Beavah

Yah, sure, BA. Easiest and fastest one for me to grab is da SPL Handbook, starting on page 86. The BS Handbook, PL Handbook, and the SPL Handbook do not explain the Methods, Aims or Mission. And for that, yeh should look at da SPL Handbook, where those things are explained startin' on page 26. They're also part of the SM's first discussion with new youth leader in the TLT syllabus. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, dah medications thing is a nightmare for both camps and schools. A lot of times camps get caught up in the same regulatory environment as schools and day care operations. And the statutes and regulations around this stuff have the health laws conflicting with the school laws sometimes, and everybody writin' policies willy-nilly. It gets tough because a lot of the kids' meds can be abused, and even have established street markets in illegal trade. The tendency of BSA camp directors is to just follow NCS or state guidelines without really thinkin' about whether they're reasonable in that context. IMO it really is a nightmare, one I'd be very reluctant to put a young staffer in front of. Beavah

Yah, I hear yeh, le Voyageur. But yeh know, Scouting is an opportunity to teach, eh? And the kids are experiencing the same sort of creeping loss of liberty. Zero Tolerance policies. Intrusions based on peer-on-peer sexual harassment policies, hazing policies, bullying policies. Surveillance cameras and law enforcement officers in schools. Mandated curriculum and testing. Reductions in driving privileges by age. RIAA nuisance/extortion lawsuits against fellow teens. Restrictions on what they can do in Scouting that sometimes make no sense and that grow every year. It's telling that a politician like Ron Paul has quite a following among young people. Stick with da program. Teach the Citizenship Badges. Prepare the next generation to do a better job than we did. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Beavah

Blech! I'm not really sure what we're talkin' about anymore. Seems like an unfocused set of complaints about unit and council volunteers or somethin'. Units are obviously not populated by volunteers interested in learning the Scouting program or their specific role in it. I agree with this. Units are populated by volunteers interested in trying to do a good job for kids, and dealing with the challenges of the week. They're usually actively negotiating different roles among different leaders, not tryin' to conform to somebody's ideal model. That's where they are and where they should be. They're likely to blow off or not implement a cookie-cutter training that doesn't fit their immediate need. Perfectly normal, human response. Trainers do not always deliver the information completely....The Councils all have the exact same syllabi. They are designed to be delivered ... This, to my mind, is da real problem. Learning and education is not about delivery of information or anything else. It ain't an operation for UPS. Learning takes time and practice and experience. If yeh think that anyone is really going to learn in a one-day or one-hour talk session, you must be a child of da sixties and still smokin'. At best, they'll take a couple ideas away from such sessions - quite possibly wrong ideas or misconceptions, just because they latched on to one part of the talk but didn't "get" the part before it. How many folks learned how to paddle a canoe from a Saturday indoor class about canoe theory? Why would we expect anybody to learn how to run a Scouting program from a Saturday indoor class about Scouting organization? Learning takes time and practice. Learning takes a small bit of "telling" and information "delivery", and a lot of coaching, and a lot of encouragement, and a lot of practice and developin' experience. Yeh know. What we do with kids every day, eh? Beavah

