Beavah

Purple Heart Knot (purple overhand on white). For injuries or illness suffered in the line of duty.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

I've seen a Cooking Knot (or was it an eating knot)? Square knot had a fork in the middle.

Wow, a resurrection of a Y2K thread! Moderators, might this go over in the current Eagle thread?

Yah, Lee1989. Welcome to da adult scoutin' world. "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." If knots and other awards for your uniform is where your treasure is, then yeh haven't left the youth program yet. You can read LongHaul's documentary about the odd beast known as the Man Scout. As an adult, your treasure should be in helpin' the kids achieve. In seein' them grow and build their program and earn things for their uniform. Take trainin' and work hard not for an award you wear, but for the reward you get by seein' young people grow. That's the only reason to stay in Scoutin' as an adult. Ain't a thing on my uniform that's important to me. It's what I do in my uniform that counts. Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, nws... what's your role in da troop? Are yeh looking for ideas as a SM? I think we need more background. What are they fightin' about? "Tastes Great" vs. "Less Filling"? How are the patrols set up? B

In da original thread, OneHour writes about a 16 year old Eagle Scout who is a bit of a goof and a bully. This is an eagle scout, the epitome of the honor that I have been preaching and selling.... I have to beg your pardon, but this is a repeating offender and an eagle scout... a repeating pattern of disrespect and [poor behavior]. My love and respect for scouting and its values are what I would like to pass on to my boys and the scouts. I would like to think that the Eagle Scout rank is still worth the values that it is representing! If I am wrong let me know and I will stop selling scouting! OneHour's "not holding back" aside , I'm sure we've all seen a few Eagles that might fit the description, eh? Kids where maybe we ran through the motions of advancement but perhaps didn't really hit the goals. Kids who maybe dilute the value of the rank for others. My question to da group is "Why?" In these cases, where did we blow it? What should have been done differently? Was it not emphasizing Scout Spirit for rank? Passin' kids for just holding a position rather than performing it well? What does da group think? Beavah

Yah, OneHour... no jab intended, eh? But even in your last post you're using all kinds of really emotional, loaded language ("physical and mental abuse" etc.). Yeh may have been objective about this boy in the past, but right now you're runnin' too hot and aren't objective at all. Breathing exercises, a long walk. Relax. All of us have individual kids that get under our skin. Good scouters learn to recognize that and let other people handle those kids. Sounds like this kid gets under your skin, and gets the double-whammy because he may be pickin' on your lad. I'm sorta wonderin' what your older son thinks? Isn't he about the same age as this Eagle? You raise a very valid second point, though. Someone should be addressin' the older boy's behavior, or at lest keepin' an eye out in the future. That someone should not be you. It should be the SM, or the ASM for that boy's patrol or whatever. So for you, the action is to encourage your boy and his friends to bring future problems to the SM, and to give the SM a call with a "heads up". Yeh might find there's more to the story (there often is). Yeh might find the SM is "already on it." Yeh might even find that the older lad is dealin' with some other issues that are over his head, and there's grounds to be understanding. And yeh raise an interestin' third point, but that belongs on a different thread So, my Rx... 1) Deep breaths! 2) Buck up your lad. Express your confidence in and love for him. Help him with strategies that you think will be useful to improve his ability to cope with such things, or defend himself from such things. (Yah, and I'm not necessarily suggestin' a reverse kick to da head, though he might find that satisfyin' ) 3) Coffee with the SM to let him know your concerns, ask him to keep an eye out. B

