Beavah

Yah, da language wars, eh? I wonder what she'd make of my accent and cow jokes? Me, I've always been more into what a lad means by a word, rather than the word itself. Perfectly possible to say "Joey, you're a nice boy" in a way that merits a stern talkin' to . On the surface, it seems like a combination of a relatively inexperienced leader who doesn't have a knack for workin' with teens, coupled with teens who haven't yet figured out ways of workin' with an inexperienced leader. Yeh can always tell the inexperienced leaders by the silly stuff like "contracts" and such. Oath and Law are enough, eh? Besides, yeh can never write enough fine print into a contract to manage all da things a smart bunch of kids can think of . I'd share the concern with your SM. Could be this person needs some more coachin', or might be better working with the NSP . Then I'd tell your DS that you expected more of him. Mrs. Fussbudget is an adult leader, and he should be polite and kind at least, even if she hasn't yet earned his respect. Then I'd help your DS to brainstorm different strategies for him and his friends to use when dealin' with an inexperienced "boss." Teach 'em how to be sophisticated and manipulate things in a polite way. Things like how to challenge a leader appropriately rather than just takin' pot shots. I reckon he's goin' to see similar "bosses" at some time in his life, and will thank you for helpin' him learn the skills to deal with 'em politely and effectively. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, BrentAllen, there's always an argument that boy-led should be trumped by all kinds of adult policy, eh? But I'm where EagleDad is, eh? Boy run means the boys, not the adults, are responsible for workin' with the guys in their patrol on uniformin'. Simple thing, really. They have uniform inspection sheets to work from, give 'em a copy of the Insignia Guide if yer into that, let them make the calls and interpretation. If they fail, have Mrs. Jones comment to the SPL after the COH that they looked "really sloppy" and see what he does with it, eh? Trust your kids. When a boy from your unit goes for his Eagle BOR, what does he wear? Scout's Honor on your answer. Yah, I work with multiple units, eh? My native troop around here wears shirts and substitute olive pants (well, actually, they're movin' to switchbacks now). They look pretty sharp, and are typically the best-uniformed at camp every summer 'cause they don't mind wearin' it. I've done one EBOR on the trail at Philmont and that was in nylon rain jackets . My native crew wears a crew sweatshirt (their only uniform) to EBORs. I serve on EBORs around our district, and kids wear a range from shirts only to the full Oscar to Venturin' tie-dye. I'd have to say that almost every troop or kid does somethin' a bit different to make their uniform their own, eh? Yah, as the district/council guy, it's my job to support the units in their program.

The boys, not the adults, are responsible for decidin' on events. The boys, not the adults, plan and execute the events - make reservations, budget, lead, etc. You can easily identify a boy who is "in charge" of any event or meetin'. The Patrol Leaders (or TG's/Instructors) do almost all of the instruction. The Patrol Leaders and PLC can sign for most advancement. The boys, with the adults, plan and manage safety. The boys (PLC, Patrol Leaders) can set rules, and can change the way the troop works. (ex. SPL can create new PORs and staff them, as he sees a need). The boys, not the adults, are responsible for uniformin'. Yah, Adults are like gardeners, eh? They prune and fertilize and provide support, but let the boys grow. Beavah

Do a regular rope inspection, and retire it whenever it doesn't pass, eh? Especially for BSA top-ropin' use, that's a reasonable way to go. For any kind of active program like a summer camp that typically means retirin' ropes after 1 season or less. For semi-active unit programs, I've never seen a rope go for more than 2-3 years. But I could see for less active unit programs or council "once a year camporee" programs goin' the full 4 years or even more, eh? Just depends. I wish they'd get rid of da "hard falls" language - none of the top rope guys understand it; a rope can take 1,000 top-rope "falls." I think da biggest thing is the BSA needs to spend some effort gettin' real climbers involved, not just minimally-trained site leaders. Beavah

Yah, onehour. Is there a story here? I know you've been tryin' to get your troop's advancement system under control, eh? Sometimes, knowin' the terrain helps to offer yeh good advice on how to navigate the shoals. But in answer to your question, the MB's can be earned at any time prior to when the boy applies for the rank. So sure, if he earned 'em at 2nd Class, they can count toward Star, or even Eagle. Imagine if a real go-getter lad earned all the required Eagle badges while he was First Class. Well, then by the alternate rule you're proposin', he would never be able to make Life because he couldn't earn three "new" required badges while a Star Scout. Just silly, eh? Beavah

