Beavah

Yah, so what do we all think of BSA summer camp, where boys with limited experience are hired as counselors and paid to teach skills to younger boys? And what do we feel about DE's, who are paid to provide services to adult leaders (and to kids in direct service units)? How about paying $ for training (or $$ for Woodbadge)? Is it nice to get or give something for free? Sure. It's downright neighborly, eh? But is it required? B

Yah, Ekmiranda. Good questions, eh? I think some CO's are "respectfully involved". 'Round here, the "big guy" chartering orgs - the Mormons, da Catholics, and da Methodists tend to understand the relationship, though individual parishes/stakes might miss the boat. These orgs all have internal documents on "Scouting as a Youth Ministry" that help, often with some organizational muscle invested in starting units and such. It's common to find other chartered organizations mostly detached from unit operations, unless a leader in the CO happens to be a scouting promoter. Public school PTO's tend to be da most detached, IMHO. To your specific questions: 1) They should help select and approve leaders, maintain enough contact to make sure you're not runnin' off da rails, and provide basic resources (meeting space). Ideally, they should be more involved, but there are tradeoffs; involvement goes both ways - the more a CO is involved in the Pack, the more the Pack needs to be actively involved in da mission and efforts of the CO. 2) Units can't really change CO's, but your adults and kids can move and start up a new unit at a new CO . This is somethin' yeh need to coordinate with your DE. 3) Nope, you're not wrong in askin', though it's worth considerin' whether "a scout pays his own way" applies here. But IMO it never hurts to ask. Yeh may be oversteppin' if you can't take "no" for an answer. You're askin' for a fair chunk of change. How "present" are you in the life of the CO? How well did you make your case that such a contribution will really advance their mission? Every NFP has lots to do and a small amount of money with which to do it. Givin' money to you means not givin' money to someone else in the organization. "No" is an OK answer, eh? Beavah

Sounds like your boys are planning a wonderful program, and deserve your support. Merit badges aren't really supposed to be offered as a "whole troop" exercise. Yah, dat happens sometimes, eh, when we're short on counselors and a bunch of kids all want to work on a badge together (or when an adult/advancement-driven program runs a bit amok ). So I wouldn't really worry about your troop not offerin' a whole-troop MB experience. Individual boys who want to do Campin' MB, or Hiking MB, or Cooking, or Cycling, or Climbin', or Whitewater, or any of the many other cool "scout skill"/outdoor badges can do it the real way - by findin' a counselor, and workin' on their own with a few buddies or a patrol. Might be a good way to get some patrol outings goin'. And nuthin' says a couple of guys workin' on a badge can't do campfire cookin' for their patrol on one of your regular outings, right? (fire bans aside). Dat's the way the MB program is designed to work. As long as your troop is providin' reasonable T-2-1 opportunities each year, the rest of it is up to the boys. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, this is an interestin' question, eh? What are the necessary traits for a successful SM? I agree with John. Virtually all of the successful troops I've seen have a SM with relatively strong "presence" and who demonstrates personal care for what goes on in the program - including having the courage to say "no" when that's appropriate. Of course, "no" is often disparaged by those on the receivin' end as a "my way or the highway" approach (just like da kids sometimes interpret "no" as being "mean"). That interpretation happens most often among people who've never served in a leadership role for a bunch of teenagers. Yah, but I see Lisa'bobs point, too. There are a fair number of adults in Scoutin' whose egos are too invested in the program. You can recognize 'em at BOR's because they're the ones who never really listen to the youth's responses they're so busy tellin' their own story or tryin' to get the kid to say it the way they would say it. But I think mostly the harsh ones are the inexperienced ones, who haven't learned how to balance things yet. Just like a lot of da kids' first attempts at leadership model the "drill sergeant", same with adults, eh? Some patience and understandin' is called for. What do the rest of you see as characteristics of the good scout leaders you know?

