a webelos overnight without mom and dad, going somewhere with a friend's family without mom and dad. * Having a basic level of fitness. Regular hikes, bikes, runs, whatever. The ability to do something moderately strenuous with confidence. * Some prior preparation with water/basic swim skills, which can be intimidating. * Some basic cooking (boil water, make noodles) and pot-cleaning experience. It's amazing how many Boy Scouts have never cleaned a plate before. * How to dress himself in the outdoors (dress properly for weather - as simple as puttin' on a rain jacket when it's rainin'). * How to keep his things organized (flashlight always goes in this upper pocket, etc.) * At least some time out having fun in "bad" weather. * At least a night or two sleeping in a tent. * At least a couple of experiences going to the bathroom in a pit toilet. * Some practice at working with/playing with older boys. All of these come in da same package as Barry's - "build basic confidence." If they can approach their first experiences with a reasonable sense that they "can do this" and have "success" on their first Boy Scout events, they're golden, eh?

I also have reservations about UC's serving in all the sections. I was thinkin' the same thing before Eamonn made his comment above. I personally think Commissioners should be limited to the one program they are most familiar with (packs, troops, or crews). They're just way too different to keep up to date and helpful on if yer mixin' and matching, and it's not great for pulling in other ideas for new commissioners. What do the rest of yeh think?

Yah, click23. Welcome to da world of commissionin'. Nuthin' new about your circumstances, that's a pretty common result from the new-unit-pressure of DE's and the occasional "adult behavior meltdown" that causes troops to split. I think you've got basically the right notion, though it's really hard to comment from afar without knowin' the CO's and all of the principal players. Personalities and resources make a lot of difference, eh? Sadly, they'll really determine how you try to proceed, rather than what the "objective best thing" is. Reality: You've got effectively one main troop in the area, and perhaps, maybe, one other viable troop (which currently exists as 3 troops). You've got one effective cub pack, which has some serious webelos retention issues. How you choose to try to "package" that reality depends on the personalities. Thing to look for: Is/Are there any adults in any of the troops (or the pack) who stand out as havin' the kind of character/enthusiasm to make a good SM? More than anything else, successful units develop around individuals "of the right sort." Find that person, and put him at the heart of your "possibly viable troopABC." If you have a second/extra, put him for now as the pack's bear-to-webelos guy, because your long-term viability depends on improvin' that webelos program and its retention. Don't make the mistake of only askin' once, either. Yer best candidates aren't dumb, they know the work it takes. I personally think anyone who says "yes" the first time shouldn't be a Scoutmaster. Give the idea time to percolate, and have some different people approach 'em again. Scout Law thing to think about: That Crew is really dead, eh? But we still have an obligation to those young ladies. As yeh consider the configuration, think about whether you can continue the crew charter with some of your many older boys from the troops. Might keep some of 'em from "Eagle-and-out," eh? Out-of-da-box alternative: Since your TroopABC seems to be almost all high school boys, why not dissolve all three of 'em and form a stronger crew? That'd give your area a viable pack, a healthy TroopD, and a reasonable Crew to pick up the kids that Troop D loses and to add girls. Probably too much silly adult politics and turf issues to pull it off, but worth maybe kickin' around. Beavah Eagle-and-outn. A young man who was given a patch, but never really earned the Eagle Scout rank.

Yah, don't knock da gatekeepers, eh? Gatekeepers are good people. They make sure the doc doin' your surgery might do well enough for you to walk away, or the bridge you drive on to work actually might hold your car. Absence of gatekeepers gets us cars that can't make it to 100K miles without huge repair expenses, or FEMA executives who couldn't manage a corner grocery let alone a hurricane response. We want to teach kids that honor demands not just workin' hard or puttin' in time, but doing it right. This isn't a gatekeeper problem, except perhaps the district committee not bein' a good enough gatekeeper on who gets the DAC job.

Yah, good then gwd. You know where you're goin', and you're small enough now that some steady growth will do you good as long as you don't get 20 webelos arrivin' on your doorstep all at once. Keep my thought at the back of your mind for 2-3 years down the road or so. And keep doin' fun things with da kids, eh?

