Beavah

My prayers and sympathies to our LDS colleagues on the death of Church President & Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley. May the Great Master of all Scouts welcome him home, and continue to guide and teach his church through his successor in service. B

Yah, Lisa'bob, I think the citizenship badges and the other book-work required badges are the toughest, eh? Sometimes yeh gotta let 'em sit and percolate. Citizenship in the World I've done with many lads. I always try to do it in the context of an international trip, small or large. Hey, Canada's close, eh? They even talk funny up der like me! Other kinds of international trips and exchanges are even better. The youth plannin' for 'em are checking State Department stuff, getting passports, learning about the embassy's role for helpin' travelers, dealin' with foreign exchange rates, etc. With only a wee bit of adult jiggerin' to arrange a visit here and there (from a local official, droppin' by a consulate, US-AID or RC office, etc.) , the natural course of their tour can really give them great experience with different international views. That can be really rich, eh? It's still a bit one-shot (unless yeh can get a lad to do 2-3 such trips), but it isn't bad. Of course, with older boys in the troop/crew and fellow international scouts contributing a lot to the younger ones' understanding, a lot of work gets done for yeh. Let's see now... da best Cit. Comm. counselor I knew used to work with two different troops (his sons went to different units because that seemed best). In one of the troops, the kids were pretty involved in service projects, and those seemed to lead naturally to contacts and things where they got informed of or involved in some local issue and plugged right into Cit. Comm. without really thinkin' about it. The second troop, he used to keep an eye out for local news or controversies that appealed to kids - school boards/school issues were good ones, sometimes city council or such. Then he'd kinda interest a bunch of kids in that issue and they'd be off pursuin' it in some way or another (and along the way, without really thinkin' about it, they'd earn Cit. Comm.). B

The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law. - Vision Statement, Boy Scouts of America

Overprotective?? you bet. I just don't think that a new scout who has just crossed over (10 or 11yrs old) needs to be turned loose for a week, with people the barely know.. Interestin', Buffalo. And a good topic to "pop" now while troops are takin' a lot of crossovers. If four months isn't enough to get to know and trust troop leaders, what would you suggest? For comparison, how do you feel about trusting your child to a teacher all day every day... one that you quite possibly have only just met? Or one of the summer day camp or sports camps? Is the issue that makes you nervous only the overnight aspect, or is it the out-of-doors? Would a year of middle school (where the boy actively pulls away from mom & dad) make a difference? I reckon it does for homesickness; boys who do their first summer at camp after 6th grade are rarely homesick in any serious way. Would that work for parents too? Do folks think that parents of oldest children think about this differently than parents of new scouts who are 2nd or 3rd children? If so, would it help to have troops designate a dedicated "experienced parent" to talk to? B

Well, GW, it's even more humorous in that what got zapped was the "Birds in the wilderness" song, waitin' for the Moderator Patrol. I think da anonymous staff member at least had a sense of humor, eh? Or perhaps a sense of irony? B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, sorry OGE if I used imprecise language, eh? When definin' a continuum, though, you're defining a line by naming its endpoints, eh? Can't say I rightly know what to call that... I tried division, but perhaps distinction? dichotomy? differentiation? Pick a word that works for you. Mostly I've found that folks sittin' around a campfire together try to respond to da person's meaning, eh? Though perhaps I was subconsciously respondin' to how divisive a couple folks want to make everything. I'm still curious about da thoughts of other regular posters. I'm of the mind this is really an online or scouter.com thing. Never heard such speculation anywhere else, which is why I'm curious. Certainly it's not been a part of any BSA discussions I've been aware of or party to. Beavah

