Beavah

So the program knowledge of the program leader has no effect on program quality? Interesting. Nah, lad, what I said was that we've got no method of measurin' the program knowledge of the program leaders. We have only a poorly-kept set of records on whether they've been talked to for a day. Not even close to the same thing. Eagledad, that's really interestin', eh? As you know, I'm not a cub program division guy. I've always wondered why our losses at Bear are so large, sometimes the single biggest loss of youth - more even than webelos to scouts. There's some other interestin' choke points. We've always seen dropoff in high schoolers, but I'm seein' it tied to FCFY programs. The "Eagle early and out" bit (or "don't Eagle early but get out") is more than anecdotal. Dat's behind some of da discussion about makin' Venturing a required division step at high school, eh? To give those lads a "next thing" rather than lose 'em. But cubs is definitely the area to focus on. B

Today's students, be they 6 or 60, expect bullet point and quick easy to remember phrases. If they are not specifically told to watch for something they often miss it. Yah, but that's because today's students are raised in a culture where da goal is passing a test, eh? If the goal is passing a test (either in school or for a quick signoff), then yeh want da route that gets you there most efficiently. That's bullet points and quick, easy-to-remember phrases. I think dat's part of what Eagledad is talkin' about, eh? The adults don't understand the goals or methods, and just fall back on what they know - lessons and tests and business theories. Even some of da adults writin' the materials. Scoutin' should be a live-action video game. Yeh don't see lads lookin' for bullet points or quick, easy-to-remember phrases when playin' World of Warcraft, or soccer for that matter. They're fully engaged with the experience. They might share tips and techniques and tales with each other, but they're all about the challenge and puzzles and success. And as they have success, they build "levels". There's no "Make 10th level First Month" courses and trainin'. That wouldn't be any fun. And there's no learnin' the theory of different spellcasting styles. There's just play... but play that's engaging, that leads to ever-increasing skill as a measure of "success." And if we listen as adults, there's not a kid who won't go on and on and on about his exploits and all da things he's learned about that electronic world, eh? Anyway... gettin' back to da thread... Any other TLT reviews? A reminder to please let everyone know da number of times you've actually used the materials with kids yourself before yeh give a review. Beavah

But youth members have been dropping steadily from the Boy Scout program for 8 years. And the big problems seems to be un-trained unit leaders. Yah, yeh know. I see da numbers when they go by. This is a bit like da FCFY thing, eh? A correlation does not equal causation. There's just no good data to support da conclusion you're drawin'. And if we think about it, exactly how much learning are we really gettin' in the small amount of time it takes to complete NLE and BASIC? Is it really at all practical to think that our couple days of trainin' is that effective? I don't buy the notion that membership decline can be blamed on "bad" unit leaders. If there's a correlation with unit leaders at all, I suspect it comes from adults these days bein' more mobile and not as "rooted" in a community, and not thinkin' they have the time to contribute in the deep, long-term way required to be a good unit leader. With smaller families, one son and out. That, and da loss of good folks from gettin' ticked off at sellin' camps, membership fraud and the like. Which we all suspect was a chunk of da loss of numbers the last 7 years, eh? Can't blame volunteers for those losses. Really, though, our core demographic is shrinkin' in da U.S. Can't blame that on unit leaders. And shiftin' charters out of the public schools, while necessary, has cost us a small bit, too. Can't blame that on the unit leaders, either. Add all these factors up, and we're doin' pretty good in a world where middle school youth program competition has been growin' like mad. Beavah

Yah, da dumb thing will never survive a judicial challenge. The problem is it will no doubt hurt a few folks and cost 'em a lot of time and money and lost productivity in the meantime. Just another example of da creeping strangle-vine of government. One of da things that has annoyed me most about both da Democrat and Republican Congresses is their willingness to play procedural games to get absurd provisions and laws passed as riders and conference committee slip-ins and earmarks and such. An honorable man or woman upholds the process, and lets their ideas stand the test of their colleagues in the open, pass or fail. He/she doesn't slink about trying to sneak it into some other unrelated legislation. Shame on the lot of 'em. And I hope Senator Specter finds this annoyin' eh? Some of us don't need da ACLU or da CIR to handle a neat little federal injunction. But if I disappear to a foreign prison, would someone please call Amnesty International? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Leadership by persuasion can work well when you are sure a troop member knows how to complete a task but he has never done it without assistance. Offer lots of support and encourage the scout to try it on his own. He may be fearful of failure or may not trust his own skill and knowledge. By encouraging him, you can persuade him to overcome his doubts and achieve more than he would otherwise have thought possible. That's good advice from da BSA literature, eh? If yeh have an SPL who after several rounds of TLT still might be uncomfortable takin' on that role for the first time, then I reckon persuasion might be da proper style to choose. Don't coach him on stuff he already knows. Express your confidence in him and encourage him! Of course, sometimes a lad might really need coaching, eh? Yeh gotta meet each kid where he's at. But I'd encourage the unit leader who was experiencin' that to reflect on what he/she might do to make TLT more effective. Or perhaps go back and look at how the troop is teachin' basic camp skills for T-2-1 so that the lads had more confidence in their skills, eh? Beavah