Yah, well... hmmm. One thing about forums, every now and then there's somethin' new! I do know a few troops that rent gear to other units. They charge for rental, and the money goes to equipment repair and replacement, with some small fraction also going into the troop's general fund. That seems OK to me; the troop is providing a real service, typically cheaper than what renting from a commercial outfitter would cost. So now, what if a troop that was rentin' their canoes also made a couple of canoe instructors available to a unit that needed help? That's a fairly big commitment, to take a full day or a weekend out to do instruction. Might even be necessary for the renting troop to fulfill Safety Afloat expectations. On the one hand, I agree that it just feels like on an individual basis, being Helpful means being helpful for free, whether it's loaning gear or people. On the other hand, if someone needed help every other weekend, with wear and tear on gear and people's time, that seems a bit much to ask for. Perhaps some compensation ain't so bad, eh? Especially if the compensation is goin' to support the kids' program. We district and council folks should really offer trainin' for free, eh? Bein' helpful and all. But instead we do charge for expenses, and often a bit extra. Sometimes we do that just so people have some skin in the game, so they actually show up. How is that different than a troop doin' it? Tough question, but I wouldn't be too quick to judge. Beavah

Yah, hard question, Gonz. Nuthin' but random ideas below. Take boys on trips to places without mom (especially to places where mom doesn't want to go). Distance is often the easiest. Give other boys more fun and special opportunities in return for sleeping outside (late night stories & smores after Billy's inside?). Recognize the kids who slept out with a special award at the end of the day, and again at the next COH or troop event. Make it obvious that Billy "misses out" on opportunities and recognition if he's doing the "mama's boy" thing. Ask mom why Billy is being punished by being made to sleep indoors. Alternately, ask mom if Billy needs a ride home because he is too sick to sleep out. There are other permutations to think of, eh? "Sally, does Billy have a bedwetting problem? We often find that boys who are a bit afraid to sleep outside have something like that holding them back, but we can work with them so it's perfectly OK and not embarrassin' at all." The point is an indirect way of showin' mom how her action is perceived by others, and how willin' you are to help. And yeh might find that there is somethin' real holding Billy back, which your promptin' brings to the surface. Beavah

If they would have asked, I think 600 Scouters could have cleaned the stands in less than an hour. Yah, this does seem like da rational way to go, eh? I expect that union work rules would have prevented that. And of course the omnipresent boogeyman of "liability." Amazin' how such stuff gets in the way sometimes. B P.S. Does anyone else have images of Eamonn croonin' like Bing Crosby now floatin' through their heads?

Yah, thanks ASM915! And thanks to OGE for bumpin' that old thread back up. Re-readin' it, this case does show that yes, organizations are responsible for the negligent acts of their volunteers/employees (so be nice to your CO's and your councils), and yes, the BSA liability insurance does cover us even when we're stupid and don't follow the rules. The big thing in that old thread that I think is most important is "What happens to these kids?". Bein' responsible for somethin' bad happening, whether you're a kid or an adult scouter, is a pretty traumatic experience. It wouldn't have been hard for a firefighter to have been badly hurt or killed in this blaze, but even without that, this is rough. It's good to call your SE right away, because the council can bring resources to help with that stuff. But it's also good to have "emergency" policies in place with your CO and unit. None of us ever wants to be in a bad situation, but when we are, it's nice to have some things in place that we can just turn to when we're reelin'. Beavah

Yah, I had to look back at other posts, too. foxy, it seems like you've just got a lot goin' on with leadership/adult behavioral issues in your unit. You're goin' to drive yourself nuts and possibly do damage if yeh get in a twitter over each and every problem. Identify the most serious issue, and address it. Take issues one at a time. Be content for slow, gradual improvement, some of which won't happen until a few people age out and move on. In that scheme of things, a kid's Court of Honor probably isn't the right hill to dig a trench, have a shootout, and die on, eh? Better to go along, nudge things where you can, and spend your effort on more important stuff. In a more general way, there seem to be two ways of handlin' ECOH's out there. One is that it's put together by the troop, the same as any other COH. Troop youth leaders plan and run the ceremony (with input from the boy and his family), and the SM advises and keeps an eye on things. It is the troop's ceremony, and the boy and his family are guests of honor. The second way of handlin' it is that the troop goes "hands off" on ECOH's, and turfs all of the planning to the parents of the Eagle. They select the venue, they plan their own ceremony and invite who they want, they provide all refreshments, etc. It is the family's ceremony, and the other boys and adult leaders who are invited are props. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Of da two, I prefer the first. It reflects more what's really happenin' - an organization is presenting a person with an award. Just like HS graduation, eh? The school runs the ceremony; the kids and families are guests of honor. If they want to have a party afterward for family and friends, that's theirs. Havin' the troop run the ceremony also keeps a handle on three things that I hate to see: 1) Something inappropriate at the ceremony (like not invitin' a scout that the boy didn't like, etc.), 2) Pushy parents runnin' roughshod over the boy's wishes, and 3) "Keepin' up with the Joneses" wedding-like ceremonies, where some parents spend lavishly but others can't afford that kind of Social Event. The latter I find particularly distasteful. Beavah

