Beavah

Or what you get when you shear a plastic sheep?

Yah, can I ask a question? Have your ship members ever taken a LNT trainer course? Done much frontcountry & backcountry LNT camping after takin'' a trainer course? I''m all for usin'' Venturers in WB training. But it should be done right, eh? Seems like if we want to have a good training experience for da woodbadgers, we''d want to provide them qualified trainers (youth or adult). Seems unfair to the youth to be asked to do somethin'' without proper preparation and experience. Beavah

Yah, F, just depends where you live, eh? Around here with thousands of lakes and streams, canoein'' is pretty popular. It''s very likely that Scouters know and have already done (a dozen times!) favorite stretches of rivers and lakes with kids within a short drive of home. Fact is, I''ve run every trip available through every local outfitter at least that many times, and could sit and write you a float plan from memory. Proper supervision, PFDs, all the rest of Safety Afloat perfectly covered. That ain''t uncommon. Most active troops build up that level of experience with their local area pretty quickly. Just depends where yeh live, eh? Some troops with more mountains than lakes can probably do the same with climbin''. Not us, we need to put that on the calendar and plan, cause it''s a fair drive and da one obvious area gets crowded. Betcha Alaskans go out in cold weather pretty readily, while Floridians better carefully plan their cold weather experiences. So yah, I guess you''re hearin'' right. If you really do know what you''re doin'', short trips can go just fine without formal plannin''. I don''t expect any of us sit and write a navigation plan to drive across town to get groceries, eh? When we''ve done things enough times, the plan is in our head. Just the same, you''re right that someone new to town may do well to plan such a trip, gettin'' out a map and askin'' for information about grocery stores. Beavah

Troop went from 25 active to 75 active in the last 2 years....and some unreasonable parents Yah, dat''s nuts, cheffy! Too much growth, too fast. Particularly when a troop gets much about 50 boys, yeh gotta change how things operate. More middle-management required, lots more trained leaders (youth and adult). It''s a tough position. If yeh still think scoutin'' is in your blood, here''s a couple of options: 1) Start a new troop. Take a core group of 20-30 or so from your current troop and go build a program that you can really be proud of. Make it fresh, make it bold, start it out just right, and build da sort of traditions that you think really work. Your district will be grateful, at least in the short run. And sometimes either a "vacuum" or a new challenge attracts new volunteers. 2) Relax and let the current troop consolidate for a bit. Don''t spend a lot of effort recruitin''. Be proactive and encourage your problem parents to go start their own troop. Go back down to a manageable size of 45 or so that you can handle without burnin'' out. It''s really tough to find volunteers with the skill to handle a big troop of 75 or more. In my experience over the years, these are almost always one-man-wonders, and when the one guy moves on, the troop shrinks back to an under-50 size. Often painfully, eh? So yeh do Scoutin'', yourself, and your successor a service if yeh scale back the size and let someone start a new troop to help the other boys in your market area. Just MHO. I''m sure now we''ll hear from all da mega-troop folks. Beavah

I would hate to see someone like Joe hung out to dry when taking a few simple steps to inform oneself and act accordingly would avoid that. Yah, eisley, I may not be understandin'' you. How exactly would anybody be "hung out to dry" by not filin'' a tour permit? Who would do the hangin''? Every trip (just like every Eagle project) has some changes that happen along the way. One driver gets sick, another takes her place. Weather turns to mush so it becomes unsafe to bike so boys go to the local indoor waterpark instead. Even if you''ve got a tour permit it doesn''t mean that there can''t or shouldn''t be changes. Plenty of times there needs to be. And o''course we all know and understand that a tour permit has nothing to do with BSA insurance coverage, right? We never leave our adult volunteers or chartering partners hangin''. It''s part of what the BSA promises so that we can attract charter partners and volunteers in the first place. Tour permits are fine things. Units should fill ''em out when they''re asked to. Helps remind new folks of requirements, helps ensure da committee knows what the leaders are doin'', helps keep our BSA council friends in the loop. But they''re not the same thing as real safety, and they''re not the same thing as liability protection. I think Joe did a fine thing, takin'' the lads out for some fun after a morning''s worth of patriotic labor. If he followed Safety Afloat or an equivalent standard then he did right by safety as well. Beavah

Above ground fireplace is a must. Hmmmm.... well, maybe. Better to be fire-free, eh? Yah, problem is that LNT is ethics more than techniques. Da techniques for different areas (frontcountry, backcountry, pine forest, desert, snow, rainforest, alpine, river, lake, and all kinds of other environments are different dependin'' on the environment. So there just ain''t a single model campsite. Might be fun to get some WAG-bags, tho Beavah

