Beavah

Yah, I''d first advise yeh relax and let the boy proceed at his own pace. If the physical or mental willingness to hike continues to be a problem, identify the trips where there''s a reasonable short cut/bail out option for him, and maybe let mom know that the other trips won''t work. You''ve found da baseline, now yeh gotta look at whether he''s able to make any progress. If he is an you can accommodate it, let him continue to progress at his own pace. He doesn''t have to stay with his age group. In fact, expecting him to may not be fair or may be too much pressure. Love him for who he is and how he grows. As advice, though, I wouldn''t put him at the front of da group. Best to have someone he can follow who can set a reasonable pace. Put him #2 or #3. Or split off a "scenic pace" from da "fast pace" group. Goal is to make him feel a part of things, eh? And encourage him to push himself a bit, without runnin'' over his emotional limits. Beavah

Do you want them to look like Scouts, or like the Bad News Bears Doing Scouts? If I remember the old movie right, da Bad News Bears were a little league team of misfits that couldn''t afford uniforms, but they dreamed big and worked hard and won the championship based on skill, teamwork, good humor, and fun. First movie of a long series of similar shows (like Mighty Ducks, etc.) where the team with heart and spirit is pitted against the well-uniformed, well-funded, and aggressively adult-led league champions. Given that choice, I guess I vote for da Bears, eh? Of course, I think da Bad News Bears even snuck a girl onto the team

Beavah, please explain your difference between well uniformed and strictly uniformed. When I say well uniformed, I mean the boys wear the complete correct uniform. I''''m interested in hearing your definitions. Yah, OK BA. By well uniformed, I mean the boys all voluntarily wear the BSA uniform for ceremonies and other places where it''s appropriate in a manner that is neat, fairly good-lookin'', and demonstrates their personal pride in being part of the organization. I don''t mind ''em all substituting olive BDU''s for Oscar Pants. I don''t mind all the guys who were really pround of goin'' on the last high adventure trek sewing a small custom patch on their sleeves instead of their right pocket. I don''t mind things not being sewn on quite straight. In fact, I look for such things as a sign that they''re having fun and have really "bought into" uniforming. By strictly uniformed, I mean brass-on-brass, every badge in place according to the insignia guide within a quarter inch or less, no individualization or customization at all, backpacking in full Oscars, and wearin'' those gawd-awful green and red fashion foul socks with those early-80''s too-much-leg shorts. That stuff only happens when an adult has taken charge and forgotten that uniforming is supposed to be fun kids program stuff. Beavah

The troops that are well uniformed are much more boy run than the one that isn''''t. Yah, BA. Must be that reading my random thoughts thing. I agree with you. I think troops that are well uniformed can be boy-run. I think the crossover point is troops that are strictly uniformed; that''s almost always adult-driven in my experience. Not a bad thing, like I said, just different use of time. B

Sometimes, we have to make a choice about what we are going to fight for actively, and what we will fight for simply with our own example ... or perhaps even decide to bypass because we know where we are with our resources. Yah, exactly. There''s no question that adults in a unit can enforce strict uniforming, eh? Might reduce the size of a unit a bit, or not, depending on the area and what other choices a boy has. Da question is more whether that''s the right way to go for a particular adult or unit. IMHO, the troops that are consistently in full uniform tend toward bein'' pretty adult-run. To be uniform, yeh have to have someone enforcin'' uniformity. Doesn''t mean they don''t have a good program, they often do. Just means that they chose to use their limited time differently, emphasizing uniform over some other things. I personally care more about the other things, so I wouldn''t choose to spend my efforts on uniforming. And I get a kick out of small "personalization" of uniforms, from the Untrainable patches on up. Shows personal investment in da uniform to make it your own. No big deal. But Oak has a point in that I would find it a bit discourteous for someone to imply I wasn''t doing Scouting right because I spent my time differently than they did, or enjoyed the occasional odd patch. We remember that in the real world when we''re in person, most of the time. In this here digital alternate reality, though, it sometimes gets forgotten. Fer some reason, there''s an odd delight in calling someone "wrong" anonymously. Scoutin'' volunteers are good people, by and large. No matter which methods they choose to prioritize time-wise, no matter whether they''re jovial or serious. They deserve our support, respect, and understandin''. Beavah