Yah, thanks, OGE. You're NE Region, eh? I don't see your stuff. But I note that you're also claimin' to have the highest percentage trained in da nation or somesuch, so I reckon you're out in front on the requirements curve, eh? Be interestin' to see how that works for yeh. I expect you're not gonna see a sudden surge in membership numbers or high-quality programs, eh? And if yeh did, I reckon it would still be hard for larger councils to replicate. Heck, an awful lot of districts are like SMEagle819's, eh? The three-out-of-ten figure is of course skewed because of da Cub Program, particularly Den Leaders. There's a lot of 'em, eh? And they tend to be fairly high turnover compared with the upper division programs. In da end, I sorta agree with BW, eh? The success of a program usually depends on a few highly dedicated and skilled folks in the program. Ain't an effect of trainin'. Not really an effect of program materials either. The correlation comes from the fact that highly dedicated and skilled folks tend to be lifelong learners; they take trainin' and read books and seek out effective programs. The challenge is findin', recruitin', and selecting such people. But this ain't a new problem or anythin'. Been this way since I first joined, back in da Jurassic Epoch. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, well. Da Buckeyes are nuthin' but a bunch of nuts, eh? Not to interrupt da fun, but goin' back to BA's question: Where did you come up with that list, and who put it in order? How did "Coaching" end up where it did? Da list is from a combination of BSA materials, WB21C, TLT, and the PL and SPL handbooks, eh? The order is presented the same way in all of 'em, with "coaching" second on the list because it's an adult-directed style one step removed from telling (da follower is unskilled, but you have time to coach rather than just instruct). Just as jblake points out in detail, eh? You'll also see 'em listed as a square with two axes, one for youth skill level, one for level of "urgency". It's called da Hersey-Blanchard leadership model in the real world when it's taught in stuff like J-in-KC's peartree partridge classes. Coaching would be the style to choose if the youth were unskilled in the task, but the task wasn't urgent so yeh had time to coach. BobWhite is right in that there's no formal "hands off" style in the H-B model, which addresses situations which require some kind of leadership. I was simply tryin' to emphasize da BSA materials which under Delegation do say "get out of the way." In the case of a routine task, that means hands-off, eh? 'cause no external leadership is necessary when a skilled person takes on a routine task. Beavah

Yah, BobWhite, do yeh know of a council that has required training for all direct contact leaders? Seems like what I've seen so far is mostly a requirement for da unit leader or for at least one person in the unit. Which of course would make your percentage figure off, eh? B

Evidentially under B-Ps method the boys from Brent Allen's troop in Georgia and the boys from Beavah's troop in Minnesota would have little in common when discussing year round preparation for camping and hiking. Yah, I dunno, eh? Do they have snowshoes and blackflies down there in da Georgian hills? Now most folks say we both talk funny. Does that count? B

Yah, BobWhite, I think maybe we're not bein' clear enough for you. In terms of leadership styles, we have, in order of "directiveness": Direct/Telling Coaching Persuasion/consensus Delegation Hands Off What you're saying is that for a routine task like packing up in the morning or handling a rain shower, a good SM should use Coaching rather than Directing/Telling. So you're goin' one step down the list. We're saying while that might be a step in the right direction, it's not the right style to stop at. Keep goin' down the list to get away from adult-run styles (of which Coaching is one). For a routine camp task, yeh should be all the way down at the end of the list, eh? Delegatin' it to the kids, and Hands Off! Either that, or yeh should be asking why your scouts have low skills/expertise in such routine camp tasks, that they need hands-on adult coaching. The "telling" and "coaching" styles are only used for when folks have low skills, eh? What I've often found is adults have a hard time lettin' go. They think they have to be doin' something. If they're not out their coaching, they don't feel right. It's a tough habit to break, which is why it's good practice to let the lads camp away from adults, eh? Beavah

Yah, MarkS and infoscouter, I'm curious. In your methods of goin' about things, how is it that da committee is able to rank the various candidates? How many of the committee are both trained and experienced? Have they really watched each candidate in action so as to be able to make an honest evaluation? Do all your committee members go campin' and sit in on TLT and such? In my experience, the people who really get to see a potential adult leader in action are their fellow scouters and the scouts. They've seen 'em "under fire", they've seen how they live the ideals even when tired and deprived of coffee. They've seen 'em make safety decisions. And they've seen their level of real commitment to youth leadership. A lot of times MCs seem to make decisions based on whether he/she looks nice and is polite at committee meetings. Or at least they'd have a real hard time bein' accurate in rating more than half of MarkS's example categories. How do you avoid this trap in your approach? Often the troops like jblake's and Lisabob's that really 360 the thing do the best jobs with sceenin' and selection, IMO. Yeh need ways to get substantial input from kids and adults with more contact and experience than the average MC. Beavah