Yah, Lisa'bob, I think it's helpful to coax your scouts into narrowing a bit. In some programs, I find the youth narrow by selecting activity. So, for example, they decide on mountaineering, or cycling, or sailing; then that helps them to go find possible venues and narrow it down to one or two. Troops & crews that do this tend to run regular "superadventures." That might not work as a whole-troop trip, or it might. Another great way to do it seems to be what your troop did in the past and choose venue. So they choose Yellowstone or Britain or New Zealand and then they go make contacts and put together an interesting set of activities. I know a couple of troops that do that for summer camp, eh? Select a camp in another part of the country and turn it into a 2-3 week adventure. I think there's great touring to be had in every state and nation, eh? But if you're in the upper midwest, yeh probably want to head for another region at least. If you're thinkin' summer, I'd avoid the south and southwest unless you're on water. Consider Northern California and Oregon - Redwoods, rugged coast, climbing, whitewater, pacific crest trail, funky hippee culture, Crater Lake, mountain biking, discussions about logging, Shakespeare festival (hey, gotta have an in-town day!) etc. Or consider New England, perhaps, cycling, canoeing through Concord and Lexington, freedom trail in Boston, sailin' the bay, heading north to sea kayak in Maine, tour a lobster boat, go hike Katahdin or Mt. Washington. Winter in New England also could be fun if you've got skiers and snowboarders and snowshoers and ice climbers; then hook up with Scouts Canada in Quebec for some multilingual exchange. And of course Hawaii - volcano tours and climbs, mountain biking, surfing/snorkeling/scuba, sailing, etc., and Alaska - whale watching, sea kayaking, hiking, fishing, mountaineering and more. Overseas of course is now quite expensive because of the dollar's decline, eh? Doesn't look like that's gonna do anything but get worse. Still, European flights are common enough to be reasonable. Kanderstaag in Switzerland is a great Scout destination, combined with some touring in the Austrian and Italian and French Alps. When the violence subsides, the WOSM regional center in Kenya makes a good jumping off point for the African experience - Mt. Kenya, the Rift Valley, Masai and safaris, Baden-Powell's grave, traditional sailing on the coast. And on and on, eh?! Boy, you've got me inspired now! Time to be feedin' these ideas to other frozen scouters around here, eh?! Beavah Beavah

There are posters who have perpetrated a hoax on many members of this forum A preacher spreads the word of God he does not claim to be God....Not everyone likes that message, largely because they have either been mislead by others These are weak and sad distortions of the truth, and I am hopeful that at some point these poster will tire of misrepresentations Many of the things I supposedly said were fabricated by the poster to misrepresent me (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Yah 1333! Welcome to the forums, eh? Congrats on being elected SPL, and kudos to your troop for doing exciting things to attract so many new boys. What have you and your SM talked about so far? Some of us might suggest it's time to spin off a new troop! BobWhite gave you one possibility that often works well for troops that get as large as yours, eh? It's patterned after the way the LDS church approaches Scouting, and might be comfortable if you've got some Mormon kids comin' in. If you think about it, what this approach does is accept the thing that you don't want to see happen - the older scouts pulling away - and institutionalizes it. The older guys become a separate patrol, and the PLC becomes guys of mixed age and skill over time. Another way to think about it is to say, "hey, we're doubling our troop, so we'll double the number of patrols." If you've got 5 patrols currently, spin off 5 more, maybe based on older scout APLs becoming new PLs and some of their friends joinin' 'em in the new patrol. Then add the new guys to patrols based on their friends and who they seem to "click" with among the older guys. What you end up with is a PLC made of experienced scouts, and each patrol having a mix of older and younger boys. The young guys learn from all the older boys by example and by some teachin' and coaching along the way. It makes patrol competitions more fair and fun, and really helps with the kind of bonding you're talking about. The older guys really get to know the younger guys and vice versa. Now, the danger in your first year of doing that is that yeh really have to get all your PL's on board in terms of "service leadership", and the rest of the current scouts as well. Leader training for your PLC members is a must. With so many new guys in each patrol, it's going to feel like "babysitting" to a PL if his other friends in his patrol don't help out - at least until the new guys skills improve a bit. Which is the goal, right? Patrol competitions really help, because they give everybody in the patrol a challenge - the PL gets a leadership challenge, the other older scouts get a support challenge, the young guys get a skills challenge, and they all have to work together. Think Hogwarts houses and points for the House Cup! Your job as SPL becomes helping set up things like those patrol competitions, and helping each of the Patrol Leaders as they develop skills leading the younger guys in their patrol. Part of your role also becomes making sure your hard-working Patrol Leaders have some adventurous fun of their own in conjunction with PLC meetings and perhaps high adventure/leadership training. Make sure it's not all work! No matter what, this is going to be a great challenge for your current troop members! I think it's really exciting and you'll have a great time with it. And in a year, when the next round of new guys comes in and this crowd joins "the experienced hands" in each patrol, you'll be amazed at how great your troop is. Beavah

[beavah slapping tail up and down on frozen pond] Congrats! And a big thanks to yeh for takin' on the hardest job in Scoutin'!