Yah, hi milwscout! Milw-? Milwaukee? Thanks for your leadership in our Brotherhood of Cheerful Service, eh? And congrats on bein' appointed to da Exec. Board. Formally, in da BSA Insignia Guide, your shoulder loop colors match your position of primary registration. As a Council Scouter and member at large, your primary registration is gonna move to the Council in most cases. That moves yeh to Silver Tabs. So if yeh want a quick-and-easy solution, that's it, eh? You should wear silver rather than red in all your functions, regardless of da position patch on your sleeve. Informally, most folks prefer to match their uniform to the position they're servin' in at the time. Partly to avoid confusion, and partly to not look "uppity" in da way you describe. So when you're servin' the council as board member, yeh wear a council uniform, silver tabs over an Executive Board patch. When you're servin' your troop, yeh can wear red over an OA troop representative patch. For Lodge Chief whichever one is clean, eh? I can also suggest hot-swappable velcro . Beavah

Id really like to know when cooking meals became the only criteria for identifying the patrol method. Over and over someone posts the notion that if you eat in a dining hall then you are not following the patrol method. This would mean that we can only employ the patrol method on campouts because when we have troop meetings everyone ate some place different before hand. Unless you spend a good part of your day preparing, cooking and cleaning you are not really Scouting? Since troops are probably makin' final camp choices and sendin' deposits and thinkin' about camp for this coming summer, seems like this ongoin' discussion is worth it's own thread outside of FCFY calendars . B

For instance If I was a scoutmaster on a cabin campog trip I would probably spend a few minutes with the SPL the night before... "what are we doing afetr breakfast in the morning?" ..."What jobs need to get done before we can leave?"... "is there anything else you can think of?", let's take a look around the cabin and see what else we have used in here"...."what should we do with the wood stove?"... "how do you want to get that done?" ... "Will every one know how to do it?" Yah, hmmm.... Dat's a lot of coachin' for a lad who has been through TLT several times, don't yeh think? Mostly, after that trainin', I figure most SM's would assume da level of expertise the lads had was pretty high for this sort of low-level camp task, eh? And if da expertise is high, we adults should be shiftin' to delegation or consensus leadership styles. Coachin' would only be for an inexperienced SPL, remember? From WB21C? "So, Samuel P. Leaderman, yeh got things wired for tomorrow? All da PLs know what's up? Great! Have a brownie!" Beavah

Yah, while BW is right, da reality on the ground is often not quite what the ideal is, eh? IMO the only really good CO's are ones that either run youth programs themselves (schools, youth ministry etc.) or have a unique and special place in their heart for Scouting (VFW, etc.). Neighborhood and informal parent associations and such don't really have a "mission" that includes youth development, eh? So while yeh might get some folks interested in that for a while, when they leave, so will that focus. It's not part of their core mission. Practically speakin', work with your district key three to identify a couple likely targets. Chances are your district membership committee already has a few "prospects". Then as a team, go get 'em on board. While IH's are nice people and all, yeh really want to look for a youth advocate and a scoutin' enthusiast. For example, if yeh can find a district or council committee member who is at a church, and da church has a young or otherwise enthusiastic youth director, and a reasonable IH, you're golden. Da scouter generates the scoutin' talk and becomes COR, the youth minister gets aboard as a friend (and MC/Chaplain), and you bring a program that might be small but has some potential. You're off to da races. It's far better thing to move and save a strugglin' unit than it is to build one from scratch. Your DE can help yeh with the paperwork for the current CO signin' off on the numeral and equipment transfer, it's pretty straightforward. From da situation you describe, I don't reckon it'll be much of a problem at all. Beavah

