Beavah

But I have to wonder why this discussion continues, when the answer has been established? Yah, because there's not just one answer, eh? There's a bunch of different related answers, each of which helps us see a bigger picture and more possibilities. I think hearin' multiple different approaches develops understanding, and understanding is far more valuable than knowing an answer. Like BA, I'd never tell anyone what to wear on their uniform, beyond offerin' some different thoughts if I was asked. Though I'm not above teasin' fellow old codgers who get a bit over the top . Of course if we've earned a knot (or even bought one) we can wear it. Nobody to stop us, eh? (Answer 1) There's not even a specific guideline prohibiting it (Answer 2), just a general ones telling us to keep the uniform simple, non-military, and program-specific (Answer 3). That's before we get into different communities' perceptions of good taste, and different levels of value placed on humility. I think the mention of "cred" for beads or knots is an interestin' one, too. Does our critterlyness make other scouters want to take WB, or is it off-putting and a bit elitist? Or just goofy? Dat's the same tension with knots, I think. So different answers. Whether we should do something depends a bit on who we are, where we are, what we care about, and some just plain pragmatic good sense. And on our understanding of those things. Dat's what I think the original question was asking, and looking for, eh? Understanding. Different perspectives to help make a choice. Beavah BTW, You too can get a critter name, and a whole bunch of furry (or feathered) brothers and sisters around da world. Both are readily available at a Woodbadge course near you! Most of us don't bite, but yeh gotta watch out for dem Bears.

Some recent quotes.... After readying many many of [name]s post, I am very confident that my Troop when I was Scoutmaster was more boy run than any troop he will ever lead.... from what I read, [he] doesn't understand heart of the program, only the written facts and details. I remember reading somewhere, I don't remember where, that Badon Powell had the same worries and problems with adult leaders. Many of them were very self-serving and there wasn't any real solution to prevent it. ***** This is the third time that you have insisted that the two programs "have basically the same mechanics," but you never respond to the "written facts and details," do you? Perhaps if you debated the details rather than bragging about your superior "understanding of the heart of the program," you would not have to fashion such purely personal attacks in your attempt to say something hurtful. ***** I dont trust you [name], because... ***** Excuse me, but what a bunch of hog wash! ***** [Name],....All of that is explained in the SM HB - again I ask, do you even have a copy? ***** What you are doing is called "projection," [name], or as kids say "It takes one to know one." .... People should be asking themselves "Why exactly is [name] so obsessed with [name]?" ***** Hmmmm, cheap shot, but I'll answer anyway..... [2 paragraphs of puffery].... Maybe now we can move on to something other than questioning my reading ability. ***** [name], Congratulations on your large collection. Me, I go for quality, not quantity. ***** FRIENDS AND FELLOW SCOUTERS, I had promised to come back occasionally on forum courtesy. I offer the above quotations as a sample, with the simple question Are we living Scout Spirit the way we want to? And, if not, what will we do in the future to do better? I would suggest two simple things. The first is to avoid you and name. Its just too easy in print to read those incorrectly as addressing a person, rather than an argument or idea. When we find ourselves slipping into a public version of BLANK is wrong or YOU blankety blank", its a good flag to cause us to stop and reflect. The second comes from tracing back some of the heat to a posters very reasonable request for help with a troop issue she was struggling with. This was a response she got: Start by telling this problem Scout the truth: a BSA Troop is NOT "boy-led," it is adult-led. BSA adults do not believe in B-P's Patrol System, so they took all the evaluation powers away from the Patrol Leaders and gave them to themselves. BSA leaders call their Patrol Leader powers "Adult Association." I didnt read this as a helpful or friendly response to the question. It seemed to me to be (at best) more appropriate as an invitation to a row over in the issues forum, eh? Others must have read it the same way I did, by their responses, and the thread departed from there. Even in da issues forum, the difficulty with proposing theory from BP or anybody else is its way too easy to misinterpret words or have them viewed through different color glasses. And, too, whenever any of us proposes one right way or that all "BSA adults" believe something, its bound to raise the hackles of everyone else who has been successful doin it another way. Heck, I have a hard time even suggestin' there's more than one right way, because people read that as a personal criticism. Id suggest that its easier to say Heres how Ive done it/seen it done, and how I think about it. Thats an invitation to someone to consider an idea from your point of view, rather than a statement that the theory demands a particular action. For example, I would love to have Kudu describe his real-life troop and what exactly he does to live the BP way successfully, and where he struggles. That does a lot more for me than quotin books, new or old, in a quest to claim "authority" over a topic. I freely admit Im personally not always da best at that, especially when someone else starts out with one right way. So I will join the group in tryin to do better. Beavah

