Beavah

Yah, there's another option that might be available to you, eh? On military bases, there's a back door through the military command structure. You alluded to it with your two old birds. Do yeh have any other parents who are officers (or senior sergeants)? Folks who the CM is less likely to try to run over? Use 'em. It might also be possible for the gents CO to congratulate him on his volunteer work and get him some release time for training. Hard to avoid gettin' trained under those circumstances. Then tip off da trainer to the issue . You've got W2's, so yeh can be more active than parlor meetings, eh? Take the boys away into more active settings where you can manage your troll better. And o' course, hold on for Boy Scouting! Just alert da troop to the issue so they can Be Prepared for Sgt. Dad. Beavah

Yah, elvis. Hmmmm. Feel free to PM me if yeh feel like it with more info on your recent incidents and such. In general: As a volunteer in a NFP youth program (receivin' zero compensation), you're immune from civil liability by federal statute. But yeh should watch who your CO is, eh? As a registered volunteer in the BSA, you are protected by the BSA's set of insurance policies on a primary basis, up to 15+ million dollars. Except for vehicles, where your vehicle insurance will be primary and BSA insurance secondary coverage. As a homeowner, your homeowner's insurance will cover you for civil liability to the limits of your policy. You can, for relatively little money, purchase "umbrella" liability coverage tied to your auto or homeowner's policy. Figure $100 per year for $1M of coverage or so. That's not a bad thing to do for general peace of mind, both in your scouting and non-scouting life. And, finally, your troop can purchase supplementary health coverage for youth and adults, which covers the deductible for most families, or covers basic ER costs for uninsured kids. That is really cheap, but can go a long way toward makin' parents feel better after a minor accident. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Where yeh at, LocustFork? And do your adults have any special skills/expertise? Adventure expenses really come in only two major forms: transportation and guides. If you can avoid airfare and if you can go self-guided, that keeps costs down to gear, food, and incidentals... not much more than it would cost the parents to keep 'em around the house! Beavah

Yah, read older scout reluctance as a way of sayin' "I'm not sure I'm going to be good at it." It ain't fear of it not being fun, it's fear of not being successful. Sloggin' through miles of mud and real challenge is fun. What kids worry about is lack of success. I've seen da same thing for every kind of new adventure. If da troop mostly just car-camps, then the older boys who've stuck around are the ones who are successful at car-campin', eh? It's hard to move 'em out of that comfort zone without some assurance of success. Do shorter backpack trips to fun destinations. Make it a challenge with encouragement and success. Then they'll start to generate their own enthusiasm. Start 'em younger, eh? Get off da car-campin' wagon earlier when they're more willin' to be led. Just be sure to make their "first contact" experience a success. And follow Kudu's advice. Kids want adrenaline adventures, not nature strolls. Do "mountaineering" or "canyon country adventure" where backpackin' is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Cyclin' helmet is ASTM Standard F1447. Equestrian helmet is ASTM F1492. Anyone can go to a bigger library and look up da differences, eh? Cycling helmets must protect against a 2m fall onto an anvil, equestrian a 1.8m fall onto an anvil, both with a maximum allowable energy transfer (acceleration) to the skull of 300g's. As I mentioned the standard is higher for cycling helmets. The difference is in shape (snag resistance) and impact resistance against sharp (hoof-like) objects that can cause penetration rather than impact injuries. I will say that a 2m fall with a 2cm stoppin' distance only gets yeh 100g's, not 300. So more like 50g's for 1.5 inches. Leastways, if I remember my high school physics. That's the "best case ideal" for a perfect helmet. A 2m fall results in an impact velocity just short of 15mph. The standard calls for the helmet not imparting more than 300g's to a the head in a 2m / 15mph impact on hard iron, so a 20mph impact with "softer" tree seems about right, eh? Real-world collisions are more complicated, and cycling helmets have made great saves in 40+ mph impacts in road races. But not straight into an anvil . Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Now, how many kids' bike helmets have been dinged up multiple times? Same applies for puttin' 'em on a bike with such a helmet. Styrofoam is a one-shot protector. Once it's taken an impact, it's used up. Tiny dings from settin' it on a table, no problem. But a shot to the helmet and it's time to get a new one, no matter what kind of helmet it is. More dangerous to put 'em on a bike with such a helmet than to put 'em on a horse. More impact energy possible on bikes/roads/with cars. To clarify, I agree with Lisabob that a bike helmet is not an acceptable substitute for a riding helmet for actual riding. Too easy to snag on stuff, and not designed to protect against getting kicked. But in a hand-walked paddock environment with wranglers present, those aren't really issues, eh? Leastways, they're controllable by other means. Still, it's good to demonstrate to kids proper practice, even if it ain't necessarily a safety issue in a given circumstance. BTW, a quick check shows that bike helmets are actually certified to a slightly higher standard in terms of protectin' against impacts from falls and crashes. And bike helmets have legal standards requirements, while equestrian helmets have only voluntary standards, eh? O'course, I still wear my faithful old cowboy hat myself. Beavah