I'm willing to bet that the Eagle projects that you've seen that benefit servicemen overseas were projects done within the local community who most likely have soldiers or soldiers relatives living in the community. Often. I do know of at least one Eagle project that was related to Hurricane Katrina relief which actually involved travel to Mississippi. It was an outstanding project, where the scout showed incredible leadership, and worked closely with adults from the CO and youth from his troop and several other groups. I vaguely recall hearin' of one out-of-country project in another council. If my ancient memory serves, the boy had been in Mexico the previous year with his Venture Patrol, and had befriended several people there, with the scouts also participating in a local service project as part of his patrol. He kept in touch, and planned his Eagle project as a combination fund-raising and work project for some other big need. Both of these seem like worthy projects to me. Not sure why we'd want to stand in their way. Beavah

PR department in the front office sets up a fun scout event on a Friday evening. League game scheduler in the back office sets up a make-up game or somesuch on what looks like a free Saturday morning, not really knowing what the Friday night entailed. Nobody catches the cleaning-time problem until Friday night. Stuff happens even when good people are doing their best. Happens plenty in scout troops, cub packs, and venturing crews. Be kind, courteous, and understanding. I bet they'll do what they can to make good, and in the process you'll leave a good impression of Scouting in their minds. Beavah

Yah, I think FScouter has the right of it here. The boy should be able to pursue his vision and his own lights as he formulates an Eagle Project Proposal. It's his project, and I wouldn't say "no" to a project that helps others around the world. We've had a bunch of projects that helped servicemen overseas who weren't part of our "local community". When a lad asks for support, each person and group chooses whether and how they're able to help. A troop can say yes or no, a business can say yes or no, a CO can say yes or no. How each of us responds when asked depends on our mission and our way of thinkin', eh? All that is part of the learning that comes with doin' an Eagle project - how you stitch together enough support to make it fly, or how you modify if yeh can't get that support. There's nothing here that's policy, except what is local policy of the CO. I've never seen a district committee bat an eye over small-scale direct monetary donations either; fact is, I reckon at least a third of the proposals that get approved have 'em. Just don't go solicitin' a big local business for a large donation in a way that interferes with FOS, and everybody's goin' to be fine with things (if you are). Beavah

Yah, these situations are a challenge for everyone, eh? It's hard to know what to do, and there's always a desire to give "the benefit of the doubt" and to be reluctant to pass along bad news. This is not a case of child abuse. It would not fall under the mandatory reporting statutes in most states. "Child abuse" is limited to abuse by caregivers on dependent children. If someone contacted child services about such an incident, they would call law enforcement on the sexual battery report, but they don't really have any authority beyond that, and it would be up to the parents of the boy who was molested to press charges, eh? Would it have been better to call the police and possibly have the boy arrested? Maybe, then there would have been a record that might have triggered some other support. But very hard with the victim's parents not wishing it. So Eamonn and the SE did all that they reasonably could in the murky world these things create. They protected their kids, and pushed for the lad to receive the help he needed. They chose not to report the crime at the request of the parents of the victim. The SE in particular is really a bystander in these things; units are the responsibility of the CO. If it looks like the unit is proceeding with handling it, the SE is quite correct in leaving it to them. Then we get into what might have been possible "above and beyond the call". Calling children's services for neglect if the parents of the Lad don't actually get the boy help? Perhaps, but how do we as scout leaders know and follow up? Quietly tipping off school officials looks good in 20-20 hindsight, but most of us don't think of schools as very amenable to molestations, forgetting about things like field trips with the band. Then do we also tip off parents of other boys in the neighborhood? It's good to reflect. Eamonn should get with some folks and debrief. These things create a lot of emotions and need to be talked out and trouble-shot. But from where I sit, there ain't much to be beatin' himself up over. Beavah