Yah, Its Me.... I'd say less than a true honor, more than a credit card application . PTC is the BSA's main venue for trainin' the folks who are going back out into the councils to contribute and train others, eh? So it's a recognition that your council thinks you're valuable, or at least trainable . As the BSA's premiere site, most of the sessions get very high marks. Plus, you get to meet other great folks in your area of interest who make for good contacts. My experiences with the Center have been almost (but not completely... there was this once...) positive. I'd say well worth pursuing if yeh can afford the time. Beavah

In the parent thread, hotdesk and GW asked about some specific MBs and how to counsel them in ways that were more "natural" and in keeping with the Scouting Game motif, rather than makin' 'em like classes and school. Kid self-directed "play" as much as possible. I couldn't answer them well because I don't counsel any of those badges, eh?! So I'm hopin' folks will jump in on badges they happen to counsel, and maybe we'll hit the ones they asked about along the way. Beavah

I think there is a Scouting Philosophy Continuum, but its end points are not Scouting as School or as a Game. On one end of the Scouting Philosophy Continuum you have what I will call the Classic BSA Philosophy. The Classic BSA Philosophy is based on adherence to the Policies and Procedures of the BSA and the published Training Syllabi. Proponents of this philosophy see the BSA as a national organization and believe that Troop in Florida should have the same organization as a Troop in Maine or Hawaii.(elcted Sentior Patrol Leader, Patrol Leaders, PLC, New Scout Patrol, etc)... On the other side of the Continuum is a more relaxed approach. More of a Laissez Faire Philosophy. In this Philosophy BSA policies and procedures are seen more as guidelines and as long as the Chartering Organization is on board, then just about anything is ok. Proponents of this philosophy tailor their program to the individual needs of the unit and follow the intent of BSAs regulations, if not their letter. Yah, the above was OGE's conjecture from the parent thread, eh? I'm curious what others think. For my part, after I thought about it some, I'd say I've not really seen this division or continuum very much in the "real world" of Scouting I've known. Mostly folks recognize each other as brother and sister scouters, pull up a log around da campfire, and share the magic of Scoutin' with each other. Everyone recognizes that different units do things differently and almost everyone recognizes that each of us makes some adjustments in how we play the game. Heck, that's what makes those campfires so darn interestin'! I think this "division" is just an odd quirk of online forums; maybe just this one. How do the rest of you feel? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, hi guys! I've been asked this so I'm curious. Do each of you moderate particular forums? So, for example, Eamonn takes "Issues & Politics" and hops takes "Patrol Method" or somesuch? I expect folks would like to know.... and know who handles which, eh? Makes it easier to properly direct our comments. Beavah

Are yeh really thinking those are two different groups, BobWhite? Because in my experience they certainly aren't. In fact, da best unit leaders I know - the ones whose boys (and girls) have high skills, who age out of the program only to become assistant unit leaders, who have reasonable and meaningful advancement, etc. - those are da folks who are often most critical of weaknesses in BSA structure or programmin', eh? Because those are the folks who care the most. Beavah

