Beavah

Yah, I think da gradual information leak permits me to pass along a "more than rumor" that folks can expect a major uniform change in the not too distant future. As many know, U.S. textile supplier difficulties and other issues have helped spur an internal "reflection" and re-think of the modern BSA uniform, beginning with the introduction of the Switchback pants and Thorlo socks (and with the gradual discontinuation of the old pants & socks as stocks are depleted). I think it''s safe to say that a new uniform shirt will reflect the same move toward functional and modern outdoor-wear that the Switchbacks started. No more shoulder loops gettin'' in the way of backpacks, and a greatly reduced patch set - in keeping with the emphasis on functional outdoor wear rather than courtly decoration. Right direction, IMO. Beavah

Yah, we got word more than a year ago about those (and some other) edits in ACP&P. No surprises, really, either in da poor wording or the intent. Just describes what has been National Advancement''s operatin'' procedures for a few years now: "We''re not interested in upholding standards in the face of a formal contest." So it''s up to the good scouts and scouters and organizations to do their best to use Advancement to build character, without any particular support from the BSA beyond the published materials (which is all they''re really interested in bein'' involved in or providin''). No real change, either in practice or in policy. Yeh have to distinguish between the operating procedures of the National Advancement folks and real policies of the National Council. Those aren''t the same thing, eh? Da operating procedures are just disappointin'' from a program perspective because of the way it will further advance the helicopter parent/grade inflation version of Scouting, and further weaken the movement. Beavah

OK, It''s past Friday so it''s time to open up this thread for suggestions and comments. O'' course, highcountry can keep givin'' us information, too! Now, like any good Commissioner, I''d ask respondents to begin by identifying and praising strengths. It''s easy and cheap to find errors and weaknesses in a nitpicky way. Start by buildin'' a relationship, and by helpin'' highcountry see where he''s got some good things in place, or some internal resources to use. Spend your first reply, or at least the first half of your reply helping him to see fun and strengths to build from. That''s the first step to gearin'' up for continued improvement. Our goal for da second bit is to help him find the one or two most important things to work on next, and then figure some suggestions for how to do that, preferably by building on his troop''s strengths. Beavah

Yah, bowhunt.... Yeh don''t say how old your new PL''s/APL''s are, eh? But thanks for da description of your older boys. I''m with EagleDad here. I''d pull your lunkhead older boys "up and out of the way" into a Venture Patrol temporarily if yeh can''t co-opt them. They''ll only undermine yeh otherwise. Da alternative is to have appointed the best older boys as PL''s in each patrol, and use the TLT session as a high-adventury advanced stuff that appeals to the older guys. If you''d have asked first, I would have suggested this way. Do it Navy style - identify the real leaders and give ''em real responsibilty .

Yah, I understand Eamonn thinkin'' it''s about requirements. He''s right about the rank. I think I disagree, though, about that bein'' da answer for KC''s question. I think it''s about character and personal growth. I think yeh look at the individual case, talk to the lad and the parents, and look carefully at your resources da way anarchist suggests. And yeh make your best judgment. Having watched this a lot, I have this observation: If a boy is coming back in order to get Eagle, then it''s not worth it for the troop or for him. You''ll almost certainly fail in the mission of building character. Just ain''t enough time to get da lad and his parents past the selfishness bit of "getting" an award by imposin'' on others. Takes time to get back in da habit of a life of service and leadership that patch is supposed to represent. If a boy is coming back in order to be involved again in Scouting, then it''s worth considerin'' welcoming him back. You''ve got a good chance at success in the mission of building character - and renewing friendships, and developing leadership skills and perhaps a long term service to Scouting. Rank, Eagle or otherwise, shouldn''t even really come up. Maybe there''ll be a chance of him doin'' enough to deserve the Eagle rank, but dat''s really secondary and down the road a bit. He should be returning to Scouting for Scouting''s sake - for what he can learn, and what he can give... not for what he can get. Beavah