Figured I'd move this over here so as not to hijack da other thread. After my critique of da TLT materials, BobWhite jumped in with plaudits. So, since some of yeh may be thinkin' about usin' the modules, a fair review is in order. In da interest of fair disclosure, I'd ask each reviewer to indicate da number of times you've actually used the materials with kids yourself. For me, that's 5 times workin' with 4 different troops. Three times straight-up, 2 with pretty hefty supplementation. BW described some features pretty well, eh? The Scout learns about the Youth Lead concept of Troop and Patrol operations, The Troop organiization chart and the National Honor Patrol Award program, as well as a brief overview of his role as a leader... The Second module deals with 'How to BE a leader'. In it the Scout learns about the vision of the troop's success, how to teach using the EDGE model...In the third module the scout learns what is expected of him as a leader. meets with the adult who will be guiding him to discuss that scout's specific office and responsibilities .... And they take pre-printed job descriptions card and on the back write what their goals are for their term in office. Oh, joy! A pre-printed job descriptions card! Kudu's off for da week, but I'm sure he'd have pleasant words to say about such 7-minute-manager fad stuff, eh? Can yeh imagine anything more dull and incomprehensible to kids? And for that matter, to most of da adults bein' asked to teach it? On the upside, the modules are deliberately designed to be less scripted than the old JLT stuff. It's deliberately pretty "thin." Some of the message is definitely that it's the SM's job to modify and adapt to make it work with his troop's program, because troop leader trainin' really is da SM's business, as Eagledad and BobWhite indicate. I don't think it gets 'em there. Better to pull Greenbar Bill's stuff as a resource and get the kids out and doin' stuff and havin' fun. Along the way yeh can introduce EDGE or Hersey-Blanchard or whatever, if it seems to fit. Scoutin' should be a game. Any other reviews? B

That's...hmmm...a...'unique' way to view a national program, any national program. But it also explains a lot eh? I wish you luck with that. We have great luck with it, all throughout our region and da nation. It's called the Boy Scouts of America, one of the most successful volunteer-run youth programs of all time! Settin' up local service corporations and relyin' on local trainers allows us to be examples of servant leaders and respond to each area's and unit's needs, usin' the best of local resources. I'm sorta fond of da system myself. BA's description of da Red Cross is also another great example of a national volunteer-delivered program, eh? And it's very similar, with local service corporations and locally implemented (and sometimes developed) program. Tough thing is they have a much smaller and more well defined product. CPR is pretty straightforward compared to youth outdoor leadership & citizenship education. But they're another great model to look at, fer sure. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, dat's what we're recommendin' to everyone now; kids as well as adults. Go da passport route. One of the things to be alert for is that Canadian and U.S. officials play a tit-for-tat game. Every time U.S. border agents become more finicky about Canadians, the Canadians become more finicky about U.S. citizens. So you'll tend to get more grief goin' into Canada than vice versa. Expect both sides to require a notarized birth certificate copy if yeh go that route. So for sure da new rules are goin' to slow things down a bunch. Best to be prepared. Remember that Canada also abides by the Convention on International Child Kidnapping. So yeh also need your permission slips handy and well-written. It really helps to travel in uniform (we all do that anyway, right ), because that's an instant explanation to da immigration folks why an adult has a bunch of unrelated kids in his car, which might otherwise be suspicious. Roll down your windows as yeh arrive at the immigration station so they can see everyone. Oh, yah, and be aware that yeh should avoid fresh meats (like dat two pounds of hamburger in the cooler) and such. Da restrictions vary by province and state, but yeh can risk losin' your steak dinner to da agricultural customs inspector. Beavah

Yah, Local mentioned somethin' about rope and frayed ends or somethin' so I just had to spin off a new thread. Didn't want to mess with his thread about nothing. Got a couple troops interested in uppin' their level of Pioneering Project challenge, sort of as a bit of a one-upmanship fun competition between the two. They're lookin' for good sources and recommendations for rope and poles. What does da group recommend for layin' in as an ideal, re-usable, not too expensive rope for lashing, that keeps a good hand and lasts over time? Any recommendations for cheap places to obtain decent, straight, load-bearin' poles that aren't too heavy? Beavah

Yah, fun observation, dan. Da ECOH's that are more youth-run tend to have that laid-back character. Meaningful, but especially meaningful to da youth. Da ECOH's that are more adult-run tend toward da pomp and ceremony stuff. Both have their pluses and minuses, eh? I confess I really enjoy the slightly more informal ones, because they show me a lot more about a lad's and a troop's personal experience with Scouting. Beavah