The fact that "served" when referring to LFL means that BSA receives a per student fee for leasing the LFL material to a school for use. BSA has no direct involvement, checks and balance, or oversight of delivered program. Yah, but LongHaul, that's exactly the same for traditional Scouting, eh? The BSA receives a per-scout fee for licensing the program material to a chartering partner to use. BSA has no direct involvement, checks and balance, or oversight of the delivered program. They just provide training and resources. Now, beyond that, I agree with you. I think it's fraudulent to not be completely honest with donors about how their money will be used. And whether UW or BSA does it, showing one thing but spending completely on another just ain't kosher. And there is a distinction between "members" and "participants" because of the separate incorporation of LFL. Beavah

Is this allowed at a persons home and not at say an actually business that is insured and licensed for stuff or does that only apply to a council event? There's no specific prohibition on cub unit horsemanship orientation rides for units that I'm aware of (for Wolf Cubs and above - no Tigers). Da Health & Safety Guide stuff you quote is for councils running formal programs. Our council routinely issues tour permits for cub outings that include basic (walked) horsemanship introduction at a local private farm. The fact that in your case the establishment is familiar with kids through 4-H is a real bonus. My red flag is up at this point because the part about using certified headgear I was told the helmets the 4H kids have will probably be to big so bring bike helmets. Is that allowable? Yah, in general I'd agree with wingnut that yeh should try to use a sport-specific helmet. In this specific case I think a bike helmet is just fine. Bike helmets are designed to absorb a lot more energy than a fall from 4 feet. They're designed to absorb that fall along with a 20+ mph impact. A horse being hand-walked by an experienced 4-H youth or wrangler just ain't goin' to compare with ridin' a mountain bike into a tree. I just want to make sure I am interpreting these guidelines correctly. I mean its one thing to do this activity as non scouters but if its a cub activity i want to make sure its done safely. Horses are big animals and there's always some risk, eh? Falls can injure arms and necks no matter what helmet yeh wear. Same as kids climbin' trees or playin' baseball. Misbehavin' kids can get shoved or even kicked by a horse. You're still probably at bigger risk drivin' to the farm then you are being walked around a paddock sittin' on a horse. File a tour permit if your council expects one, keep your kids well-behaved, and have a good time. Beavah P.S. As far as runnin' a private trip goes, I think if each parent is there and given a choice to let their kid participate or not, the risk is divided between the establishment and the parent for the most part. Trip organizer's just providin' the opportunity. There's no need to get all afraid about personal liability from runnin' private trips. We as parents do birthday parties all the time, don't we?(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, HillBilly, I think you're overthinkin' this because you've got such a strong swim background. A heck of a lot of kids are able to complete the BSA 100 yards, but exhausted. They really don't catch up doin' a rest stroke because they're not comfortable in the water and are strugglin' to do that. The float bit isn't a suggestion for restin' in 3-foot swells. It's just a quick measure of a boy's comfort level in the water. If the boy finishes 100 yards and is able to rest/be relaxed afloat, then that establishes a high level of water comfort with lots of available "reserves". Yah, in contrast, a boy who thrashes forward through 100 yards and then continues to thrash treadin' water for a bit really doesn't have the same level of water comfort, eh? Since safety on the water really depends on bein' comfortable, not panicking, and being able to conserve energy, it's an OK test. Don't get too caught up in da details, keep your eyes on the goals. If a boy demonstrates 75 yards of continuous strong swimming, 25 yards of relaxed "rest" stroke, and can then "hang out" in the water resting by floatin' or sculling gently, he's passed. He's demonstrated swimming ability, comfort in the water, and the ability to conserve energy. Beavah