What does active really mean? Should the lack of any active participation for two or three years affect the leader''''s approval, or should he be expected to show the activity and leadership more currently? You ask good questions, troutmaster. But they''re questions yeh have to answer for your program. In what you want boys to learn, do you include real (i.e. current) active participation as a sign of loyalty? For your CO''s purpose in running a youth program, does the Organization believe that its Highest Award should go to boys who other boys within the program can immediately recognize as exemplary by their current activity, and therefore worthy of recognition? For the Advancement Program people in da BSA, they don''t care, eh? Their goal is not to build young men of good character. Their goal is to sell program resources to CO''s with a minimum of fuss and controversy. So from their perspective, there is nothing to be gained by not giving out an award when one is asked for by any party. Some awards are given to recognize past work. The Nobel Prize is one, where an outside group gives an award to someone for achievements already done, not current. Some awards are given to recognize current work and participation in a group, like a varsity letter. I think in terms of character-building, scout ranks are meant to be more like the latter than the former (otherwise we''d give out Eagle to boys who were valedictorians of good character, regardless of whether they''d ever been scouts). But don''t expect da BSA as materials provider to do your job for you in terms of building character and servin'' your CO''s mission. If you feel a lad who has been inactive for a year is not an example of a team player, then it''s your job to drop his registration from the team. And if yeh don''t feel that coming back to the program right before you turn 18 just to get an award for yourself is a worthy example of character, then just say "no." It''s a membership application. No need to accept it, eh? Beavah

And one more... Tell us a bit about your vision, and, if there is one, da vision of your CO. At the end of the day, as a result of your program, what do you want to see each boy be able to do / live / believe on his own, without help or outside coaching? B

Thanks highcountry. Just a few follow-ups. What are your particular outdoor interests/skills? Like water more than mountains? Like skiing a lot, etc.? How about your other ASMs. Tell us a bit about your current committee. On da surface, it seems like you are developing a good feel and plan for program, and a good feel for the needs and character of each kid. Tell us a bit about the skills/interest/relationships/levels of commitment of your non-program staff. Treasurer? Quartermaster? What does your fundraising look like?

Yah, eghiglie. Yeh gotta wonder if they just got suspended by the old troop, eh? You've got a brand new troop that's just gettin'' off to a fine start, and has become a happy home for some lads who were bullied in their previous Scouting experience. Da reason being that weak adult leaders couldn't get off their duff and deal with a serious issue. Never saw it??! That's the weakest adult excuse for not followin' up I've ever heard. Don't be one of 'em, eh? Protect your new-born unit. New units need some space to grow without dealin' with this kind of youth and parent problem. In a bigger, well-established unit yeh might try a closely supervised probation, but I wouldn't here. Just say "no." "I'm sorry, we've discussed it with our committee and CO, and we don't feel like we could provide the Scouting environment your family needs at this time. Thank you for your interest. We'd be happy to refer you to some other units in the area." That decision is final. Whether we're talking youth members or adult volunteers, it's a membership application, not an entitlement. It's your unit's job to evaluate each application and make a decision that's in the best interest of your program - especially adult applications, but also youth. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Highcountry, Can yeh tell us a bit about the makeup of the boys? How many scouts of different ages & ranks? Who are those 11 inactive boys? What are the youth leaders like (PL''s, SPL, etc.)? How good are the boys'' individual skills? On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being "Paperwork Advancement Mill" and 1 being "Every boy is retested 5 times and knows everything cold", where is your troop? Other than your former CC from hell, what''s your adult staff like? Any good ASMs? How about da Committee? COR?

