Beavah

Yah, I don't know. I had a friend who built a new house, on land he owned. His neighbor had liked da view he had when the lot was all trees. So he sued my friend to try to force him to tear down the house and replant the trees. No joke. Suit took many years, appealed up da chain, cost my friend tens of thousands of dollars. I think it's OK to fault the guy who brought the suit, no matter what the courts rule. As citizens, it's true, we are free to take anything to court. But as good citizens, we shouldn't. We should reserve da court system for serious, unresolvable disputes. Even if we're "right." I've got neighbors with bad habits. A few annoy me a bit. But in a lot of other ways they're good neighbors. In a diverse society, some things, like Christmas decorations, aren't worth gettin' in arguments over. If I don't like the lights on my neighbor's house, I can shut da blinds. If I don't like people with hats on in restaurants, I can ignore 'em, get take-out, or go to a more expensive restaurant for old grumps like me. But I reckon I would be a poor neighbor and citizen if I insisted on takin' everyone to court over trivial stuff just so I could have things my way. Fact is, I could get my way doin' that more often than not, because other folks would give in rather than pay the cost needed to defend themselves. So in that way, I think criticizin' the ACLU and any of the 'partisan' legal groups for their actions is fair game. Lots of lawsuits can be filed just to try to get your way by threat and intimidation. And lots of arguments shouldn't be arguments. They should instead be polite disagreements between neighbors. Beavah

Yah, I reckon this is an odd courtesy thing that really isn't universal even though some folks think it is. In western states and places like Texas, males wearin' hats indoors is often accepted. Seems I remember LBJ wearin' a cowboy hat at the Democratic Convention there, eh? Cooks, food serves workers, and waiters in many restaurants are expected to wear hats indoors as a condition of employment service. Even OGE's Catholic example doesn't hold that much water. I've been to Catholic ceremonies for kids where the bishop is wearin' a big hat or a yarmulka in the church da whole time, and Knights of Columbus are in uniform with hats and swords and fezzes and whatnot. And of course if you're a jewish lad or leader, wearin' head covering would be what is considered respectful and courteous, not the other way around, eh? In outdoor circles, there's an informal rule if you're in da field that if you wear a hat you keep it on. Part of Leave No Trace. Saves everybody lookin' at your matted, greasy hair. Lots of workin' folk follow that rule, too, if they go out for a drink after work. Seems like that rule should apply to summer camp, eh? And of course da BSA Insignia guide specifies that headgear be worn inside for formal ceremonies and service, as F indicates. So I reckon this is just one of those things that was probably never universal, and has become more rather than less acceptable with time. Me personally, I think courtesy is defined by how we treat others, not so much by what we wear, particularly if we're not trying to make a statement with our clothing. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, did I catch that right? Your hubby has been votin' against you as troop treasurer? Sounds like it's time to send him to bed without supper! Joni, da culture you describe in your troop happens more frequently than we'd like to admit, eh? There are a lot of enabling parents and enabling scout leaders out there. Sadly, I reckon that rather than teach boys character, they teach boys how to manipulate people to get their way. IMO, the only way to use the Advancement Method well is to pose real challenges to boys and to hold to 'em. In workin' with units, especially ones with a big advancement focus, that's probably the best advice to give. If yeh want to get a lot out of the program increase your expectations for advancement. Make 'em a real challenge that any adult would look at and say "wow, that's really impressive for a kid to be able to do!" If an adult walkin' in off the street doesn't have that reaction, yeh probably aren't doing things right. And if an adult's reaction is "gee, that's really lame and sleezy" yeh definitely aren't. That having been said, as Advancement Chair you can be a voice for change, even a crusader, but yeh have to work with these people too. You bein' the roadblock won't get your troop to where it needs to be. Yeh have to get the other folks to "see the light". All the adults in da program have to share a common vision for what they want for kids - that means either they all compromise a bit or da CO directs things one way or another. Either way, it means that they talk about vision. A lot. So I'd join Ed in sympathizin' with you and cheerin' you on - I think your vision is the better one here. Then I'd join Lisa'bob and the rest in sayin' you may need to adjust your tactics a bit. You want to get folks to buy into your way of thinkin', because you won't get far by storming at them. Changin' the culture of a program is hard work. Find some allies - go ask your district for a UC who is "tough" on advancement to come help. Go talk to da SM of a local "strong" troop which uses advancement well and ask him and some of his boys to come by and visit your SM at da next camporee. You're trying to make converts, not enemies. Beavah