Yah, hi dScouter! Yeh ask some good questions. As others have mentioned, the normal setup is that da council has a licensed physician as camp physician. For all practical purposes, that person is your "medical control" for care at camp until you have need to access the county EMS system, in which case you naturally fall under county medical control. In quite a few state codes or regulations, this kind of setup is mandated, so the arrangement has statutory effect. An interestin' question comes up in terms of medical malpractice coverage. This is a paid position, right? Or are you actin' as a volunteer? I can't give yeh specific legal advice, eh? But I'd say yeh need to confirm that BSA liability coverage is goin' to apply for medical malpractice in your role (if you're paid), or that volunteer immunity and good sam provisions in your state are goin' to protect you (if you're not paid). And of course by "paid" I mean "compensated in any way" as you know. Find some local folks to give yeh a definitive answer you can be comfortable with; don't settle with anybody bein' "flip." Hopefully, your council has dealt with this before and has all the information in a file somewhere. The way states handle this stuff is all over da place, so yeh really need a competent local to advise you. Beavah

Yah, dah life of a District or Council Commissioner, eh? I'd recognize it anywhere! I always think about it in two ways: 1) For this unit or this person, right now, what is da next step? Not a giant leap, not stayin' static. The next step. 2) For this unit or this person, what's the best thing I can plug 'em into to liven things up after they leave me. Another SM I can introduce him to? A training? A book? A suggestion for a joint event? An invitation to midnight campfire chatter at a site? Da OA guys who keep the data on statewide campin' ideas? I reckon I feel about da same way as Eamonn does about the canned training. Not sure it really has any traction. Just too remote from where they're livin' their Scoutin' life. Sometimes, if I prod a scouter to goin' to some training, I tip off da trainer to the issues in the unit so they can customize a bit. Don't know if that helps, but maybe. Often, though, I've found da best trainin' is just campin' with someone for a night with kids, and introducin' a gentle thing or two by example. Beavah

Gosh you would think that someone who was "doin' their best" would at least attend training for their job wouldn't you? I can't speak for others, eh? But I sure wouldn't make that assumption. Not without first takin' the time and effort to understand what da issues are. To talk to folks and get a sense for the obstacles, or how they were handlin' it differently. And not until I'd actually established that the trainin' itself was worthwhile and had positive effects on unit program. Is a person who did da Catholic Church 3-hour YPT but hasn't yet gotten around to doin' our YPT really not doin' their job? Da ARC WSI not doin' his job because he hasn't sat through SSD yet? Is da trainin' offered only once every six months so there are conflicts? Does the unit do internal trainin'? Did the person choose to go to WFA rather than this year's IOLS? Are our council's trainin' records even close to accurate? Is da person workin' flat out in a strugglin' unit just to keep things afloat, so we need to go to them? And on and on. If a unit is struggling, we go help 'em where they're at. The fact that there's an adult showin' up at the meetin' room door means someone cares, and is doin' the job. The rest is all about service. Beavah

Anyway, for those interested in wild trainin' alternatives, here's an interesting article base on da MMO idea I proposed a few messages back: http://www.americasarmy.com/intel/article.php?t=271086 Beavah

No unit ever failed because of having a strong CO and trained leaders who followed the program. Yeh ever heard of ScoutReach? Trained professionals as leaders. Infusion of outside resources to help. Yet they fail all da time. Fact is, it takes a lot of things to come together to make a unit work, and almost all of da units that work adapt "the program" in some way or another. Gotta admit I'm a little miffed that this whole thread wasn't really lookin' for ideas, but was more of a setup so we could keep poundin' on da claim that there are bad volunteers out there. Lots of folks contributed interesting thoughts and suggestions just to end up with "it's volunteers not doin' their best?!!" Seems like a Scout is Cheerful and Kind, eh? I know a heck of a lot of volunteers. They're great people. They run some wonderful programs. All of 'em have their weaknesses and challenges, but let's celebrate da good things, eh? Small and large, struggling and hyperactive, seat-trained or not, I'd stack da weakest troops in any council I've seen against da soccer and hockey crowd in terms of the long-term benefits the kids get out of it. Anybody who's givin' their hour a week per kid for somebody else's kids is doin' their best in my book. We're here to be of service to kids and each other, of course. If we see weakness, we begin by lookin' at ourselves, and improvin' personally where we can. Then we look at what we have the talent and ability to change. If we find some local weakness in program, and after observin' troops and listenin' to people and considerin' all kinds of perspectives we really feel that the point of breakdown is trainin', then that's where we should be puttin' our volunteer time. Do the marketing study, find out why people really don't come rather than guessin', revise our district's trainin' program so as to meet the real need rather than just deliver a can. BSA gives us da flexibility to do that. So if you're findin' that need in your area, address it. I reckon that's lots better than blamin' the customer. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

