Beavah

Hi pmarius. Welcome to the forums. I think all scouters who have been around a long time have run into some version of the parent you're talking about. Yeh don't mention what your position is in the troop, though. I think this is your problem if you are Scoutmaster, Unit Commissioner, Committee Chair, or Chartered Org. Rep., or perhaps if you are an "elder statesman" on the Troop Committee. Otherwise, I think yeh have to leave it to those folks, and just express your support for their actions in hard cases like this one. If yeh are one of those "key people", here's the way I think about it. Occasionally, the person just needs a job. Give 'em something that they're responsible for, so they get out of the way of other people, they feel useful, and they begin to appreciate how hard it is. I find this works only about 20% of the time. After that, I think the job is to protect the program for all da boys and their parents. A parent who is disruptive and causes your "regular" volunteers to lose heart hurts all the boys in your program. What do you do with an adult who is hurting the boys in your program, directly or indirectly? The answer should be obvious. You ask 'em to leave. Now, I'm all for gettin' two senior adults to sit with them privately and explain why their behavior is unacceptable and give 'em one chance to do better. But push comes to shove, you have to protect the program for all the boys. Even if that means you exclude a parent from outings and meetings. Even if that means you lose a boy when the parent quits. Beavah

Yah, I think we're being a bit hard on scotteng, eh? Let's say MarkS had forgotten about the National Tour Permit until the Friday before the trip, and there's just no way to get it done. I don't think anybody would argue that the appropriate thing to do in such a case is cancel summer camp for all the boys because of a paperwork glitch. We'd all go anyway, paperwork or no. Da hard part about the Oath and Law is that sometimes it requires us to balance competing "goods", or to triage multiple "bads". When dealing with a late tour permit at regional, are we Obedient (disallow any after the one month lead requirement) or Helpful? I tend to view all the 12 as equally weighted elements of character, eh? So no one point trumps the others. To my mind, it's an excellent example to the kids if Scouters show by example, and explain, the different ways they think about balancing points of the Oath and Law. Beavah

Yah, MarkS. These things happen, eh? Da folks at Regional see it all the time. They'll be friendly and helpful, and give you only a mild chiding for which you should act appropriately sheepish. Check with your DE or council person who handles tour permits. Be apologetic. They'll help you out, no problem. All that's really needed is a call to Regional to have 'em pull it out of the bottom of the pile. Faxing back is also no problem. As for your other questions, it's not necessary to be perfectly accurate about your numbers count when you submit a tour permit. I doubt half of 'em have exactly the same number as the people that go. Everyone understands there will be changes. Same with cars. A common thing to do around here is just to get all the driving information for a whole troop and staple it on, sayin' "it will be some combination of the following". The point is just to show you're doin' your due diligence in terms of makin' sure people are licensed and have insurance, that you have enough seatbelts, etc. Beavah

Yah, 'tis a sad thing. I ustah be a council commish. I think the hardest thing is that volunteers are hard to come by, and good ones are usually better placed as unit leaders and assistant unit leaders, where their impact on the kids can be better. What's left are retired SM's mostly, but they can be the "war story" bunch. Plus, it's often hard for an ex-SM to switch to a commish. He's used to bein' in charge, eh? And he's usually only got experience with his own troop's way of doin' things; he doesn't really have a "repertoire" of experience to help different units. Dat's a challenge for other district positions, too. And then Cub leaders make poor troop UC's and vice versa, IMO, which is another challenge. Me, I just triaged things. Units that were doing OK got a yearly visit from a DC; units that weren't got assigned to a small service team of 3 folks to help. That way we had "backup" and a sense of teamwork, rather than expectin' a UC to play lone ranger. Worked OK, but not great; hardest was formin' and keepin' good 3-person service teams. Since then, I reckon things have gotten even sparser in many councils. But we did have a few gems, who did the job well. Yah, no question about it overall, though. In most places the district/council falls down on providin' its end of the Charter Agreement in terms of unit support, and commissioner corps where it exists at all is a kinda odd Old Boys group. Beavah