Yah, guess I don't agree much with that list, eh? O'course, we probably need to agree on what "success" is for a troop. For some, it's gettin' lots of Eagles. For me, I'd say a successful troop means kids finish as independent, thoughtful young men with sound convictions and good moral sense, and enough experience to make that really a part of 'em, not just somethin' that they "say." And they should have developed some fantastic friendships in the program to reinforce that, too. So mine is more like: 1. Adults who love workin' with kids. 2. Adults who listen to and respect kids. 3. Adults who are always keepin' the needs of the kids and the goals in mind, and choose the program tools that work for 'em to help them get there. 4. Adults who share a common vision, like the notion of "success" that I defined above, and are committed to gettin' there. 5. Adults who are friends to each other. 6. Adults who never stop learnin' and growin' themselves, and love sharin' a challenge. 7. Adults who love the outdoors. All the rest is details, eh? Beavah

Is is OK for a Boy Scout Troop and a Venturing crew to camp together on a regular basis? Yah, sure. Particularly in the same CO, or with a young troop where yeh want the extra Venturing horsepower as instructors, etc. Big issue as others have mentioned is the the crew is still goin' to want to do its own thing, not just camp with the little kids. Pretty analogous to a boy scout troop campin' with a cub pack. Nice to do occasionally, great to have the older boys around to encourage crossing over, let the parents see that the program is continuous and doesn't just end at AOL, etc. But not somethin' that the troop is going to want to substitute for doing its own boy-scout-level campin'. Beavah

Yah, onehour... I'm all in favor of well-reasoned local variations, eh? But at least on first impression, that's just dumb. I dunno what they're thinkin'. Boys receive two ranks at a single court of honor all the time. Happens now and then in every troop I know. Heck, if some troop has been holdin' a kid waitin' for him to do one pullup, he might earn Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and 1st Class all on the same night when that pullup gets done. Of course we recognize all a boy's achievements when it comes time to bestow honors. Is there some reason in your troop's culture why that wouldn't work? How would that ever help a boy to grow and achieve. From what you indicate, he did serve a few weeks as a Tenderfoot. I hope yeh gave him his Tenderfoot badge right after he earned it (like we all should). Then he had at least a few weeks with it on his uniform for fun . Beavah

Yah, have him join the crew and put the energy into one program, eh? I think that's definitely the way to go. No problem finishin' up Eagle in the crew. No need to be dual registered. The crew should be happy to do his Eagle process and Court of Honor. To honor them in return, he should probably wear the crew uniform, eh? Personally, though, I think it'd also be just fine to wear his Boy Scout uniform if it was OK with the crew and he felt it was important to him. Like J-in-KC, I don't think most of us quibble about such things. (OA sash at a non-OA function? "Belt" the MB sash?? Tut tut ) I hope your son has a fantastic time in Venturing. That should be a nice step from a troop that's closin' down, and probably a better fit for "high school time pressures." Beavah