To think that you can ignore the rules you dislike and obey the rules you choose is unnacceptable in any civilized society. It is hypocritical to the Scout Oath and Law. Nobody was talkin' about anything like that, BobWhite. Da point is to understand which things are rules and which are not. And often, in countries like ours that have so many rules it takes dozens of volumes to list them all, it takes a social understanding and bein' Mentally Awake to know which ones are significant. Good citizens take a few minutes to understand how da system works and what the intent of the rule was. Dat's why we teach the lads Citizenship, eh? It's important to understand how the system works. Da Congress and the Courts do not have to obey the Executive Branch, eh? No matter how many Executive Orders get issued. The legal structure and "citizenship" of BSA Scoutin' is what I described, eh? That's how we became the biggest and best youth program in America! A unit Scouter's duty is legally and ethically only to da CO. As for CO's and such, I'd be happy if they were reached out to before they were required, eh? Often I reckon SE's view CO's as a nuisance, and would much prefer to stack the "active" board with their own picks. DE's are supposed to do IH visits at least once a year, eh? In decades of Scoutin', I think I can remember one DE who was diligent about that. He left in under a year. Poor performance evaluation because he was spendin' his time on that sort of service rather than Popcorn and FOS. There's a lot of room to improve how we're friendly and welcoming and respectful to da IH's and COR's, before ever needin' to get to requirements. I reckon most CO's feel da only real voice they have is through da Relationships Committees. Beavah

The following update is from Rubina Haroon, our WOSM Regional Director for Africa Region in Kenya. Please continue to keep our Scouting brothers and sisters in East Africa in your prayers. Beavah Dear Colleagues: As you may be aware, last week saw three days of demonstrations called for by the Opposition, which resulted in 13 people killed in Nairobi alone including a 10 year old girl alledgedly shot by police in Kibera. Due to the level of violence, the Opposition have now called off mass demonstrations and have called for economic boycotts of businesses owned by Kibaki supporters, one of which is a bus company. There is speculation about the effect of this boycott but there will definately be a repurccusion on the average Kenyan worker with people not being able to go to work. I also now understand that there has been a call for another mass demonstration on Thursday despite the previous cancellation. Reports from Kibera remain much the same - people are still angry and feel "cheated" by the election results and are not going to stop actions against the Government. We are expecting former UNSG, Kofi Annan to arrive in Nairobi tomorrow to spearhead talks with both sides and can only hope that he will be ale to do what others have not. This morning on the BBC there was an interview with a Kenyan who claims that several overseas investment projects have been cancelled and at the coast, tourism is at an all time low in the normally busiest season of the year. Schools have reopened in some parts of the country, but most parents either cannot get their children to school or are not comfortable and keep them at home. My son's school was closed three days last week and I am expecting it to be closed on Thursday if the proposed demonstration goes on as scheduled. We will go to the office today and have our regular weekly meeting with staff. I am counting on their analysis of the day-to-day situation especially in Kibera to decide what happens the next day. I will also try to see the Kenya Scouts to ascertain what they are planning to do. I understand that some Rover Scouts have been helping with the displaced people across the street so they will have a eyewitness account and feel for the temparature. The UN continues on the higher alert for the country and UN "non-essential" staff have been advised to work from home. I have a meeting with the UN this afternoon to work on a strategy for assisting youth affected and perpetrating violence in Kibera and other slums. This is being doine in coordination with the Red Cross and other NGO's, but has yet to get off the ground. We can only hope and pray that there is a reprieve in sight for Kenya and her people who are suffering considerably. Best, Rubina M. Haroon Regional Director - Directrice Regionale Africa Regional Office - Bureau Regional Afrique