Yah, Lisa'bob, thanks. My memory of da Peregrine is that it was one of the last in TNF line not to have factory-taped seams on the rainfly... so my "seal the seams" comment probably still stands. You should at least look at that, it's the most likely culprit. Da second thing with da Peregrine like many TNF tents is that the spot in the middle of the roof, where the poles form a triangle, can collect water in a real downpour, and then funnel it into the seams and then into the tent. So it's important when you set it up to: 1) make sure the fly is tight. It will loosen when wet. 2) make sure the seams lie outside/below the triangle made by the poles in the center. To do this, you might need to use the little accessory pole ties (velcro strips) on the fly, if the Peregrine has them. What you have to make sure of is the seam being away from anywhere the water can pool in that center area. Takes some fiddlin'. Once water comes in the seams, it'll run along the inside of the fly until it finds a spot to drip from, so it's hard to tell where things are really comin' from. On a nice day, set your tent up in the backyard, and get one of those old-time sprinklers that we used to jump through when we were kids. Sit in your tent as the sprinkler runs back and forth, and see if you can ID the leak points. Good luck with it. B

Yah, it's a call to the CC, COR, and a conversation with your ASMs. Tell all the people who need to be involved with the transition. Don't tell the kids/parents right away, though, give folks some time to get a transition plan in place first. Give plenty of lead time. Set a specific date for your retirement, at least 3 months out (preferably 6). Having a concrete date focuses everyone's mind; having enough notice ensures enough time to manage the transition. Consciously "fade" as you approach retirement, so the vacuum is gradual and gives others time to fill in. In particular, don't take a role in long-term program planning (like an annual planning meeting with the boys); it's very hard for any successor to step in to "your" plan. Miss some meetings, miss some outings. After you retire, stay away from meetings and campouts for a while. It's just too natural for everyone, youth and adults, to keep relyin' on you as "the SM" if you're there. Instead, plan to take your successor to lunch/coffee/etc. at least once a month in a friendly sort of way. Give him a chance to ask questions. Offer ideas. Express how glad you are he took over to keep things goin'; share how hard it was for you at the beginning. Accept gifts, a retirement party, etc. with grace and good cheer. And most important, remember when you're at District that all the good work of Scouting happens at the unit level. Make sure your role is always one of respectful, cheerful, service. Thanks for the time and treasure you've given to America's future. Beavah

Yah, here's another article for them that's interested: http://www.newwest.net/index.php/main/article/national_outdoor_leadership_school/ It'd be interestin' to try a study to figure out of the reported cases of loose bowels, what percent was microbial, what percent was soap residue, and what percent was the change in foodstuffs and activity level from what the person was used to. I gotta figure that most of it is too short in duration to be microbial, and most of da microbial illness is water related. Havin' kids use and clean their own dishes can help a lot in avoidin' cross-contamination. Boiled hot water is a staple for cleaning and should be used liberally. Beyond that, there's no need for soaps and chemicals if you've got good camp kitchen habits. Too hard to rinse, and just a little bit of soap residue wreaks havoc on your gastro-intestinal critters. Better to leave that stuff at home and keep our wilderness free of such contaminants. LNT and all. 30+ years in the field for me on 5 continents, all with kids in Scoutin' and instructional programs, and never a problem leavin' such stuff out of dishwashin'. Da "three bucket" method comes from food service regulations in most states, eh? That's why some outfitters get forced into usin' it. It's good science for in-town restaurants and such. Problem is, it relies on havin' a plentiful clean water source to start, and assumes yeh have to cross-contaminate all the dishes in the cleanin' process. Neither are true out campin'. It can take a fairly long contact time before that there chlorine kills all the critters in the bucket of water you're usin', especially if you've got a mess of dishes with new critters you're droppin' in for a minute each. Likely as not, you're riskin' more contamination that way. Beavah

Troop is 4 or 5 years old and until NOW and I mean NOW, the troop has not used blue cards. Blue Cards!!!! Gonz, man, it seems like yer gettin' all worked up over some small stuff here. I gotta believe there's somethin' else goin' on that you're not telling us. For da record, though, there's no requirement anywhere to use blue cards. They're just an administrative aid. I know several scout camps that don't use 'em, and substitute their own multi-part form instead. I know a bunch of troops that keep track of things in other ways. Printin' out forms from places like meritbadge.com seems pretty popular. All dat matters most places is that someone from the unit submits an advancement report (paper or on-line). Da rest is honor system on the part of the responsible adults, just like rank advancement. Beavah

