Beavah

Since OGE and F both want the other thread to stay clear for Ed and Merlyn to argue in peace, I figured it would also be fun to have a sidebar thread where the rest of us (but not Ed or Merlyn,) could comment on their discussion points in peace. Rules are to only comment on their points, rather than creating a separate debate here between other people. Beavah

Egad. I'm finding myself agreeing with BrentAllen on a uniform issue Now I'm the first to laugh at "untrainable" patches and such. I think humor is an absolutely necessary part of working with kids, especially self-effacing humor. And I'm the last to turn a kids' program uniform into the equivalent of an employment or military uniform in terms of expectations. Folks who want that should go get a job with a uniformed agency. I've got no problem with a religious CO adding a patch or purple loops or whatnot, it's their program, and we in the BSA respect that. But I gotta say, the protest knots just go a bit too far for my taste. Just strikes me as discourteous in the other direction. The uniform is the uniform of an organization, and when we wear it we are to some extent seen as spokespeople for the organization. If yeh can't do that honestly, don't wear the uniform. You can be a scouter without it. That to me is a better choice than mocking it, or wearing a device that says "only I care about you, so talk to me" or whatever. Just sorta seems nasty about the organization and other leaders. Seems like a lame way to protest, too. Low-cost. If yeh really care about the issue, lobby your COR to vote for different representatives to the national meeting. Picket the council annual meeting where that selection takes place. Just my thoughts. Beavah

As I was readin' the WB benefits thread, I was thinkin' to myself "gee, I wonder what training he's done already". And then thinkin' some more "And what Scouting?" I've always thought that Scouters got the most out of WB if they took it after doing all the leader specific training and spending 2-3 years serving as volunteers. Long enough to develop the practical experience with how to manage "day to day" Scouting and have that under their belt. That way, when they go to Woodbadge, it's really the "next step up" to take their troop program to a new level. Otherwise, they don't really "hear" or understand/appreciate all the patrol method and youth leadership stuff because they're still workin' out all the day-to-day nuts and bolts. I know WB is now being pushed earlier as part of the trainin' sequence. But what do yeh all think? Beavah

Yah, didn't want to hijack the original thread, eh? The topic was started by Slouchat about why we silly Yanks like plastic clothing so much. I responded because we have a lot more plastic bottles to recycle than we have sheep, and nobody wears cotton in the cold. GoldWinger responds: "Better than cotton, eh? " Not really. At least when cotton is dry, it provides some insulation. Nylon never does. Also, the thin nylon doesn't stand up to abrasion. I do have a synthetic jacket for riding my 'Wing but that's a whole 'nother animal. As for cold weather, I went to school in the northern midwest. I've seen cold but I never said "Gee, I wish I had plastic clothing." Yah, I agree GW. Nylon doesn't provide insulation, just a wind barrier. That's deliberate, eh? Most of us like that because we use layering. We can select the amount of insulation we want for the given conditions, with the added thriftiness of not ownin' separate clothes for different temperatures and conditions. Just one set, mix and match, from 0-100. Cotton of course is a negative insulator when wet. Better to be naked than wearin' a cotton shirt or trousers, especially the small, thin guys. And what kid have we known that doesn't get wet in the woods, eh? I agree that a downside of many types of nylon is abrasion resistance (some kinds of cotton, too, but in general the natural fibers are a bit better than the plastics). Bigger downside is thermal resistance. The suckers just melt near flame (though I suppose that's better than catchin' fire). But on the upside it's light, warm, reasonably priced, easily compressible, doesn't hold much water at all (and insulates when wet), wicks moisture away from the skin, not scratchy, etc. I live in da northern midwest. Regularly hunt, camp, and ice fish when it's cold enough to freeze the tail off the devil. If yeh never tried plastic clothing, particularly polypro long johns, fleece jackets and pants, and nylon shells, yeh really don't know what you missed! Beavah

Yah, NCS is the employee training program for the director and assistant director levels (including directors and assistant directors in program areas like Aquatics, COPE, etc.) in BSA-run camping programs (summer camp, council high adventure programs, etc.). BSA camping activities run under a different set of rules than unit camping activities, and therefore have different training requirements. Yeh need to be recommended/sponsored by a council to attend NCS. As OGE and others point out, it's less expensive than the alternative recognized training in most cases, and if you're signed up to be a camp employee it's usually paid for by your employer council. B

Yah, I thought Eamonn was a Paddy, not a Brit?