Yah, the point is that BSA program resources are not the same thing as government laws passed by elected representatives, eh? So a speed limit comparison is spurious. It's not da right way to think about a unit volunteer's relationship to the BSA. A unit volunteer is an agent for the Chartered Organization, offerin' a youth program to meet the CO's goals. To help with that, the BSA provides resources to assist in that mission. There's no mandate to use all the resources or methods. You don't even have to buy a handbook or own a uniform. There's no requirement to do everything the same as other troops. There are a few rules & regulations so as not to harm da value of the BSA's program to other groups - rules about membership, rules about not usin' trademarked materials inappropriately, etc. Those are da things we may disagree with, but go along with as a condition for licensing the program. Those are the things da BSA occasionally takes action to enforce. For the rest, it's pretty open, eh? Some units run fantabulous outdoors programs. Some not so much. A few run sterling Patrol Method; many, not so much. Some value spit-and-polish uniformin'; some, not so much. Some units run age-based, and even kick kids out of Boy Scouting at age 14, others run traditional and keep boys to 18. All these things are BSA Scouting. Fellow citizens in a common movement, tryin' to do somethin' special for kids in our local area and organizations. But there is a common community ethic and character. A shared sense of personal choices that enable us to recognize each other whether in uniform or not, outdoors or not, advancing or not, working toward different goals or the same. It ain't tied to a policy or to program resources. In fact, it isn't tied to da BSA at all, but joins us to our brother and sister scouts across the world. On my honor, I will do my best... Beavah

My confusion? Da SPL in the cabin I believe was Robert's example of how he would behave with an SPL on a campin' trip, eh? Rather than bein' directive, he'd use a coachin' style. Jblake responded I guess I'm not that keen on that much pre-directives to the boys, not even the SPL. Too often these directives can be seen as adult-led and I'm constantly working to make it boy-led....If I am making pre-decisions, giving guidance, determining outcomes or prodding along the way, then I AM THE LEADER and am taking a leadership opportunity away from the boys. Jblake's response is consistent with da BSA literature and trainin'. Rather than da coaching style, we recommend a persuasion or delegatin' style would be more appropriate for this kind of task. That's not "throwing away" da Styles of Leadership, eh? It's tryin' to choose the style which is most appropriate for the task. When knowledge is high, as it should be for an SPL dealin' with a simple camping chore, then the persuasion or delegation styles are more appropriate. Doesn't matter whether the example is fictional or not, eh? Da way to think about it is the same. And it gets back to the OP's original notion of whether "in charge" reflects the sort of spirit of servant leadership appropriate for Scoutin'. A coach is an "in charge" leadership style. Can't see where anybody was talking about First Class Emphasis in this thread. Can yeh explain what yeh mean? Beavah

Yah, not sure anybody is bursting emotionally, eh? To answer your question, I'd say yeh have an overconstrained system. A bit like asking for a full-sized SUV that gets 100mpg, can park in small spaces, and can tow a large boat. If I'm understandin' your criteria correctly, we want local personalization, rapid dissemination that matches the schedules of new unit leaders so they're trained promptly, hands-on, standardized, and high quality in terms of both learnin' and presentation. And cost-effective in a way comparable to the current very inexpensive volunteer delivery system. Can't be done. So I reckon you're better off askin' us specifically about what problem you're tryin' to solve, eh? Does your council have weak trainers? Or is getting new leaders to training difficult? Or is training not havin' the effect you desire? Or are we just kickin' around ideas we wish Irving would consider, as a sort of fun exercise? Throw us a bone. But to toss out random ideas: * For creative new delivery system, try MMO which would get yeh rapid dissemination, somewhat hands-on, standardized but perhaps also customizable on a regional basis, and perhaps more thorough. But very large development costs and perhaps some adoption problems for us old farts. * For local personalization and cost effective, do what we're doin'. If yeh want a bit more standardization, incorporate video presentation pieces like Red Cross. Dat's probably as good as it gets. * If you're in a council where yeh have concerns about da quality of training, most often it's not just a case of folks not followin' da syllabus, it's a case of folks who aren't that knowledgeable on the topic or on how to teach. Just takin' Trainer Development and havin' the training yourself ain't enough, eh? In that case, I think yeh gotta set aside low cost and make a real push to recruit new folks, solicit outside contractors, and invest in higher levels of trainin' for your council and district folks. More PTC courses, send a half dozen each to LNT Master and Risk Management and WFR, etc. Pay for it. Da reason people give us FOS dollars is so that we can invest in our people, eh? * If you're in a council where yeh have trouble gettin' people to trainin', you're probably thinking about it wrong. Yeh gotta take training to them. Not schedule a session twice a year. Recruit more trainers and be creative. Beavah