Yah, so our new member highcountry has been describin'' his challenges with the troop he recently inherited. His is a good example of how all kids and all programs start from someplace, and how the path to improvement from that someplace is going to be different. "Full" use of any one method may take a back seat for now, while the highest priority things get worked on. So if highcountry is up for it, it might be fun if we helped him Troubleshoot, eh? This is a good example of da life of a good Commissioner. Help him identify what da most important things are, what the next small steps are, and give him the tools to take the next small steps while keepin'' his enthusiasm up for the Ultimate Goal. From now through Friday, October 5, only data gathering is allowed. Nobody can give worthwhile advice until after they''ve gathered enough data to get a real feel for what''s goin'' on. So from now through Friday, I request those wishin'' to play on this thread only ask questions of highcountry about his program. Starting Saturday, hopefully we''ll have enough data that we can help him as he prioritizes and start givin'' him ideas. Here''s what he gave us so far: * We get about a dozen to 15 on most campouts. (We have 38 in the troop, with 27 active and 4 patrols of about 7 scouts each) * Last weekend we went to Camporree and origianlly had 12 scouts signed up, 6 dropped but 3 new names were added for a final show of 9 scouts. The numbers of scouts by patrol changed entirely from where we started to what ended up showing up. Had we planned to cook as patrols origianlly we would have been way off the mark when we ended up going to the event. (Not enough food for the large patrol, way too much for the patrol that ended up with only one scout showing.) * The boys worked in shifts as one patrol sort of and they produced the meal for the most part...adult help was required as we were cooking in 50+ mph sustained winds in a dusty field). * As I noted earlier, the boys continue to see life as adults doing things for them as reinforced by parents and somehat by previous troop methods. I am trying to improve decision making and responsibility, independence and skills and one way is through meals. I am focusing on the proper planning of a menu, portions, nutrition and quantites, proper cooking methods and coordinating the production of a meal. If I do so by one patrol making a portion of the meal, patrol b making the second course etc I am achieving far more than what I inherited. I can ahve the ASM shop for the trip and if some boys drop and others add in, I am not going to stress about the patrol cooking method. It is far better than adults simply running everyting. It is a far advanced state to teh way things happened when I took over. part of the problem was that the CC from down below that we got rid of came on campouts and would not let the boys cook, or plan the meal. She would just go and shop and start cooking and the boys would run off and play. This prolonged my ability to even get teh boys started in being any part of the meal process. Patrol ccoking is way to far off for me to even dream about implemetning and is way too much work to be practicle for us, it is just not going to happen. I cannot get teh scouts to even do patrol meetings other than ones included within troop meetings as the previous SM had the same problems. parents and scouts alike feel that returning email and voicemail is optional and i ghet maybe 5% repsonse to either. The excuse of we are too busy seems to be adequate response and they carry on with their lives. there is no way I am ever going to get tehm to shop as patrols, to make that as a goal is a waste of my time, I may as well ask each patrol to provide me a cure for cancer.

Yah, Eamonn, but you''re right, eh? Cows do moo in different languages! Animal Sounds by Geoffrey Barto http://gbarto.com/languages/animasounds.html We''ve all heard about French and German. We''ve also seen cartoons about cats speaking dog and vice-versa. But there''s another dimension! French cats and English cats don''t talk the same way either. Languages aren''t just about speaking. They''re also about hearing. When you hear something, what your mind registers depends on how your language divides up sounds. This is why it''s hard to learn to understand a new language. You may know the grammar, the syntax, the vocabulary. But the sounds are another story. The language may have sounds that to you are identical but within it are completely different. Or it may not distinguish between sounds that to you are completely separate. One of the places where the differences in sound sets among languages comes through is in the way different languages represent animal sounds. Those who read the funny papers may have an inkling of this from Hagar the Horrible, in which Helga''s duck says "kvack" and Hagar''s dog says "voof" sometimes. But the authors weren''t just making up a funny joke when they started using this gag. They were revealing something that those who take language study seriously have come up against for ages. If you''re an American who wants to communicate the idea of a cat to someone who doesn''t speak English, what do you say? "Meow," of course. And it will usually work. The French say, "miaule," the Italians, "miao," the Greeks "niaou," the Chinese "miao," and so on. Most languages have pretty broad agreement on what cats sound like and your American "meow" will get the point across (don''t try "mew," it''s not quite so widely acknowledged). Man''s best friend, the dog, is trickier. Let''s look at what barking translates into. We know that in English there are several possiblities: "arf," "woof," "bow wow," "ruff." "Woof will probably get you the farthest. It''s kind of like the Dutch "woef," the French "vaf vaf," the Icelandic "voff" and the Norwegian "voff." "Woof" and "bow wow" seem to run together in other languages: There''s the French "ouah ouah," the German "wau wau" (also "wuff wuff"), the Italian "bau bau," the Polish "hau hau" and the Brazilian "au au." On the other hand, the Albanian "ham ham," the Arabic "haw haw" and the Chinese "wang wang" (also the Thai "hoang hoang") may seem completely... foreign... to you. So if you''re studying a foreign language and you''re not sure you''re getting the pronunciation right, don''t feel bad. Even cats and dogs don''t know the right way to mewl or bark when they go overseas. [Da Georgetown site is down, but yeh can see different languages animal noises at http://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/Personal/dabbott/animal.html] A German-speaking Swiss cow goes "mmuuhh" and a French-speaking Swiss cow goes "meuh". Beavah