Folks, we don't further our purposes here in the forums by poking at others or picking apart their postings and publicly chastising them for their views or the manner in which they communicate. We're seeing a lot of that lately and it really doesn't make the forums a fun place to visit. Not to pick particularly on Beavah, or Bob, or anyone else in particular, but you all know in your heart if you're participating in this practice of belittling fellow Scouters. Before you hit the submit button, please take a moment before to look over your posts to see if there's anything there that others might regard as not friendly or not courteous, or otherwise not aligned with the Scout Law. -FScouter ------ Yah, I'll add my two shillings, eh? I'm delighted to see a more proactive moderator response to posts that try to get in digs at fellow Scouters, imply they are frauds, or untruthful, or not BSA Program supporters and all that. To my mind, that sort of bullyin' does have no place, whether it comes from me, or BobWhite, or FScouter's recent posts. I'd be delighted to seem 'em all change. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

And in the dark of night in our car on the way home from various scouting events over the years, I've had the most amazing and sometimes even profound conversations with my son about why people pray, different practices and forms of worship/belief, the nature of our creator, whether or not "hell" is real, and a host of other religious topics. These often spring from some comment or action that happened at a scout meeting or camp out, and usually he starts these conversations, not me. There it is. That's the ticket, eh? I reckon faith should as welcome and comfortable a part of Scouting as it is a part of people's lives. Expressed, talked about, used to inform choices, present in thankfulness and celebration, comfort in hardship and sorrow. It should just be... normal. One of the things that's part of us. I confess I like it when I see units do more than the minimum in most areas, but this one especially. Yeh can tell an Eagle Candidate from a troop that made "Duty to God" something meaningful, to be thought about and struggled with. There's something powerful to prayer in the backcountry meadow, to putting your hand to service in a project and then putting your heart to service in prayer for those who need that kind of "project." I don't reckon good parents indoctrinate children, eh? If they do, all they get are rebellious teens. . But good parents do teach children, and share with 'em. Whether it's how to do arithmetic or sayin' the Our Father together, I expect it's an act of kindness to teach kids what we know. I encourage most units to think more deeply about how Duty to God and Reverence fits in with their "lived life" in Scouting. Beavah

Miserable adults are the reason Yah, this is the second half of the First Way approach, eh? If the outcomes aren't what yeh want, blame the adults rather than lookin' at the whole package. Seems like that response goes hand in hand, eh? I suppose I'm blamin' the adults, too, in a way... but only for an incomplete understandin' or havin' a vision that might not be quite what it could be. An opportunity for growth, but not miserable . Isn't safety afloat a lesson plan? Isn't safe swim a lesson plan? Isn't the older scout teaching the younger scouts a class? A set of merit badge requirements is a curriculum. All those things can be turned into school, sure. If that's the way we view things as adults. But we don't have to view things that way as adults, eh? EagleDad talks about this more eloquently than I do. On the one hand you can organize a class as a TG and ASM, and the lads can be taught the 8 points of SSD and the reason for 'em. On the other hand, you can just go swimmin'. The older boys run SSD. Middle boys follow it. Young boys pick it up by watchin' the example of all the older ones, eh? And by small pointers and coachin' along the way. The first is more like a school, or those inane waterfront lectures we all sit through at the start of camp. The second is more like a family, or group of friends - rather than designating one teaching authority and class time, everyone's in on the act. As It's Me points out, it's more like a video game. Dat's probably the only resemblance this thread bears to OGE's notion of a continuum, eh? I think OGE's continuum is unrelated to the school/game thing, except in one way: if an adult really feels that all competence comes from authority, then they'll probably be more likely to set up an adult-as-teacher school situation, to emphasize that. Aside from that, lots of very orthodox BSA types are advocates for the Second Way. Merit badge requirements aren't a curriculum, BTW. That's not their function. They're an assessment - a test. In Scouting, the curriculum should be far richer than teaching to the test. Beavah