Thanks, Aquila, Concluded is the Passover Seder According to its law and custom As we have lived to celebrate it So may we live to celebrate it again. Pure One, who dwells in his habitation Redress the countless congregation Speedily lead the offshoots of thy stock Redeemed, to Zion in joyous song. Next year in Jerusalem! A Blessed Passover to our brothers and sisters in Scouting for whom such wishes are appropriate. Beavah

If only 5 medals or knots are allowed, why o why does the IG have a rendering of a left pocket showing 4 knots and 2 medals? LOL. Yah, and it's likely one of da square knots under the Eagle medal was red white and blue and another is silver on purple . Golly I think that drawin' goes back a heck of a long time. IIRC, the "uniform simplicity" rule is more recent. I reckon one drawing is less expensive than two, and helps yeh fit everything on a page. Anyway, da thing is a schematic drawing, showing in one place how knots and/or medals are to be arranged so yeh know where to sew/how to attach. Like almost all of da BSA materials, the IG is a guidebook. It's meant to be a resource, not an iron-clad, perfectly consistent manual of carefully cross-referenced rules (and pictures!) for scouting life. One of the great recreations of old-timers is catchin' all the inconsistencies and havin' a good chuckle. My favorite is the (attorney-added) "Scouting Identification" rule. Can you list the number of official badges that violate that one? Mostly, I'm happy if all the grammar in a handbook is OK. So wear what works for yeh, or more properly what works for your kids, after considerin' the guidelines' intent. Me, I keep it simple. Though I'll admit I have a mess o'knots on a backing in a drawer just in case I'm ever at an event where "such a display is invited" . Beavah (not a "wise one". Them's the Owl's. We Beavahs are industrious, hard-workin', practical types )

Do yeh have patrol competitions? Just dock the patrol of the cusser in the next competition, eh? Yeh want to generate positive peer pressure, and you do that by handicappin' the group for the failures of one of their number. No yellin, no fumin', no callin' parents. Certainly no "having a word with them," which rarely accomplishes anything beyond makin' it go underground briefly. Just simple consequences and peer enforcement.

Yah, I think gwd is on to a real problem. See it some around here for sure. The problem is that all of the arguments people are givin' in the thread really only work after parents have gotten to know you and made significant contact with your program. And it's hard for any argument to beat the visceral "out of control" feeling boy led leaves people with. Whether it's worry about starvin' or something else. That's some of the reason for NSP/FCFY, eh? Create a sort of webelos/boy scouting "hybrid" for a year to ease the transition. Only contact with select/"safe" older boys designated as Troop Guides. Dedicated ASM. Focused program that shows "organization" and "steady progress" and all that. Plenty of troops go that way and are effective, especially in crossover/year 1. Yah, sure, some of 'em also stay Webelos III. If yeh don't take that approach, I think you have to go a bit out of your way to seem well-organized and "on the ball" during recruiting season. Newsletters, phonecalls, better-than-average communication. Some tightly focused stuff for the parents to go along with fun for da kids. It's a nervous thing for a parent sendin' their kid off with strangers and a bunch of older boys. They want to see tight, safe, well-organized. So meet 'em where they are. Do what you can to convey that message. That way you'll have the chance to deliver your message over time to more receptive ears. Beavah