Yah, OK, I think I've got it tied now, eh? What you describe is pretty much what I had been envisioning. If yeh pull on the redirect loop, do the first two loops collapse (eventually untying if they aren't attached to a fixed point like a harness)? Sort of resembles a double fisherman on a bight? It is an interestin' thing, eh? B

Hi RangerSteve, I think all Scoutmasters ponder and cogitate over da logistics of elections or appointments to patrol leader and troop positions. I reckon if we surveyed da group we'd find everything from one-month-adult-directed-rotations (for PL of New Scouts) to election of PL's for a full year or more. SPL elections by the whole troop or by the PLs or by appointment, 6 month or 1 year terms, ASPL succeeding to SPL automatically or not, etc. All have their upside and downside, merits and demerits for a particular troop at a particular time, eh? What makes any of 'em work, though, is stability and predictability. The guys have to learn and figure out the system and buy into it. It's got to be seen as bein' fair in that way - not something that gets adjusted too often. I reckon it's pretty rough to change things mid-year, eh? An awfully nasty thing to do to the boy who has worked hard all fall to be ready to take over as SPL this spring, and is lookin' forward to it and counting on it. Whether they said it out loud or not, I reckon the other boys would feel a sudden shift from that to be pretty unfair. So my advice is that yeh need to set up a system that you think will work and be fairly stable, and resist the temptation after that to "fiddle." Those two lads who are your SPL's this year I reckon would have been able to work things out between themselves without you fiating the split-term solution, eh? Doesn't matter as much what the system is, so long as you stick with it even if yeh get an outcome that you don't like. Da simplest system, and the one recommended, is just elect an SPL every 6 months, eh? One boy wins, another loses, live with it (I'm not sure the losin' candidate really should serve automatically to avoid hurt feelings?). But it sounds like yeh might like one where the ASPL is elected, serves 6 months, and then becomes the SPL for da next six months? That's fine, as long as yeh can live with it. But whatever da system is, set it up and then stay out of it Mr. Scoutmaster! Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, hmmm.... Gotta agree with John-in-KC here, eh? That menu strikes me as bein' a bit inappropriate for a Klondike. Leastways up here an older scout would send it back for revisions. I actually breathed a sigh of relief when I got to readin' the lunch. I reckon takin' a look at Okpik training for some of the adults might be a good notion before runnin' more winter campouts. IMO, campouts and other high-energy events are not the time to try to be dieting or introducing brussel sprouts. Yeh shouldn't both up the activity level and drop the calorie count simultaneously. Gettin' 'em out and running around is going to do a far better job at controllin' appetite, burning calories, and avoiding obesity. As far as menus go, yeh can make almost anything in the field that yeh can at home, particularly on a weekend or car-camping trip, eh? Just take your favorite recipes from mom and give 'em a go! B

Yah, hmmmm.... Da old "A Picture is worth a Thousand Words" problem, eh? I got confused from the get-go, though... I thought that like the Butterfly, this can be tied mid-rope. But it starts with an overhand, which has to be tied usin' a running end. 8} Is the overhand tied on the bight? Then the bight is passed through the overhand and tied in an opposing overhand, as thought it were a sort of Fisherman's knot? Tryin' to picture in my mind, but it seems like that would compromise the first overhand? But maybe not. B