Yah, HillBilly, good job takin' on buildin' up a new troop, and havin' a commitment to doin' it the right way. Your fitness challenges are certainly real ones. We've had it happen 'round here occasionally to existing troops, getting a whole mess of "modern american youth" cross over at once. It's tough for an active program to deal with sometimes. I think yeh gotta face the fact that one meetin' a week, one outing a month ain't really going to impact these kids' fitness. That's "occasional" exercise, not "regular". Now, yeh might say that the kids get "homework" to work on on their own, but let's be honest, eh? 10 and 11-year-old out of shape lads aren't likely to be self motivated. They need companions to get 'em up, and lots of positive encouragement to keep 'em goin'. So, if you're really committed to this, I'd suggest: 1) Try to partner with a youth sports/fitness program that meets more regularly - at least a few times a week. Best if it's achievement-oriented, not competition oriented. Could be "very recreational" soccer, aerobic kickboxing/martial arts with a lot of encouragement, whatever. Yeh gotta get the guys to sign up and participate as a group. Sometimes local school rec programs or community colleges offer good options. 2) Yah, or yeh can try to do it yourself. It's only a couple o' extra hours per week . Hold 3 meetings per week. Do scoutin' stuff - hiking, biking, scout games, swimmin', paddling - but all active, and all with a push toward fitness. Given what you describe, rather than tryin' a rapid run at T-2-1 only to get "stuck", consider makin' up a few "progress" awards of your own that become a big thing in your troop. Nuthin' says that ranks and MB's are the only kind of "advancement" we can do in Scoutin'. We have honors "advancement" programs (OA - ordeal, brotherhood, vigil), Mic-O-Say with its levels, etc. No reason why yeh can't make up your own "fitness advancement" or "fractional tenderfoot awards" and give 'em out at Courts of Honor. Yeh can also do a summer camp shot at one of the "fat camps". No reason summer camp has to be (just) at a BSA camp. Take some BSA folks to do a few MBs and work on rank, then use the camp resources to help with fitness and lifestyle issues. Most of 'em would be happy to work with you. I gotta tell you, it's really tough to keep these kids in da program. It takes a lot of effort. If a boy does fade on yeh, though, keep the door open and check back in... usually, biology gives 'em a boost around age 13 or so. You might get 'em to come back then. Beavah

Yah, GAHillBilly, yeh can probably find a recent thread about pullups around here. Some troops will substitute a "flexed arm hang" (start at the top of the pullup position and hang for as long as possible). I've seen folks use a modified pushup (from the knees rather than toes) for really "big" kids too. Personally I think the intent is to do as you say, and get kids goin' for the TF requirement, and then work with 'em more on Personal Fitness MB. I think for your truly overweight guys, yeh probably just want to get 'em moving a lot doin' fun stuff - runnin' about and bikin' and hikin' until their weight comes down a bit. Way to think about how to help the lads! Beavah

Yah, it's occasionally difficult for those lean, fit lads. Not quite as hard as yeh suggest for most, if they're technique is good (submerge as much of body as possible, especially head). But killer for someone like a distance runner or swimmer. Our aquatics folks will give it a thumbs up for gentle prone sculling or a gentle relaxed slow-forward elementary backstroke. Anything that allows good aerobic recovery while still afloat. Practically speakin', the point is to make sure the lads are strong swimmers and comfortable in the water. If they can easily sprint 75 yards, rest afloat to recover, and then continue swimmin'/sprinting strongly without panicking, I'd say they're done. All your fit swim team guys should get the signoff as a matter of course. Beavah