Yah, holysmoke.... Let me take a step back to "I think you're goin' about this da wrong way." I wouldn't play analyst for other parents, eh? Take them to visit other troops, introduce 'em to the troop leaders, and let them make their own impressions. They might notice and care about all kinds of other things that you have missed or not mentioned. Maybe Troop 2 has a more active community service program? Maybe Troop 1 seems to have more experience with ADHD? Maybe dad shares a hobby with other dads in Troop 2 and feels more comfortable there? Maybe mom is a nurse and notices that the First Aid instruction in Troop 1 is poor. Another Scouter might look at the same two units and report on Uniform Method or how well real scout skills are reflected in Advancement or how strongly they emphasize Values. Me, I'd look for da nature of Adult Relationships with the youth before anything else. The points yeh chose to mention are just a tiny part of what makes for a wonderful scout program for a lad. Might be da ones you have an interest in, but not other folks... and maybe not even your son, eh? Let other families and kids form their own impressions, and let each unit tell you about what it thinks are its strengths and weaknesses. The only one that gnaws at me a bit is the bullyin', and only a bit. That can get sorta institutionalized in the boy culture of a troop sometimes if the adults aren't sharp. Not just bein' bullied, but yeh don't want your son to learn that as an example. But an isolated report is just that, eh? There's nuthin' here that rises to "alarm" or "evil". Just two great, relatively strong scoutin' programs. Now, as far as makin' changes goes... If yeh go into a program saying "There's things wrong here that I'm going to change" you will never be happy, and you'll never be successful and you'll make your own son and every other family in that program miserable. I can sit here in my den with da fire roarin' and tell yeh the good and bad about every troop in our council. There's good to be found everywhere. There's weakness to be found everywhere. Lots of time the two go hand in hand. Active adults drive active programs, but often they lean toward adult-run, eh? When yeh go join a Boy Scout troop, you're steppin' into somebody else's program. That can be hard to do if you were the Cubmaster or Webelos Den Leader or otherwise "the boss" at da moment. It can be hard for internet SM's to do too, who are the "bosses" of their own wonderful programs. It means a loss of control. It means trustin' others the same way others trusted you as CM or WDL (or SM), even though they surely recognized some things that you didn't do well. And it means recognizing that a lot of parents and kids like what their program is doin' and don't want you messin' with it. So don't go in tryin' to change things. Go in sayin' "this is going to be great!" to your son, let him choose his "best fit" and give him some freedom to make it his own. And let other families do the same, lookin' for the things they care about and their son's best fit. Beavah

Hmmm.... goin' back over da list, it seems we mentioned this one in #2 but never included it in the list. Explorer Scout Ranger Award (green and brown on kelly green background).

Yah, LongHaul started this on another thread, so I thought I'd try to move it before da hijack was complete If being fairly active in District and Council means the adults themselves are active at these levels then they fall under what I call "Man Scouts" a species to be avoided at all costs. Lisabob inquired: "Oh, LH, I can't let that slip by! Do tell, what are the attributes of a "Man Scout?"

Yah, I think in cub packs religious awards are mostly parent-driven. A good cub pack can encourage 'em, though, and make a big deal about presenting the award. But da kids are only "into it" as much as their parents are. Just another thing to do. At the Boy Scout and older levels, there's a lot more room for encouraging boy growth in this area it seems to me. The religiously sponsored units definitely have an advantage here, of course. And these days, with most of da units shifting from public to religious sponsorship, there's a lot more room. Here's some things I've seen in different units, just as ideas: * All meetings start with a (youth-led) prayer or reflection. Youth selects from his personal religious background. Same with all COH's, perhaps usin' scouter religious background or CO chaplain. * Unit does a "Scout is Reverent" as an activity theme for a month. Kids attend the services of their patrol buddies' church each weekend, get introduced to religious awards, plan a "reverent" themed outing. * Unit celebrates religious awards much like Eagle - special celebration at denomination's location. * Unit closes campout/campfire with short individual prayers, followed by Scout Vespers. * Unit invites non-Catholics to Pope Pius XII religious award sessions, which are teen-discussion based, similar to ethics-in-action. * Scouters bring up topics for discussion at campfires with older scouts and with each other. * SM Conferences / BOR's always ask questions about "duty to God" and "reverent", to explore and encourage growth. * Unit always goes to services on campout (denominational unit). * Instructors work religious perspectives into other areas instead of treatin' them as taboo. So when performing critical first aid, demonstrate sayin' a prayer or offerin' last rites. When talkin' about Leave No Trace, considerin' religious aspects of stewardship of the land. When talkin' about community service or "helping other people at all times", goin' to religiously-run community service agencies or including a religious component as rationale. * Attending bar mitzvahs and confirmations for fellow scouts as a patrol/troop. Attending funerals for scouts and scouters family members as a troop (with specific "how to participate" or "what this means" instruction beforehand). * Holding religious retreat campouts. Again, easier for denomination-sponsored troops, but not that hard to do as a joint event. * Encouragin' boys to earn two religious awards - one in their own denomination, one in a buddy's. * Chaplain's aide works on a religious/service component for every outing. Of all of 'em, I think the ones that eliminate the "taboo" of not talkin' about religion are the most effective. It should be natural for a scout to wake up on a crisp mornin', look at the sunrise, and in the presence of his friends say "Thank you, God, for your Beautiful World!" Beavah

