Beavah

Now that is EXACTLY what opponents of vouchers often say is likely to happen. Yah, dat''s also what the proponents of vouchers say should happen, eh? Schools and school districts that aren''t serving kids close down. Others take their place. The disruption is painful in the short term only because the failing system was propped up for so long. Of course in Detroit, it seems from Lisa''bob that things are set up in such a way that new schools can''t be opened near kids. Just seems silly to me, eh? THAT is the marketplace working right now, without vouchers. It is, or used to be the, the American way...take personal responsibility and pay your own way... self-reliance rather than reliance on big government. No problem with that, but it means ending free government education. That kind of artificial subsidy is very market distorting, eh? Cut all school taxes to near zero, and just provide scholarships to kids in need the way we do for college. Bet we''d see a lot more parent involvement in their kids'' education if they were payin'', eh? That also gives those kids trapped by economics and race in failing districts like Detroit scholarship options that they don''t have in our "liberal" system. Of course most of our public school advocates prefer that "those people" are stuck in their failing "public" districts, eh? Best not to have them choosin'' our nice private academies. Beavah

Yah, OK OGO, sorry I had trouble readin'' through my bifocals. As a one-shot outing, sure, why not? Could even become a regular feature once a year. You could up the challenge next time by having a set of odd ingredients to do something good with. Sorta like a "Top Chef challenge". Now, if in their regular patrols all they''re doin'' is ramen noodles and cold cereal, then I reckon the place to start is by using your JLT time, or a part of each PLC meeting each month, to teach the patrol leaders how to cook. Beavah

You seem to be very sensitive about the whole voucher issue. Actually, Im not particularly sensitive about school vouchers. I just automatically respond whenever it feels like Im hearin an argument based on prejudice rather than an understandin of the complexities of things. Doesnt matter if its school vouchers or someone makin a naive argument about tour permits . Seems like this topic was worth a spin-off for those who were interested. Curious, packsaddle, that you mention higher education. Our higher education system, where government vouchers are plentiful, is da envy of the world. We don''t seem to object to our tax dollars being used to help a kid attend Georgetown. Its hard to point to a higher education institution that is truly failing, while Lisabob does a good job of pointin to a number of K-12 districts that really are failing badly. I agree with you, though, that rural areas dont provide enough population for an ordinary competitive response. Home schooling is the only alternative for most rural areas, or more recently distance learning at the secondary level. Small rural towns usually only have one grocery store, too. Still, an awfully high percentage of the population lives in suburban and urban areas where educational diversity and choice can be offered. Beavah

Yah, I''m with FScouter here, eh? This might be an OK thing to do for a while, if you''ve got young PL''s who really don''t yet have the skills to do menu planning on their own, and you don''t have the adults to actively coach each PL. You work with the PLC as a group, demonstratin'' how to put together a single menu that''s good and nutritious, and then help ''em buy the right quantities. That can be a fine way to teach for a few months, until they build up a repertoire. But then it should fade out. Yeh might start by encouraging a "strong" patrol to do food on their own, and then as each patrol "takes off" let this troop method technique go. Of course, this could also be a way to start transitioning from "troop method". If up until now you''ve been doing everything as a whole troop, you take the first step by keeping planning and buying as a whole troop, but do cooking by patrol. Beavah

This depends very much on the local/state "rules" and is not necessarily true everywhere. It''s true everywhere there''s a voucher program operatin'' in the U.S. at present. It''s not true for other countries in the free world which support all schools equally. Charter schools and district-run magnet schools provide educational choice within the "public" government-run system in the U.S., and they typically take a much larger fraction of the district dollars. Greater than 100% for the magnet schools (more resources spent on "special" programs), usually 100% of the operating $ for charters (but often weaker access to capital $). The point is that an argument that vouchers "take money from public schools" is spurious. In fact, kids goin'' to private schools, whether on their own or by voucher, save money for the public system. Beavah