Yah, I guess it all depends how "adult-run" yeh like your programs to be. Kids in my day used to do pick-up games and spontaneous, unplanned activities all da time. So did families. Lots of my best memories as a lad were from those serendipitous spontaneous outings. It was pretty common that if we finished a task early, we''d go out and hit da frozen pond for impromptu hockey, or high-tail it down to the local creek to play pirate and splash around. Adults included, sometimes! In these days of hyper-planned parenting, pick up games and other spontaneous, safe fun have been takin'' it on the chin. Kids are barely allowed to ride their bike around the neighborhood without it bein'' scheduled a week in advance. I don''t see it as an improvement, myself. Kudos (Kudus?) to Joe Mac for him and his troop havin'' good, safe, fun with the lads. Kudos to da parents, too, for not havin'' their kids so overscheduled that they couldn''t flex for a fun, spontaneous activity. Dat''s sound parenting in my book. Beavah

Yah, eisley, yeh gotta remember that not all councils ask for a tour permit when you''re doing an activity or campout within their service area. So Joe might have been just fine. That fact should also tell yeh that a tour permit has nuthin'' to do with insurance coverage or anything else. It''s just a tool to help units with planning and safety. And he might have had a tour permit for da flag service, eh? It''s OK for plans to change when we''re out runnin'' trips. Happens all the time. Better to ask Joe if he had qualified supervision, done swim checks on everybody, done the proper canoe handlin'' instruction, had PFD''s and all that. Real safety. But I trust that he did, eh? Beavah

Yah, I confirm da bug Ohio Scouter reported. When posting a new message, I get Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error ''80040e14'' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver] Line 1: Incorrect syntax near ''9''. /forums/forum_library.asp, line 261 The message still posts, so da error is happening after the update (but lots of folks are startin'' to double-post as a result). I''m running FireFox 2.0.0.3, Mac platform.

Not just you, uz2bnowl. When I hit "submit your message" I got an error message, so I tried again. Seems like the posting goes through, but generates an error message when it tries to re-display the thread. Somethin'' for Scouter Terry to look at perhaps. B

No problems, Joe. Yeh did it right. I can''t count da number of times we''ve done somethin'' similar with lads, especially when they''ve been puttin'' in good hard labor. Ice cream afterward, open shoot at the range for all da youth camporee leaders after cleanup, trip to the cider mill after a service project, spontaneous mountain biking outing after crew members led a basic biking clinic for a few troops. Her son was called for the flags activity. The canoe trip was an addition to the flags activity because the guys worked so hard they finished early. End of story. O''course, it''s goin'' to be hard for her son to grow up unless she does. Beavah

What's the difference between ethical behavior and moral behavior? Yah, hopefully most of da time, not much. But sometimes a profession will define a set of ethics that may conflict in some ways with what would be ordinary personal morality. Some of da canons of legal ethics work that way, like a defense attorney working zealously to get a murderer off. Sometimes professional ethics can strengthen a moral obligation that wouldn't otherwise exist, like the confidentiality of a physician being stronger than the confidentiality of talkin' to a colleague. In da case of Congresscritters, ethics demands they represent their constituents and also act in the best interest of the country, and conduct themselves in office in an honorable way. Seems like da problem is that few are ethical, and a fair number aren't moral to boot . Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Now THAT was interesting. I'll have to see if I can IL a copy of that dissertation. Yeh can actually buy the book. Search Amazon for the title. B

Yah, I gotta agree with onehour and fred. There's lots of verbal gymnastics goin' on here, but what it sure seems to be sayin' is Christian = wrong, exclusive, not diverse. Reality is every group is in some measure exclusive. If yeh go to a model train club and try to hijack the meetin' to talk about model planes, you're goin' to be excluded. Doesn't mean model train folks don't enjoy and respect model plane folks in other venues. Gettin' jobs done, especially jobs like educatin' kids, requires some commonly held goals and values. It simply can't be fully "diverse" because some views are mutually exclusive, and everybody would be wastin' time arguin' over whose principles should be used. B

BSA self-funds the first million dollars of each liability claim. This means that almost all money spent on a liability claim is Scouting money, not insurance money. Yah, I'm glad they tell people that little tidbit about the structure of the insurance coverage these days. But yeh gotta admit it's an absurd statement. All money is Scouting money, including what we pay for insurance premiums. And when you're self-insurin' the first $1M, good financial management requires that you structure it like an insurance system anyway, with regularly accumulated "premiums" going into an insurance reserve. We do safety because we care about kids, not because of money. O'course, that insurance reserve might look temptin' to an exec lookin' for a salary increase. Good Scouting Money, that. Nope, I didn't say that! B

Welcome ICJones! Depends where yeh are and what your pros think, but I'd stay away from public schools. As Lisa'bob says, the guidance from National is not to use 'em any more. However, a separately incorporated public school PTO is OK as a chartering partner. Methodist, LDS, and Catholic churches in particular tend to be familiar with the program and willing partners. A fair number of mens and coed service groups/clubs also work fine. Local businesses, da Chamber of Commerce, Unions, etc. are also possibilities. Beavah

Yah, I think yeh need to add a little paragraph like the teasers on TV serials: "Previously on CubDrama..." Gettin' hard to keep track. It's always a shame when adults try to make a drama out of a youth program. Keep pluggin' in a courteous way. B