Yah... Hmmmmmm.... So, highcountry, as an idea, if yer goin'' to spend all that effort with peanut butter and such, why not jump to real Patrol Cooking? Seems like what you''re doin'' would be even more effective when one PL got the hint and had good food goin'' and the others were doing PB. Then the next campout maybe two patrols are cookin'' different things and comparing and bragging to each other about what they did, and presto - instant ongoing contest, patrol spirit, no need for adults to compare with because they have each other, etc. You know... Scouting! Now, having said that, yeh can''t go there unless you really know the SPL or the PL''s actually know how to plan meals, and the kids actually know how to cook. There''s probably a good chance that they just got one of them quick pencil signoffs rather than actually learnin'' the skill, eh? So before you go all Peanut Butter crazy, it''s your job to figure out if they really know how. If not, then it''s your job at your PLC/GreenBar sessions to teach ''em how. Help ''em with meal planning. Coach ''em. Give ''em ideas. That''s Scouting too... the SM trains the Patrol Leaders, eh? Beavah

Yah, here''s some old threads for yeh, Brotherhood: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=142147 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=143584 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=152302 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=152463 Ways of Thinking Sometimes it helps to think of the two different methods by thinking of examples. Traditional Patrols are very much like Hogwarts Houses in Harry Potter. You join one when you come in, and you stay in it forever, and it exists after you leave. You compete against other patrols for points & Quiddich cups. You are led by older Prefects and Team Captains in your house. Your patrol/house is your home. You eat in it and sleep in it. Older boys in your patrol show you their secret maps and such. Modern Patrols are very much like the Cub Scout grade-based program. You're a Wolf this year and a Bear next year. You stay with your same age group, and older instructors come into your den to teach and lead you. You advance on schedule with your group, by just doing your best. You don't compete with other dens. You might elect a Class President, but because you're all peers, that's mostly a popularity contest. The real leadership comes from others outside your group like the SPL or SM.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Which type does your unit use and why? I prefer traditional, because: * It''s natural for older, more experienced boys to be leaders (PL''s, etc.). They''re ready for it, they''re mature enough for it, it''s the right level of challenge. It isn''t natural for a new boy or even a 2nd year boy to be a leader. They''re still learning, they''re still at the maturity level where they want to be one of the gang and not "stand out". * It makes the PLC be a real panel of "equals" each of whom can contribute meaningfully. First and 2nd year PL''s really don''t have that same level of experience, so most of the organizational work falls on the SPL, which pushes things toward "troop method" rather than patrol method. * It "divides and conquers" the new guys - each young scout has several older brothers of different ages to look to as an example and learn from informally. TG''s in a "modern" unit are more like adults "teaching class" rather than teammates to follow. * Putting all of the new guys together in a NSP requires a particularly special kind of adult to be ASM-NSP. If yeh don''t have that kind of person, it''s a recipe for chaos and lost boys. * It''s the only way to have meaningful patrol competitions. * It''s safer, in that having a ratio of experienced:inexperienced scouts of 3:1 instead of 1:12 is a lot better. * It encourages proper use of advancement as part of regular activities, rather than Advancement Classes and rush to First Class. Have you done the other way? Yah, sure have. Tried it a bunch of ways when it first came out. Never could get it to work well, in terms of the outcomes we wanted for kids. Younger patrols needed a lot of adult/TG support, which only taught them to be adult led. No patrol spirit because competitions are meaningless between a team of 14 year olds and a team of 11 year olds, and because in this system patrols aren''t "permanent". They''re regularly "consolidated" at the upper levels. Any regrets or problems with they way it works for your unit? I think if yeh get a really big influx of new boys that can "swamp" the patrols for a bit, so yeh gotta watch that. It''s definitely more work for the youth leaders than hangin'' out in their own patrol, but that''s what we want, eh? Still, yeh gotta watch that it doesn''t become a baby-sitting chore for them. I think havin'' a Venture Patrol/PLC/Leadership Corps/etc. that does "advanced" stuff as a reward for the service leadership is a good thing to put in place. Beavah

Yah, LH, I know about Varsity Teams. They are a separately chartered unit, like a Venturing Crew, but for boys age 14-17 with a sports emphasis. Don''t have a SM; use a Team Coach. Wear orange tabs. Now there''s also Venture Patrols, which are an optional program element of Boy Scout Troops. But I have never heard of a Varsity Patrol.... which would be kinda like a Venture Patrol, only with a sports emphasis(?). Beavah