While I agree that scouting can be flexible I do also understand that the above views are important to a lot of parents. Yah, I sometimes think most troops are too flexible, eh? Parents and are lookin' for commitment - on the part of their son, and on the part of the program their son enrolls in, and on the part of their son's "teammates", eh? Kids are lookin' to get good at stuff. Do yeh think kickin' a ball around a field is more fun than going campin' for a weekend? No way. But getting good at kicking a ball around and feelin' that personal success is very cool and a lot of fun. But to get good, yeh have to practice a lot, play a lot. So parents and kids see more "growth" from soccer than scouts, eh? All because those silly soccer leagues expect kids to be committed, trustworthy, loyal and such. And we, well, we're "flexible."

Yah, OK there AnEagle. This learnin' by trial and error and internet probably ain't the best way, eh? But at least yer askin' questions. Water / Not feelin' good. There's 3 easy ways to "deplete" yerself while out hikin. Water is the easiest. Too little water, lots of folks first start gettin' grumpy, then headaches, then other symptoms. Drink a bunch before you start, then every time you take a break. I'm about a quart every 2 hours on a regular hike. Don't carry it all, bring some iodine tablets and collect (and treat) H2O along the way at lakes and streams. Too few carbs is another, usually if you're young and it's strenuous hikin' with a pack, or you're fast-hikin. Starts as bein' too tired, suddenly findin' scramblin' hard, tripping when you normally wouldn't. Progresses to feelin' sick. Treat with powerbars, simple sugars. Too little salt is another. More rare, but happens if yer sweatin' up a storm, and drinkin' a lot, without eatin' much. Often shows up as cramps, progresses to feelin' weird and sick. Eat salty food, like a good trail mix. Guys gave you some good boyscout stuff to read, but I'd suggest somethin' like Allen & Mike's Really Cool Backpackin' Book. Order one from Amazon. Fun read, great tips, learn lots fast.

Yah, gwd, I like the news. Congratulations to your boys. Now, while you're looking at all the interest, is a good time to think about "how big do we want this troop to be?" What makes it "special?" What do we care about? Size necessarily changes troop operations, particularly when yeh go from 12 to 30, and again when you go from 40 to 60. Each step makes the SM and the SPL less personal examples/mentors and more "upper management." Just like the Peter Principle, a lotta troops rise to the level of their incompetence - they add members until they're no longer doing a good job and start losing kids. Think ahead of time how big you want to be, and how big you can be without sacrificin' quality or sanity. Take steps in advance of that to limit recruiting, to help start other troops, etc.

I'm right with yeh on the soloin'. Nuthin' better! And nothin' wrong with it, either. Depending on our personal skill levels, we all "solo" some things. Most of us "solo climb" staircases and ladders, even though a slip and fall can be painful or even deadly. Most of us would be comfortable solo hiking around the block, though there are still trip-and-fall (or hit-by-car, or attacked-by-dog) possibilities. You just have to be aware of your personal ability and exercise good judgment. AnEagle, I agree with Calico. Go join an outing club. They're fun, and have great people. There's also orienteering clubs around that run races through the woods which are fun, too, and might appeal to your group's sense of adventure. They welcome beginners. After all, it's embarrassin' to be rescued by a bunch of Boy Scouts after you get lost and hypothermic in the woods. You're right, a first aid kit is useless without the knowledge to use it. You can bring a few bandaids and some moleskin for sore spots, I guess. But I bet your outing club offers a WFA (Wilderness First Aid) course, and that's well worth it. As for snakes, unless yeh smell and look a lot like a mouse, they're not goin' to be very interested in you. They'll get out of yer way, if you give 'em half a chance. When you decide to sleep out, it can be more of an issue as you are kinda a nice warm spot to curl up with. But snakebite risk is pretty low, eh? If someone does get bit, take off jewelry like rings and bracelets and watches (the limb is goin' to swell), and get him/her to medical attention. You know, ambulance/hospital, quick as you can without makin' the person get their heart rate goin'. Usually best if they slow-walk to the nearest road; it takes forever to carry someone.