Now this is an interestin'' question, eh? Generally, I too agree with SR540. But then we have that much-debated, somewhat odd advice from National Advancement, which says that a boy who isn''t doing the job of SPL should be removed before serving for a full 6 months. Seems like under that kind of system, da kids are right, eh? They should have the ability to remove the SPL forthwith. Or, to paraphrase an old document "And whenever any government becomes destructive of its just ends, it is the right of the People to Alter or to Abolish it." Beavah

The BSA has standards which can''t be changed. Yah, dat''s true, eh? The Baking Society of America has standards for a published "Uniform Standard Cake" that only they can change. They own that standard. It''s an OK standard recipe for beginners, eh? Boys and adults can''t vote to change the Baking Society''s cake standard. But every time they bake a cake, they can choose how to do it for themselves. If they''re missing ingredients, they can substitute on the fly. If they really like Oreo cookies, they can make an Oreo topping instead of a chocolate one. If they don''t have an electric mixer, they can try to hand mix. The Baking Society doesn''t care. Fact is, they even get some good ideas for updating the Standard Recipe from their members in the field who experiment. Indeed they measure their success as the Baking Society of America not by how close to the Standard Cake people are getting, but by how many members they have doing any kind of baking at all. In fact, they recently started a whole Venturous Baking division where their members can choose to bake whatever they like. And believe it or not, da Baking Society of America even has a number of genuine Pastry Chefs on its national committees. ----------- Gunny, I would imagine that if you''re havin'' trouble getting your Standard Cake to rise, it is often a combination of Baking Powder and binder. Now there''s some that say you should just Beat It a lot more as the adult cook. And that can help a little bit, for a short time. But I don''t think that''s the way to go. Baking Powder is anything that gets a fun "rise" out of your Scouts. Your chef recognizing them for being in uniform occasionally can work. I would think some other things that are personal - like doing up some "homebrew" troop patches for events would work well. Make up a six-segment right-pocket patch in-house, one segment for competence in each of 6 Adventure Sports. Make up a Mud Campout Survivor patch. Help ''em make the connection between activity and personal growth and success ---> Uniform piece as a Symbol. That has to be personal. Binder is like egg in a cake. It''s what holds it all together. What holds your guys together? How are your patrols? Is there good competition? Do they feel about their patrols the way Harry, Ron, and Hermione feel about Gryffindor? A good cake has to have somethin'' binding it together, so that the Baking Soda can allow it to rise without collapsing. Stronger patrols and more patrol competition might be da ticket. Beavah