Yah, Hi tagguy! Hopefully your district or council has somethin' called NYLT (National Youth Leader Trainin', IIRC), which replaced the old district/council JLT course. Most of da folks I know who have had experience with it report that it's a great experience for a troop's youth leaders to go through. You should ask about it. If not in your district/council, then yeh might ask in a neighboring district or council. Da BSA also publishes an outline called TLT ("Troop Leader Trainin'") which is really just an outline, eh? Can't say I can recommend it much, but it might give yeh some ideas on setting up your own in-troop training for your PLC members. I'd encourage yeh to think of that more as an account you make a deposit to every month, rather than a one-shot investment. Each month, set aside a day or an activity for PLC training. If you've got your calendar done for da year, yeh can stay a month or two ahead and train/refresh your Patrol Leaders' skills ahead of that month's activities. Another option is to team up with another local troop that has some TLT already in place. That can be a great way to get a jump on it, so to speak. Plus make some good contacts for you to talk to for ideas, and for your SPL to talk to for ideas, eh? I'm sure some other folks here have other great ideas, too! Beavah

Yah, DenZero. I've seen these situations before. Often times one particularly dynamic Cubmaster or Scoutmaster can build a big program like this, and suck the life out of smaller units in da area. It can be really rough on your DE and district folks, 'cause usually when da Cubmaster or the core dynamic group leaves, the pack collapses back down to more ordinary numbers. Except the other packs aren't around anymore, so da total cub membership suffers a net decline until some units can be re-started. I'd encourage you to have a conversation with the other pack and see if they can't help you with resources and perhaps some joint activities. That can be da best of both worlds, eh? A smaller, more personal pack with some shared "big" stuff, and perhaps some help with recruitin'. Other than that, it's sorta pluggin' along. Yeh can borrow a page from Kudu's book, and ask the teachers who the more involved parents are - go after them and their kids specifically, and they'll draw others. PTO's can be great places to be involved, because there tend to be parent cliques/groups there, and if yeh pull one in yeh tend to get the whole clique. Since you're in a public school, your CO relationship is pretty ordinary, eh? Dat's all Dale decision fallout, unfortunately. Movin' charters to nearby churches while keepin' the pack at the school. But I'd sure be havin' a chat with the youth minister for elementary kids (Sunday School?) at the church to see if yeh can build some connections and recruits. Beavah

The road map is explained duing New Leader Essentials and the job specific BASIC training. Nah, I think John-in-KC is talkin' about somethin' far more specific, derivin' from his professional training background. What educators call "alignment", presented in a specific kind of easy to use graphical format. Dat's not in NLE or Scoutmaster Specific. Closest thing I've seen to it is in BA & LongHaul's document in the FCFY Calendar thread. B

Sorry, I know a lot of captains that would like to think that is true. but the BSA has already determined the destination (the Mission) and the course, (the Scouting program). Nah, lad, that would be another misinterpretation, eh? Da BSA determines its own mission, certainly. It's mission is to make charts, and to be helpful to boat owners. The way it's helpful to boat owners, is to provide books about sailing and crew management, training on navigation, boat insurance and da like. That's the Scoutin' program. In the old days folks who took other peopls boats and went where they pleased were called pirates Yah, exactly! And da BSA is not in favor of piracy. The boat is owned by the CO, and the Skipper works for the CO. If the BSA tried to determine da mission and da course, that would be piracy. Or mutiny. And we hang both of 'em types from da yardarm, eh? Beavah

Or the unit is a boat, and da CO is the owner of the boat, and da BSA publishes charts and manuals and offers training to help sail the boat, plus providin' some ports for provisions and activities along the way. Da boat owner chooses the destination, the crew gets to decide the route. Yah, analogies get really bizarre. I think it's important to remember that da Charter & Bylaws, and the Rules & Regulations that scouters nominally agree to are real documents. They're actually very brief and very "big picture." Things like da 3G membership requirements and such. They are not the same thing as program documents like G2SS, the Scoutmaster's Handbook, or all that stuff. That's just helpful program resource. For my part, I disagree pretty strongly with BobWhite's characterization of Commissioners as umpires makin' calls. That's back to da "being in charge" thing again. The Commissioner Service of the BSA is a service. We don't tell people things, call strikes, or order them "out." That's not da BSA program. We're guests of the units who are there to assist 'em with resources and ideas, as part of keepin' da BSA's side of the Charter Agreement. So if I'm invited aboard da boat, I'm gonna behave like a good friend and guest, eh? I'm not gonna criticize the skipper while he's sailin'. I'm gonna enjoy the time, and look around, and watch the crew. I might suggest that I've been to Port Camporee, and it might be a fun place to stop if they're goin' that way. If the opportunity arises, I might give 'em a hint on how to trim a mainsail a bit tighter on a close reach. And if they're sailin' into rough weather, I'll do my part and lend a hand, offerin' my expertise to da skipper. I'm not an umpire. I'm a friendly old salt. Beavah