Hi AnEagle, Sounds like yeh need to join a Venture Crew in your area, with your friends! Good hikes, and even more fun crazy adventures. What yeh carry just depends too much on season, experience, and terrain to give great advice. I'd say Map always (and know how to use it) Compass if it's hard to navigate by just terrain. Appropriate lightweight clothing and footwear (raingear if there's ANY chance of rain) Flashlight if there's ANY chance of bein' out late, etc.) Water and some snacks. Camelbacks are great, but as simple as a 1-L pop bottle filled with water and a couple o' power bars. How many people depends on skill & terrain. Usually, we teach 4 minimum for a long hike. If there's a problem, one person stays and two people go for help, so no one is ever alone. But the more inexperienced people you have, the slower you go and the more "problems" you get. Havin' 4 inexperienced people can be worse than havin' just 2. Havin' 8 is much worse. OTOH, da more experienced people you have, the better. Never "push it." Your rule should be as soon as anybody is getting at all worried, they have to tell everyone else and you have to change plans/go back. Most of the disasters happen because of testosterone poisonin' eh? People who get in deep and swim out deeper rather than just goin' home and havin' a good story. You've learned some good lessons already. Don't split up is a good one, at least without a time and place rendezvous and a "bulletproof backup plan." But yeh still need to know how to keep together, eh? Lots of times "slow" people fall off the back of the group and get accidentally separated. Always put a strong person at the very end ("sweep") and have him shout if the lead gets too far ahead. Always have the lead stop and wait at a turn or confusin' spot, even if he's sure he knows which way to go. I'd modify your "don't hike in the dark without flashlights" to "don't hike in the dark." Flashlights allow you to see a stump before you trip, but they screw up your navigation by giving you such a limited view. Da only exceptions are an area you know really, really, really well; and even then, lots of people who aren't expert navigators get burned. I guess the other one can be full moon navigation in the open, but again, it requires "expert" skills. Have fun out there. Da world is full of adventure. Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. Just know when to retreat. There are old mountaineers and bold mountaineers, but no old, bold mountaineers.

Yah, it helps to have a team. More fun that way, and they can remind each other. They can also fill in when one person gets swamped by that nasty paper due for Mrs. Fussbudget's history class, eh?

Many kids, rather than do that, would just quit. I'm not sure I see how putting the boy in that position as a cub scout where quitting is a likely outcome will help him. Nah, if it were true that one "public correction" or behavioral consequence was enough to make a kid quit an activity, then the kid had very little invested in that activity and would end up quittin' at the next moment of adversity anyway (a rainy campout, not winnin' the Pinewood Derby, etc.). Public disappointments and consequences are a part of life, and are certainly a part of every youth activity, sport, etc. And kids aren't quittin' right and left. I certainly hope that every parent of a child older than 3 regularly teaches courtesy by having their child "say their sorry" when appropriate. And my point was that it's far "harsher" to a kid to not bring the incident to a definitive conclusion than it is to ask him to apologize to people he hurt or whose reputation he stained. That long, lingering ambiguity and distrust is far more likely to cause a kid to quit. Better that he "do his time and get rehabilitated" in everyone's eyes. So I think the under-the-rug approach is usually dead wrong for the boy on behavioral and social psychology grounds. But even if I'm tryin' to smell sweet amidst nothin' but cow pies, as scout leaders we also have to remember that we're not here for a particular boy, either one who is a "favorite" or one we feel "needs scouting." We're here for all da boys, eh? Yeh do what's right, yeh do what you can, but sometimes you let a sheep go because it's the best thing for the flock. A boy who doesn't care enough about the troop to mumble "I'm sorry" after threatenin' peers with a knife is probably one of those sheep, eh?

I hope this boy learned a serious lesson from his experience but I also hope he isn't made an example of for the rest of his time in scouting. Everybody deserves the chance to grow from their mistakes. Seen a lot of troops try different things over the years. I have to agree with evmori. Havin' a public component of apology/penance that other boys witness is adviseable, even necessary, for exactly da reason Lisa'bob describes. If you don't have a public component, that everybody sees, then the boy's actions really will be held against him by other boys, and other parents, for the rest of his time in scouting. Public actions reassure everyone. They allow the boy to show understanding and remorse, and then be forgiven and welcomed back. They allow those who were injured/scared by the boy's actions to see consequences, and be assured that their welfare is being taken care of. That allows them to forgive and move on - they see the boy has "done his time." Yes, owning up to and admitting his mistakes in public is difficult, but with firm and caring adults it is a necessary trauma that teaches good lessons. We all need to admit and own up to our mistakes with our friends and family. It is much more kind to the boy than keeping things private, because it allows the incident to be resolved in everyone's mind. It keeps the boy as "family."