One of the best canoeingcounseloirs I ever saw was a fellow who was building his own canoe in his garage. (when a scout came to work on the MB they started by helping him build the canoe, as he glued or sanded or even helped clean up the counseor talked to him about the different types of canoes, the parts of the canoes and what their function was, he showed them his other canoes and how they differed, while shaping and sanding the paddles he would explain the differnt strokes. he talk about his canoeing adventures and share photos of his trips. he showed them pictures of the currents and how to read them. They would work on the canoe several times before they ever got in the water, but when they got in the scout was prepared and could practice and apply the things he learned in the "classroom" of the counselors workshop/garage. Thats good counseling! What I'd point out is that there's nary a word in the whole thing about what the kids are doing - it's all about the adult. The adult talking, the adult showing, etc. The one spot the kids are engaged it's in helpin' him build his boat. I reckon that's much like da First Method, eh? Just done better than summer camp because there are fewer kids and more time. IMO, Scouting isn't about instruction. It's about learning. One comes from adults, and is "pushed"; the other comes from youth, and pulls us. IMO your friend could have done a better job layin' off the war stories and even the garage, and gettin' the lads on the water. Let the questions and the tales come from them. Let the learning be from example not lesson; coaching and encouraging and lettin' 'em fly, not "telling." Even better if they're in a group with different abilities learnin' and playin' and teachin' each other. But you're right, I was more talkin' about learning within the troop, eh? The thread did spring out of FCFY "curriculum". Nobody's sayin' that PL's don't have a plan for a canoe trip, and I can't imagine why anyone would think they'd be unsafe. They've made First Class, right? So they know Safety Afloat, right? The lads should be perfectly safe then, eh? Unless they were only instructed in Safety Afloat, rather than actually learning it through example and practice?? In fact YOU PLANNED in the scenerios you gave. Sure. I planned not to worry about it, and let the Patrols handle it. Of course, if a PL came up with a class and a lesson plan, we might brainstorm other options. Sometimes it's hard for them to get away from School, too! Beavah "We do this through the fun and jollity of Scouting; by progressive states they can be led on naturally and unconsciously, to develop for themselves their knowledge. But if once we make it into a formal scheme of serious instruction, we miss the whole point and value of the Scout training, and we trench the work of the schools without the trained experts for carrying it out. - Lord Robert Baden-Powell