Yah, BA, no selective editing intended, I pretty much copied the same thing you did (though I included the bold face that's in the original document ). The section in the guide is "Special Regulations" and the whole section clearly applies to all Members, both youth and adult. In Medals & Embroidered knots, it recommends no more than 5 medals, and goes on to describe how embroidered knots are a representative/substitute for the medals. So Jeff H is about right in sayin' 6 knots or less (one extra as an allowance for things like District Award of Merit that aren't a medal ). But it's just a guidebook, eh? Best to understand the reason, which is pretty much what Jeff H and Gonzo described. The BSA doesn't want us to project an image to the public that makes the average Joe think of Manuel Noriega in his prime, or even other far more honorable military garb. Simplicity is good taste. Dat's why in most publication photos, you'll find fairly simple and "clean" adult uniforms, not bespangled by multiple rows of knots. And I daresay it's a good thing about woodbadge, havin' everyone lay off the puffery for a bit and recognize one another as equal brothers in carin' for kids. As far as youth awards go, I like it when adult cubbers wear AOL, or boy scouters wear Eagle, or venturing advisors wear silver/ace/qm. Shows the youth "they were there." For the program they're serving, though. No point in AOL if you're a boy scouter, or Eagle if you're an advisor or skipper. But if your unit or tmonahan's has a different tradition, it's OK to consciously do somethin' different than a guidebook if it works for your kids and families. Some units believe in and promote adult awards a lot more than others. Just important for people to think about all the angles so their decision is really a considered one. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Why wouldn't they wear them? [Fumble fumble trip oops rustle rustle ahhhh] Yes, here it is. "Members wear only the insignia that show their present status in the movement. Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered. Previously earned badges and insignia - not representing present status - make a fine display on a BSA red patch vest, a trophy hide or blanket, exhibited in the home of the recipient, or at functions where such a display is invited." (Insignia Guide p. 4., special regulations - Excess Insignia) Yah, dat's the book reason, eh? All kinds of practical reasons for the rule, most especially what Jeff H says. Looks too military to most ordinary folk (and often a bad version of military at that). It's just not the image the BSA wants us to project to the community. I always encourage scouters to keep the uniform simple, and wear only those knots or medals that mean something special to them, and/or reflect their current role. So a troop leader wearing cubbing knots, or a Venturing Scouter wearing boy scouting knots just doesn't seem appropriate. I succeed with some and knot with others . Different strokes, and some are more into "personal statements" or wearin' lots of finery. Me I always thought that understatement serves as a better display of character. So tmonahan, go with what your troop's style seems to be - lots of knots or few, or go with the BSA and keep the uniform simple and relevant to your current position, or keep 'em on if they're important to you or yeh don't want to do any more sewing, eh? But regardless, spend some time aimin' to earn some of them Boy Scout awards. Beavah

Yah, kahits. What jblake said in big dittos. Never create a structure that isn't real and try to shoehorn kids into it. Having 3 patrols in a 10-person troop just isn't real. You have one patrol. Consider yourself lucky - everyone can know everybody, the young boys get to see the example set by the old boys, the old boys get to mentor the young ones. All da things BP wanted in a patrol of boys you've got. So be happy, you've got all the ingredients for a fantastic patrol-based scouting program. Enjoy it. Da other stuff with SPL's and PLC's and all that is all meant for managing bigger troops. Don't even think about a second patrol until you get above 16 active boys (and then plan that transition with care... see http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=152463#id_152988) Beavah

Yah, I think da easiest and best way to think about it is that every unit has its strengths and weaknesses, and every unit has things it emphasizes and ones it doesn't. That's a nice way to talk about your unit and others that gives people a feel of common service. For example, one troop I work with puts a lot of emphasis on uniforming and advancement. They look sharp, their boys move along, they frequently do "public" service like parades and such. Outing-wise they mostly car camp 9 months a year, no real high adventure, OK but not great use of patrol method. Lots of active adults. Another troop is more relaxed about advancement, go-at-your-own-pace. Lax uniforming, but lots of outdoors - great age-appropriate adventures year round, and an active Venture Patrol. Better patrol method and youth leadership, but a much smaller level of adult support. If yeh want, you could find things to "disparage" in each of these programs. Better I think to talk about what each does well. Telling someone, "Our troop emphasizes XXX and YYY, so you'll see us do a lot of ZZZ" and "Da troop down the street runs a great program, just different. They put more emphasis on AAA and BBB than we do, and that means they CCC". Yeh should find the program you think is the "best fit" for your son and your family. Don't get into right vs. wrong. Just talk honestly about different strengths and styles.

Yah, the Appointed POR's thread was gettin' off into squabbling about theory, so it seemed like a breather and some just plain campfire sharin' was in order. For your troop, how exactly do you determine SPL and PL's? How long is a "term"? How about other positions? Do you use elections? Do you put any restrictions on who is eligible (ex. rank requirement, SM approval, etc.)? How 'bout requirements to stay in a position? (recall elections? removal for non-performance?). If you use elections, how do you actually conduct the elections (speeches, one night, many nights, what if few patrol members show that night, etc.)? If you do something else, tell us about that, too. Please, as a courtesy, before you begin "dialog" about another person's post, share exactly how your unit handles things, and your own reflections on where that's worked well and what the challenges have been. And include anything about your troop (size, makeup, etc.) that you feel is relevant. That way we all know where we're coming from, eh? And some as may be struggling might see some new ideas. Beavah