That''s partly true, but the uniform is more than a set of clothes...It is a symbol of the boy''s commitment to Scouting - his acceptance of Scouting''''s ideals and willingness to live by them. Yah, it can be that. We hope it becomes that, eh? That''s the real uniform method - the one that''s worn in the heart and not on the body. Now I agree with Eagledad, we gotta ask ourselves "What is the uniform a symbol of to this boy in front of us?" Not to the adults, not to a part-time book editor in Irving. To this boy. Making the boy put on clothes because adults are gay and like queer-looking socks does not get the lad to accepting a shirt as a Symbol of Brotherhood and Ideals. What is the meaning of the uniform to the boy? If it''s not yet a symbol of Brotherhood and Ideals, then we''ve got work to do, eh? And that work is probably a lot harder than making a boy wear the right pants on threat of expulsion. Boys get to choose what symbols are most meaningful to them. It ain''t something we can demand as adults. Which is why if we want to use the real Uniform Method, the one that''s meaningful instead of a party costume, it takes time and effort with each boy. And it ain''t ever going to be perfect. Beavah

The Methods aren't tools to pick and choose from. The are ingredients for the program, as in a cake. You can try to make a cake without all the ingredients, but is it going to be as good as cake made with all of them? Yah, this I think was the most insightful comment of this thread, eh? Once upon a time there was a guy named Bob. Bob was new to making cakes, so he went out and bought the Baker Society of America's Uniform Cake Recipe. This was perfect! In two pages of detailed instructions with enumerated ingredients, Bob only had to Follow The Recipe in order to come up with a good-tasting cake. It took him a few tries and some training because there were parts of the Recipe he just didn't understand, but he eventually came up with a tasty cake. Bob became a Believer. Bob shared his great depth of cake knowledge with all and sundry. He would occasionally get replies back from places like Leadville, CO (high altitude) or Tucson, AZ (low humidity) that his cake recipe didn't work right there and they found that adjusting the ingredients produced better results. Bob would grow upset and say that they just didn't understand cake baking, and if they would only be Obedient and Follow the Recipe then they would get the same results as him because he always got them. Then he started running into all kinds of other cake bakers. Some of them would actually substitute ingredients like egg whites for whole egg or whole flour for bleached white flour, claiming that it was healthier of all things! Didn't they know that the Baking Society of America had already spent years and years figuring out what a cake should be? Then there were those folks who would add or subtract ingredients despite the warnings in the recipe. They would add pudding or chocolate chips or a touch of mint extract and leave out vanilla. Adding to the recipe??! Experimentation is BAD! It might yield mixed results! And sure enough, the experimenters had failures. But the nerve of them. They also claimed to have successes. They actually felt that some of their cakes tasted better than his! And they would prattle on about how cake baking was about the Aims of good taste, and the fun of learning, rather than the recipe used. Then old-timers would jump in and talk about all the different Standard Recipes the Baking Society of America had put out over the years, and how they still used some of the old ones! Worst of all were the self-proclaimed "experts" that called themselves "pastry chefs". They not only didn't use The Recipe, they didn't use any recipe at all! Instead, they would grab ingredients seemingly on a whim and whip them together to make different cakes. Not just one cake, all kinds of different cakes for different circumstances. Infuratingly, they would condescend to Bob, and try in their highfalutin' ways to explain things like gluten content, proper viscosity and moisture, and thermodynamics of baking. One even had the nerve to tell him that his oven must be running a bit hot, and that his cake would be better if he baked it at 25 degrees cooler on his dial. The nerve! To claim they could tell by looking at the outcomes that the Recipe should be adjusted! Besides, how could they claim that all these different roll-your-own things were even cakes? When he wanted cake, he wanted the standard Baking Society of America cake cooked at the Baking Society of America Temperature Setting. That's all anyone should want. That's what we agreed cake should be. He wrote to the Baking Society of America, but they refused to kick all the self-proclaimed "pastry chefs" and other experimenters out of the Society. In fact, they took no action at all. Some of those self-proclaimed pastry chefs even claimed to have National-level contacts within the Baking Society of America, but he didn't believe that. Despite Bob's warnings, the BSA even started offering a lightweight, zip-off mocha chocolate option as part of the Standard Cake Recipe. He admitted he and his kids liked the Mocha option, but not too loudly - that would mean that all those self-proclaimed pastry chefs who had been making that modification for years actually might be right. Bob was Trustworthy and Loyal and Obedient. He would make sure that anyone who ate a cake around him only got the Standard BSA Recipe. Anybody who wanted something else could go somewhere else. ------ Recipes have an important place, especially for beginners. They're a startin' point, and a reference point. For me, I want Scouters and Scouts to experiment beyond da recipes, though. Mix in peanut butter. Try different frosting. Add strawberries, substitute cherries, try mixin' in jelly beans. Even take a look at what foreign pastry chefs are doin', eh? That will make for some really ugly cakes sometimes. And for a few great ones. And maybe a few that work better for one particular group, or location, or a boy with special dietary needs. Along the way, it will give kids insight on what it takes to develop expertise - a real appreciate for depth of knowledge over rote recipes. Does everybody need to be a Pastry Chef? Nah. Recipes are good things, especially for something fairly unimportant that we only do occasionally. But they're just a tool, eh? They are the beginning, not the end. Beavah [edited for replicant quotes](This message has been edited by Beavah)