Yah, well, at least yeh didn't have to live through the adult "blow out" yourself, eh? You've got the right notion, ccrumpton. Pull in the resources yeh can, use the "good" adults, get folks to training. Don't expect the rest of this year to be perfect, eh? Take it in stride, get everybody to laugh about it and just have fun. If yeh let it be stressful and not fun you'll lose good people. The kids at that age don't notice so much what we do as the attitude with which we do it. It's going to be nutty, and a bit disorganized, with everybody learning (adults especially!). Make that be "OK" for all your folks. Be friends first. In terms of resources, I bet some of da old Cub folks from back in your previous stretch are still in town, eh? I think they're your best resource. Ask 'em to come back for a few committee meetings and to do "hands on, on-the-job" training for your current folks to help 'em get up to speed. That's going to be more flexible and prompt than district training, and probably more helpful. Not that yeh shouldn't do district training as well! But don't forget those other great resources you know. Don't ask 'em to run events (or at least not more than 1 as a "trainer") or you'll scare 'em away. Just ask 'em for help teaching the new folks. Good luck with it! Beavah

Yah, depends a bit, eh? The pre-puberty lads really benefit if yeh keep things as light as possible. Post-puberty lads get proportionately stronger with much better muscle endurance, and can carry adult-like loads. Fitness of the lads really matters, too! I've never been crazy about the % body weight rules of thumb for that reason - the variance between kids is just too high to make that useful. It way overestimates for the unfit/heavy kids and is almost impossible to live by for the lean/light kids. Biggest thing is not so much "what" but "how much". Most parents tend to encourage extreme overpacking, eh? Should be just one T-shirt, one pair of shorts, one set of layers. No separate-changes-of-clothes for every day/separate jacket for every weather condition. Nylon wind/rain shells rather than big coats. Do your backpacking with the younger guys in warmer weather where yeh don't need as many layers. A lexan spoon and a plastic bowl is all yeh need for meals (along with your water bottle and pocket knife). Leave the soap, shampoo, deoderant, etc. behind. Of course then there's other common sense stuff - dry pasta and powdered sauce meals, no cans, bottles, or food with water content. Repackage all food into plastic. Small headlamps not 4-D cell maglights. Small tents or flies rather than the 3-4 person beasts. Reasonable mummy sleeping bags rather than big, incompressible, lined, rectangular Walmart specials. Small toothbrush and toothpaste tubes, not da big guys. And leave da cast-iron dutch oven at home. It helps if yeh get a big scale for weighin' packs and a small postal scale for weighin' items. Helps kids and adults consider the tradeoffs. Any site on "ultralight" backpackin' will give yeh additional ideas, but be a bit wary. Da ultralight crowd trade experience for no gear or sometimes fragile/finicky gear. We in scoutin' don't have the same luxury because the lads don't have the experience yet. But some of the ideas are still good. Beavah