If a state wants to put their resources into vouchers or something to the detriment of public schools, we can merely hold onto our admission standards and wait for the criticism when fewer of those students are accepted. Yah, interestin' set of prejudices there, eh? As GAHillBilly points out, on average home schoolers do very well academically. Similarly, private and parochial schools generally outperform public schools in major metropolitan areas (after adjusting for race and socioeconomic factors). All da voucher programs are a net benefit to public schools, because for every kid that leaves only half of the money leaves, which mean da public schools get to keep half of the taxpayer dollars in exchange for not educating a kid. In terms of public policy, there's not much real downside to parental choice in schoolin'. After all, every other country in da free world offers it. It's just a religious issue for some folks who "believe" in government-controlled education. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, scoutldr, I don''t think it''s just public schools they''re pickin'' on. I think it''s all age-based/grade level schools. But we gotta be careful. It''s also not "nobody can get a good education" in such places. Rather it''s "there might be better ways to do it." Given the weakness of U.S. students compared to international peers, or da high numbers of dropouts, teen suicides, school violence, teen alcohol & drug use, etc. maybe Epstein''s got a point worth considerin''. Problem is economic. We''re not willing to commit that many adult hours to raising kids. Better to pay a few adults to keep large groups of kids busy all day so that the rest of us can do our adult jobs without havin'' the hassle of young people around. Beavah

Sounds like a great trip, Joe, and a good way to check out an activity. Nice job. Dat''s one of the bonuses of a troop having its own gear like canoes - you can take advantage of spur-of-the-moment opportunities. So, no tour permit expected, nearly 1:1 adult coverage, all aspects of Safety Afloat covered, participant parents happy. Any apologies from da nay-sayers? Beavah

Keep in mind that Epstein (as far as I''''ve read him to date) seems to say that observation leads to the conclusion that the pathologies of adolescent behavior arise when youths are primarily in the company of their peers, and are avoided when youth are primarily in the company of adults. I''''m not sure that this observation supports the Patrol Method as you''''ve outlined it. Yah, I''m not sure. I think it is as long as you use "traditional" or mixed-age patrols. In that environment, kids aren''t completely with same-age peers, but rather have older boys to learn from by observing, and younger boys to show things to, care for, and lead. I''''m inclined to think it will take some extensive and focused adult mentoring before a Patrol will be capable of even selecting leaders effectively. Of course it will. If it takes some explaining and demonstratin'' and coaching and supervision to learn how to use a knife, naturally it takes explaining and demonstrating and coaching and supervision to select leadership. Doesn''t come built in at da factory, eh? Beavah

My problem with that definition is that almost every act can be called "intentional". Yah, in ordinary English. ''Cept in this context, it ain''t ordinary English. Refers to an intentional tort. That''s two steps above negligence and one step above reckless. Not every intentional tort is necessarily criminal, and finding someone criminally culpable requires a higher standard of proof. For example, physical hazing in a Scouting context is not a criminal offense in most jurisdictions. But a really bad case of physical hazing may well be an intentional tort, as well as a violation of BSA policies. The scouter must have desired to commit harm, or believed that harm was substantially certain to occur from his/her actions. That''s a darn sight different than "intentionally" taking an action that breaches a duty of care (ex. not making kids wear PFDs, etc.) which through a series of circumstances results in an accident. That would be ordinary negligence. Yah, yeh see... da whole thing makes more sense if yeh read it with a funny accent, eh? Beavah

Patrol Yells.... yeh gotta give ''em a reason to yell. Can''t have patrol yells until you have real patrol competition, otherwise it''s just fake. When yeh have real patrol competition, cheering is natural, and it takes very little for kids to start yellin''. Perhaps just da slightest nudge. Songs... seems like yeh put your finger on it, Gunny. Whose songs are they singin''? The adults'' songs? Or their own? Close as I can figure from watchin'', adults start belting out some of their old camp favorites assuming that''s what kids these days will like. To kids, that''s the equivalent of trying to get them to do a waltz at a rock concert. If they''re singin'' Metallica and Weird Al and the theme songs from SpongeBob and the Sopranos, then we adults should be singin'' Metallica and Weird Al and bellowin'' SpongeBob Squarepants right along with them, while doing our best Tony Soprano act. Kumbaya or some other old 1970s camp favorite ain''t goin'' to do it for ''em. Same deal with skits. Close as I can tell, on average the adult-typical scouting songs and skits are about 3 years too immature for the age bracket of Scouting kids, and not part of current kid culture. It''s usually an adult-run thing. Beavah