Yah, BA, the point was to make the thread free of preachin', eh? Otherwise we really won't get an honest response from everybody. Lettin' people hear different ways of workin' gives 'em ideas, eh? Me, as a Commish, I'd always try to wear the uniform in the way the unit I was visitin' did. Seemed like the courteous approach. I'll confess, though, I've never done uniform shirt with blue jeans. Gotta agree with yeh there, BA. Never wore the old shorts. Gawd they were awful, even when they first came out! Had a bunch of the old pants over the years, and wore 'em a fair bit. Had a lot of seam problems if they were used too actively. In more recent years, I often substituted look-alikes that fit better and wore better, especially on outings. Like the new switchbacks and now wear 'em a lot on outings and to "regular" meetings, but still use the cotton look-alikes for some occasions. They behave better for semi-formal events. With Venturing green, I confess I only wear look-alike greys. Wear a scout web belt, brass-on-brass, with the greens. Wear a southwest-style belt with a Philmont buckle with the greys. Prefer the BSA Thorlo green socks. Been experimentin' with patches on the new activity shirts. Mixed results. But I like the switchbacks with the activity shirts or a similar look-alike (without patches), and colored tabs. Have a few different "official" shirts. One tan with Boy Scoutin' stuff, one green with Venturing stuff, one tan with district stuff, one tan with council/up stuff. A couple shirts have velcro in a few spots so I can hot-swap patches. Keep 'em in my left pocket along with swappable color tabs. I'll admit to a few personal and/or humorous patches here and there. Keep the knots program-specific and minimal, but I do have a pin with da full knot set on it just for dealin' with them that care about such things . Can't recall that I've ever worn any of the medals. Usually only wear the one, special, full-and-proper sized necker made by Mrs. Beavah, with a hand-carved slide that was a gift. Yah, and of course the mandatory old-timer's red jac-shirt, eh . Mine's a look-alike, gift from a scoutin' family. Only international event patches. Then there's the other adult uniform, blue-blazer thing. Way too much scoutin' clothing, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, alright now all yeh scouter lads and lasses. Time to admit it. What do yeh really wear on outings, at camp, to meetings, and for formal occasions? What uniform pieces do yeh use all the time? Which do you dispense with entirely? Do yeh have any "customized features" or fun (but unauthorized) patches? No fair gettin' down on anybody for being honest and sharin' now! A Scout is Courteous. And we all have to be honest too, eh? A Scout is Trustworthy. Beavah

Yah, I think it's pretty clear that uniformin' is an adult thing we push on kids. Some adults are comfortable with that fight, others aren't. We could wear the thing all day every day, but it wouldn't get a single kid into green and khaki without some additional pushin'. Hopefully all of us at some level realize it shouldn't be a fight - the uniform method of B-P was a uniform that shouted "fun and adventure" that kids wanted to wear, even though the shorts sometimes scandalized those of the day. I often wish we had a uniform like that again; one that lit up kids' eyes, spoke of fun and adventure, and was a bit "on the edge." As far as examples go, I gotta admit I find nuthin' quite as ridiculous as a "well-rounded" Scouter stuffed into the old-style shorts with those green and red socks. Yah, ain't nuthin' quite like that to make kids and adults run screamin' lest anybody see them. Not quite what we have in mind in terms of "bein' an example." Beavah

I got 'em, too, J-in-KC. Looks like they hit a few of us, eh? Beavah

Congrats, meamemg, and best wishes. Knock 'em dead at college. Beavah

Yah, this is where a "real" COR can make a difference, eh? Who is the CO? Are you really a member of the CO? Have good contact with the head of the organization? Then the road is what ASM describes, eh? You sit down with the organization head, outline where you want to take things and what the obstacles are, and yeh go do it. Da SM and CC serve at the pleasure of the COR. Now, to do that right, yeh move gently, of course. But firmly. I'd have the IH and COR and CC sit with the SM and do the Lem Siddons thing... acknowledge both his contributions and his physical ailments, and make him Scoutmaster Emeritus. BUT, if you're just a paper COR, and there really isn't an active CO that's interested in helpin' to goose this along, yeh might be stuck, eh? Movin' an entrenched old-timer who has a long history and lots of love and support just isn't likely if you're a newcomer. "Scoutmaster Emeritus" has to come from Whitey, eh? So in the second case, you're lookin' at bitin' the bullet and setting off on your own. Yah, yeh need to take a look at the "Starting a New Troop" thread, eh? Beavah

Yah, kenk, different troops are all over da map on this, eh? Each troop kinda figures out a way that works for them. No, the TG normally isn't considered a "member" of a NSP. But they might be "effectively" a member, and in a lot of ways they are really the PL at the start. What "other patrol" a TG is a part of is very troop dependent. Some troops have an older boys/venture/senior/leadership corps patrol, and the TG is a part of that. In other (mixed-age patrol) troops, the TG stays a member of his "native" patrol (the one he entered when he left NSP). In still others, TG/JASM/SPL/ASPL might form a little mini-patrol, or might join the "adult patrol". Same with who they eat with... could be with the NSP, could be with their "other" patrol, could be with the adults. Might start as eatin' with the NSP (for safety/instruction reasons), then move as the NSP's get more independent. Sleepin' is similar. Buddyin' with a second TG is a good choice. Buddyin' with SPL/ASPL/JASM works OK. Sometimes, if there's a youngster who needs the support, buddyin' with one of the NSP boys might be a way to go, especially for an early-in-da-year campout. Sleepin' solo near-but-not-in the NSP also might be fine for an older boy TG. Yeh gotta figure out your goals for NSP and how you want TG to work, and then pick a method that gets you there. If you try one and don't like how it worked out, switch and try a different one, eh? Beavah