I am always shocked how many guys going for eagle around 16-17 still dont have Family Life. That one is made for 12 year olds. Yah, I always thought it would be helpful if someone would outline a rough order for those pesky required badges, or "age appropriate guidelines" for MB's. Nuthin' quite like doing Family Life right before you head off to college, or tryin' to do Cit. World as a 12-year-old. queenj, here's what I'd say. FUN AND EASY first. Yeh want your son's first contact with the MB program to be a success. Crafts badges at summer camp are often used for this. Swimming is great if your boy already knows how to swim. So is coin collecting if he's already an avid coin collector. Family Life is a good starter "required" badge for both of you. Trust your SM to direct your son to age-appropriate badges where he can be successful. Don't push your son. Let the program pull.

Yah, Kudu makes a decent point, eh? Lots of times, youth leader elections can really be a means of ensuring an adult-run troop. Adults just aren't going to trust a youth leader with independent action if they don't feel he's up to it. And they shouldn't, eh? Not safe. So the result is a lot more adult involvement. Often better to appoint or at least screen PL's. That way the PL's are ones the adults can trust with independence, and therefore stay out of the way. I've seen it done both ways, though myself I always did the elected thing. These days, I lean toward appointed or screened, with youth input. Makes for more youth-run in all the other areas. In terms of citizenship, we have to remember that the Founding Fathers established democracy largely as a way of restraining government - and even they weren't very fond of direct democracy, eh? I'm not sure that we want our PLC's and youth leaders "restrained" in the same way we want government to be. Use what works for you. And if yeh find that electing poor PL's is costing you in terms of lost youth or more direct adult involvement, then by all means, try something different! Beavah

This is turning out to be expensive! I just found Hand Bearing Compasses on sale! There goes another $60.00. The ASA course and DVD is another $65.00 and I haven't left the house!! Yah, like all hobbies boatin' can be addictive. Yeh know, you can upgrade that hand bearing compass to a set of binoculars with a built-in bearing compass for just a bit more dough.... You know, it's all for da kids.... B. (seriously, though, you can get by with a Silva hiking/orienteering compass with a sighting mirror, if yeh want to save a few bucks. Just makes you think for a sec to avoid a 180 degree confusion.)

Yah, I gotta say that I will not read this letter to any kids. Might just be me, but I think highly of bein' Trustworthy, and for me a part of that is not giving kids poor information or really poor science under the color of my authority. OK, maybe to older kids as an example of arguments you need to examine with great skepticism and a critical eye . Lots o' men in my state would be addicted to hunting by the definitions here. For me, it would be fly fishin', scouting, and several other hobbies. And some weeks hangin' around forums like this one, eh? I particularly like the bit about dopamine. Oh gosh, playing video games shows up in da "chemical" dopamine in the brain, just like amphetamine addicts! Or like running a couple of miles. Or like eating a few slices of good pizza. Or like gettin' really into a good book. Or like comin' home and kissin' the beautiful Mrs. Beavah. And let's not even get into the average adult's cup of coffee, which has as strong or stronger effect on dopamine levels. Gimme a break. Video games are fun. I think they're especially fun for kids these days because they are kid-led and adult free. They are one of the few places left where "free play" still exists in a child's life. Yeh get to run around, experiment, fall down, "die", be social and just learn from interacting with the (virtual) world. Yeh get to try things over and over until you succeed, with no pressure of a "test" or "competition", just the fun of gettin' better. You know, all the things we've taken away from kids by "organizing" all of the rest of their life. Yah, sure, all things in moderation. It's possible to watch too much TV (worst), play video games too long (not as bad), get pushed into sports too much when you're young, be too much of a bookworm, or even spend too much time fly fishin'. Ordinary good parenting required. Fear of "addiction" not necessary at all. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Weird, my last post didn't post. Now I forgot all da cool stuff I said! This is an important thing to understand about the advancement method, eh? When we adults cut corners, give too much "benefit of the doubt" and such trying to get a kid an award, the other scouts who have been listening to us talk about what Eagle is supposed to mean can feel betrayed. I think honesty is always best. If corners were cut or exceptions were made, acknowledge that. If you thought they were justified, share in a non-judgmental way why you thought it was OK. Teens have a keen sense of justice, but they sometimes have to learn how we balance justice with mercy. If you agree with his perceptions, acknowledge that, too. But then talk about how it's hard even for adults to find the right balance, and how rightly or wrongly sometimes people avoid conflict. We support each other even when we think someone made the wrong call. Both should get you in the end to a real measure of character being what we hold ourselves to. Express your confidence in him that he will make it to Eagle "for real" with no corners cut, and in so doing will set a standard and example that will help adults and future kids in the troop do better. Great Scoutmaster be with you in that endeavor. It's hard to repair with words what we have done with actions. Beavah

