Beavah

Yes it is still wrong. Of course, anything one does that could be considered wrong is automatically "not wrong" as long as one can think up a good excuse. Yah, OK, I'll bite. FScouter, is it wrong to grab a cord and use it to beat people and destroy a small businessman's personal property?

All interesting books but they were all written by men. Of course they were. Origin of the Species was written by a man, too. So was Einstein's Relativity formulation. So was Pasteur's books on how to disinfect such things as milk so as to make it safe to store for long periods before consumption. Just because somethin' is written by a man doesn't mean that it fails to accurately describe a phenomenon that is not man-made in origin. Or at least make a good shot at approximatin' it. Murder is the unlawful killing of another person. Self-defense is legal in most locales so cannot be murder. And dat's where yeh don't understand. Because you begin with the assumption that law defines morality, yeh dismiss other possibilities. So yeh try to reduce the bible and other ethics to your legalistic assumptions. "Moses was just trying to control unruly people and needed to pass laws", etc. Yeh fail to consider the alternate explanation: that Moses really had a prayerful, personal relationship with Divinity. Which would explain why the Mosaic code in the Torah was so novel and attractive, and why it endured. The rest of us think that morality would be pretty weak indeed if it relied on a definitional turn of phrase (like your murder definition above). Even weaker if it relied on human law, which is not only human-written but human created. A human author writing of experiences with God may only see through a lens, darkly. But at least he sees more than his own reflection. Beavah

Yah, most of us in da north hate February crossovers. Talk about dumpin' new kids in at exactly the wrong time. I understand for Texans it works well, though. Beats first campouts in hot/humid summer heat and such. B

service should be done because it's the right thing to do (not to mention the Scout Oath)...not something to be done only in exchange for a reward. Yah, true. Same thing can be said about Thrifty and payin' yer own way, which is what the parents seem to be sayin' to rwh1955! It was just an idea; Jethro's idea is also a nice one - give boys a chance to work together for fundraising - both organizing and working. Both ideas might be more acceptable to families than selling junk, because there's so much else that service teaches. We do require service for 2nd Class, Star, Life, and Eagle in exchange for those awards eh? Should we be droppin' the service requirements for rank (and Camping MB, and...)? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Will you agree that a fair bit of the Law is about the relationship of society, and of individuals within the society, to the Godhead? I think our notion of "society" is a post-biblical one, eh? So to read our understandin' of "society" into the text can cause some confusion. I'd say that the Law is about each individual's choices, but that da individual's choices clearly affect their tribe/society. The more individuals follow the law, the more the blessings of God accrue to the group, through the individual. The more individuals ignore the law, the more destruction they cause not just to themselves, but to their family/tribe/nation/environment. Sin and virtue are always personal. But da effects of each are communal, in part because of direct benefit or damage, and in part because giving a good (or bad) example affects others' personal choices. Beavah

Yah, OGE, I lean your way, eh? But LongHaul's on the side of an equally robust and inspired moral tradition. Gandhi's and Jesus' non-violence. A willingness to lay down one's own life in charity rather than harm another, even if da other is a sinner. B

Nah, Slouchhat, yeh didn't get it, and you continue to judge our culture based on your own culture's prejudices. I meant just to be informative, not to start an argument, eh? To try to share a different perspective. But sure, I'll play from our perspective. You deprive folks with certain viewpoints of free speech and assembly rights. We find that abominable. What are you afraid of? Do you think that their ideas are so much better than yours that they would overrun you if they were allowed to speak them freely? What does that say about the strength of your own ideas? And then with genocide goin' on in your own back yard in da former Yugoslavia, you and the rest of Europe dithered and did nothing, and left it to us judgmental Americans to take care of. To say nothin' of us providing your defense out of our pocket for 40+ years. BSA Scouting is very successful over here. Seems like we provide nearly half of da funding for WOSM even though we have a much smaller fraction of Scouts. When is German Scouting going to step up, eh? Or is it perhaps that your choices have made yeh much smaller, or yeh don't place value on supportin' world organizations or your neighbor? It's easy to judge da foibles of another culture from outside without recognizin' your own weakness. For us as well. But once yeh get inside da other culture, yeh realize things are more complicated, people are mostly good or at least well-intentioned, and some things aren't even foibles. Best, Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