Yah, are yeh goin' to share or leave us all hangin'? B

Yah, mumofscout, thanks for the info. Practically speakin', there's no way for your son to do any more as he's past age 18 and now past the 6 month BOR limit. So ignore my first suggestion, eh? From what yeh describe, the BOR was conducted at the troop level, so the appeal goes to the District Advancement Chair if your son chooses to pursue it. If your son has a hard time writing, it's OK if you help him or even if you file the appeal. It's important that yeh stay respectful, and simply detail how yeh feel he met each of the requirements, where communication may have broken down, how hard your son worked, and how he struggled to overcome his personal challenges. No need to follow any set format or form. As BobWhite suggests, a lot may depend on exactly what was communicated to your son as being deficient in his first appeal/BOR, and whether he truly addressed those expectations in the "3 month challenge" you describe. If they "moved the goalposts" between the two BORs, that's something a committee can see clear to correcting in an appeal. A call to your troop's committee chair or to the district representative at his BOR should get you an outline of the reasons the board felt it appropriate to support the SM in not endorsing your son for Eagle, and yeh can ask for it in writing. You or your son should address their concerns in your appeal if yeh can. Anticipate it takin' a month or two from when you file to get an answer from the district. After that, if you choose to pursue it further, yeh can appeal to council in the same way. I have to say that while you should pursue it, yeh should also be prepared for "no" as an answer, eh? When the SM and troop committee don't endorse a candidate and the district rep. supports a decision (twice), it's a fairly strong signal. Behavior issues are tough ones, as you admit. Good luck with it again, Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Hard situation, daddio, and one that's been goin' on for a bit I see from your other posts. Easy answers first: If the fundraising dinner is a CO event and the CO is running the bar, you are not going to be able to change that. Yeh can have your son not attend, of course, if yeh think that seeing adults drink alcohol is bad for him. But yeh gotta let that issue go. The second thing to recognize is that what you think as a parent, and indeed what all of the parents think doesn't matter. Leastways, it doesn't matter any more than it does at your son's school. Parents don't control the school, it's a service provided by professionals and an elected board on behalf of da taxpayers. Parents don't control the troop, it's a service provided by the CO. They get to decide the leadership, period. So, to replace your CC, yeh go to the President of the Chartered Org., which I assume is a VFW or a social/service club like Moose or such (?). Recognize that if the CO agrees with you and ousts the CC, you will also lose the SM, the ASM, and at least a few of the families, and generate a lot of ill will. It might kill the troop. Recognize that if the CO doesn't agree with you and opts to keep the CC and the SM, you've burned your bridges and sunk the boats. For all intents and purposes, you'll have to remove yourself from the troop. Now, are there other options? Yah, maybe. What jblake suggests might be one, but only if it's conducted in a low-key, friendly, focused way, eh? Not a litany of different complaints, but rather a "hey, we'd like to move toward the BSA recommendation of one campout a month" (or whatever your chief complaint is). Getting a general consensus on a reasonable, non-threatening "step" is a step, eh? As jblake says, though, it takes everyone bein' willing to set aside personalities, and it takes a really savvy "referee." My guess is that you're too "hot" to participate in that approach if it's gonna work, eh? Which leaves you with the Start a New Troop option. You've expressed a willingness to be SM. Now yeh need an ASM, a committee, and an organization to sponsor you as their youth program. How about your church? Beavah

Yah, hi mumofscout. Welcome to da forums. Can I ask how old your son is? Does he have more time to work on things or will he shortly be past his 18th birthday? Can I ask whether your son's EBOR was conducted at the troop level or at the district? Calico is right; at the conclusion of the EBOR they should have given him information on what work he still needed to do, and what his appeal options were. They do this orally, but should then follow-up in writing. I think if your son still has some time left, a good route might be to go back to his SM and keep working on things, eh? We can all improve, and his Eagle will mean more if he convinces those who know him best in the unit. If the Scout Spirit issue turns around some more serious behavior - bullying, negative influence on younger boys, crime committed in the community or in the school, then that's rough, eh? Most of us would want quite a bit of time to pass to demonstrate the lad had "turned a new leaf." In any event, it's a bit hard to answer your question because your terms are a bit off. Typically, if a SM doesn't sign an application, then that requires an appeal. That may have been what happened the first time, rather than a BOR (?). But at this point, I'm going to assume that the Scoutmaster, the Troop Committee, and the troop-level Eagle Board of Review did not approve your son. In that case, the appeal goes to the district advancement committee. You, and/or your son, simply write a respectful letter detailing the issue and why you feel the decision of the BOR should be reversed, and deliver it to the District Advancement Chair to be considered by the District Advancement Committee. Include any documentation yeh feel is appropriate. It is polite to copy the board of review chair and the SM and committee chair of your troop. If your son's EBOR was conducted at the District level, or if the district denies your appeal, you may appeal to the Council Advancement Chair/Committee in the same way. If I may suggest, as a parent, it's sometimes worth taking a deep breath, stepping back, and looking at bigger lessons. Occasionally, as Calico suggests, weak or odd BSA adults are just playing games with kids because of their own issues, and that's what the appeals process is for. More often than not, though, the adults are good people who are trying to teach your son and other boys in the troop lessons about behavior and responsibility. Stop to consider whether there really might be some lessons here that may be hard, but are good ones for your son to learn now rather than later in life. Has he really been the best example and leader he could be in his troop? In the rest of his life? I expect that's something for your son to answer personally. If I may also suggest, appeal letters always look best when coming from the Scout. Good luck with it, eh? Beavah