Yah, for some truly great fireside tales on river trips, there's a book out there that's a compilation of groover tales. Can't think of the title, but I'm pretty sure it's got "groover" in it. A groover is an ammo can latrine for river runnin' (so named because of the grooves it leaves when you squat on it, though these days there's all kinds of seat-type contraptions). Transportin ammo cans and pod bags of poo on a river corridor naturally has the potential for an occasional catastrophic tale. Bet we see a similar book about WAG-bag disasters some day. Anybody who's ever been above treeline on a highly trafficked mountain like Whitney can appreciate da need to pack it out though. The mountain gets really gross in short order otherwise. Not much natural decomposition in alpine areas. Beavah

Nah, our Eagle candidates all tell us that the teasin' continues right through high school, even among "good" honor-roll kids. It is true the upper HS scouts no longer care about it. Much. We could easily double the size of the organization if we could overcome the poor market perception of kids about Scouting. Funny thing is that even traditionally nerdy stuff - computer/science clubs, Dungeons and Dragons gaming, etc. don't have the same peer pressure negative as scouting. Least it seems dat way. Beavah

Just a tad over $400 for a $2M umbrella policy Must be you guys live in really litigious states. We're a calmer, more polite bunch out here in the heartland. $95 for $1M accordin' to my agent, $165 for $2M on my last statement, with auto coverage at the state minimums. Beavah

Yah, HillBilly! Thanks for remindin' us all what it's like to be an enthusiastic new leader! Like J-in-KC says, Tour Permits are meant to be a help to you and information to the council, not so much a regulatory thing. Makes sure your TC knows what's going on and approves, makes sure you've thought through a few major risk issues like transportation. Since it's not a regulatory thing, there's different practices different places. Some councils don't require a tour permit for any activity or outing within their council boundaries. Others want one for an outing (day trip or overnight), even if it's in their service area. Nobody expects tour permits for MB counseling sessions or troop meetings. So.... Point #1: Correct. A Merit Badge Counselor can meet with two or more boys with no second adult and no tour permit. Just no one-on-one. Point #2,#3: Correct. No tour permit is expected for meetings (troop, PLC, patrol, etc.). Point #4: Correct, with a couple of caveats. National Tour Permits are expected for trips across international borders even if less than 500 miles. As I mentioned, some councils don't accept tour permits for outings within their council service area. Point #5: Yep, most of the blanks are about transportation, because that's typically the biggest risk. But there are a few other blanks and check boxes, eh? It's not just about transportation. Conclusion #1: Nope. Tour permit required for an outing, period. Even if the parents drive their own boys to the campsite, you still should be filing a tour permit for the camping. Conclusion #2: Nope. Trigger is an outing (as opposed to a meeting). If your troop does outdoor meetings a lot, you might consider anything over 4 hours to be an "outing." Other information: While a local tour permit asks for 2 weeks advance notice, that is not the reality. Most are approved by some random council office worker immediately upon receipt. A bit of friendly sweet-talkin' will get you 1-day turnaround. Hope dat helps, eh? It really is a fairly rational system if yeh don't get too caught up in the bureaucratic contradictions Beavah

Yah, seems like an occasion to invite all 100 of 'em back...

Yah, in da bigger picture your problem is the greenhorn committee. Your committee needs some ballast, or it will get rolled over by whoever is willin' to blow and storm. When you look for a troop, look for a troop that has that kind of longer-term leadership ballast that can deal with da stormers like your CM. Good luck tonight. Keep us posted. Beavah

Wow, Its Me. Dat's quite a change of heart in a few short months, eh? Are yeh sure? Beavah

Yah, OK, MommaBear goes nuclear over lovely son being sent to bed without supper? Assumin' junior isn't diabetic or somesuch, the way to handle this is for your CC to rule the topic out of order and continue with the meetin' agenda. Then in a private, quiet, and polite way have the CC and another person (SM/UC/COR) sit down with MommaBear and offer her a different cup of porridge. Since clearly she isn't comfortable having junior participate in your troop, you are happy to transfer her son's records to another troop of their choice. Either she gets the message or she goes away. Either way, problems solved. Just ain't worth spendin' time on bad customers like this. References: * Federal Volunteer Protection Act of 1997. The Act interacts with state law on the matter, so it's hard to give highly specific guidance, but here's a reasonable summary (http://www.njnonprofits.org/vol_protect_act.html). * BSA provision of liability insurance is in the Charter Agreement form signed each year at rechartering. Specific generalities on the nature of the coverage are available from your council. * Read your homeowner's policy . In general, though, all homeowner's policies include a tort liability component to protect your home. * Talk to your auto or home insurance carrier/agent and ask about "umbrella liability" policies. They can hook yeh up. * Ask your CC or DE for information on the "Health Special Risk" health insurance plan for units. In some councils, the council pays for it for all units (so it's free for the troop). In other councils, there's information and a signup option included in the recharter packet, which has to be mailed separately. Beavah