The word "must" makes it a requirement. Nah, GW, yeh really need to understand da difference between a training document and a policy. It doesn't even require "infinite wisdom." Lots of times in trainin' (or other program materials) we choose one good way to suggest to people, because givin' 'em all the variants is just too confusin' for beginners and takes too long. Supplementary modules were an outsourced project with a time limit of 1 hour per module. And nobody in da BSA is really doin' detailed cross-publication continuity/consistency editing on program materials at the individual word level da way you suggest. When BSA wants a particular form to be required by a boy, they write it directly into the Boy Scout Requirements, just the way LongHaul describes. Like using the Eagle Project Workbook to complete the Eagle service project requirement . I can say that I know thousands of boys and hundreds of Eagles with earned and recognized MB's that never were processed through a "Merit Badge Application" form. Nuthin' stoppin' you from usin' Blue Cards in your troop if that's what you want and it works for yeh. That's what they're there for, convenience of recordkeeping. But only that. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

If that's what you want to believe, go ahead and believe that but it doesn't make it so. Of course not. What makes it so is readin' the rest of the Bible so as to understand. Civil law is concerned with what makes society run best. Morality is concerned with how it is best to live as a person. When yeh try to reduce morality to the scope of civil law ("I can do what I want as long as I don't hurt or annoy anybody else too much"), yeh diminish and weaken it, and miss the point entirely. Just another form of adolescent relativism. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

So those who don't believe that they have a sould can have no morals? Yeh can believe that you don't have a liver if yeh want to, to. Doesn't make it any less real. Feel free to substitute whatever word yeh want for "soul" - spirit, personal character. Point is that morality is concerned with the choices of the individual. The last six have to do with keeping peace in the neighborhood not your soul. Nope. Clearly yeh don't understand Judeo-Christian thought. All of da commandments are about the individual and his/her spiritual welfare. Yeh don't work on the sabbath because taking a day to dedicate to God and not personal labor is good for you. Yeh don't worship graven images because it's not good for you and will lead you astray (whether the images are of a golden calf or Benjamin Franklin, eh? You honor your parents because that's good for you. You don't kill because that's what's best for you. It jeopardizes your relationship with God and your own best self. You don't commit adultery because being faithful even when it's hard makes you a stronger, better person. etc. etc. Nothin' there at all about society. Every commandment is about personal growth and personal relationship with Divinity. That it happens that following the commandments also creates a just and strong society is just evidence for their validity. But it ain't the reason. That's why teachin' and encouragin' others to obey the commandments is an act of Kindness. We do it not because it's best for us/society, we teach morality because obeying the commandments is best for the other person's well being. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I think there's three levels of understandin' Childish Belief in simplistic rules from mom & dad (or other Authority). Bible=literal rulebook. Adolescent Recognition that the simplistic rules are sometimes stupid, and that mom & dad are fallible. Rebellion against all rules/external Authority. Bible=same as any other book, but I like (Marx, Bohr, etc.) Adult Understandin' that there are underlyin' rules/principles, but they're not simplistic. They're challenging and subtle and not easily written down. Finding truth is hard, but it is possible to identify error. Bible=touchstone and guidebook, with some things firm, some things more tenuous/culturally conditioned. Da childish understandin' believes in absolutes, but they are human in origin. An Authority. A Book. Da adolescent understadin' abandons absolutes in favor of relativism, 'cause they see the errors in childishness and human Authority, but don't recognize they're makin' the same kind of error just randomly choosin' from human authorities da ones that feel good. Da adult understandin' believes in absolutes, but not ones human in origin or ones that can be perfectly defined in human words. It doesn't dismiss past understandin' or Authority as irrelevant, but takes 'em as a base from which to keep searching for a deeper understandin' of principles, and a deeper relationship with their Source. Understandin' of morality can change as a person or a culture gets wiser.... or more selfish. Specific actions might change by culture (like we don't use a left-handed scout handshake in Islamic countries, because that would be a great discourtesy). But da principle of courtesy is universal. As is morality. Beavah P.S. Coveting is part of da big 10, GW, because morality is concerned with the health of each human soul, not directly with da welfare of society. Envy is personally destructive to health and happiness and relationships even if it's never manifested as theft, eh?