Yah, Eagle309. It''s tough bein'' a young SPL. But da problem is you giving talks. We give talks to explain or inspire. For misbehavior, we give consequences. You make space for your SPL to lead by being the "bad guy" and setting expectations and consequences. That way your young leader can be the "good guy" they turn to to help them meet expectations and have fun. No talks. Fail to listen to da SPL, bad happens. Nuthin'' personal, just the way it is. Think about it like a video game. Kids are great at learning not to feed the dragon if every time they feed the dragon they lose points. No need to be talked to. But you could talk to ''em all day about not feeding the dragon, and they''d keep doing it if it got ''em points or didn''t hurt. Beavah

Yah, kb6jra, you did good. You listened to and considered new ideas. You intended to pursue new ideas thoughtfully. You stepped in when someone went "rogue" and when you recognized a problem. You communicated well. Sometimes young ASM''s who haven''t had enough time in the real world get a bit carried away. This was quite a bit carried away. They need da school of hard knocks as a learnin'' experience. I''d say if the ASM was otherwise a good contributor, give it a couple weeks to cool off and then have coffee with him. Explain the bigger picture, and reinforce the lesson that "going over the boss''s head is a good way to make enemies and get fired" no matter what line of work you''re in. Feel it out. Maybe he gets it, is contrite, and could still be an asset if he apologizes all around. At least until the next time he gets carried away . Or, yah, maybe he''s still too immature to serve effectively as an ASM. You know the situation best. Make the call. Beavah

Hiya ladyleader. Your SE is off base. Yeh can certainly limit the number of boys you take in. The form is a membership application. IMO you also should limit the number you take in to the number that you can provide a strong program for. Nuthin'' worse than admitting everybody and losing a bunch because your leaders were overwhelmed and things got chaotic. Usually, when we lose a kid, we lose him forever. A waiting list or being directed to another pack is not the same as losing a kid. By keepin'' your size under control, you also make Scoutin'' stronger in your area. Lots of times, one strong Cubmaster or a strong group of parents provide a really positive program for some years. During those years, their recruiting can wipe out neighboring packs. Then when that CM or parent group moves on, the pack can''t keep up the pace and their membership falls. Because they''ve killed off other packs, though, the total scout membership in the area is now smaller than it was to begin with. Better to help build three fair-sized programs IMHO. Beavah

Yah, my experiences have been da same as VeniVidi, anarchist, and Eagledad. Seen some really ugly parent responses to youth leaders when it involved them or their little darlin''. Seen plenty of deliberate manipulation, too, that the youth leaders (who are trained by society to be obedient to adults) couldn''t handle well. If yer goin'' to go that way, set it up so that there''s registered leader supervision of those conversations. I agree with all da sides on the other matter. What Gern reports is not that uncommon, and probably parents with that attitude (and kids with those parents) aren''t going to stick with Scouting no matter what we do. But it''s still worth thinkin'' about and trying to do what we can to avoid the problem in the future. Lots of good suggestions there, in terms of makin'' sure PL''s and TG''s are the right sort and well trained and supervised. Having ASM''s present as "co-leaders" with the PL''s for the first couple of trips can really help. One other thing to try is to send prospective scout parents "homework" to do with their son before he joins. Simple stuff like making him clean pots after dinner, having him clean a bathroom or take a dump right after dad has used the bathroom (so he has to hold his nose like he will in a pit toilet ). Teach him how to dress himself in a tent or have him sleep in the backyard in a sleeping bag. Da simple things which might be "new" to a boy. In my experience it''s toughest for oldest boys, and especially for only boys. Ones that are used to havin'' big brothers around don''t have as many issues. Beavah

Yah, OK, DanKroh. After throwin'' the parents and docs in jail, if an FTM kid shows up and wants to participate in a Boy Scouting program, I think yeh welcome him. Can''t help the past, or the foolishness of adults who are into pushing the envelope to advance their own agenda at a kid''s expense. Gotta love the kid where he''s at, and make the best of it. Beavah P.S. Anybody know why my single quotes '' are all showing up as double quotes " ? Have they all decided that they''re really double quotes stuck in a single quote body, and Scouter Terry is helping them transition?