Yah, I mostly agree with Eagledad, eh? I like his description of buildin' confidence. I'd re-emphasize my points in that area: Camp in a tent with other kids (from Eagledad) Have experience with outdoor cooking (from Eagledad) Have experience with outdoor chores like cleaning (Beavah) Have experience with dressing for the outdoors (Beavah, probably 'cause we're much farther north). Have experience with pit toilets (this seems to be a "big deal" in ways I can't figure out). Learn how to swim and have fun in the water (swim checks, water activities, camp, etc. are really scary if a boy doesn't have some good water confidence). Have a good level of fitness (again, enough confidence that he can carry a backpack on a long hike, keep up with other boys, climb as well as his buddies, etc.) Be comfortable on their own a bit (Beavah) Be comfortable in front of crowds (Eagledad) Be comfortable with troop ritual (Eagledad) Be comfortable around bigger boys (especially important for "oldest children")... either with den chiefs or troop visits/join events). ------- Now, yeh need to make a similar "be comfortable" or "have experience" list for parents. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Clearly you're runnin' a bit hot, OneHour. And clearly some "history" has been simmerin' for a while. So goin' back to your original question about over-reacting, I'd say "Yes". Take a break. Give it some room for perspective to form, or just stay away. And most especially, stop fightin' your kid's fights. If your boy is 14 years old, as you indicate, either an old 8th grader or a freshman in high school, he's plenty old enough to deal with an insult on his own without mommy or daddy. And he should be allowed and encouraged to do so! Lookin' at it from what yeh describe, it may be that your intervention and takin' control away from him in the past is really what is handicapping your son in the present. Bein' the butt of a joke should not reduce a 14-year-old to tears and quitting. So I'm back to "show your kid you believe in him - that you think he's smart and strong." Don't fight his fights for him. If he really needs it, give him some pointers (or some good one-liner comebacks). Give him your confidence in him. And let him handle it. Beavah

Yah, hot foot. Yer thinkin' about this all wrong. Must be readin' too many Scouter.com postings It's not "lesser of two evils". It's greater of two goods! Scouting is a wonderful program, and it's great that there are adults out there who give of their time and treasure to provide a year-round program for other people's kids. No soccer team is perfect. No school. No band program. And no scout troop. But having two active, fun, year-round, volunteer scouting programs to choose from is GREAT! What a wonderful opportunity for them and their kids to continue the great Scouting adventure. Your job is to talk up both programs, and point out their strengths, not their weaknesses. Help da kids and the parents find which of the units is a better "fit" for them. Beavah

Yah, I do too much across lots of units and districts and such. I'll be wearin' the newest stuff as an example. Beavah

When you hear from your child, or witness at a meeting/outing a situation where a boy is being unkind toward another boy (maybe your son) and you are not the Scout Master, is it ever appropriate to contact the boy's parents and let them know? Only if da message you want to send is that your boy can't handle it, the PL can't handle it, the SPL can't handle it, and the SM can't handle it... and only you know what's right. When you're out with a troop, you're participatin' as an assistant leader of the troop, and yeh have to stay in that role. No end-running the youth leaders and the SM. If yeh do it, everyone will get da message eh? The message that "Gawd, she (doesn't believe in me)/(is a nosy busy-body and a jerk)". All of 'em will cut you out, especially the kids. At best, they'll behave a bit while you're watchin', and then go back to what they were doin' when "that lady" is gone. Even if da parents are your best friends, kids need a space where they can learn and grow and make mistakes without bein' mothered. Perhaps yeh can think of better ways you can teach by example, coach the PL, or things like Roses & Thorns discussions the ASM workin' with that patrol can use? Beavah