Yah highcountry, how 'bout this... Instead of fundraisin', yeh have service. Boys who want to participate on outings have to participate in community service on a 2:1 basis (or some other ratio). A day of community service "pays" for a weekend outing. If their parents are bein' generous with them by writin' a check, seems like we should teach them to be similarly generous to others in need . Almost seems more in keepin' with the Scout Oath than sellin' stuff. Plus, I reckon community service that their son does will be a lot more attractive to parents than sellin' popcorn (which, mostly, da parent does). Beavah

Yah, Slouchhat, you'll forgive me for thinkin' that the notion that Germany is "as diverse as America" is a bit laughable, eh? Germany does have a lot of cultural legacy from the WW2 era. Part of that cultural legacy is a response to the shame of what was done to Jews, and gypsies, and homosexuals by those then in power, with the tacit and often active approval of da populace. That's part of your culture, I understand. "Never exclude unless there's incontrovertible reasons for exclusion". America didn't live that, eh? It's not part of our culture in the same way. Our equivalent is the legacy of slavery and racism, but it doesn't have the same character. In many ways our WW2 and Cold War legacy is "standing fast against those who would do evil." Not just attack us, but do evil to their own populace or their neighbors. That might mean we're too quick to intervene in things we don't fully understand, but it does mean that it was the U.S., not Europe, that went half way around the globe to intervene in former Yugoslavia. It's the U.S. fighting pirates off Somalia so as to free Korean citizens, etc. Even the genocide in Sudan has our populace wringin' our hands with itchy trigger fingers, though we know intervention there is not in our strategic interest. That sense of "standin' fast against evil" has its basis in a Christian moral structure that's "absolute" in the sense that it justifies such intervention more than it validates "every government/person as being equally good". We're more religious and less cynical than yeh are in Europe. Our political structure is also not parliamentary. Our politicians are free to vote their conscience on any issue, and if the ruling party loses the vote, no big deal. Next week you may have to forge a compromise with a different group. Parties mean less here as a result. We care more about individual politicians and their personal characteristics - are they honest? honorable? smart? Since they're free to vote as they see fit, person matters to us more than party and as much as platform. How do yeh tell about a person? You tell by his/her choices. A choice to have sex with a subordinate and lie about it has nothin' to do with governance. But it says somethin' fundamental about his character, enough to merit impeachment from governance. In da same way, a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle to most Americans reflects something fundamental about character. It's a choice to reject Judeo-Christian ethical principles - and to do it proudly and openly (as compared to a thief, who might do it secretly and be ashamed when caught). Someone who openly rejects Judeo-Christian ethical principles we feel is not the sort of person who is the best example for children. While we might respect their ability in a free society to say or even do what they wish, it doesn't mean that we want those values passed along as "right" for our kids. We would say the same about Nazis, eh? We allow them to march and say what they will, but we would not be comfortable havin' 'em teaching children. By contrast, you Germans do not even allow them to march or to speak, let alone teach! So it seems like you're a lot harsher than we are about groups your culture doesn't agree with, eh? Beavah

Fun post, LH. I figure yeh could probably use any of the Merlyn threads to really get at the communications thing, eh? The one thing I'd add is "How to listen/read to hear the real question(s)". Aquila wrote a 5 paragraph "question." Only one of the lines was "Is the badge EARNED when the MBC is satisfied it's earned, and has signed off on it? Or is it EARNED when the SM signs off on it?" To answer a question well, yeh have to put it in context. If Mrs. Beavah says "Does this dress make me look fat?" I sure as heck better put that question in a bigger context rather than answerin' it at the surface level, eh! Aquila's 5-paragraph question also included implied questions like "Can I counsel my own son one-on-one?" "Can/should the troop double-check to make sure I did a good job?" "Is eight or nine badges counseled for my own kid (or any one kid) too many?" "What's the best way for me to raise these questions/concerns with the SM and his wife the Advancement Chair?" To answer a question or set of questions well, yeh often have to put da answer in context too, eh? Give some background to help the listener understand the answer or the viewpoint. Great topics for Communication MB, even if not part of da formal requirements! Beavah