Yah, ScoutNut's right, eh? It would help to know your brand of tent, and a bit more about the conditions. From your description, though, here's my guess. The nylon in a rain fly is treated with a waterproof coating. However, the nylon consists of several sheets that are sewn together. In order to sew pieces together, you make a seam, and the needle makes little holes that the thread passes through. Those holes can let water drip in, seeping along the thread. In a good rain, you'll get quite a lot of drippage, eh? Newer higher-end tents have "factory taped seams", which you can recognize as a shiny plastic tape running along the seam on the bottom of the rain fly. Older or "department store" tents require that you hand-seal the seams with "goop" to plug up all the holes. I strongly recommend SeamGrip over the other products. This should take care of most of your problem, eh? Even after that, though, you have to take some care in tent setup to get the fly tight and generally position the seams on the "down" side of poles on some tents. What you don't want is any spot where water can pool over a seam. Da other area that often gets some leakage is tent floors. The waterproof coating is applied to the inside of the tent floor, so over time it can be scuffed up by traffic, dirt in the tent, etc. As that wears, water can seep through, particularly water under pressure (like you'll get a wet spot under your pad, where your weight was pressin' down). So yeh have to be a good sort and keep your boots and stuff outside, and be gentle on the inside of your tent floor to protect da coating. IMO, this is best solved by usin' a light ground cloth inside da tent - no chance of water poolin' on the ground cloth, and it will protect your tent floor waterproofin' from further damage. Yeh can try re-coatin' the inside of the tent floor, but I've never found this satisfactory. The after-factory coatings all leave the floor a bit sticky, which is really a pain and sometimes does more damage. Last trick is to understand that when it rains, it's humid. The added moisture from your breath/body in the tent only makes it worse. Rain is cold, and cold rain hittin' a rainfly will chill it. This causes moisture inside the tent to condense on the rainfly, just like it does on the outside of a glass of cold lemonade. Your fly is not leaking, even though the inside is wet, and over time it may drip a bit. Da cure is to work extra hard at maintaining good ventilation in a rainshower, includin' being sure you stake out your fly as much as possible so that air can circulate underneath. Keepin' dry in a tent in a true downpour takes some practice and a lot of little tricks, some that are tent-specific. Keep practicin'! Beavah

I've seen this in a few units. It's much more common in troops that do more backpacking, or Venture patrols that have done a long backpack like Philmont. They take the backpacking techniques and make them part of the regular campout routine. It is very painless and efficient, provided you do some good coaching/checking on the young guys to make sure they actually do it. But that's the same if the young guys are on the duty roster, eh? If your scouts want to try it, I don't see any reason why you'd want to veto it as an adult. Fact is, it seems like more of a patrol method (everyone workin' together) than assigning a "chore" to a couple of guys. Beavah

Yah, it's always interestin' to me the tension between LNT ethic and those lookin' for industrial-kitchen-type sanitation methods for disease prevention. I think most of the time, folks can do just fine without bringin' along the chemicals, a ton of dish soap, and a bunch of buckets. The notion that such a system is appropriate for the AT or any other long backpack is simply laughable. Beavah

It seems safe to say then that there is a good chance the same Scoutmaster might have other personal opinions about Scouting that result in weakly implementing other parts of the Scouting program. Yah, it might seem "safe to say" in a theoretical sort of way. I'm not meanin' to start an argument, F, but that's just not my experience, after a whole lot of years helpin' lots of units. I've seen lots of units that are great at uniformin' and really poor at youth leadership and advancement. I've seen plenty of un-uniformed units that are gangbuster outdoorsmen and very true to Scouting values. Close as I can tell, every unit has some Methods that they use well, and some that they don't place as much emphasis on. Just the way it is. And it's not just a function of da SM or adult leadership. A lot of times it's even more a function of the boys and families that choose that particular unit. Some want spiffy uniformin', some don't; some want high-adventure outdoors, some are content car campin'; some are into rapid advancement, some do more mentoring. The differences in character are often as much of a boon as they are a disadvantage, because they make Scoutin' a happy home for a greater variety of kids and families. We should all be thoughtful about how we use each method, to make it work for the families and kids, but be careful about judgin' other leaders and units if their emphasis is different. There really aren't very many truly poor units out there, who are ignoring all the methods. They don't last long enough even to mount a district "rescue" operation anyway, so they aren't worth frettin' over. Da rest are good folks who are mostly tryin' as best they can. Beavah