LOL Yah, dat's novel, eh? O'course, by that rationale, Sea Scouts can't award Star or Life despite what ACP&P says. After all, requirement #1 for Star and Life is "be active in your troop and patrol". Therefore, you must be registered in a troop, and, ergo, not pursuing Boy Scouting Advancement in a Sea Scout Ship. Just isn't the way it works. All of the Venturing awards - Silver, Ranger, Quartermaster, Quest, etc. can be earned by any Venturer. Though I do recognize this is an area where Venturing Division of the BSA and some Sea Scouters have disagreements. Personally, I think lads and lasses interested in Quartermaster get a much better experience pursuin' it in a Sea Scout Ship. But in many parts of the country Sea Scouts are as rare as feathers on cows, eh? And a crew might well take up adventure sailing for a superadventure for a year that puts 'em in the path of the road to Quartermaster. We don't stand in the way of kids doing good things. Beavah

Yah, Sea Scouts like to think that, eh? And yeh gotta love their in-the-BSAs-face hudzpah sometimes. But my words were an exact quote out of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures. Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer - #33088D, p. 39 To return to my real point, though, I don't much care for quibbling over such minutia, fascinatin' as it can be. I think if a skipper and a Ship Committee think doing a Bridge of Review is the way they'd like to handle Star and Life in order to be consistent with Sea Scout advancement procedures, that's a reasonable call on their part. If a different Ship opts to do the Board of Review by the Committee, that's fine, too. We're a franchise that's about serving kids, not serving hamburgers. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... That was an interestin' round of irrational personal attacks, eh? I reckon Merlyn has run out of rational arguments. Self Moderation Engaged... Beavah participation in thread terminated B

Yah, if yeh don't have patience then I think yeh follow your wife's advice, eh? She sounds like a wise lady. Let your son get out of it what he's going to get out of it. With solid skills developed at home, he'll probably be quick to be a leader in the troop and then he and his new buddies will push it where they want to take it. The troop does sound like it's doin' some adventurous stuff that will give fine opportunities to your lad - whether it's Seabase, a cool summer camp, or a December lake canoe outing. I reckon the last would provide plenty of opportunity for a savvy lad to participate in leadership, eh? So stay away for the first year. Let your son find his own place without you makin' noise. Keep up your family outings, too, but let him show you his stuff, let him solo hike, etc. Give him skills to take back to his troop. After your son has found his place, your family trips are gonna start to fade, eh? He'll just be at that age. Come on his troop stuff when he invites you or when they ask for help. Let him invite his friends and troop buddies on personal/family outings, and let 'em work independently as a patrol when they're with you. He'll still end up with a great experience, just different. I reckon they'll push their troop along with new ideas, then, eh? And you won't be tempted to be a nuisance to other families who are happy with their program. Can't help yeh on the "start a new troop" option without knowing your area and market, and whether you have time in your schedule for another full-time (non-paying) job without disrupting your life and family. Beavah

Yah, not sure I understood that right, jblake... are you suggestin' adult leaders not eat on campout weekends? For my part, I wouldn't recommend that, eh? I figure adult leaders have to Be Prepared and alert for the needs of the boys, safety, etc. Adding an extra challenge/burden/stressor just doesn't seem prudent to me. There should be enough activity on a weekend that it beats the office anyway, without tryin' to "crash diet" when we're responsible for kids. Maybe I didn't understand? Beavah