Good for you, highcountry. Left to their own devices, kids will stay in their comfort zone, eh? Why take a risk with something you might not like (or worse, might not be good at and look bad in front of your friends)? So yeh got to get them out. One good way to help break down the barriers is to introduce things during "regular" trips. On a car camping trip, take a small group off "backpacking" to a slightly cooler site. Bring a kayak on canoe trips and let the boys try it, show ''em some moves, etc. Take a few gym climbers to a local real-rock craig. Take your PLC boys for TLT somewhere that they do a cool new activity. I bet they talk about it, I bet it improves their confidence, and I bet it will show up on the calendar for the troop at some point. Beavah

What da heck is a varsity patrol? Venture patrol you mean? I've seen both, been a SM in both. There's challenges to both. Of the two, I firmly believe that "traditional" is the proper application of the Patrol Method, and leagues above a "modern" patrol for all the things I care about in Scouting... character, leadership, adventure, etc. Eagledad probably writes most eloquently about this, and I'm sure there's a whole raft of old threads on the topic, eh? So if yeh want, we can come back around to those general things, Brotherhood. But let's talk yer specifics instead. Yeh say that the older scouts aren't as good at mentoring the younger scouts as you would like. That's a problem that can be addressed. Let me ask some questions: 1) Is there any reason why they should mentor the younger ones? In other words, how good is your troop's use of the patrol method? Are there competitions, where if the younger ones don't know something, the whole patrol "loses" and the older boys "feel" it? Do patrols really camp and cook on their own, so that if the young ones don't learn how to do things, the older guys "feel" it? Do patrols get points for each boy who advances, so there's an incentive to help each other? Do the adults give recognition to older boys who are good mentors? 2) Mentoring isn't an automatic thing; it's learned. How is your troop teaching its older boy patrol leaders? What is your TLT program like, and is it ongoing? Are your troop adults good examples of caring and mentoring, or do they just hang out with their same-age adult buddies? Does mentoring and leadership really play into signoffs for POR's and Scout Spirit, or are those just quicky check-box signoffs? 3) How good are your older boys' skills, really?. All boys are reluctant to teach/mentor if they feel they're not sure of something or don't have a lot of confidence in what they're doing. People say "teaching is the best way to learn" but that's adult malarkey. Teachin' and leadin' is scary for kids. It's really stickin' your neck out. Not something to do unless you're really confident. So if your guys aren't there, they're going to stay in their comfort zones and avoid teachin' and leadin'. Overall, it seems like if yeh feel the young guys aren't getting enough attention, reducing the number of people who work with them (by putting them off in their own New Scout Playpen and assigning one or two sitters) isn't the way to go. Yah, sure, you might get rapid advancement on paper as the sitters whip through Advancement Classes, but yeh won't get the same kind of real growth that comes from being part of a group with older boys to watch and emulate. It's also really a bugger if yeh do things other than car camping, where you need those stronger, more capable older guys to keep the young ones happy and safe. Puttin' all your weakest guys together... yikes. Take a look at the accident rate in LDS troops. Venture Patrols (aka Senior Patrol aka Leadership Corps and apparently aka Varsity Patrol) in a traditional patrol structure are a pull-out group that does high-school-level more advanced activities. In some ways this is a reward for their work in leadership roles with the younger guys. But in some ways this is also training for them - building up their advanced skills so that they can demonstrate them in leading others. It's a good and perhaps important feature for a traditional program. Yah, but in most ways it's a cure for a different problem, eh? Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

The difference between the voucher approach and just letting people keep their taxes is the existence of a large bureacracy. Yah, OK. You''re goin'' to make even me sound like a liberal. K12 education in the U.S. costs somewhere between $6K and $10K per student as currently delivered. Are yeh ready to say that for anybody unwilling or unable to afford that, their kids don''t receive any formal education? ''cept maybe if they get a freewill donation scholarship for somewhere? Heck of a thing for the working poor, even though the quality of schooling they''re getting isn''t all that great. The real issue would be all the kids on the street during the day. I remember an old History of Education professor who would sometimes make an argument that the Bill of Rights needed a provision that "Congress shall make no law with respect to the establishment of Education, nor prohibiting the free pursuit thereof". Sounds like what you''re advocatin''. It would keep the government out of the indoctrination business. It would definitely cut down on the whole cottage industry of school-related lawsuits . Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... OK, highcountry. Welcome to da forums, eh? Might I suggest as you continue your scouting journey that you pick up some reading on the Patrol Method from such renowned Scouting Leaders as Green Bar Bill Hillcourt? The shortcomings of the whole-troop method you describe are pretty much the shortcomings you describe . It's a lot of adult level work and coordination that takes up your time and the kids'. I've been in and seen troops where the SM doesn''t worry a single neuron about campout meals, because that's the job of the Patrol Leaders. Yah, and da Patrol Leader knows it's his job, and it's really not a big job that requires a lot of prior coordination, so he gets it done on his own. Easily. In the process, the PL learns responsibility and leadership, and the patrol members see responsibility and leadership in a youth. Work becomes cool, teamwork becomes normal, and cooking is not a chore. You're workin' way too hard, mate. Scoutin' is more fun than that. Beavah (edited to kill the double quotes...)(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Please don''t give ''em any ideas! A costume regulation??? Nope, CubScoutMom, no BSA costume regulations. Even dressing up as the military with toy weapons is fine for Halloween. Real weapons too, I suppose - I can imagine some re-enactor types where a webelos age boy was dressed in period garb with some kind of unloaded flintlock or tomahawk or bayonette. Only limits are the limits that the Cubmaster sets for normal good taste and decency, or that the Chartered Organization sets like scoutldr describes. Or of course what a CubScoutMom sets for her own cub scout . Beavah