Although I cannot find it in my BSA literature, I am sure we were told at Basic Scout Leader Training and at Woodbadge that you must file a tour permit to be covered by BSA insurance. Yah, allangr, yeh got bad information from a poorly informed set of trainers who were ad libbing rather than following the training syllabus. If you have auto insurance, your auto insurance will still cover you if you speed, if you run a red light, if you fail to yield to oncoming traffic, and even if you are drunk. That''s why you have auto insurance. The point when you need auto insurance is when you made a mistake. Same deal with BSA insurance. The BSA makes a big promise to CO''s and volunteers. "We don''t want you to worry. If you volunteer for us, you should have no fear of lawsuits or other nonsense. We will be there for you." That''s a big part of our marketing to Chartered Orgs. and to volunteers. It''s important. Poorly informed trainers who pass along bad information like what you got do real harm to the organization. Our volunteers and CO''s get spooked enough about liability without some bunch of dunderheads addin'' to the confusion. Yeh have my permission to yell at them, eh? there is some detail on the insurance and licensing requirements that are part of the permit. Yah, troutmaster. BSA insurance is primary for all activities except for the riskiest one - driving a vehicle. For auto accidents, BSA insurance is excess coverage. Scouters'' individual auto insurance policies take the hit first, then BSA coverage kicks in if the auto insurance is exceeded. So BSA wants some baseline minimum coverage on each vehicle. That way, the BSA coverage won''t come into play for most ordinary car accidents, only something fairly big. Keeps da cost down, eh? Doesn''t mean they won''t cover if for some reason a scouter is uninsured, but it does help cost containment-wise. Beavah

''Round here it depends on the size of the program. Bigger units tend to have more fundraisin'' clout and longer histories, and tend to pay for all or part of trainin''. Pretty often they offer to pay, and the adult agrees to fund it him/herself or gives the troop a donation in excess of the cost. Of course, havin'' better trained leaders and a culture that encourages ongoin'' learning might be the reason they''re bigger units... Beavah

given that there are now cub scout age children transitioning Yah, OK, I don''t particularly want to hijack Dan''s thread. But I would want to see any parent or doc who allowed or promoted a cub-scout aged youth to "gender transition" to spend a long, long time behind bars. Beavah

Yah, ditto. I really wish parents would think about demands like these before makin'' ''em. "I want everyone to change what they''re doing to accommodate my son''s swim schedule." The paid school swim coach I''m sure isn''t entertaining any requests to adjust for a girl''s scout schedule, why should the volunteer leader be expected to do more than the person being paid? Anne, you can drive yourself nuts with trying to meet every family''s schedule requests. Set a time that works and stick with it, and don''t take any guff. As for communication, dat''s a harder thing, eh? The other thread on that I think people made a bunch of good points. Different families and people respond to different kinds of communication better. Some use email, some don''t; some listen to meeting announcements, some don''t; some read newsletters, some don''t. Not much you can do to change ''em either. So I''ve found that the most successful units do their best to deliver the same information multiple times in multiple formats. Time consumin'', but that time''s better spent if you''ve got it than fiddling with meeting start times. Beavah