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Yah, yeh know... I was actually supporting you, BobWhite. I'll be sure not to do that again, eh? So, if yeh want to be formal: * Star, Life, and Eagle are Boy Scout Program Awards * The current Boy Scout Requirements book is the official source for all Boy Scout Program Requirements * The Boy Scout Requirements book clearly states that BOR's are to be conducted by the Ship Committee. * No unit is permitted to add or subtract from the requirements. * The Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures booklet provides guidelines which apply to all program divisions. * Sea Scouting, despite its independent character, is a Venturing Division program and Sea Scouts register as Venturers. * ACP&P clearly states that Star and Life Boards of Review are to be conducted by the Ship Committee. * Sea Scouting does not get to determine how Boy Scouting program requirements are to be interpreted. Oh, yah, and BTW, yeh didn't get the earlier bit right either, eh? Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer. So Venturers in a crew can earn Sea Scouting recognitions just as Sea Scouts in a ship can earn Venturing Recognitions like Silver or Ranger. Sea Scoutin' ain't "unique" in the way you describe. If yeh want to be formal. I reckon most folks just do what makes sense for their units and da kids in 'em, as RangerT describes. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, well... It's also called "shrinking dollar value because of enormous trade deficits and national debt." And perhaps "lack of any sort of reasonable energy policy leading to demand for oil from despots and villains." B

My apologies to all for attemptin' to answer Merlyn and thereby continuing the thread hijack. Hot Foot Eagle raises some interestin' questions. I think it's really hard to quantify some of the answers, eh? In some areas, we've taken some real PR and financial hits. In other areas, we've earned some real PR and financial bonuses. I reckon our overall preference is not to be on da front lines of the cultural shouting match. B

Yah, OK, so I spent a few minutes wading through the HUD CDBG regulations. It's important to understand the way these things work, eh? The Department issues grants to various organizations and agencies that are applying for monies to meet the goals and purposes of the Act. The BSA in each of the cases mentioned is not a CDBG grant recipient, eh? Rather, the cities of Santa Maria and Colorado Springs are the grant recipients. As grant recipients, the two cities agree to HUD regulations that prohibit discrimination between program beneficiaries based on religious belief. The BSA itself is not a party to the HUD grant nor directly subject to the HUD regulations. The municipalities in each case allocate HUD grant monies according to the local needs and the terms of their grant and the grant regulations, hiring contractors like the BSA to provide services. So the cities hire a contractor to repair HUD housing units, or hire a group like the BSA to provide soccer clinics. It is altogether likely that the BSA was never asked by the cities to certify non-discrimination based on religion. Just not the sort of thing that typically comes up, eh? If Merlyn has any real evidence that the cities demanded and were given such a statement by one of the BSA councils, he should feel free to share that, eh? But thus far, it looks like he has not been able to produce any. Ergo, no fraud. And, to be honest, Merlyn's accusations of fraud sure look an awful lot like libel. Significantly, as I read this, the cities could still choose to contract with the BSA. There is no obligation that an individual contractor not discriminate, just that the city in its administration of the grant not discriminate. A city, for example, could use several different contractors to provide the same services to different groups. The city could contract with a Muslim group to provide counseling services to Muslim residents, a Christian group to provide counseling to Christians, and a University to provide counseling services to everyone else. In fact, I believe that sort of thing happens relatively frequently, especially with denominational contractors like Catholic Social Services. So long as the city did not discriminate in provision of services, the individual contractors may indeed discriminate or be used to provide 'targeted' services. So if the BSA is providing soccer clinics for the faithful Latino community and Boys & Girls clubs are providing soccer clinics for other program beneficiaries, I'm not sure there's necessarily any problem here at all. At least not any federal one. And of course we'd need a real, live program beneficiary to truly be discriminated against in order for this to be actionable, eh? I reckon Merlyn hasn't found one of those. With the recent federal court rulings on standing, I'm not sure Merlyn would have standing to bring a complaint, eh? Once again, it seems like Merlyn's case is badly overstated, eh? Beavah