Not a campout goes by that some parent/driver can''''t amke it and we have to beg for a fill in and match up scouts to seat belts, then after that we have to amend the TP and refax and get a refax back. Oh fer cryin'' out loud. That is not what is supposed to happen. It''s supposed to be a helpful process, not some bizarre exercise in bureaucracy. Minor changes don''t require a new permit. If there''s an issue, just staple your complete list of drivers/cars to the back of every permit and make sure you don''t use anybody not on the list. Beavah

Yah, scoutldr... I might agree, eh? That libertarian approach, same as packsaddle''s, means no "welfare schooling". No "public" taxpayer-supported schools. Everybody pays to have their kids get an education, and they pay for the level of education they want. Problem is whether you really want lots of uneducated kids in society because they come from families where parents can''t afford to pay. That''d at least be the short-term problem as you dismantled welfare schooling and parents got used to payin'' for education again. But if you''re willing to support "public" welfare schooling with tax dollars, I don''t necessarily see the downside to offering that same dollar amount as a scholarship to go to any school. What''s the difference to the taxpayer - they''re paying $10K per year per kid for public school in Detroit, why not let the parents choose a school and give that same $10K to that school of choice? Taxpayer is paying the same, but the results might be better. Can''t get much worse than Detroit, from Lisabobs description. That''s what we do for colleges, eh? You can take your Federal scholarship or student loan to University of Wisconsin or to Northwestern or Notre Dame or wherever you want. Government, private, and parochial all receivin'' tax dollars to educate kids. And all doing a good job, because if they don''t, the kids will go somewhere else. Beavah

So, the answer is to abandon all the publicly funded facilities that have accumulated over the years because we as a people cant make the system work? Yah, well, I hear yeh. But what''s the alternative? Keep tryin'' reform and getting the same outcome, while another generation of kids loses? Problem is that the current system eats a lot of resources providing poor service, and traps a lot of kids. Bigger problem is probably that a lot of lobbies have gotten comfortable with the dough - school politicians, administrators, teachers'' unions. And there''s a lot of "faith rhetoric" used to whip ''em up and prevent reform by those who "believe" in public education. Our education delivery system is identical to the old Soviet economic model, eh? How successful were they at reforming the Party from within to provide better service to the Proletariat? I''m not really a voucher proponent and I agree with Hunt that at least in the short term the poor and dysfunctional will be the last left behind - but the poor are left behind now, eh? And I don''t think there''s ever anything the government can do about the dysfunctional, no matter how much we''re willing to curtail freedoms so as to play "Big Brother." So da question is what can be done to reform the system that breaks the stranglehold of entrenched "interests?" Parental choice seems like a candidate. But if it is, the transition is goin'' to be disruptive. There''s a lot of kids ready to flee the public system if given a chance. ----- Lisa''bob, are you tellin'' me that the population of Detroit has actually declined by 50% in the last ten years?? Holy Exodus batman! That really is unbelievable. Gotta feel for yeh folks in Michigan. Beavah

Yah, Philmont''s a great experience, especially if your troop isn''t familiar enough with backpacking to do its own thing. There is a whole "mystique" and a long history of Scouting that''s hard to beat. Yer costs are astonishin'', though! How much of that is on-the-road sightseeing and lodging? Seems like as a troop contingent you should be able to get by for half that cost. Beavah