Adult Leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of the youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed of the problems and asked for assistance in dealing with it. Yah, Fuzzy, thanks for helpin' me make my point. All that material. Trainin' covers only a fraction of it, and quickly. And out of all that material, we get one sentence that adults should monitor and intercede, but nuthin' at all about how. The natural thing, especially for cub scouts where parents are supposed to be around, is to leave it to the individual parent, or a loose "cloud" of adults where no one is specifically responsible. In all the rest of society, it's considered rude or quite inappropriate to "intercede" with other people's kids, eh? And it's hard, when the boy may not know you that well, and it's harder when boys are in a group. And it's hardest when somethin' happens that you've never thought of before, like a boy brandishing a knife. Yah, heck, no where in the materials or in trainin' is a cub leader ever even told that a good option in a serious offense is to send the boy home. Seen it over and over again. BSA trainin' is completely inadequate when it comes to managing youth behaviors.

Many good questions and thoughts. Good eyes on gwd for figurin' out "the real way it seems to work." Blue Cards - Most councils/districts don't use them or do anything with them, though not all troops know that. All advancement entry is based on the Advancement Report Form (or now on electronic entry by the troop). So practically, it's up to a troop whether Blue Cards is the way they want kids to keep track. I personally think usin' the USSSP or MeritBadge.com sheets is easier and works better. Now, as to gettin' counselors. You really want to use a rifle, not a shotgun. Only a subset of parents are good at the MBC business. So to really get your program up and runnin', I suggest: 1) Identify a few people who you feel are "good" MBC's - ones who make the MB fun & interesting, who expect each kid individually to meet all the requirements, and who make it an appropriate challenge. 2) Recruit just a few people at a time, beginnin' with the "required" MB list. Give preference at the beginnin' to people who can do more than one badge. You should build this up gradually and well, rather than rush it. 3) Do the background/reference checks yeh should do on everyone. More than a lot of scoutin' adults, these people will have the opportunity to meet with boys individually, with no other adult lookin' over their shoulder. Call the references. Be thorough. 4) Get the MBC's trained. YPT first, then MBC trainin'. Some districts provide this, but you can also do it in-house, which helps with settin' up your system for tracking and expectations. 5) Have each person team-teach a MB at least once with one of your "good" MBC's. Works best if the "good" counselor leads one, and then the "new" counselor leads one. This is the most critical step. More than anything else, this sets the tone, gives people experience with the expectations, and gives you a chance to see whether the person will "work out" as a MBC. It also establishes a friendly, known "mentor" that the new MBC can call with any questions/problems down the road. Plus it's fun, eh? As far as where to look for MBC's, that kinda depends on what you need. Most troops try to find an ASM-type person for the outdoorsy badges, because they're most likely to be in the field with the boys to be able to do those. For hobby badges, there are all kinds of local hobby groups - HAM radio clubs for Radio, rocket clubs for Space Exploration, stamp clubs for Stamp Collecting, etc. I find Citizenship badges hard sometimes; seems like few adults know the Cit. Nation material and even fewer are proficient in the Cit. World stuff. Any local politician, or anybody from the local branch of a political party is good for Cit. Community/Cit. Nation. Yeh want to find people who love the stuff, eh? Not just people who will "go through it" but ones who will bring it to life! Round here it's sometimes hard to get people who are good at some outdoor things. Canoein' is always a bugger; seems like 2/3 of the Canoe MBC counselors aren't much beyond beginners themselves. Sometimes yeh can get help by callin' one of the national organizations and askin' them for local affiliates or members - like callin' the American Canoe Association. Local shops or outfitters can be good, too.