The minute a new boy walks into a troop meeting, he will see what is expected of him with regard to uniforming. Yah, but yeh can apply that to any other method, eh? A boy shouldn''t see slipshod youth leadership, so only perfect youth leaders are allowed by the adults. A boy shouldn''t see slipshod Advancement so he knows what''s expected of him and all dat. Must make First Class First Year, Must Make Eagle by 14. Adults need to demonstrate their leadership and insist on Advancement, eh? A boy shouldn''t see slipshod Outdoors, so the Adults better run it, eh? and on and on... Uniform Method is about more than just clothing. I think that''s where some adults get confused. In fact, just insisting on boys wearing conforming clothing is a poor use of Uniform Method. Uniforming, like Advancement and other methods is only successful when it reflects what has become internal to a boy, not what he wears. Uniforming method reaches its height when a lad identifies himself as part of the Scouting Movement, and greets fellow Scouts as brothers (& sisters), no matter what their nation, background, wealth, race, creed, or clothing. When gettin'' ready for Scouting means pride in gettin'' ready for adventure with a band of comrades. If we insist on conforming clothing, but don''t get to that internal view of fellow scouts as our brothers and sisters (no matter what they wear) then I think we''ve failed at Uniform Method. I think dat''s the heart of the critique of adult uniform hang ups I share with EagleDad. Lookin'' down on others for not havin'' perfect clothing is the opposite of the true Uniform Method. Beavah

Yah, OK, I''ll bite, eh? I know a local Catholic troop that doesn''t do too much with the Oath and Law beyond what you describe, eh? But they do have regular prayer at meetings, and they do live by a fine set of Values, both the Adults and da kids. Have they failed to implement the Ideals method because they didn''t adhere to da BSA''s form, or have they succeeded in the Ideals Method because they live by fine ideals? Da same can apply to any of the Methods, eh? I love to see troops doing High Adventure Outdoors every year. But in a heck of a lot of cases a troop gets by on car and cabin campin'', and maybe gets to Philmont once every 6 years in the lottery. Have they failed to use Outdoors Method because they don''t run 4 weeks of high adventure a year? Does the 8-boy troop fail in their scouting because they don''t have enough boys for two patrols, and have to run "troop method"? Does a troop that doesn''t get every kid to Eagle fail in fully using Advancement Method? Some of da best youth-led troops around here don''t do Camporees. Are they bad because they don''t do Camporees, or are they good because their youth get to decide on da program? Methods are tools. We use ''em as we need ''em to accomplish our goals. It is not a virtue to say "I used every tool in my toolbox fully" if in order to do it yeh used a hammer to crack an egg or a chainsaw to pound a nail. We don''t use tools just to use tools. Virtue is in whether we used each tool appropriately, and with enough skill to build something worthwhile. Beavah