Neither one follows the Scouting program methods....followed by hundreds of thousands of Scout leaders since him... just...evidently...not all of them.... dig, dig, dig... There are variety of better ways than either of the methods we are offered in the opening post. Of course there are other ways! Feel free to contribute your favorite to the discussion. I don't know where you get the idea that it isn't encourgaged, that's the standard summer camp model. Indeed it is. But, "to the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor. Group instruction [is encouraged when] special facilities and expert personnel make this most practical, or when Scouts are dependent on only a few counselors." However even then it should be followed by attention to each individual scout. Dat's from a National Exec Board policy statement, eh? Not sayin' group instruction ain't permitted, in those occasions when it's necessary. But it shouldn't be the norm. Beavah "In Scouting, a boy is encouraged to educate himself instead of being instructed...." - Lord Robert Baden-Powell (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Beavah I'm in charge of Family Life at the district MB College starting on Saturday. With all the requirements that tell a scout to Show, Discuss, and Explain to the Conselor how would you apply your second method to that badge? Yah, good question hotdesk. I think all of the citizenships (family, community, nation, world) and a few of the other required list (personal management) get pretty tough. Family Life is probably the one where you want a parent to be MBC, eh? For the others, it takes some real creativity to work it into the game sometimes. I'd love to hear folks' ideas. Now, for T-2-1 skills, hopefully we don't have to be very creative, eh? If T-2-1 has the right requirements, we should be doin' those things all the time. We should be able to do that stuff the Second Way without any problem, eh? No need to put all the 6th graders together in a class. No need for adult lesson plans and learnin' sets. Fact is, lesson plans and teachin' the First Way is hard. Ask any real teacher. I hear tell it takes you a few times teachin' something that way before you're any good at it at all, and yeh sorta need to have a knack for it on top of that. How many boys have we seen stumble through tryin' to teach a "class?". For that matter, how many adults have we seen drone on? Betcha folks who do that have all kinds of "quality control" steps, eh? Plus those methods were developed for schools with mandatory attendance and such, eh? Where every kid gets taught every lesson in order. Apprenticeship, though, that's a different thing. A boy can show another boy how he does somethin'. A lad can see a tent that ain't quite right and show another how to fix it. A younger boy can watch what his older Patrol Leader does and emulate it without a syllabus. No need for a plan and a "lesson". Not if you've got a Patrol. I reckon that's what BP and Greenbar have been tellin' us through the years. And I reckon that's what da BSA means when it says "A fundamental principle of advancement shall be that the boys' progress is a natural outcome of his activities in the unit." It's learning, fer sure. But it sure ain't a class. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Recent discussions have had me thinkin' about somethin', and it seems like time to pull it into a different thread. I reckon we all think of Scouting as educational in some way, eh? In that we want kids to learn. A funny thing seems to happen, though, because for most of us, our experience with learning has been school. Certainly that's what da kids think, too. We're all familiar with school. Here's one way of doin' Canoeing MB: Boy arrives at summer camp. On first night (or in advance), he registers for Canoeing MB Class. The class might have prerequisites (like passing swim test or the outdoor first aid stuff), which if he doesn't have done means he can't register. Adult MB counselor prepares syllabus and curriculum. Boy shows up at regular time for class. Day 1 adult gives lecture on Safety Afloat. Boy has written homework. Day 2 adult gives lecture on canoe parts, paddle parts, entering and exiting boats. Kids practice as directed. Perhaps by Day 4, adult may have games to play to help practice strokes and such. Adult gives tests. Tests are limited to curricular learning goals (requirements). Kids cram for tests and pass. Kids get diploma for class. Course registration, prerequisites, syllabus, lesson plans, learning goals, homework, tests, lectures, need to "cover" material in a specified time, prefer to have everyone same ability level learning together, once you have diploma you're done. The School Method, eh? Here's a second way of doin' Canoeing MB: Patrols decide to run some canoe trips. Boy signs up because it sounds like fun. No classes, no lesson plans, no curriculum. Boy learns how to canoe from older boys in his patrol/troop giving him pointers, by watching the older boys, and by canoeing! Boy learns about Safety Afloat by watching and listening to older boys. Boy learns terms not by memorizing them, but by figuring out what "grab the gunwhale" means when an older boy points to it while helping him get back aboard. Over time, a canoe MB counselor watches the boy successfully launch and land a canoe, use the paddle strokes properly, etc. When the boy has learned how to canoe, he'll have demonstrated all the requirements at some point to the counselor, and Presto! will get the badge as an acknowledgment of his ability. By that point, he will have demonstrated each requirement multiple times, and there is no need of creating a either a test or a retest. The boy just knows how to canoe - both da formal "requirements" and all the other tricks and techniques and knowledge that go into canoeing. It will take as long as it takes; there is no schedule. ***** Yah, yah, in da BSA program, the first way is permitted but not really encouraged, even though it's very common. The second way is intended, but less common. I reckon that's mostly because schooling is so familiar to adults and kids, eh? We tend to fall back on it. So while da BSA's program clearly leans toward toward the second, traditional scouting approach, its actual program often runs toward the first, more school-like approach. Which way do we think is really Scouting as we want to see it practiced? Beavah

Yah, Trev, it ain't my question, eh? That was Pappy's question. I'm just the dreaded Thread Spinster. B

Yah, this is da spot for folks who want to talk about G2SS interpretations and policy/legal/etc. issues over adult-less meetings, hikes, outings and whatnot by patrols. See the parent thread if yeh want to talk about the learning/youth leadership/patrol method merits or demerits of such adult-free activities. B

In the parent thread, jblake asks: I wonder how many SM's who believe they run a boy-led, patrol-method, troop would actually allow a patrol of boys go off for a weekend without the two-deep leadership? ...For those who would allow it in certain circumstances, what limitations would be placed on these boys or would they be allowed to actually lead themselves and make their own decisions for the weekend? Well, how 'bout it, lads and lasses? Do we allow patrols to camp or hike on their own? Under what circumstances? Is that even a level of understandin' and self-confidence we care about getting kids to? If they can't handle things on their own, can we ever really make 'em responsible for leading and teaching others? Wouldn't that just be make-believe? Note: For those who want to discuss G2SS or NCS policy or guideline issues/legality/whatever, please use the spin-off thread below so this one can just focus on the youth leadership/patrol method issues, eh? Beavah