Yah, SueM, with that additional information I have to say... yeh should listen to the other good folks in your neighborhood who have experience. If a lot of parents and other scouters are saying this boy is a real problem who is harming your program, then there's a consequence for that. A parting of the ways. Your time and energy is best spent on other boys, eh? Plus, that's often the right lesson in character that the boy needs. Choices have consequences. Two other thoughts. Yah, first, I generally find that former SM's make poor CC's if it's too close in time. Different skill set is needed; too hard to avoid slippin' into the SM role. You can help by suggesting some CC-like projects for him - fundraising for capital equipment, managing paperwork, representing the troop in service to the district and such. Try to give 'im somthing that can be his. Second, don't you be pullin' your son out for a break or workin' at home or any of that stuff! Too easy to be projecting your own fatigue on to him. Like as not, he won't need much of a breather, and there can be a positive cache to being a former SPL. What he does has got to be his choice, never forget. Yah, I'd steer him toward Troop Guide, eh? Seems like a position where he can grow to another level of success. Beavah

CNY, I wasn't sure from your post. Did you get what you needed or do you need pointin' to another resource? Let me know. This one leader acts like the BSA has no experience with shooting sports. I have to think that the BSA understands the risks involved with shooting sports as I see that shooting has been around ever since the introduction of the Marksmanship MB in 1911. Yah, I think we have to be a bit humble and recognize the experience of others. He's right, yeh know. I expect that shooting sports clubs full of NRA instructors really do have a lot more experience with shooting sports than the BSA. Just like ACA instructors know more about paddlesports, SOLO knows more about wilderness medicine, competent climbing clubs and outfitters have a lot more experience with climbin', etc. It's OK to acknowledge that and use it as a resource, eh? In fact, that's what Venturing training and Powderhorn tell us to do! Where the BSA has real expertise is in helping CO's and clubs like the shooting sports club put together an effective, long-term youth program that builds future members, draws in adult and parent members, and strengthens both the organization and the community. Running a range or a rifle contest is only one aspect of runnin' a successful youth program. And most shooting clubs and other organizations don't have anywhere near the BSA's experience with running adventure learning programs of all kinds. Lots of times when they try to put together a youth program, it's very short-lived and very small. That's why the partnership. Sure, teach us about shootin' sports, we acknowledge your expertise. Now let us teach you about youth programs. Beavah

Chapman's! Egad. Have yeh tried the American Sailing Association stuff? http://www.asa.com. I hear it's pretty good, very focused. USSailing might have some stuff, too. It's tough to remember that kids don't have a lot of experience with maps and visualizing spaces, and it takes a fair bit of time for them to grow that understanding from scratch. Adults who come to charting come with more of the basics built in. Takes a fair bit of on-water time for kids to make the connections. B

Yah, that was quite a thread hijack there, eh? Gettin' back to SueM. SueM, I think you have to recognize that our purpose in scouting is building character, and the Advancement Method only works for us if the kids we hold up to others for public recognition and awards exemplify what we're tryin' to teach. So as SM, you have to be true to that in considerin' signoffs for any awards. What you do sets the tone and expectations for the next round of boys. But it's fair to remember that you changed things out from under the current older boys, and teenagers are a very conservative lot. They want it to be the way it was, because that's what they grew up in and learned how to operate in. So a touch of understandin' and mercy is also OK. Only expect 'em to get half way to what you hope an Eagle will be in your troop in the years to come. Now, don't take this the wrong way, but it seems from your post like you've got a "bad dynamic" goin' on with that bunch of older boys. Do you have a "tough" male ASM or dad who can take the lead in dealing with this boy and his band of ruffians? A male role model they will honestly respect and look up to a bit, and who isn't caught in playing "mom" to the SPL in her heart? A good cop to your bad cop? I think you should find one. Beavah