Yah, Gunny... Brent gives yeh some good thoughts, so let me join in, too. I think yeh gotta ask yourself "Is this the Hill to Die On?" All good troops are constantly figurin'' out (with both their youth and adult leaders) how to get better. Where are we at, where do we want to be, and what is da next step to get there? Better Patrol Method. Better Outdoor Program. Better Adult Association. More experienced adults. Better Youth Leadership Training and preparation. Better emphasis on Values. Better Uniforming. Better use of Advancement. Better Personal Growth.... and other technical things, eh, like Better Recruiting and Better managing of kid behaviors and better support for our ADHD kids and better first aid skills and more work on Safety. It might be that from where your troop is at, uniforming is da next step toward where you want to be. Or it might be that it''s down the list, and workin'' on building Patrol Method is more important. Or something else. All change is going to meet resistance. You''re goin'' to get flak about Uniforming and you''re going to get flak about Patrol Method. If you try to do too much at once you''ll burn out or get run out. Some individual things are worth havin'' a shootout over, but shootouts leave bodies on the ground, and as oft as not those are kids'' bodies lyin'' there after the adults are done. Choose your fights. If uniforming ain''t the next step for your program, then don''t let it become the distraction that sinks you. Spend your capital on what''s goin'' to matter most. If uniforming is the next step for your troop, then by all means address it. I''d just suggest flanking maneuvers rather than Brent''s frontal assault. Fewer bodies at the end of the day. Beavah

My son: having a great start to the school year, chose to run for PL again (and got elected) despite swearing he wouldn''''t ever do that again after his first stint last year, really maturing and generally making me proud of what a fine young man he is becoming. [APPLAUSE]. Hey, that''s great, Lisa''bob! I remember all the challenges he had when he first took on the PL job. Amazin'' how they can "grow into it". Good for him! Beavah

Yah, dat''s interestin'' oz! A Scouter contract. I''ve seen CO Codes of Conduct for volunteers, but I''ve never seen somethin'' like what you''re suggesting. Could be a nice idea. I''m interested to hear what others think or have done. Beavah

The Totin'''' Chip Award patch is in the new Insignia Guide, described as temporary insignia. :) Yah, they''re so funny, eh? I don''t think supply and program folks ever really talk to each other. Supply Division indicates that the Totin'' Chip patch is "not for uniform wear." I think dat''s supposed to be the right answer. But if it fits on da bottom of the right pocket (sorta looks like it might), then I''d go for that as BA suggests. Seems like it would be a fun, fairly prominent place for the kids to put it and feel proud. Unless of course you''re a strict uniformin'' type . Then yeh gotta buy the lads a patch jacket or patch blanket early! Beavah

What, nobody''s chimed in yet to say dat the patch vests aren''t official wear in da Insignia Guide? I only commish for one pack, but I always get a kick talkin'' to Wolves and Bears about their patches. Beavah

Yah, to get us off da uniform and back to the fun and practice of Scouting... Share a new idea or a new outing that your boys have developed for their program this year! Program plannin' conferences, TLT and NYLT should all be wrapped up by now, and folks should be in the thick of things. What's new and fresh from your guys this year? As a favor, I'd ask we not critique, yell at, call others "wrong" or otherwise start kickin' up the sand over the new ideas and outings boys are coming up with. Just share, around the campfire, what seems fun and fresh in our programs. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

How about the Scout that thinks it''''s "cool" to wear his MB sash folded over his belt instead of wearing it over his shoulder? Since this thread is about being boy led, seems like it''s time for da classic answer: What does his Patrol Leader say? How about his SPL? His PLC? Uniform method is supposed to work in concert with Youth Leadership and Patrol methods (and Outdoor Method, which is another story ). FWIW, that badge-sash-on-belt thing has been an unofficial practice across the country for almost 30 years. Yeh can even find BSA catalogs and publications which show it. (Of course yeh can find BSA publications that show every kind of uniform permutation contrary to the Insignia Guide ). To my mind, it doesn''t really look bad, and if the kids are doing something active it''s a darn sight safer than having that floppy, easy-to-snag sash around their neck, eh? I imagine the lad saw some camp staffers wearin'' their sash like that for that reason. Beavah