Get your leaders properly trained. Yah, I may be wrong here, but can anybody tell me where in any BSA training module there is any substantive discussion and practice of managing groups of kids of different ages, providing discipline, and/or dealing with "serious" discipline cases? I can't think of any. Trainin' is a good start, it provides a decent overview. But it ain't usually enough to develop any real knowledge or skills, and it certainly isn't a panacea.

I think you will find that a majority of scouters will not wear unlicensed patches on their uniforms for one reason or another. Guffaw!! That's hysterical, eh? There's a whole cottage industry in spoof patches, and thank goodness most scouting adults have a sense of humor and try not to take ourselves too seriously. Yah, I'll join Oak Tree. Put me down for 5 if you decide to do an order. Maybe we forum folk can all help you out.

I dunno... Seems like it'd be nice if boys were encouraged to pursue religious emblems/awards, and the only way to do that is to know somethin' about their faith so as to know how to direct them. Might also be nice to celebrate holidays of different religious traditions when they fall on troop meetings and campouts. I think bein' Reverent means bein' respectful and open and sharing about religion, not treating any talk of it as taboo.

Yah, OK. It's too bad your son didn't try the Extension route. Would have been easier, and more respectful. But in the end, if everything else was in order, the project was reasonable and would have been approved, was well executed, and the boy was worthy of being an Eagle Scout in the eyes of the EBOR in every way except paperwork, then we must return to our principles: A badge is a recognition of what a young person is able to do, not a reward for what he has done. If the young man is able to do, then we should Recognize that. Get the reasons for the denial in writing, which the EBOR is required to do. Have the CC and Eagle Advisor write up an Appeal to the Council Advancement Committee, and then to National if necessary. Keep yourself and your son out of it; it's now up to the adults to fix the system on his behalf. I can all but guarantee that an appeal to National under these circumstances, with the adults taking responsibility for the error, will be resolved in the boy's favor. Then someone needs to take your DAC out to the woodshed. It's [WHACK] about [WHACK] the Principles [WHACK] not the [WHACK] bureaucratic [WHACK] rules [WHACK] [WHACK] [WHACK].

Yah, a Scout Salute to you as a fellow Eagle, '06! And a second salute as yeh join the ranks of volunteers who care a lot about passin' on the Scouting torch to our younger colleagues! 1. I'd encourage you to think about "communication" in a bigger way than phone trees. We're in the multimedia century, so be multimedia. Web, email, phone, meeting announcements, mailed newsletters. It doesn't have to be as obnoxious as the recent politicking, but there's a reason they annoyed us with the multimedia blitz, eh? If yer just tryin' to perfect the phone tree, though, remember the Number Two adult scouting rule: specify the outcome, not the means. If your requirement is "every kid gets called" then cool. After the next phone tree, write down the % of kids successfully called for each patrol and post it prominently, and make a big deal about how cool the highest % patrol leader is. They'll figure it out pretty quick. In a couple of months, the public recognition (or embarrassment) will do your job for you. 2. You'll see from these forums that even adults have trouble with Patrol Method lots of times. Glad you're lookin' at it objectively; it takes some work to get better. The problem is sometimes that troops that rely too much on the Advancement Method undermine patrols and teamwork, because Advancement Method is all about the individual. Yah, if you want your patrols to become better teams, then there has to be a reason for them to be a team, eh? It's got to count, somehow. So figure out how you're goin' to make it count. Competition can work wonders. Yeh don't need prizes, just Pride, and "winning" a competition is its own reward and motivator. There are other ways, though... a really strong patrol can get to do a harder/cooler route or activity on an outing, eh? Maybe you can even come up with a "Patrol Advancement" scheme. 3. You can't. Figurin' out the importance of Scouting is something each of us has to find for ourselves. Your example, by how you spend your time, speaks a lot louder than any silly adult speech about Eagle and college admissions or such nonsense. Live the Oath and Law. Work hard to keep makin' yourself Physically Stronger, Mentally Sharper, Morally more Courageous. Share Adventure and kindness with the kids. Dat's what's really important about Scoutin', eh? (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Many, many years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth a young Beavah slipped while climbing a tree, and found himself danglin' from one hand high enough up to be pretty scared. Grandpa Beavah, who was standin' below in easy reach, didn't help. He didn't rescue me. He didn't offer advice. He just kept watchin' and said "You can do it." I was probably only about 6 at the time, but I still remember that. For you, Lisa'mom, I think you listen, sympathize, and tell your son how proud you are of him for taking on and stickin' with such a tough task. Refrain from givin' advice, because most advice from Mom tends to be heard as criticism and lack of trust. Talk to him about his strengths and talents. Praise him a bit more to neighbors and relatives in his hearing. Let him see your admiration and confidence in him. That should be enough to get him to keep pluggin' and seeking out solutions on his own, using his other resources. Then, maybe, just a quiet word on the side to whatever leader, youth or adult, your son has made a "connection" with, to let him/her know what's up. It doesn't have to be the SM, in fact, it's usually best if it's whoever your son likes/looks up to/listens to. But the "big job" for you as parent is to provide the stable reservoir of unconditional pride, support, and admiration that every child needs as he begins to engage with the rough-and-tumble of the wider world. Leave the advice to his other resources, and his own devices. That way the (eventual) victory is entirely his, while the smiles are secretly all yours.