Yah, OneHour, how old is your boy? I'm with EagleDad and allangr. Allangr describes what a good SM would do, evaluating the circumstances and tailoring a response to the two boys in question. You're interested in what you as a parent should do. I'd say 1) Never use email for something like this, eh? It always requires at least a phone, but preferably a face-to-face meetin'. 2) Never go direct to the other parent. As EagleDad says, that's very likely to just blow up, and it breaks down the SM's and the troop's role in mentoring and guiding. 3) Dependin' on how old your boy is, and how sensitive, consider the possibility that he may have missed some social cues and taken something harder than was intended. Part of growin' up is learning that stuff, and learning to deal with insults and awkward moments. 4) If at all possible, don't take control away from your son. Listen to him. Give him your love. And then give him suggestions on what he should do next (or next time). He's upset because he felt the insult took away his control, his respect in the eyes of others. Don't show him that you agree by taking away control as well. Show him that you think he's strong and smart and can handle such things without you taking charge. 5) Quietly, behind the scenes, call the SM and let him/her know what's up, but only after you've calmed down and have put control squarely back in your son's hands. It's a "just so you know" call, not a "I want someone's head" call. Hope dat helps a bit, OneHour Beavah

Yah, a lot of times yeh can make a point of teaching the kids when the adults are around, eh? Then they sort of pick it up by "osmosis." Call a LNT Master educator or send an email to the program at lnt.org and ask 'em for any materials they have for kids that age. Beavah

Yah, GA, both John-in-KC and scoutingagain gave yeh the lay of the land. Council records are what counts going forward. Council records are created when a troop files completion of a badge or rank with the council. The only record of "partials" is with the MBC or the scout's book. There is no obligation for a new MBC or a new troop to accept a "partial", though most are pretty agreeable. Any good new troop will be happy to help yeh get things straight. Most troops will accept blue cards, rank cards, Merit Badge cards or the word of the former troop if somethin' is missing from the ScoutNet records, then file the paperwork themselves if the old troop doesn't take care of it. The council, too, can do that directly if documentation comes to them. We're all working for da kids, eh? Your son's registration remains in force until re-registration time for his former troop (1 year after the last time the troop re-registered). In some councils, all units are on a different schedule; in some, every unit re-registers the same month (often January). At re-registration time, your former troop will drop your son's registration. So yah, there's some advantage to findin' a new troop before then. Why wait anyway? But it won't really affect paperwork and such; everyone should work with you either way. Beavah

Yah, OK, one more.... There's some confusion over religious award knots. Da youth religious award knot was submitted as #15 (silver knot on purple), but marked as adult. Da adult religious award knot (purple knot on silver) should be added. B

Yah, OK, I'll take a harder one. Da William H. Spurgeon award for outstanding leadership or contributions to Exploring. Gold knot on green. While the award still exists in the Learning for Life division, the knot for use on the traditional scouting uniform was discontinued when Exploring was spun off with LFL in 1998. Only traditional scouters who earned the award before the spin-off are permitted to wear the knot on the uniform. The award could also be earned by organizations as well as individuals. B

In honor of Veteran's Day, this seems like a good topic. Lots of troops at some point or another make use of opportunities to camp on military bases. Particularly in "bad weather" months like November in da north. What a great way to keep up a positive relationship between other men and women of service and the BSA, and to introduce the boys to folks who care a heck of a lot about their country. So here's a chance to share what tips and techniques and ideas great and small yeh have for troops (or packs) visiting military bases. Feel free to include any bases that yeh feel are particularly grand to visit. Beavah

If you had a scout show up at an Eagle BOR wearing a sash with only 5 or 6 merit badges on it, what would you say? "Hi Joey! Welcome. I'm Mr. Beavah. I'm delighted you've made it so far in Scoutin'. Have a seat, relax, and lets have a conversation about your Scouting experiences. And if at any point yeh don't understand my accent, just ask me to say it again in English, eh? I don't mind!" Teachers do a lot more work with kids than we do, and have a lot more trainin'. So do counselors. So do outdoor education professionals and guides. Yet none of 'em wear ribbons on their clothes. In the adult world outside of the military, that's just not done, eh? So I can understand how some folks would feel uncomfortable wearin' a bunch of ribbons that reflect a lot less trainin' and experience. For children, a MB is meaningful. But we're adults, eh? I try to keep my knots program-specific and limited to a few meaningful ones, but they aren't a big deal. The big deal is helpin' the kids or other adults and seein' their smiles. Beavah

Yah, LongHaul, how many scouts in CAC these days?