Yah, I couldn't find da original threads this was in. This settled at exactly the dollar amount I expected. Beavah ----- Will UT Boy Scouts Fined $6.5 Million For Forest Fire SALT LAKE CITY Federal prosecutors have reached a $6.5 million settlement with the local chapter of the Boy Scouts over a June 2002 wildfire that burned 14,200 acres in the Uinta Mountains. Insurance policies held by the Great Salt Lake Council through the national office of the Boy Scouts of America will pay the settlement, council spokesman Kay Godfrey said. Federal prosecutors had sought more than $13.4 million from the Scouts to cover the costs of the fire, which was started by 17 Scouts ages 12 to 14 who were working on a wilderness survival badge at Camp Tomahawk. The case was headed for trial in February, but was delayed when settlement negotiations began, said Melodie Rydalch, spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney for Utah. We thought that this was a fair and just settlement, Rydalch said. Generally a settlement is not everything that everybody wants, its a compromise that brings resolution. Godfrey declined further comment and said local council leaders planned to a formal response Wednesday. A settlement agreement in a separate lawsuit with the state of Utah, the national Boy Scouts organization agreed to pay $330,000 and plant 9,000 seedlings. No adults were present at the time the fire was started, although two 15-year-old counselors were in the group of Scouts. In depositions, Scouts said they extinguished the fire with water, urine and dirt and then slept next to the site. A judge ruled, however, that no one conducted a cold-out test, in which someone can safely run a hand through the coals and ashes that ensures a fire is fully extinguished. An order dismissing the case has not been signed by U.S. District Judge Tena Campbell.

Yah, BA, nobody's tellin' yeh what to believe, eh? Everyone's free to believe what they want. You're welcome to believe every PR piece that a special interest lobby puts out. Just understand it for what it is, eh? And don't tell the kids it's objective science. The percent thing was just a way of sayin' that we have to look at each argument or issue, not just buy into what our political tribe is sayin' because it's our tribe. But that's just what I believe, eh? I think a lot of honor has to do with when people have the courage to stand up and admit they're wrong, or to stand up and tell their friends that they're wrong. It's easy, and requires little honor, to shout that our opponents are wrong because we don't want to believe them. As for your list, I don't know any of the lads or lasses personally. As a group, they look to be almost all retired folks not currently doing research. About half look to be commenting outside of their fields of research or expertise. Some quick searching gives us: Dr. William Gray, Professor of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University Actually an emeritus (retired) professor, Dr. Gray's area of expertise is seasonal hurricane prediction in the Atlantic basin. He has no published work in climatology or global climate change. He apparently does maintain that human-caused warming has occurred, but doesn't believe the magnitude is as large. Richard Lindzen, MIT meteorology professor and member of the National Academy of Sciences A real guy, and a participant on past IPCC boards. A quick read of his objections finds that they are well-reasoned qualification of the limits of current data. Like either of us, he objects to the policy politization/polarization on the subject, not to the current scientific work being done. Willie Soon, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics A stellar astrophysicist whose work looks at solar energy variations over time, using underlying historical data which is even sketchier than the atmospherics folks doin' CO2 levels research. A natural advocate for his own work, which is interesting stuff. Collaborates with Baliunas (below), so they're the same team. When dealin' with sketchy data, it really helps to have independent verification in science, even when the team's work is interestin'. Baliunas has spent a lot of time in policy areas outside of research, and in that context has a record of some more careless errors in commenting outside of her field. I'll let others do their own homework on the rest, eh? Scientific communities are like any human communities, as far as I know. There's bright folks, and more limited folks, arrogant folks who overstate things and comment outside their expertise, and some nuts. Listin' a half dozen or a dozen names off an advocacy website doesn't give us any real information on their arguments, their expertise, or their character. I know some economists who are flamin' socialists. That doesn't mean that the consensus, mainstream view in economics is that capital markets are BS. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