Our local council has a policy of no knives over 4" in blade length and folding blades are strongly recommended. Also, the Scout Camps in our council have rules in place like - no sheath blades - period, ... but let's use common sense... Yah, eagle-pete. I've never quite figured out what the whole hang up with fixed-blade knives is. Worked a lotta years in health lodges, and worked with a lotta knives, and I can tell yeh that those fiddlin' little cheap crap folding blade pen knives cause the most injuries, some of 'em serious. Especially in kids, who aren't careful about the limits of non-locking blades and care in closing. Some of our colleague scout associations in Europe require fixed blade "sheath" knives for safety reasons. The reason for the blade length limit has to do with weapons laws in some states (though I've never figured out what those states do about bread knives, eh? ). The reason for a prohibition on fixed-blade knives is some ignoramus doesn't understand how to do real risk management.

as we know, fixed blades, such as hunting knives are against BSA rules. Nah. No such rule. "We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives." (G2SS #34416 p. 43) In most cases, a fixed-blade knife is safer than a folding knife, especially a non-locking folding blade knife. The only loose BSA guideline is to "avoid large sheath knives [because] they are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish." In other words, proper tool for proper job. Da problem wasn't the knife. The boy could have been stabbed with any knife. The problem was the lack of supervision and instillin' in the kids a respect for the proper use of any type of knife. Amazin' how similar this was to Its Me's case, eh? Some bullyin' and pranksterin' that ends in brandishing a knife and a stabbing. It's Me's case stopped short of the stabbin', but give the boy a year or two to get older and more resolute.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, da boys should solicit calendar conflicts from the kids in their patrols, and then the PLC, lookin' at the calendar conflicts for their guys and the overall PLC calendar plan should decide on the best week for camp. The SM can offer insight that the kids might miss, like "sometimes the last week of camp the staff are tired, and it isn't as good," or the SM might need to pass along "it will be hard to get enough adults for the 4th of July week, so we might have to have a backup." After that, the kids get final say. How they do that, by consensus or vote, is up to them, but yeh can help by coachin' them on the plusses and minuses of each way of decidin'. As far as your first one about da Christmas parade goes, the boys should have been left alone on that, eh? Yah, sure, the SM can point out that he doesn't know who has a trailer and that might be a problem, but then it's up to the boys, SM and committee to go out and find a trailer to help the boys put on the program they chose, eh? Only if that fails do the boys (not the adults) have to consider changin' their plans.

YPT guidelines are clear that an 18 year old ASM can't tent with a 17 year old Scout - even if they are the best of friends. However, a 17 year old Scout can also be a 17 year old Venturer, and they may be able to share a tent on Venturing outings Yah, that's the case. Humorous, ain't it? Common sense, people, common sense. If you exercise your duty to be Mentally Awake you will do just fine in terms of safety and youth protection and everything else. There just ain't a YP issue in havin' an 18 year old "youth" senior tenting with his best friend who is a 17 year old senior. Heck, that 18 year old is showerin' every day after school with that 17 year-old in the school locker room, and probably with some 14-year-olds too. There's a much bigger YP and legal issue with trustin' an 18 year old with supervision of peers as an ASM.