New adults to scouting have little clue to what scouting is about, and they need to have 'veterans' of scouting to help them along the way. Yah, I like Redfeather's comment, eh? We often recommend training, but BSA one-shot training is pretty short and pretty cursory. There are a few who have personalities that compel them to go read everything and try everything, but they're rare birds. So I'm curious. For those of you who are good at it (Commishes, SM's, MC's, etc.), what do you do to "indoctrinate" adults in the Scouting Way? What have you found to be really successful at helping parents, new ASMs, or new SMs to develop their understanding and skills? What have you found doesn't work well? Yah, and how 'bout for helping people stay "current" over time? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

If nearly an entire Troop has gone south on the uniform, then what else aren't they doing? Yah, I dunno. I like to see uniformed troops, but in my experience uniforming is fairly independent of da rest of da program. In fact, a lot of times the best-uniformed troops are that way because they're pretty much adult-run, "troop-method" units. So while uniformin' may be worth pursuing, especially when we're talkin' about not being sloppy and showing some respect, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that weaker uniforming implies weaker scouting in other areas. Beavah

Yah, Lisa'bob, what you describe I've come to see as very common in lots of older social/service clubs. The organization had a heyday. They did a lot durin' the heyday. They got a bit cliquish, or maybe let recruitment languish because they were doin' too much other stuff. Over time, their membership dropped. The old guard stayed around as friends and keeps things runnin', bein' loyal to each other and the organization. But now it's really hard to get new members, because younger folks just see an old clique that's hard to break into and hangs around in smoky pubs, eh? Deep down, those members would like to see their organization vibrant, with young folks around again. They just don't know how to make it happen. And they're a bit scared and might even be slightly resentful because it will be different; they won't be in control, etc. Those two sentiments struggle in all these old organizations. I know, eh? I'm part of a couple . Nah, I don't think it's an obligation for you or any other scouter to join the CO. But it just might be an opportunity. Bring in a few people. Bring in a few new ideas without steppin' on their "tried-and-true". Let 'em see kids around again, and take delight in rememberin' the youth they promised to serve. Yeh might find that you're a great resource for each other. Takes time, fer sure, and most scouters don't have that much to spare . But if yeh think of it as a kind of ongoing unit service project that both the adults and kids engage in, yeh might be surprised by da rewards. Beavah and a real old Beavah, too

In da previous thread, Believin' writes: I feel your pain. I was just speaking to our DE about this recently. I am a Webelos II Leader. My boys are bored with the Cub Stuff. I want to plan more exciting things, but always seem to find my hands tied by the Guide to Safe Scouting for Cubs.... A lot of my parents have gotten together on their own and done things as well. They all went canoeing once. We also just happen to have a guy in our Pack that goes Caving. I confess I've got mixed feelins about some of this, eh? Guidelines are guidelines, but there's reasons for 'em, so departing must be done with careful thought. I've generally found most webelos really want to do older boy stuff - climbing, rappelling, caving, whitewater, you name it. They see themselves as the Conquering Adventurers. Problem is, they're mostly not read for that stuff yet. Adventures are scary. They're uncomfortable. It rains and gets muddy. You get scared and cold. Their comic-book vision of adventure ain't the way it is, and generally they're not physically or emotionally ready for that stuff. Half the time, I think the stuff is pushed by da competitive parent crowd, that wants to talk about their kid rock-climbin' at their next social club meetin'. So we can do two things. We can hype up and let 'em experience the real adventures that work for the 4th-5th grade crowd. First steps of short, easy backpackin. Hikes down rivers. Mud with a shower to clean off in. Chasin' tree frogs. Havin' fires. Free-play in the woods, where you get to explore and "get lost" and have acorn fights. Or we can create amusement-park style "guided tours" where we pretend they're doing rock climbin' or cavin' or whatever, but we control the environment so tightly that it's really not their adventure, it's a "ride" we created. Overall, I'm in favor of the first one myself. I think it's healthier for the kids. The second one introduces 'em to stuff, sure, but without the real adventure and choice and judgment that they'll need to continue with the activity. So if they take that experience and go out and try to do it on their own, it's dangerous, or when they get to doin' it "for real" in Boy Scouting or Venturing it's boring and uncomfortable. They want the ride, not the adventure. I think a little bit of boatin' and light packing is an OK thing for webelos, but I'd stay away from most of the other stuff. Wild cavin' in particular seems out of whack. A bit dangerous for the kids, but really rough on da cave. Caves are fragile environments that really can't take inexperienced kid traffic; just not bein' good citizens on our part to take 'em there. Yah, what do da rest of yeh think?