Yah, GW, thanks for your patience. I doubled with you on the last message, but I really enjoyed the examples! I'm understandin' now. Nuthin' wrong with you in your troop wantin' kids to keep their own records as part of teaching personal responsibility or whatnot, if that's an Aim for yeh or you find it works. Just recognize that the League/BSA doesn't care. They're goin' by the score that got phoned in/keyed in/submitted on an advancement report form. That's what's goin' to be official. And ultimately if yeh try to hold a kid from Eagle for not keepin' Blue Cards or White Cards all neat, be aware that'll probably be considered "adding to the requirements" and overruled if the lad appeals. Wouldn't be my choice, but if it works for yeh and you find the kids learn a lot from it, more power to you as a unit. At a district/council level, where we have to serve multiple units, it ain't kosher to force such a requirement addition on every other troop. Beavah

Every game that I umpired for my 20 year career ended with me signing the scorebook. And every MB or rank a boy earns ends with you signin' an Advancement Report Form. What's da difference? If as an umpire you choose to use a blue form for recordin' things between innings, or yeh have a pocket clicker for rememberin' balls and strikes, or you have your friend Charlie sit in the stands and keep notes, or yeh give each kid a sheet after his at-bat and collect 'em all at the end of the game, with a signature on each from da coach.... doesn't matter. Those are all fine, eh? Use whatever works for yeh. I imagine you'd have some suggestions for other umpires about what works, but that yeh wouldn't mind a fellow ump usin' his iPhone as a record book. Just submit the Scorebook/Advancement Report Form when you're done. Dat's what's official. For all da other stuff until that point, do what works just don't make it too complimicated, eh? Unless managing bureaucracy is one of your Aims for da kids. Yah, and sure, if da league loses the Scorebook/Advancement Report Form, your iPhone record might be a convenient backup. But that's all what KC calls the "transparent" side, eh? Not a kid thing. I don't reckon you expect the league MVP to produce all his signed at-bat sheets for the season in order to get his award, eh? Beavah

Fact is, with the things we've learned in science and the applications in technology today, we can't expect the Bible to be as relevant as it once was. Once it was established back in 325CE or so, it was a rigid document open only to differences of interpretation. Now we got packsaddle da Biblical Scholar? This is just hysterical, eh? Biblical Fundamentalism was a sideways offshoot of da Reformation. Our modern notion of Biblical Fundamentalism is largely a product of some branches of the North American Baptist tradition. Judeo-Christian understandin' has in general never been static nor da bible "rigid." Like science it is growin' toward a fuller understandin' of underlying Truth. And yeh scientists have done well with electrons and molecules, eh? But yeh are no better than barbers with leeches when it comes to psychology, sociology, (ethical) education, economics, governance, etc. So I'm just not seein' any real effect on how science has made religion less relevant, other than how being fat and well-off has made any person or group of people self-important and stupid throughout history. So keep your science. I'll teach kids to Love God with all their heart, and their neighbor as themselves. While I'm grateful for a better refrigerator and annoyed by the better bombs or bioweapons yeh scientists make, I'd rather live with folks who have so much love that they would lay down their life for a friend. Those types make The Best Kind of Citizens. Happy Thanksgivin'! Beavah

We have an obligation to make sure that the rules are followed by all involved. Nuthin' wrong with makin' sure a kid actually learned something or got the quality program he should. Just many different ways of doin' that. Good ways and bad ways even. Most of da good ways of doin' it don't involve an obsession with paperwork. They involve a relationship with da kid. Beavah

Nah, kenk. Just one signature. B

I can't help but wonder if my son didn't have all his blue cards, would the Board have denied him Eagle? Nah. But as J-in-KC points out, this is where a troop adult should be helpin' out. The council registrar can pull your son's records from ScoutNet if yeh know each council & troop that your son was in. If not in ScoutNet, the council registrar can call each council directly and talk to their registrar and look up da paper records. Now, what if one of your son's troops had never submitted paperwork on his Citizenship in da Nation badge? Well, then the most practical thing is for someone in his current troop to look at a signed MB award card that your son has, and fill out a new Advancement Report Form with that date. Or, if he doesn't have a MB award card, a blue card. Or he calls up your son's old Scoutmaster/TAC, and submits a report on his say-so. Only gets ugly if your son kept no records, and his old troop never submitted an Advancement Report, and his old troop folded, and everybody in his old troop who knew anything died. Beavah