Yah, Lisabob, I think yeh gotta be a bit realistic, eh? A Merit Badge and a one-hour BSA trainin' aren't going to solve this problem. Mom's clearly at her limit, and a conversation with the SM isn't goin' to get her the tools she needs to be a more effective parent. Yeh gotta look at whether you can provide the depth of trained, committed, personal, individual attention this boy and family need. Yeh gotta plug in beyond your current staff. That's why I was steerin' you to Big Brothers/Big Sisters (introduce a long-term, committed male role model in the boy's whole life, who can also be involved in Scouting). Plug into social services as J-in-KC suggests. If you're goin' to work this problem, yeh gotta really work it. Scouters meetin' with school officials and docs eh? Bein' a real part of the team. Or not. But no half-measures, eh? Just ain't fair to any of the kids. This boy needs a real, long-term stable positive environment to get through his issues, with a lot of tight feedback to medical and counseling professionals. If yeh can't provide that, help find the lad someone who can, but don't cheat him by pretending a single training session is goin' to do it. Beavah

Yah, gwd-scouter, here's a round of applause for you and your kids! I know it's been a bit of a haul da last couple of years. Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! Beavah

Yah, I remember one of da Coleman Peak stoves. I picked it up because a couple of troops were lookin' at 'em. I think the thing lasted less than a week in the field with me. It seemed to have a problem with developin' weaker flame and less heat over time. Tore it down and rebuilt it at least three times, each time it would work well for a bit, then weaken out again. That's with very gentle treatment and careful procedures, eh? Could just imagine 'em with kids. I remember an early MSR-knockoff style thing that I think Coleman did as well. A buddy of mine had one. The materials they used were cheaper, and I remember that the ball that they used in the pump ball valve reacted poorly to temperature. Specifically, it shrunk too much in cold weather. Can't remember whether that made it stick or leak, but the effect was that instead of maintaining pressure the fuel can would spray large amounts of gasoline up the pump handle and all over the pump assembly. The thing was darn dangerous below 10 degrees. Beavah

Yah, my immediate reaction was da same as DanKroh's too. This sounds like Asperger's. In which case ADHD may be a misdiagnosis and the ADHD meds may be a problem. Of course this might also be real parenting problems and hangover from loss of dad, coupled with cultural factors. In troops, I've found AS kids benefit a lot from a consistent, firm adult dealin' with them, and one or two consistent, firm PL-type scouts. Consistency, firmness, and an understandin' of the syndrome are really important. In particular, every boy in the troop needs to be taught about AS, and understand the "social cues" issues. If the boys understand, and are taught some simple techniques, it sure helps a lot. In cases with poor parenting, again the kid will benefit a lot from a consistent, firm adult and highly structured environment. Scoutin' probably doesn't meet the "highly structured" criterion, so it might not be the best. But you might solve the consistent, firm adult problem by hooking up with Big Brothers. Gettin' the lad a semi-permanent Big Brother adult male role model would give him support both in Scouting and at home. All that bein' said, I think a troop needs to be honest about the skill and capacity of its adult and youth leaders. If you've got the skill and talent to invest in a kid like this, that's super. It will take a lot, and you'll make progress, but it's always goin' to be work. Good work, but definitely work. If you don't have the capacity and skill to deal with this, you're not helpin' the kid. Better that he find an activity with paid professional staff that can support him safely. More important, you will have incidents and injuries. People can't operate above their capacity without losin' control of things and makin' mistakes. Just the way it is. We wouldn't take kids snow camping unless we had the skills and capacity to handle it, eh? In fact, we'd be pretty darn critical of a troop that did. Same thing here. Beavah

And no I don't have examples of other organizations doing the same thing, but that doesn't make it any less true! I can think of a few. The members and employees of Catholic Relief Services don't need to be Catholic, even though CRS is a service branch of the Catholic Church. Yeh can find all kinds of similar arrangements where religious organizations have an outreach/ecumenical service arm with different membership/employment requirements. Salvation Army, many religious denomination schools, etc. Now, it's an interestin' question whether organizations should be forced to create "secular branches" in order to prevent being excluded from the public forum. Seems like state suppression of ideas to me. Beavah

Aw, shucks you guys. I was hopin' you'd comment on my new attempt at a list, not on BW Feeback is a gift, and I'm feelin' deprived . B