sorry to interrupt, but what's it about this nylon/polyester clothing all the time? I fail to see why they prescribe plastic clothing in the BSA. Not sure what your retailers are likely to carry over there in Germany, eh? But if yeh look at any professional outdoorsmen, mountaineers, sailors, paddlers, skiers, etc. you'll find plastic clothing, eh? Lighter, warmer, not scratchy, comes in fun colors. Plus, we have a lot more plastic bottles to recycle than we have sheep. So wool stuff is pretty pricey and not always available in kid sizes. PolyFleece can be found in any big-box discount store for cheap. Wool ain't a bad insulator even when wet, but it does hold water and get heavy. You'll typically see it mostly in socks, hats, and gloves for workin' around the stove here. And cotton is "death cloth" below 50 degrees in wet weather. So it's pretty hard to find anything but plastic clothing in reputable outdoor shops in da U.S., eh? Beavah

At a round table, the advancement guru dictated to all in attendance that merit badge advancement forms would now be validated against the district merit badge councilor list. I asked him if new forms would be issued with a slot for councilor on the form. He said, no that we would continue to use the standard BSA form. I then asked if we needed to turn in blue cards. He said no, since our summer camps don't use them. I then asked how the district would validate the councilors. He just repeated that they would be checking. I yielded my remaining time to the chair. Whatever! LOL :) I think that district is quite advanced, eh? They're usin' ESP! Yah, I'm not sure what da problem is transferrin' between councils. Yeh give the name and council number of your old council, registrar looks it up on ScoutNet. Poof, presto, you're done. Biggest issues I've seen are "lost" or "never entered" records. Can happen either at the troop or council level. That's when yeh grab an advancement card/MB card or a blue card and use it to fill out a new advancement report. B

Yah, Scoutingagain's solution is fairly well-reasoned, eh? Problem is with age-based patrols the older boy patrols are always goin' to have a big advantage over the younger kid patrols. PLC/Senior Patrol/Leadership Corps etc. even more, because they're likely to be both old and high-ranked/skilled/active. Sorta like playing the middle school soccer team against the high school JV or varsity. (yah, yah, sure, sometimes a strong and lucky middle school team will beat a weaker high school team, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule). If yeh really want patrol competition to work, yeh have to do something to make things roughly fair. That's why I'm an old-fashioned codger who believes in mixed-age patrols. But that won't help at a council event against another troop's all-high-school ringers Beavah

As for the switchbacks, I'm not looking forward to wearing those in winter. Nylon in the cold is not a good combination. Better than cotton, eh? Honestly, in real winter you're goin' to be wearin' a waterproof/breathable shell pant or an insulated ski, hunting, or snowmobile pant or suit. Nobody's goin' to be wearin' a "regular" pant of any kind. In "fake" winter like some of yeh southerners have, just put a pair of polypro long johns under your switchbacks. A fine and cozy combination. Though I wouldn't mind if supply chose to add a nice poly-wool blend pant as an official alternative, eh? Beavah

Yah, I'm not sure why in da world if yeh thought the sanction of removing him from SPL was called for you would turn around and "give him some other leadership position." What kind of a message is that to send? "What you did was bad enough to evict you from our Highest Position but we're still going to give you our Highest Award? :P" Nah. If consequences really are called for, they should be real consequences - ones that take time to rebuild trust afterward. I wouldn't particularly make this a committee thing, though I hear yeh that you've got a good working relationship and are just seeking advice. I'd sit with the lad and ask him what happened. If you get Slick Willie, then yeh may need to help reinforce what the school and family are doing with words and consequences of your own. If you get Contrite and Honest Boy Scout, then I'm not sure that you'd need to go there. In either case, I'd ask him whether he felt he needed to resign as SPL because of the situation and the example for other kids. See what the response is and go from there. Beavah

First Monty Python and now Arlo Guthrie? B

#14 Distinguished Commissioner Service Award. Silver knot on red.

Yah, KC... Yeh can try the locator at the Council on Foundations: http://www.cof.org/Locator/ It's mostly an association to help foundation leaders, rather than a resource for donors, though. But it will direct yeh to a community foundation near you if there is one. Their website or contacts in turn can assist yeh; CF's vary a lot dependin' on size and local stuff. Don't hesitate to call them either and go in to chat. That's what they're there for, eh? Beavah