If a Eagle Candidate wants to do a fundraiser he MUST submit a fundraiser to his local Council first, for their approval. Yah, well, sort of. I think yeh may have misinterpreted the advice you were gettin'. The way most councils work, the Eagle Project approval process is the approval for any fundraisers that are part of da project. Unit money-earning applications are for units, eh, not for Eagle projects. The thing to remember is that generally fundraisin' associated with an Eagle project is done on behalf of the organization benefiting from the project. So the BSA really has no say in how, for example, the local Hospice fundraises to support a project an Eagle candidate is doin'. There are numerous details that have to be worked out. Who is doing this? You the adult, or the Eagle Candidate? The Eagle candidate, of course. Why would the adult be doin' it? As a last note ALL of the monies raised in the fundraiser must be used for the project. ANY monies left over must be donated to a Non Profit Organization. NOT the Troop. Nah, this isn't quite right, eh? The monies should be used as directed by the donors/contributors. In most cases, that means an Eagle candidate should give any surplus to the organization for whom he was doin' the work. But in some cases he may give the money back to the contributors, or may, at their direction, give it to the troop. The point is just to have an honest plan. When I participate in project approvals with fundraisin', I like to see a plan for how money will be accounted for and held, along with the project budget. That seems reasonable and sufficient. If larger amounts are involved, workin' with the CO or beneficiary on tax-deductibility of donations seems reasonable. Beavah

OGE's limerick allusions are obscure To his knowledge of comics I defer The Man was real Super He was a real Trooper And Helpful to all that's for sure!

Yah, emb021 illustrates how a lot of da BSA documents get generated, in a relatively haphazard fashion. So the OA website has the FAQ as described. However, when you look it up in the Insignia Guide, OA pocket flaps are shown only for Boy Scout Program identification on the uniform, not for Venturing program. So that somewhat-more-primary source suggests it's not an OK thing. In da end, though, we should consider principles. Order of the Arrow is a Boy Scout program, not a Venturing program. More than half of our Venturers wouldn't be eligible for it. A uniform is supposed to be uniform, it's supposed to reduce differences between members and make them part of the same team, which doesn't happen if people wear all kinds of non-program doodads that their peers can never earn. I'm not fond of uniform policin', and I wouldn't raise a fuss over OA flaps on green. But if asked, I'd suggest it's a bit odd and a little disrespectful to one's crew-mates, and I'd have no problem with a crew that discounted such stuff in a uniform inspection. Certainly I think adults should leave 'em off as a good example to the crew members. Beavah

Everything else that I as Cub Master have acquired has been purchased with pack funds that the boys have raised through fund raising. Or things that parents have donated. Yah, but those funds were raised for da pack, eh? And those donations were made to the pack. And in all likelihood, pack=CO. Especially if any tax deductions were involved. The pack isn't a separate legal entity, after all. Your ability to exist as a pack came from the CO. That's worth somethin', eh? And that same CO is responsible liability-wise for your actions. That means something, too. They're not really giving you nothing. Now, should the partnership be stronger? Fer sure. That takes a lot of time and educatin' to develop. Even then, it's fairly unusual for a CO to spring for Big $$ for training or travel costs. B

A new Theme for our rhyme we sure need So hark, one and all, and pay heed For each limerick you write A Point of our Law you must cite Such that good humor and knowledge you feed So put hand to your pen and create Rhyme with no reason we should debate Tell one and aw' Of a Point of the Law And how passion for Scouting 'tis Great!

A new Theme for our rhyme we sure need So hark, one and all, and pay heed For each limerick you write A Point of our Law you must cite Such that good humor and knowledge you feed But the server here slow, it is said Those who wait too long oft' fall into bed So to improve the speed, Once again you must heed, The Scout Law Limericks shall become a new Thread!