Unfortunately Spock was right "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". Yeh know you're gettin' old when in a thread about youth behaviors someone mentions Spock and you don't think at all about the guy with pointy ears. This has gotten fairly serious and maybe can't be rescued at this point, but I'd like to have seen a step or two before the noose. Not SM conferences or talking, especially several days after the fact. Solid consequences delivered close to the time of the incident. "Joe, your PL said you threw something at someone, you miss out on the rest of the activities this afternoon and get to spend it (doing some hard labor) with the adults." "Joe, I'm sending you home with Mr. & Mrs. Jones right now. If you want to come on a campout again, I expect (written apology, some other task)". You've probably been through all this and just didn't mention it. I just think expulsion is a poor first consequence. Yah, like everyone has said, you have to make it work for all the kids, and you have to be realistic about your resources. If yeh recognize that he needs to be adult supervised all the time then that's what you have a responsibility to do. No excuses, eh? And if yeh can't do that, or aren't willing to spend your scouting time doing that, then it's best to be honest and say "we don't have the ability to support this boy with what he needs." Good luck with it. Prayers and best wishes. Nuthin' harder than having to say goodbye to a kid.... 'cept having one hurt. Beavah

The boys previously would attend these sessions at camp and then come back and not have anything "checked off". Yah, this is supposed to be a feature . In the National Camp School documents camps aren't supposed to sign off on T-2-1 requirements, because that's the province of the troop and the SM. New Scout programs are just supposed to be a resource to assist, not an activity to supplant each troop's "in-house" instruction and signoffs for rank requirements. I think that's the right way to look at it, but it's not communicated well. GWD, so much depends on the camp, eh? I think, though, that if your troop has the guys to do new scout stuff in-house, that's a much better way to go. So much about new boys is getting to know them, and more importantly them gettin' to know the troop, and getting comfortable in it. Workin' together with the troop's adults and older boys seems like too big a part of that to turf it to the camp staff. It's special fun helpin' 'em whack their first tree to pieces, start their first campfire and all that. Don't give it up!

Attending training, being trained, and performing within an area of responsibility are not always inter changeable concepts. Yah, Amen to that! So how do we help save Foxy from his monster? This is pretty tough without knowin' the players. I've never really seen TC Challenge work when there were already problems and personalities in play. It's meant to be used before that point, eh? Fox, as you get the CO to (hopefully gently) reconfigure the committee, add some "gravitas". Add some experienced outsiders who don't have boys currently in the program. Local alumni. The youth minister from the CO. A friendly old district Beavah. A businessman with some boardmanship experience. I think troop committees need ballast. Some good sorts who keep things on an even keel as waves of different parents come through. A few respected types who can articulate "the mission" and get people on the same page, or gently sideline 'em until they can read the music. And set some clear terms of office, so it's possible to make moves when you need to without hurtin' people's feelings. Any other ideas for the Fox?

In my bigger council/national persona, I would change the exec structure and evaluation process. Allow for more specialization of roles and place a much greater emphasis on service. I'd also really like to see our morass of paperwork cut down, conflicting information fixed, policy language properly corralled, and the whole thing indexed, made available electronically, with commentary and examples. It seems a fair number of people view the stuff as tablets from Mt. Sinai, so we have to pay more attention to our writing. I'd spin off and sell most of LFL. In my local positions, I would do something different with training. Not sure quite what, but it needs to become more performance-oriented and less seat-time based. It should parallel what we expect of kids - instruction, practice, feedback, and evaluation. Recruiting non-BSA expertise should be used more frequently when "internal" people really don't have the depth of experience to teach a topic. No "warm bodies!" Somewhere I'd like to see more CO's engage actively. The LDS and the Catholics seem to be "getting it" but the rest is really a mixed bag. I'm a proponent of our current membership policies, but if we had more active and involved/responsible CO's, I think we could eventually relax this to a CO decision. Beavah

Nah, that's the spot, CNY. BSA is fairly coy about insurance. A number of councils provide more detailed information, but typically this goes to CO's and not to registered leaders, so it's up to the CO to keep their volunteers informed. And of course, many larger CO's also provide coverage. Another option for you if you're doing shooting sports is to ask your council for an insurance certificate to present to whomever you're working with. Your council can also have another organization (local gun club, for example, or individual NRA instructor who is not BSA registered) listed as a named additional insured on the BSA policy, within certain coverage limits. They can provide you with documentation of this. Both are routine council services which are provided at no charge to help "open doors" to facilities and programs for units. Beavah