Yah, OK. That would be a true "uniform violation," eh? Unlike all da other things that get the Uniform Police all worked up, this one is a deliberate choice to wear somethin' that's truly contrary to BSA policy, eh? Somethin' that represents a position opposed to that of the National Executive Board, rather than a kid or an adult wearin' a fun patch or religious loops or whatever. Personally, I think a better position is to just refuse to wear da uniform if yeh don't like what it stands for. As usual, though, the choice of the rest of us is not "whether this is OK". Our choice is "What should I personally do when talkin' with a fellow scouter who's wearing an inclusive scouting knot?" Probably same thing we do any other time we disagree with a friend. Be kind. Be courteous. Be understanding. And if there's an opportunity, while drinking coffee around a campfire some night, offer our personal "alternative perspective" in a way that invites our friend to think more deeply on the matter . But only in a Friendly way. Beavah P.S....Just one quibble, ASM915... da BSA membership policy applies to adult leaders, not scouts. The position for scouts is more nuanced. I would hope we'd all be open to being approached by a boy in our programs who is struggling with personal issues. Bein' a teenager is tough, eh? And kids along the way have all kinds of confusion and doubts and bouts with rebelliousness and such. I know one former "atheist" scout who went on to be a faithful Eagle and is now a minister. But when he became a teenager he just needed to be a rebel for a couple of years. -B

Yah, those pesky Bobwhites keep flittin' in and out of the verses, eh Flighty critters. I used to be a Staffer, and a good old Staffer, too! But now I'm finished Staffering I don't know what to do. I'm growing old and feeble, and I can Staff no more So I'm going to work my Ticket if I can! Back to Gilwell, Happy Land! I'm going to work my ticket if I can. Remember, Staff are not an infection, but we do grow on yeh! Now, where are my fellow Beavah's???

Here's another option for yeh, depending on where you live. A lot of communities have a local Community Foundation. A community foundation allows yeh to give money to establish a fund or trust for a purpose you specify. Might be for Scouting, or any other charitable purpose. The advantage is that the Community Foundation handles the administration and investment of da funds, so it's impossible for a deceitful diocese or council or whatnot to abscond with things. In turn the beneficiary church or scout program has an incentive to keep the Foundation honest. Built in oversight! I'm a big fan these days of encouragin' people to set up or give to separately incorporated foundations or trusts, especially for estates and such. Not just to keep a charity from redirectin' the money itself (like a council selling a camp, eh?), but also because of da risk of tort litigation taking your money from the charity. The scariest example these days are the Catholic diocesan bankruptcies and payouts. That's a lot of charitable dollars no longer going to the charity in the way intended by the donor. If yeh give to a separate foundation or trust, that can't happen, eh? The added bonus is that the community foundation will usually have excellent advisors to help you get the most "bang" out of your estate charitable giving. Things like insurance contracts or charitable annuities that avoid tax or estate issues and such. Your planner can help there, too, but should work with organizations you're interested in. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm.... just amazes me da bureaucracy some well-meaning district folks try to put in place, eh? One would think there'd be a better use of volunteer time on behalf of kids. Nah, Joe, I've never seen this happen. Once da record has been entered into ScoutNet (either directly online by the troop or by the council registrar), that's the official record. Remember it's da Council Registrar who is the official signer for MB's and ranks on an Eagle Scout Application. So if it's in the system, and the Registrar signs, ain't nothing the DAC or CAC can do. I suppose a few folks might try, but would get a stern talkin' to by the Council Program Director and District Chair and there wouldn't even be a need to appeal. Now a district or council could in theory try to screen for blue cards and MBC's before they're entered into ScoutNet. At a larger district/council I've never seen anyone even look at blue cards beyond the unit level. A few folks try and give up after a few months. In a smaller district/council it's possible, I guess, but there's a lot of troops that go to out-of-council summer camps and programs, camporees, etc. And if I remember right, da blue card only has a spot for the counselor's signature, not printed name. Can yeh imagine tryin' to decipher everyone's scrawl? And in da end, all the troop would have to do was submit a MBC application for the person anyway to square the records, and nobody makes any money off of those, eh? But da real question is "what are we tryin' to do for the boys?" If someone's got a burr in their britches about MBC's, they should take it up with da troop leaders or the camp director, not the scout. Politely. The kid was just relyin' on the camp or SM to make sure the MBC was kosher, eh? No point in givin' him grief. And are we really doin' such a thorough job of verifying MBC qualifications that any of this paperwork polka really amounts to anything but a waste of time? Has anybody ever seen a MBC application rejected? Beavah

Yah, and just to recap a few major ideas from the thread.... The 5% is what percent of the total membership earn Eagle Scout each year. So if you're really trying to be honest about reporting what percent of the boys who join Boy Scouting eventually earn Eagle, the real number is substantially higher... probably around 20%. Which I expect is what most of our real experiences are... 1 boy out of 5. For established/active troops, it's probably a fair bit better than that, eh? Beavah