Nah, Slouchhat, I think you're bein' a bit too broad, eh? Certainly the "corporate scouting" model in da U.S. is different than in Germany (and all the rest of the world). To a big extent it creates a single "brand identity" and uniformity that's far stricter than havin' a mix of scout associations like your native land. But it ain't the same as a monoculture. Not by a long shot. In fact, most other "clubs" are far, far more "monocultural" than the BSA. I think human cultures (as opposed to biological ones) can benefit from limited diversity. That brings variety and perspective. I think human cultures also break down in the fact of too much diversity, which results in conflict and separation. German culture is far more "monocultural" and monoracial than the U.S., and you have your struggles with former East Germans, Islamic immigrants, & former Eastern Europe immigrants, do you not? Maybe a bit better than France, eh? But not that much. Not everything is bigotry. Some things are real differences in viewpoints and approach. Beavah

Yah, just to be clearer, eh? We have mom calling this a BOR. Maybe da troop leadership even used the word. But it's clear that this council uses district-level EBOR's, eh? So nothing at the troop level was really a BOR. What happened was da scouters and the CC met with the boy and told him that the Committee Chair was not going to approve his application, based on input from all the scouters. That's within the unit's purview, as is holding any sort of reflection prior to committee or SM signatures on da application. Best not to get caught up in the misuse of terminology. Also good to remember that since the boy is over 18, there's no need to rush things. He's not allowed to "do" anything more. The district EBOR can be held any time within the first three months after his birthday (and it's easy to get an extension to 6 months). Appeals can happen after that. Bein' thoughtful and respectful helps all the facts come out and allows folks some time to calm down. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

A kind poster PM'd me about my use of "half-a**ed", and I agree with him. I apologize for that (just didn't get to it to edit in time). The way I was "saying" it in my head had all the right jovial and joshing inflection, but that doesn't carry in print. Please edit that in your mind, spinnaker, to read "was pushin' the time limits and did a hasty/last minute/incomplete job on the application." Like most kids do at da last minute, eh? I'd still advise the steps, and the tone, that I mentioned. I don't reckon anything is served by tryin' to short-circuit the process provided by the regs for handling this stuff. Going through it step by step in order demonstrates that your son is deserving of Eagle in ways that callin' up the DAC and making accusations just doesn't. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

All kinds of ways to do it, rwh1955. Yours sounds interesting. I have a question, though. If many or most of your families are willin' to just write a check, why fight it? That seems to be your market telling you something. Families these days are busy. Both parents working, kids at multiple activities. Time is often a lot more "expensive" than cash. Yeh might figure out what the troop program expenses are and make that "dues." Then spend your time teachin' teamwork in the woods and fields where they learn faster and have more fun, rather than hockin' overpriced popcorn. Beavah

Yah, what Eamonn said! I'm not sure where da odd notion of cheats and villains is comin' from. Any SM worthy of da uniform knows his/her kids and knows the score. The SM is the person who is goin' to catch any hanky-panky, not the district folks. So in Beavah's magical world, there is no requirement for record keeping or verification. Don't know where I said that, mate, though I do think Scouting is a Magical World for kids! There should be ordinary record-keepin' to serve the lads. Some troops use TroopMaster, some use paper, quite a few use blue cards, most use rank/MB award cards. Some use scout books for signoffs, some use troopmaster, some have a website, some use dat advancement wall poster or Scribe record book that Supply sells. Maybe a few use tatoos . There's no form specified, except the online submission to council or the paper Advancement Report Form for council. Or, put in GW's language "show me a rule anywhere that specifies that blue cards are required (or mean anything at all)." There are some principles, of course. MBC's are the ones who approve MB's, so a troop advancement chair or SM should have some form of direct communication from a known and registered MBC before submitting an advancement report. That direct communication might be a blue card, or a paper form from a camp, or an email, or George telling him at a meeting that Billy just finished Citizenship in the Community. It should not just be a statement from a scout. But do we honestly know any troop that would accept a scout walkin' up and sayin' "give me Lifesaving MB?" It's a kids' program, not a review for the Congressional Medal of Honor. Boy Scouts of America, not BureaucratS of America. There's a role for paperwork, but it ain't to put up lots of artificial hurdles for kids or busywork for adults. Beavah