Baden-Powell required that a First Class Scout be 14 years old Yah, this is da salient point, I think. If First Class really represents a lad's independent skill and comfort in the outdoors, and if da journey getting there is going to be active, and fun, and kid-friendly and exciting in all the ways the Founder intended it to be, with other Methods than Advancement actively employed... Then it probably takes a fair bit longer than a year, eh? Which has the salutary effect of gettin' 'em to First Class around age 14, right about when Ages & Stages tells us they're ready to step forward and assume positions of leadership and responsibility. But as Kudu mentions, BP's notion of First Class was much more focused on Learning than on testing or teaching, and therefore quite a bit more rigorous than many BSA troops achieve. We forget that the journey of self-directed and rigorous and fun Learning is also supposed to be our first and most important step toward advancement, too. Beavah

Yah, BW, I can't tell if you're askin' for innovative new methods, or whether you're like me and support da current BSA program delivery model. Seems like yeh want da current delivery model to do somethin' it's not designed to do and will never be able to do - present a standardized talk that's uniform across da country. If yeh want that, you give folks a DVD. Now, if you're askin' for innovative methods, I think da best yeh might come up with is a well-done MMO environment. It would be interactive trainin' on demand, with levels to attain and plenty of opportunity for application and practice. Sorta a condensed and simplified environment for "real life" trainin'. Youth leaders could participate, too. Could be fun. Beavah

Do they grow a pretty good crop of Nits in your neck of the woods, cuz yer pikin' a pretty good crop here, eh. The situation I responded to was a small example of a common camp situation, and as I am sure you know the point was simply to show you can talk to a scout and get things done by asking nonabrasive questions rather than ordering kids around. Nah, no nitpickin', mate. Just friendly observations on how to think about da materials so that we all can do a better job with kids, eh? I reckon' jblake's got a good point. Any SPL I've ever had or seen would have found those questions pretty abrasive. Better to model other techniques in that situation, IMO. Or if such a high level of coachin' is necessary, that reflects some weakness in TLT or in basic skills development that should be addressed by da program. Especially since yeh said the SPL had likely been through multiple TLT's and such. Maybe, as you suggest, too much emphasis is bein' placed on teaching only the advancement requirements in a Handbook, eh? Perhaps with more focus on da other methods of Scouting kids will pick up on simple camp tasks like cabin cleaning. Just a thought. Beavah

Yah, RangerT. If it makes yeh feel any better, da de-professionalization in favor of special interests isn't confined to the Interior Department, eh? Justice, State, and Education have all gotten clobbered. As has science policy across departments. A big "Thank You" to you and the other professionals who have stayed at their posts despite what's goin' on in your respective departments. Your fellow citizens owe you a debt of gratitude. Beavah An old-con Republican who wants to see his rivers and beavah ponds kept clean for his great-grand critters.

Not everyone has the skills and characteristics to be an effective scout leader, just as not everyone has the skills and charcteristics to any job you can think of. I both agree and disagree with BobWhite's notions here, I think. Certainly there are folks who don't have a knack for workin' with kids. B-P often talked about da need for scouters of the "right sort." And certainly there can be some terrible tension introduced when a "warm body" with a different vision than other folks takes a position in a unit. In units I work with, I always coach takin' a "long, slow, look" before puttin' anybody in a kid-contact position. So, I'm curious how different units have gone about selecting/approving unit leaders and assistant unit leaders. Yah, yah, we all can read da BSA pamphlet on "how to select," with needs assessment and steering committees and all that. Just go to scouting.org in da supplementary training modules section. No need to quote it to everyone here, eh? Just real stories/suggestions/policies on how your units have done it. Beavah