Yah, hi DugDirt. Welcome to da forums, eh? And welcome back to Boy Scouting! Quality and style of Boy Scout units is goin' to vary a lot between different troops. Sometimes better, sometimes worse, sometimes just different. The first thing yeh have to do is give up the notion that your son's Scouting experience is going to be like yours. It hopefully will also be "great", but it will definitely be different. One of the things that's happened in the years since yeh were a lad in the program is that there's been slow "creep" in a number of ways - Creep toward more adult-run and organized activities. Creep toward more direct parent/adult involvement for "safety" (and just because parents aren't as trusting as they used to be). Creep toward more rules/regulations. Creep toward more rapid, easier, school-like advancement. Creep away from the Patrol Method and patrol competitions. Just the way the world has been goin', not just da BSA! Since you don't have any other choices in a troop, I think yeh sign your son up with enthusiasm. At the same time, you promise yourself that for your son's entire first year, you will not comment or criticize in any way, except to offer praise or thanks for something done well. Yah, yah, and of course for any gross safety issue. Like yeh say, you don't want to be that obnoxious "new guy." Yeh have to build up some relationships before any idea yeh have is going to have any chance of growin'. So here's what you do instead. Yeh volunteer to serve where they need you, but you'd like to be involved with the boys in some way. You take training, and you talk the SM and other ASMs into coming, too, if only so that you don't feel lonely . All the training - right up to Woodbadge. Be enthusiastic. Go out with 'em for beers after going together to district RoundTable and share your memories of your scouting experiences without judging them. Listen to their views and perspectives and get fired up by their vision for Scouting. Ask your DE who the best youth-run troops are in your district and suggest all the adults and the SPL/ASPL go visit that troop on a campout just to get more ideas (and invite them to visit yours). Honor the accomplishments of the current leaders. Bring respect for them and the huge volunteer effort they've already given to the program and continue to give. And then contribute what you have to offer, but don't be telling them what yeh think they should do; just be exposin' 'em to enthusiasm and new (and old!) ideas. If yeh get into the role of an adult leader, your fellow scouters should be your friends. You're right, there's room for improvement here, eh? But there's room for improvement in every troop, includin' the old one you remember fondly. Never forget these boys are going to remember this troop fondly. After your first year, your son will have found his place and you will have built up some relationships. Thank your new scouter colleagues for your son's first year, and especially for the most memorable moments. Then sit together and consider the one or two things the troop needs to work on in your "year 2" to do a better job. Not all of 'em, just one or two. Volunteer to be "the lead guy" on one of those things. Just like going into the woods, plan on enjoying the trip and relishing in the challenge and the scenery. And, after 7 years, plan to leave it at least a little bit better than when you came. Welcome back to the Adventure! Beavah

Hi ninoniner! Welcome to da forums, eh?! I think it's important to remember that real world circumstances are a bit ambiguous. We want to allow hugs of a kid who needs a hug, eh? The standard for YP isn't that anything could appear to be inappropriate, it's that there's reasonable suspicion that something bad is happening. Folks should report to the SE or to the CO's reporting officer. I expect that's what Source's troop is doin', eh? It's just that Source him/herself isn't involved in that level of the response, which would happen between the CO and da BSA. Beavah

Nah, Merlyn, once again yeh misunderstand. I believe that Berkeley Sea Scouts and da Cradle of Liberty council have a right to offer their services to whichever groups they are able to serve. I believe the test for receiving government monies should be an organization's ability to serve a public purpose or need. Doesn't matter if the people or organizations who serve the public are religious or not, space aliens or not. Doesn't matter if they only serve one of the needs of a segment of da population; we all have limited talents. So giving a scholarship to a girl to attend Wellesley College is just fine, as is giving a scholarship to a boy to attend Notre Dame. Allowing a youth service organization that serves a substantial portion of the youth in your city to remain in the building they built and maintain without charging them additional dollars is just common-sense good public policy. Giving a not-for-profit youth educational group a free berth in exchange for serving some kids and providing you the quarry rock to build the marina is just good public policy. Giving Scouting For All money to provided needed services to the youth it serves (if it would actually stop spending its time lobbying and actually serve some youth ) might also be good public policy. In a diverse, pluralistic society we work on common challenges together, as partners. Da challenges of at-risk urban youth are hard enough without liberal white self-righteous types tryin' to decide which of their fellow citizens are "worthy" enough to be partners in helping children. But anyway, this is a thread hijack, eh? We should let folks get back to the discussion about alternative approaches to BSA's membership policies. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)