Yah dluders, glad yeh stopped lurkin'. Nothing but agreement and applause here. Great post. I was kinda intrigued by this comment: Bob White's list is one you can use to walk in on a couple of Troop meetings and see whether those traits are present. Beavah's would be nearly impossible to figure out. So I was noodlin' about that and dluder's comments about a list with some validity. Here's just a few ideas: 1) When dealin' with youthful (mis)behaviors, the adult(s) almost always Praise in Public and Reprimand in Private. Rambunctious lads get a gentle word, a look, a bit of time chattin in a corner. Not much yellin' goin' on. No Scoutmaster's Minutes that are really lectures on behavior. 2) There is some tangible sense of purpose and a hint of an underlying plan, but it aint scripted. Theres also a lot of serendipity and structured chaos. Its active and a bit messy. 3) With minimal prompting, da Scoutmaster will expound on all the things they do for junior leader training, on a regular and ongoing basis, and how it fits in with and drives the program. 4) You observe older scouts step in and correct/help/cheer up younger scouts, without any adult tellin em to, pretty frequently. 5) There is lots of program, achievement, recognition and praise happening that has absolutely nothing to do with advancement. 6) There is excitement and a sense of freshness in both the boys and adults. Both talk about some new thing theyre trying; some new trip they just did. Theyre reinventing and improvin what they do on an ongoing basis. 7) If yeh ask a boy above 2nd Class how to do CPR, he can tell you without lookin it up. 8) Its impossible to tell which kid is the Scoutmasters son (or any ASMs son) because theyre all treated the same. 9) The boys seem to genuinely like and want to be around the scouters. They seek out the SM to tell him/her about something they did that week just because they want to share. 10) The adult leaders get together in a regular, informal way to talk about scouting. Standing "coffee" appointment after the meeting, regular once a month diner breakfast, whatever. I'll think about it some more, eh? I'm sure I'm missin' a bunch of things. Anybody else want to join in? Beavah

Yah... hmmmm... I second scoutldr. There just ain't no such thing as "sexual harassment" in a non-workplace environment. So she's either accusin' him of being a cad, or she's filin' a complaint for some kind of assault. Everybody's addressed the latter. Bring in the big guns. At da CO level, I'd probably recommend yeh suspend both of 'em from participation until it's resolved. Now, if she's just accusin' someone of being a cad while wavin' around big words and threats, then I think da CC and COR jump in, with da UC and DE backin' 'em up. You meet with the woman and you proceed like it's a formal complaint. Yeh take the complaint seriously, and you talk to parties and investigate. Yeh might still suspend both of 'em while you do that. Then you present your conclusions and you remove or put on double-secret-probation whichever one is "guilty" (either of unscoutlike behavior or of a false accusation). My guess is that if da first meeting is handled well and she knows what she's facin', this woman is goin' to backpaddle fast. Beavah

Yah, great example skeptic... both of a well-measured response by adults and of the two possible outcomes for kids even when we do all that we can do. Beavah

Yah, I think children should not be allowed to talk to each other unless adults are present. They might say somethin' mean, and we can't have that. B

Yah, hmmm... I figure da error rate and "dropped records" in ScoutNet is about 10%, eh? Seems like every year there's stuff to fix or re-fix. Not sure whether that's a staff problem from da paper forms or a ScoutNet problem or both. We're workin' hard on unit electronic advancement. Interface-wise, it's still a bit of a mess. It can be really tough on kids if the units don't keep bulletproof records and/or aren't good at submittin' reports. As you'd expect, our active, on-the-ball troops also tend to be the ones that keep solid records. Our weaker units get to be a bit of a mess, and often play "catch up" at Eagle time. Being stricter about badge purchases requirin' a report form has helped, but only a little bit, eh? Yeh can't stop people from buyin' for a second uniform and such. Da "advancement overhead" is pretty high, eh? Multiple cross-checks are still necessary around here. Beavah

Yah, time for a fun, practical thread, eh? Share your favorite Court of Honor elements, outlines, or events. What things have you/your kids done that you thought worked really well? What's a typical "program" for a court of honor that flows well? What Court of Honor "happening" was really memorable? What would yeh tell a new SM or SPL to get 'em going on a great COH. Share some ideas and experiences with da rest of us! Beavah

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