Yah, interestin' question, Lisa'bob. Around here, "good" troops tend to have a first-year retention rate of about 60%. A few have higher rates, but to be honest they're Webelos 3 units that then have much higher attrition in years 2-3 (and very few high school aged boys at all). I really encourage troops to do "exit interviews." I wish we as a council did them systematically. But here's some guesses. * A big chunk of attrition is due to middle school competitive sports programs. Those are a financial and "required participation" commitment, scouting is not. Unless dad was a scout and valued the program, the middle school sports kids leave. Part of dat is yeh still have to participate in scouts to feel "part of the team" and not fall behind your peers. * Another chunk is "parent exhaustion." Most of these just don't cross over. They've been burned out by all the parent stuff in cub scouting, and are relieved that "it's finally over." * Another chunk is "camping shock" on the part of the kids. Anarchist describes it to a "T". A boy who has been doin' nothing but parlor cubbing and one "fairest of fair weather" camp is stunned by camping in a troop. It's wet, smelly, cold, I have to work, etc. Personally, I think a lot of cub programs lose the adventurous lads before they ever make it to Boy Scouting. * Yet another big chunk is poor parent education/communication by the troop. It's just "too big a leap" for the parents who believe scouting is an "organized activity." * Some boys drop for academic reasons. Middle school can be a tough transition that way. * A final one is boys who are isolated - who don't have friends from the get-go in the troop. ------ * I don't know what yeh do about the sports folks. Probably nuthin' yeh can do, though it might be interestin' to make webelos more challenging and attractive like soccer. * Might be worth startin' to shift parents during webelos into "support roles". Yah, they have to be present and that's most of the burden, but make it a bit more like "the adult patrol" in boy scouts. Less of a burden on them, more independence for the kids. More of a notion that the den leader and den chief handle the "front end" with the webelos taking a role. * More camping. Camping in weather without running home. No compromises on kids doing chores - helping with cooking, washing dishes, setting up their own tent. Sleeping in a tent without dad. Experience with pit toilets. Knowing how to dress themselves for weather. Having an active, regular program that builds some reasonable level of fitness. Get them into swimming lessons as cubs. * Lots of folks had good suggestions on making webelos a "half-way-point" in terms of parent involvement. Introduce more separation and more chaos. Have boys make announcements. Lots of kid activities where the parents watch rather than help (just like soccer!). * Encourage boys to cross over in good sized chunks of friends. Go out of your way to encourage the "natural leader(s)" among the boys. If yeh can develop a consistent relationship with one troop (like same CO) that helps, because da boys and parents will know older boys and families when they join. Much less scary. Beavah

I think it was dat flighty bobwhite flittin' in there and mixin' everybody up! Then a fox came by, no doubt out to eat that bobwhite Here we sit like bobwhites in da wilderness Bobwhites in da wilderness bobwhites in da wilderness Here we sit like bobwhites in da wilderness Waiting for the BUFFALO PATROL!

Scoutldr beat me to it, eh? Yeh gotta love da random and bizarre answers yeh get to questions sometimes. The $1.50 charge should apply only to boys or adults from troops that didn't sign up for unit accident insurance (aka "Health Special Risk" supplementary health care coverage). And if they're goin' to bother chargin' for that at every district or council activity, yeh should suggest that the council just pay for it for everybody for the year and add it to the recharter fees. It's cheaper, and certainly easier. That's what a lot of councils are doin' these days. The notion that a parent has to file a tour permit to carpool is a real stitch. Someone had to have made that up on da spot, eh? I wonder what they'd say about a 17-year-old Lodge member who drove himself to the meeting? G2SS violation? Strip him of his membership on arrival? Just put a tag line on your event/meeting announcement that "Members are responsible for their own transportation to and from the event". Beavah

Yah, don't know what da rest of you are seein'. We're seein' more and more proof-of-insurance requests and odd bureaucratic stuff from government agencies, too. I gotta admit I'm with FScouter and Scoutin' Again. There's a point where being officious should mean "well, gee, I can spend my volunteer time and free labor and materials elsewhere." Beavah