If you''''re going to hike with them, the ideal option is 4 adults: Two can peel off to support any emergency, and the activity continues. Hefalumps and woozles! Can''t say I agree with KC here on the 4-adult minimum. Too many adults oft as not spoils the youth learnin'' experience. And I can''t imagine ever having the hike continue leaving an injured/emergency behind. Yeh want all hands on deck for an emergency. Those 14 year olds are going to be important for getting supplies or helping with a carry-out. Remember, no one-on-one is for youth protection. Two deep is for safety. It is OK when you have an emergency to split the two adults. That''s why there are two of ''em, eh? Never met a council yet that expected a tour permit for a MB session. If you''re counseling kids from multiple troops, I wonder which CC you''re supposed to get to sign . But back to the question: Be smart, Aquila. Consider the kids and the trail and the weather and make the call. I would think about "What happens if I (the adult) get hurt?" Twist an ankle, have a heart attack? Do you want the kids to be on their own dealing with that, unlikely as it might be? If a kid is hurt, are you certain that you''ve got good cell coverage or two strong kids who can be sent for help while you stay with the injured boy? On the flipside, there isn't any requirement that an adult has to be along at all. Boys are free to do their hikes on their own. Again, are the kids ready for that? Gotta use your judgment. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, F, I''m with da two owls, eh? I think "Loyal" means that we begin by assuming that Joe is an ordinary, good, intelligent, caring scout leader. Seems to me from the little bit he posted that he''s got kids going out and doing service on a holiday, informing parents of changing plans and securing parent permission, having fun with kids and staying alert and creative. He''s upholding expectations that kids who do hard work on service projects get the award, and kids who didn''t come out for service projects - well, they can wait for the next time. No reason to assume his council asks for a tour permit for such a trip. Ain''t no reason at all to assume that Joe as a fellow scouter is being unsafe. No reason to assume that because Joe takes kids paddlin'' on a pleasant local river one afternoon that it means next week he''ll be takin'' ''em skydiving. In fact, it seems downright discourteous and unneighborly to assume that. I think most of us feel an obligation to be Trustworthy, and that means bein'' honest about what the real purpose of Tour Permits are, and how they''re used (or not used) in most councils. It means being honest with our fellow volunteers about how BSA insurance coverage works, and how and when tort law applies. People having knowledge and understandin'' is a good thing. It helps them make informed, rational, and safe judgments. Beavah

Yah, Eamonn, my experience is da same as yours, in several councils. Tour permits are recorded by some very nice ladies who also run the scout shop. They are very friendly about handling all of us late-to-file guys because at most they scan to make sure we didn''t leave any lines blank. I''m sure any troop could write that they intended to shoot kids and still get approved. Lots of units just submit their entire roster of drivers for every event rather than try to figure out who''s really goin'' in advance. My current council like yours is one that gave up on the tour permit volume. Ours won''t event accept any tour permit for a destination within the council service area - somethin'' like 6,000 square miles. A few councils use local tour permits for travel to Canada because they''re so close. Practically I guess the only real use for Tour Permits is as a vague planning document to help new leaders out. It''s OK at that, eh? Points out SSD, SA, CPR requirements; reminds folks of G2SS and the Wilderness Use Policy; makes ''em at least think about two-deep, adequate supervision, and the risks of drivin''. Not bad. As a Commish, I''ve used ''em lots of times as and aide for helping inexperienced leaders work through the planning steps. Only downside is the urban legend stuff like what troutmaster posted, freakin'' out guys like Joe who are just trying to do something nice for a few hard-working kids after a service project. Beavah

Yah, wow. I thought I was old enough to see everything. But I ain''t never seen multiple loops around here. Gee, there''s been times where I could have worn blue, red, green, silver, and gold all together. A regular Joseph and his Technicolor Shoulder Tabs" Never did earn an orange Varsity tab, though. Pity. I''d encourage scouters the same as the others have said. One set of loops (and knots, and position patch) to match the activity or position they''re serving in at the time. If you''re wearin'' lots of hats get a few different shirts to go with them hats! If yeh only have one shirt, I recommend velcro patches and a pocket full of hot-swappable loops! But for youth, I''d never do anything but smile at any permutation that the youth dream up on their own and that they''re proud to wear. Yammerin'' about proper uniforming is the wrong way to respond to a lad who is proud of both his troop and his crew and wants to show it on his uniform in some way. Beavah

All this depends upon compliance with BSA safety rules. If you are out of compliance, you may be naked. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT CORRECT If everyone dutifully does everything right, then there is no liability. Insurance is there for when we do something wrong because that''s when we''re liable. Otherwise insurance would be useless. The BSA has an excellent reputation of defending its CO''s and adult leaders no matter what. It works hard to maintain that reputation. That reputation is very important to our ability to get CO''s to charter troops, and our ability to secure good adult leaders. It is a bad and completely false urban legend that the BSA will not defend its leaders when they screw up. It does damage to Scouting to repeat that urban legend. We follow G2SS and provide excellent safety on our trips because we care about kids. Good safety keeps adults and kids from harm. That''s the reason. That''s the only reason. With the exception of a very small set of exclusions on the master policy (ex. skydiving), insurance ain''t got nuthin'' to do with it. Beavah