Yah, Huntr. Tough time of year, eh? Lots of families on vacation and such, and a lot of high adventure unit trips goin' on too. Don't take it personally. We do all of this for da kids eh? Those who do good and seek recognition have already earned their reward; those who do good works in private where only their Father can see earn their reward in Heaven. Congrats on your beads. I'm sure da other Eagles soarin' about will chime in, too, eh? Beavah and a good ol' Beavah too...(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, Ed, but da troop committee and SM had to sign off on the project proposal as well as the district, eh? So they had to have seen it. Seems like there was still some difference in expectations. Maybe the lad cut down on things a bit? Or replaced some troop workers with some "skilled" workers along the way? Hard to say from afar, but I don't see the SM as gettin' "huffy." Just doesn't seem like it's too unusual, or will be too much of a problem for the lad. Nuthin' more than adults doin' their job. Or at least we shouldn't assume anything bad without more to go on, eh?

Hi Just Asking, Almost every final project BOR I have been on expected a detailed accounting of work time by individual, so that's not unusual, eh? Same as expecting a detailed accounting of revenues and expenses. The concern whenever it's an "all adult" work crew is whether and how the boy showed leadership. Could the adults have done this project on their own? Did they "take up the slack" and provide too much support, as adults (especially parents) often do? Did the boy really recruit them as "skilled labor" or did they step in? I think it's a reasonable thing for the SM to ask, and a good thing to prepare the boy for. His BOR will ask him those questions, and good boards "look more closely" at a situation like this. If yer right in sayin' that these helpers were part of his (already approved) project plan, then there shouldn't be too much problem as long as the boy himself did as much work as any of his "workers" and made use of good opportunities to demonstrate leadership. The SM is just doin' the job he's supposed to do - verify that the boy was really in charge, and prepare the boy for the questions he might get at his BOR. Now what happens at da BOR really depends on what the boy says and on the evidence, eh? He's got to make a case that this was really "his" start to finish - not a family project, not a public works dept. project, and that he really faced leadership decisions. Sometimes, a board will send a boy back to do a bit more to really show independence and leadership. That's rare, but it's OK, eh? It's a good thing for kids to learn to work hard to meet all expectations, even if it means some extra effort. And in Boy Scoutin' there's no such thing as "failing requirement 5". There's just, "Hey, Bill, you've done a good job so far, now here's where you've still got a bit more left to go." No failure, just not yet there. As a parent, don't turn it into a failure for him by makin' it that in your eyes. With your encouragement and support of both him and his SM, I expect he'll get through the process just fine, and in a way that you both are proud of. Beavah

Yah, da backstory makes all the difference, eh? Good on yeh for makin' all those programs work and be excitin', and for thinkin' about the young lasses and listening to your youth. Unfortunately, can't help you; COD isn't really "present" yet around here. Probably takes a critical mass to get goin'. Beavah

Yah, your district position patch. When you're sewin', yeh might consider velcro. By far da easiest way to "swap patches," swap knots, etc. . Neckers are always your discretion, but I agree with F and wouldn't wear a troop necker when servin' in a district role.

I mostly agree with nldscout. The only folks that seem to be pushin' it are Boy Scouters who are OA advocates who have moved into Venturing. The "native" Venturing crews don't seem very interested, and it doesn't really seem like it fits with da Venturing "style".

Yah, this is currently a hot item in some legal/policy/youth advocacy circles, eh? It's a bigger issue for the camps and things that are chargin' money, or makin' money off of the sale of books/magazines and such. Then there is commercial gain, and a "model" might make some claim on the proceeds. But there's other issues, eh? Custody issues and protection orders, where release of a photo gives information to a less-than-desirable family member that causes some grief. Witness protection (yah, well, it happens for schools anyway). Billy and dad are shown on the canoe trip, when dad didn't have any vacation left and instead had called in sick. These are mostly issues for large youth programs like schools, eh? Not so much for smaller programs like troops where people tend to know each other pretty well. But yeh never know. Not worth payin' too much attention to, but perhaps worth adding a sentence to your permission slips if it's convenient. Remember, though, that sensitivity about youth information on web sites is runnin' pretty high right now, so at least keepin' your parents informed (and givin' them an "opt out" or a way to ask for somethin' to be taken off) is important. Beavah