I find a comment like that far more disturbing than unusual. I am surprised that you would classify that as a fun activity for a Scouting program. Yah, I had to try to come up with some way to have a First Aid scenario happen during a meeting opening, eh? 'cause the issue was not whether any requirement could be taught durin' a meeting opening (certainly flag ceremony, oath & law, etc. might be), but whether one of your meeting night topics could. I couldn't figure out how to do meal planning or backpack packing for an opening ("Patrols, Line up by Food Pyramid to Salute the Flag!"?), so I settled on first aid. But if yeh don't like da masked gunman, I can understand that. Feel free to substitute a lad carryin' a bunch of boxes of glass bottles (to salute the flag with?) and trippin', sending glass shards around to cause injuries or something. Boys love moulage, and it makes first aid trainin' far more realistic than flashcards. Even recommended by da BSA. Da idea to turn the opening into some sort of unexpected mock first aid drill is great, but it would take most of the meetin'. I'm clearly not "getting it", though, in terms of your meetin' plan. And I like seein' different ways to do Scoutin'! Can yeh give us the details of your 90-minute meeting plan to teach "campout planning, how to pack a backpack, basic health issues for camping, basic first aid for camping, and the basics of menu planning" plus something else taught during opening and closing? It's da first meeting night after you welcome new crossovers on your schedule. I'd really like to see that. Beavah P.S. LongHaul - thanks for checkin' on the use restrictions on the document. I would like to share it around, but don't want anybody who put in that much effort to be upset with me, eh? (This message has been edited by Beavah)

However, that does not explain how you would get consistent program information and course content. What is your solution to that? Yah, I'm not interested in that, eh? I'm a NFP Service organization, not a McDonalds. My goal isn't to make a consistent hamburger, my goal is to be of service to da local Chartered Organizations and volunteers. To help 'em make different hamburgers, and an occasional tofu or chicken burger, usin' their local, home-grown ingredients. But other folks are right, eh? If yeh really care about sameness, then yeh used fixed media. Printed, burnt, or podcast. That gets yeh identical delivery. We could do that with a robotic SM for da Scouts too, eh? Da tradeoff is that it gets yeh very little by way of uniform understanding, and is usually duller than watchin' cows graze. Beavah

Yah, captainron, yeh clearly have been spendin' too much time in da Issues and Politics forum, eh? I'll confess, though. I'm just a whack job . Mrs. Beavah sometimes thinks I'm convenient to have around. Then again, sometimes I reckon she wishes I'd go jump in a pond! B

We don't "put" a boy anywhere. He joins the patrol of his choice and which has invited him. Yah, that's one option, eh? One I'm sort of fond of. But there are plenty of troops who do put lads in New Scout Patrols, eh? Rather than lettin' 'em join an existing patrol of their choice, or even letting existing patrols "invite" them when they cross over. That's who I was askin' the question of, naturally. B

Yah, there's a bunch of new questions in my mind, now. Why were the ASMs planning the winter campout? Where were the Patrol Leaders? What I might consider is whether an individual patrol still wants to go winter camping. In that case, they should be helped and encouraged to run it as a patrol outing, eh? Da SM doesn't have to be there. Once a patrol or two starts having fun and success with bad-weather campouts, the others will come around. Or perhaps yeh don't have patrols? Or a PLC? Beavah

If you were given the task of getting basic training to all 61,600, so that you could reasonable insure that no matter where they were each got the same program information in an effective learning format, how would you do it? Oh, I might license individual corporations in the local area of each of the units. Those local corporations would be able to develop community contacts and resources, and they'd understand the local culture and challenges and the needs of the individual Chartered Organizations. I'd authorize them to provide services and training, enlisting their own experts or contracting with other local agencies as necessary. To help 'em out, I might also provide some training guidelines and syllabuses to give 'em a place to start from. I might even call 'em "Councils". B