Lisa'bob brings up an interestin' thought: I wouldn't choose a 22 year old anybody to be an SM - not enough life experience. I'm curious what others think. Do your units have additional age restrictions (even if they're "informal") on the adult leadership positions? Seems to be a trend these days in the U.S., as our aging population increasingly distrusts the young. I've never seen a problem with a young adult SM. That's the norm in Scouting in the rest of the world, eh? Rovers and adult leaders are typically in their 20's and 30's. It's viewed as the "natural progression" of scouting experience, not somethin' you do while your kid is in. There's some real advantages to young adult SM's. They're better role models, in that kids can see themselves in the role of being 23 and out of college, but they can't imagine themselves bein' in the role of parents. Adult Association has a special "older brother/sister" feel. They're more fit and athletic, and can keep up with and lead the kids. They're single and have time to contribute that parents don't. In fact, I've generally noticed that troops with young adult leaders tend to be more active and adventurous. Young adult leaders are much more in tune with environmental ethics and LNT than older folks these days, and if they themselves were scouts, their skills are both stronger and more current than us old codgers. They learn faster 'cause they're not as set in their ways, and they ain't as forgetful . Fact is, at most BSA and private camps, almost all the "responsible adults" are young adults, and they do a fine job. Only areas where they sometimes need help is dealin' with older folks, who can't take bein' told "no" by a young whippersnapper. Dat's my view anyway. What do the rest of you think? Beavah who still remembers bein' a good young lad before he became a good ol' beavah

What is the general concensus on a single leader with an out-of-wedlock child? Yah, I think askin' a bunch of different people from around da country is probably not that helpful, eh? The real answer to the question is the one you gave - What does the CO think? A lot depends on age and individual. Someone who had an out-of-wedlock child 20 years ago who has repented vs. a gal with a 6-month-old. At the same time, I'd much rather see a gal with a 6-month old than a gal who had an abortion to keep her lifestyle and SM position unchanged. Yah, this is one of those things that we're glad to have CO's for. The CO can decide what its view and mission is, and how best to convey that. Beavah

Yah, Troop114, I hear yeh. While I'm not adverse to substituting similar pants or to patrol or troop "Class B" shirts, I really hate the motley, disheveled look. But first, we must be honest and realize that's in part an older adult hangup. Dressing up even in the adult world has declined quite a bit in da last 40 years. And we have to admit that there's just better stuff to wear in the field, so we're askin' families to shell out fairly significant $ for very-light-use , indoor clothin'. Not an excuse, but an honest recognition of the lay of the land. To make this work, we old timers have to give a bit, too, at least to start things movin' in the right direction. Instruction: kids need to be taught that lookin' slovenly makes them look stupid, and shows disrespect to others. And they need to be reminded of this quite a bit. If your SM isn't good at this sort of thing - settin' high standards, explainin' 'em well, and holding boys to them, then find an ASM who is. Reward: best way to encourage a persistent habit is to reinforce it some (but not all) of the time. Like gamblin'. Give an occasional reward to a well-uniformed patrol, give more adult attention and kudos to boys who are well uniformed, etc. Consequence: Negative consequence has never seemed to me to be the way to go here. Yeh want to use consequences to curtail bad behavior, they don't really work to encourage good behavior. But excludin' boys from an activity if they're not properly uniformed seems a reasonable thing. No uniform, no award at a COH. Stuff like that. Consider Alternatives: Better to have your unit neat and uniform than it is to buy BSA brand. If your families feel that a substitution of pants is needed (so that the pants they wear to scouts can be worn to school, etc. - a Scout is Thrifty), then substitute intelligently. "Any olive pant," with a recommendation of a particular type from Columbia Outfitters, looks just fine and pretty uniform. Way better than a mix of jeans and sports shorts. At the beginnin' at least, I wouldn't sweat the kids who are showin' up direct from sports practice (or band, or...) and didn't pack their uniform to change into. Be happy that they raced to get to scouts. Yeh don't want to discourage 'em from coming on busy nights. Start by addressin' the sloppiness, and the other stuff will slowly follow. And yah, for sure, if a boy can't afford a uniform, give him one or help him find a job so he can buy his own. B