The Ship has paid its fees but at the last roundtable our new DE handed me a charter agreement and asked me to get it signed by my CO. He's new to Scouting and no idea what he should be doing. So are we considered "chartered" or not? My guess is when yeh did rechartering this year, you forgot to do the charter agreement, and they didn't catch it at the time. Or you did it and they lost it. For all practical purposes, you are chartered (meaning that your kids can earn awards, you can go to training and RT, insurance covers you, etc.). But yeh should still get the form in. Beavah

Yah, no problem with your proposed activity, WDL. Just da usual - make sure you're comfortable with the boys' maturity level for the type of activity, make sure it's "challenge by choice" and that there's a graceful way for boys who are scared to "opt out" with everyone's support, and make sure the commercial provider is properly trained and equipped to deal with boys their age and size. The big concern is psychological maturity, eh? Project COPE is a BSA-specific program, it's not a generic name for ropes course stuff. So there's specific project COPE rules that don't apply to an outside commercial outfitter providing a ropes course opportunity. (Those other providers have similar internal rules and insurance restrictions, too, of course, but they also differ because they have a more professional, less volunteer staff). Have fun. Beavah

Yah, exactly EagleDad and BrentAllen. It isn't about Al Gore, or some dingbat like Tim Ball on the other side who is employed by a neo-conservative lobbying firm. Nobody should believe either of 'em. I certainly wouldn't encourage kids to take either at face value. So who should we believe, eh? I suggest the scientists who actually do this work professionally, with relatively neutral funding sources, who don't have a political axe to grind and who are respected by their colleagues. And those folks are pretty clear that human-driven global warming is a real deal, and a part of the current climate change. Problem is real, say the real folks. The fake folks don't really matter, 'cept as another example of polarized, chest-thumpin' tribalism in politics. Just so happens that in this case, Al Gore might be 80% right, once yeh look past the spin. Tim Ball has it 85% wrong, by the same measure. Not likin' the politics of the messengers doesn't mean we shouldn't stay mentally awake about da issues, eh? I remember when all da neo-con Republican types were poo-pooing the ozone depletion hole and the risk of CFC's, and cried about job losses and economic doom. Then someone came up with a CFC replacement, and that meant new business and a healthy dollop of corporate welfare. All of a sudden da neo-cons joined the scientific consensus when it meant money in their pocket, eh? Plenty of foolishness to go around, even in the political persuasion I tend to agree with. Beavah

Yah, I'm with scoutldr on this. Yeh first need to honestly look at your communication, and whether their involvement in the choice to do this fund-raiser was genuine, or whether the adults actually "sold the kids' time" without really consulting them. If it was honestly the kids' show/commitment, then... They need to feel the consequences for this choice. Do yeh have a meeting this week? Do a call-around, make sure almost everyone is there. Then I would use it to share your disappointment and your honest, blunt feelings on the matter. I'd talk about how much it hurt relationships and the potential future of the Ship. Then I'd let them know that the regatta trip is canceled, and the future of the program depends on them "making this right". Let them discuss how to do that and come up with a plan. Formal apology to the CO, perhaps service work for the CO instead of going to the regatta, promise to actually show up and do the next dinner for free, etc. These things are tough, eh? But they're our most important teaching moments. Don't let it pass you by. Beavah

Depends on the stae, in NY a lot of charter schools are private. nldscout, I had to go check to make sure, eh? I'm afraid mtm is right for NY, eh? Charter Schools in New York are very definitely public schools, chartered by your State Board, the SUNY Regents, or local districts, and fully funded by public $. Like any public district, a charter school can contract with a private group for educational and management services (like curriculum & instruction, or food service or bus service), but that doesn't make them a private school. That makes them a public school that subcontracts for some (or all) functions. They're still a creature of the state, and bound by constitutional and statutory law. Beavah

By Dr. Tim Ball and Tom Harris http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming051407.htm Yah, this is what is called a "Political Advocacy" or "Lobbying Piece" that has nothin' to do with science, eh? Yeh can tell this because both authors are currently employed by the same company, which exists only as a public policy advocacy firm (i.e. "lobbying organization"), funded by certain special interests. And, as is often the case in such things, the lead author may have "overstated" his academic credentials. Articles like this are nothin' more than policy "spin" by people who stand to benefit personally or professionally from a particular public policy position. Confusin' it with real science is far from using reason based on evidence. Fact is, it's just plain silly. Beavah