Yah, some good new ideas, eh? And some common threads. I've been very involved in 5 new troop starts over the years, a few more restarts. Required Ingredients A good market - know that targeted, interested kids are available, cub contact lines are natural, etc. An enthusiastic, committed person who is good at workin' with kids, and who likes being outdoors, to be SM. Some adult with real experience, either a dedicated UC (this must be his only unit!), or an experienced SM, who serves as active, hands-on mentor/coach. Figure SM-level commitment for the first couple months, then a slow 1-year fade. "Traditional" UC's are awful at this. Yeh need to find the practical, get dirty types. A real vision and somebody who communicates it well and loudly to adults and kids. Yeh want the vision to be specific enough and strong enough that some people look and say "no, that's not for me." It's vitally important that your startup group be all on the same page, and that means selectin' out a subset of the available market. Several adults with a long-term commitment to the effort who enjoy working together. Really Helpful Ingredients A reasonable "stock program" for the first six months to a year. Enough stuff to get 'em one year of success - contacts, how to make reservations, plans, etc. They're free to modify, but at least they have somethin' to build off of. A designated "sister troop" that can provide some older boy support, have the SM/ASM/CC over a few times to see things in action (annual planning conference, COH, etc.), and invite the new troop along on a couple of events. A strong start with a "real" CO. Not one of these DE-generated one-night-wonder CO's, but the real deal, with somebody who understands youth programs as COR. (I personally tell CO's they've got to budget at least a $1K startup donation, and at least $500 per year in support for training, needy kids, etc. A CO needs to have some skin in the game). Some seed money for initial basic gear if not from da CO, or some available "loaner" equipment. Some real practical help in settin' up initial rules for handlin' money. Separate hands-on experienced UC or other person to guide the TC through the first year and ensure a "good dynamic." One or more local troops that think they're gettin' "too big," and who have some folks interested in spinnin' off. (but yeh gotta be careful about common vision!) As far as trainin' goes, I'm with Oak Tree. Trainin' is somethin' that needs to be brought to the new unit as "on demand help," not somethin' they need to sign up for and go to when it shows up on the calendar 4 months from now. Da typical BSA trainin' session I find is too abstract, not practical enough. Things to avoid Settin' up a troop because the DE needs one to make a performance benchmark. Settin' up a new troop with the complainers who just quit a current active troop. Settin' up a new troop with cub parents who haven't done much camping, and are lookin' for Webelos III experience. Avoidin' getting clear commitments and support from a CO... just getting a meeting place and a CO on paper. Showin' new parents promo slides and video, but not explainin' too 'em that they're joining a start-up unit that will be real fun, but also a real effort. Beavah

Yah, this seems like another teapot temptest, eh? Don't know how big your son's troop is, fgoodwin. Let's say it's around 30 or so. If yeh figure each boy advances twice a year on average, plus there are non-advancement SMC's, that's a whole lot of adult time, eh? On top of the "one hour per week per boy" that your SM is puttin' in with other youth mentoring and administrative chores. If you've never worn the SM patch, it's hard to understand what a hugely generous time commitment that job is, eh? Overlappin' SM conferences with outings is a way for a SM to stay sane and not burn out, and still have a family and work life. Plus an outing is a fun environment, which makes it possible to follow the SM Handbook: "Make the conference special. Give the Scout your undivided attention throughout the meeting." Seems like the appropriate thing to do is say "Thank you for givin' time for my son," rather than complain that yer not gettin' instant gratification. As far as appeals go, demandin' time of volunteers is a mark of a "bad consumer." Yeh tend to get labeled by everybody as a problem case. O'course, your first appeal has to go to the troop committee, then the district. A wise DAC would schedule it for the meetin' at least a month and a half out, eh? Be at least 4 months before it got to the council level, 6 to 8 months for an appeal to national. Doesn't seem very practical, eh? I also ain't never seen anyone from Irving hold a gun to a volunteer's head and tell 'em they had to give more time. Beavah