Yah, I''m confused, eh? Anything you can cook at home you can cook on a canoe outing. Only thing necessary is a small cooler if yeh want fresh meats (or, alternately, freeze the meat and pack it in light insulation if you''re only dealing with one day). So the issue for young guys is simplicity. Just depends on what they know about cooking. Any pasta meal. Any soup. Stir fry. Any quicky meat fry (burgers, chicken breast burgers, fry steak). Stove-top stuffing. Potato perl mashed potatoes. Hash browns, bacon & eggs, eggs benedict (the powdered Hollendaise sauces work well), pancakes, omlettes, etc. Instant pudding or any of the instant pudding desserts like oreo pie or cheesecake (bag and submerge in river to chill). Cakes and cookies... if yeh don''t want to Dutch oven or reflector oven bake them, you can fry or scramble the batter and they still will taste just fine. Lunches tend to be toughest, but the old standby of sandwich fixin''s is OK. I''d plan on two smaller snacks, too. Also really easy to boil hotdogs for a quick, warm meal. Beavah

Last I heard, Lisa''bob, the Detroit Public Schools have gone from 200,000 to 100,000 students in the last ten years or so. That''s half of the students in that failin'' district getting a positive option that they didn''t have before. Sure sounds like it''s goin'' away, eh? If they actually allowed school choice within the city without transportation problems it might go even faster. Don''t know much about Cleveland. Milwaukee is doin'' OK. Lots of interest in startup schools because of voucher availability... 50+ applications a year. Lots of those startups not that great, but about a quarter each year pretty sound. Some oversight is clearly needed. Beavah

Yah, dat''s the idea, OGE. Just like the pizza parlor that serves lousy pizza. Rather than tryin'' to lobby the board and the CEO and the pizza makers union, you just let people go to a different pizza shop. I don''t know whether I agree with it in the end, really. But yeh have to admit, most of those districts that "suck" have sucked for decades. They''ve been the subject of school reform after school reform and takeovers and changes in law and many, many school board elections and teachers'' union contracts. Seems like that avenue of internal reform has been tried, eh? Beavah

I would like to point out that I am typing in a style reiminiscient of Data on Star Trek: TNG, not because Star Trek is a religion, but because I am avoiding the use of apostrophies Yah, I remember seeing an advertisement from a Pacific Northwest hospital looking for a part-time translator for Klingon. Seems like a number of the mentally ill who show up in the hospital insist on speaking Klingon. I am with GA and St. Paul. If Jesus did not really rise from the dead, then Christianity is poppycock and Christians are to be pitied in the same way as delusional Klingons. The claims of religions are that they really know the makeup of the universe as it relates to human interactions with a real, non-psychological deity or deities. If Jesus really did rise from the dead, then we all should pity Merlyn Ethically, though, I am most concerned about cloning. It seems that Scouter Terry has developed an efficient way of cloning apostrophe embryos (stem cells for punctuation?), and is upsetting the natural balance. Beavah

it seems to me that you gradually choke the worst schools, and hurt the neediest children with the least parental support the most. As opposed to what we''re doin'' now, which is hurtin'' all kids who live in economically poor areas the worst, and giving them and their parents no way out. I always love da argument, though... that "those people" aren''t smart enough/involved enough/caring enough about their children to be entrusted with choice. Only wealthy folk can handle that. Beavah

Yah, it''s a bit early, eh? Usually I''d advise a couple of years of participatin'' as an ASM before you go for the bigger hat. I''d want to know what was up with the current SM, and why the committee wanted to go with an inexperienced adult (albeit a trained one). Before you take a job, make sure you know the backstory you''re goin'' to be walkin'' in on. But there''s always the chance that someone worse will get the job Ask your district for the names and contact information for the three best troops in your district that have a size similar to your son''s troop. Then go buy those SM''s lunch. Then go visit a meeting and an outing. Find one of ''em who seems like a close fit for you personality-wise, and who runs a program that''s a good fit for what you want to accomplish. If yeh do decide to take the big hat, make a standing appointment for lunch to talk scouting every month or two with this "mentor." Second, sit with the CC and outline what exactly you want from da committee. No time to negotiate like the present. Get ''em to commit while they''re trying to recruit you - pay for additional outdoor skills training, set length of term, expectations for support. Get ''em all on the same page before you get goin''. Beavah

Yeh make a report to the department of child welfare because you have reasonable suspicion to believe that the child is in an unsafe environment, and you notify your SE of same. Let da people who handle these things professionally deal with it. In the meantime, you do what you can for the kid in your program. Beavah