How do you two handle the 18 y/o's that want to stay in your respective troops? Do you just assign them as ASM's? Do you place them under the wing of an experienced ASM for a certain time period? Yah, I'm with EagleDad and jblake, eh? A boy who turns 18 has been with the troop a lot of years. Everybody knows him really well - way better than we know new parents or adult-entry ASMs. I think yeh register 'em as ASMs, and then use them for what they're good at and ready for. Same as any ASM. Yeh wouldn't use a 300 lb. older ASM as high adventure backpack trip co-leader, and yeh wouldn't use a young 18-year-old ASM to deal with a difficult parent. But vice versa might work fine. Beavah

Yah, there's the PTC Climbing Director course, the NCS course, or he can go for training to your council climbing director. Alternately, a college or university program. Now, that having been said, what are yeh plannin' on doin', exactly? And what is the gent's real level of prior experience climbing and teachin' kids? IMO, none of the BSA training even comes close to bein' adequate if the person starts out as a relatively inexperienced climber or teacher of youth. Beavah

Yah, jblake describes da best way to go about recruitin' and selection. Get to know people as informal helpers first, over a period of time. Then talk to the other adult leaders and the youth leaders about what they've seen, who they're comfortable with, and invite the strong ones. Includin' youth is important, because they see adults interact with them when other adults aren't watchin'. When yeh invite them, tell them what training you expect them to take right away, and get 'em moving on that. Boys, SM/ASMs, parents, Committee, CO should all be on board. CO of course has the "final call" and ability to act unilaterally if it feels necessary. Hopefully if you do that right, then you never have to deal with the other. It's really tough when a scouter has a boy in the troop to "fire" him. Resign yourself to losing the boy too. Easiest is to find another position for him away from the boys. Don't put him somewhere that won't work, of course, but if you can move him "out of the way" that's easier than moving him out. "George, we've really appreciated your help on campouts, but our big need right now is for you to use that knowledge to take over our Advancement paperwork." If you're really in a "this guy's gotta go" deal (typically because of some really poor behaviors to youth or other adults), then you get the CC, COR, UC, DE, and SM on the same page. Select at least 2 but no more than three of them to meet with the guy privately, at a place you control (either a public place like a restaurant or somewhere else where you can easily "end the meeting" or "call the cops"). Make sure one of the guys who meets with him is comfortable being "the heavy". Make sure everyone is going to be calm and professional. Lay it out just as Oak Tree suggests. Follow up in writing, with copies to the key 5. If the ASM does have a boy in the program, yeh need to set up some pretty strict ground-rules about his participation as a parent. Make sure you put those in writin' too. Probably, the boy will just be pulled out, but if not, yeh need to protect the space for him and the other boys. Think ahead, too, about getting things like keys and troop gear back (or the need to re-key quickly). Finally, be sure you share enough with the DE so that a determination can be made about whether the man should remain registered with the BSA (to potentially serve as a leader in another unit). Yah, good luck with it. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

My most immediate problem is actually how to deal with the First Class requirement that the boys go out and invite someone in. If we cap our membership, at least temporarily, what could we tell the boys to do about that requirement? Yah, this one's a bit of a nuisance. I'd make it a more general requirement. * Give a talk to a community group, school class, or set of friends about what you've done in scouting and why it's cool; or * Write a letter to the editor, school newspaper article, or paper for school on your scouting adventures; or * Become "pen pals" with a webelo in our feeder pack, and correspond several times, telling him about what you're doing in Scouting and why it's fun. Finish by being the webelos "buddy" at his first troop activity. * Talk to your DE, and figure out where the district is trying to start a new unit. Use your boys to recruit for that new unit. It's always tough to get going without kids talkin' to kids. * Do a service or promotional activity in the general community wearing your scout uniform. In short, anything that involves the lad promoting scouting in some way to the broader community. Might be to parents, might be to community leaders, might be to other kids, might be to folks who are potential donors. That seems to be in da spirit of the requirement, without the awkwardness of inviting another boy to visit a program that has no space for him. Beavah