Ya Beavah but I thought that the BSA insurance covers you no matter what you do as long as you don't commit a crime. Why is this guy loosing time at work, having to hire a personal lawyer to deal with BSA layers that are tying to shift blame. Possibly to the CO and not the SM but can this guy really take that on faith? I had auto insurance for 20 years with the same company then I got rear ended and was injured. My insurance would not pay my medical bills, I had to sue and ended up with less than lost wages and medical bills. BSA's insurance isn't like that? That's what Beavah claims but that's not what BSA says. As many here will tell you, only go by what BSA says. Yah, I don't reckon educatin' and providin' information will help folks with genuine faith in da boogeyman (or the ones that have become BSA spokesmen ). Though I like the fiction of the magnum-wielding Russian-roulette den leader. That's even better than the boogeyman! But if we're goin' to view our fellow adult leaders as scum, might as well be accurate about it. Too many molesters out there. Not a single magnum-wielder though. But for those who are really interested in this stuff and want to understand... In a a case like what LongHaul mentions, the plaintiff may name the BSA as a party to the suit. Usually will, in fact. However, if it was a unit outing, the BSA is not responsible, eh? The negligence is committed by the adult leaders and, under the doctrine of respondeat superior, by the chartered organization for whom the adult leaders are volunteerin'. It's the Chartered Org., not the BSA who is responsible. Da BSA is just providin' a product (educational program materials). So da BSA will routinely in such cases file to be excluded from the suit, and the court will routinely grant it. That's not "shifting blame". That's puttin' the blame where it lies. That also has nothing to do with da BSA's role as an insurer. The BSA still acts as primary insurer for the registered leader and the CO, even though the BSA is not party to the suit. This is just like a car accident... da plaintiff sues you, and your insurer defends you and pays any judgment. The plaintiff doesn't sue your insurer, they weren't drivin' the car. Why is that important? Well, da BSA coverage has limits. Particularly in serial molestation cases, the BSA coverage can be exceeded, in which case the CO and the CO's insurer is next on the hook. That protects the BSA from an excessive judgment which could bankrupt the organization much like it's bankrupting Catholic dioceses. Which is why it's important to understand the role of a CO in supervisin' scouting volunteers, and how a scouter's fiduciary responsibility is to da CO, not to the BSA, because the CO is the one ultimately liable for their acts. That's also why da BSA does not ever want to be directly supervising the behavior of unit leaders... because if they supervise, then the BSA is responsible. Now LongHaul's friend, assumin' the CO is a NFP organization, is probably immune from judgment by statute, so in the end only the CO is subject to the suit, while bein' insured by da BSA for the first $15+M. Maybe. In some states, the troop's permission slip/waiver may be strictly enforceable and the whole thing gets dismissed up front. And probably the plaintiff is suin' the ski area, the ski patrol, the ski manufacturer, the ambulance company, the ER doc, etc. So in other states it might be da CO ends up with only a fraction of da blame. Complimicated, which is why yeh leave it to da pros. But yah, if you're involved in a suit, it does take up a bit of your time for depositions and the like. Just like jury duty, it's one of da costs of citizenship. +++++ Now, as for "what BSA says," I'd say "show me." Show me a document from Irving that says they won't cover somebody. Not a Googled internet doc from a random council (though you'll note that da vast majority of councils do not say what yeh claim, but instead reflect what I've been saying). And not a document that uses terms of art that yeh don't know how to read right. Individual councils, like individual scout troops, botch things all the time, and documents hang around without updates or corrections for years. Yeh should have seen the hash my council made of YP procedures a year ago, or how many councils still tell leaders that BSA coverage is excess, not primary... and that was changed in 2001. I can show you a few genuine Irving documents, eh? There is da COR training official syllabus which states the BSA will "Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization and its board, officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal liability judgments. This insurance includes attorney's fees and court costs as well as any judgment brought against the individual or organization. [emphasis mine]" The DE's instructions on how to answer a CO liability question are : " The Boy Scouts of America provides general liability insurance coverage to all chartered organizations for any liability that might stem from operating a Scouting unit." Those would be general documents from da National Council, eh? But no need to trust da Beavah. "He's in Central Region, they might be weird ;)" Go ask your COR to set up an appointment with your Council President and your Scout Executive. No need to rely on the net, have a real corporation member (COR or IH) ask directly right in your very own back yard. Be sure to let 'em know that a brand new UC was tellin' them that insurance wouldn't cover and it scared 'em about liability and they were considerin' droppin' their charter if the BSA was goin' to "hang 'em out to dry" for ordinary negligence by the unit leaders. Go have your COR ask. And accept the consequences. Beavah The above commentary is for informal and general education and discussion purposes only. Real issues of tort liability and insurance coverage are dependent on jurisdiction and carrier and cannot possibly be answered on an internet forum. Nothing in the above text constitutes a formal legal opinion, nor should any commentary here be relied upon as legal advice. For legal advice, hire a practicin' attorney in your jurisdiction. They're good people and will serve you well.

The lawyers went over every inch of this guys training, asked for copies of the YP video he was trained under, wanted copies of tour permits and statements as to how the boys were prepared for the event. They wanted everything they could think of. Yah, of course! Those are billable hours, eh? And da standard of care is industry norm, so they want to compare what da troop was doin' with the industry norm. Need that just to prove negligence, eh? So it goes to whether or not to settle for a nuisance payment. Beavah