Beavah

I'm not sure who you mean when you say: " whoever is ready to accept legal and financial responsibility" Could you explain? Yah, sure. If you supervise or enforce, then under a doctrine of law known as respondeat superior you become responsible for the behavior (and negligence) of those whom you supervise. That's a very simple statement of a complex topic, of course. But it is one of the major reasons why da BSA will never take up this role, eh? If they become the supervisor of units and unit leaders, then they risk becomin' legally responsible for 'em. Right now, the BSA is very deliberately just a resource provider - provide materials, and training, and camping facilities and insurance to the CO's. Yeh don't assume much responsibility when you just provide resources. This is a very intelligent legal risk management position on the BSA's part, and a smart business decision to boot. Yeh can allow a unit/CO or a council go go into bankruptcy from a judgment that exceeds your insurance cover instead of havin' to sell Philmont. If the Catholic Church had a similar model, it would have saved 'em hundreds of millions of dollars by now. Plus supervision/enforcement takes a much, much higher commitment of resources than just providin' materials and training. It's way too expensive, so it's never been part of the business model. In fact, if there's a trend, da BSA is goin' the other way - toward more "pure" resource provision like LFL with the sale of camps in some areas, and the broader resource approach of Venturing. B

Yah, da last line is definitely true, eh? But often it's helpful to talk to folks in order to come to a full understanding of training and materials. That's what friends and fellow volunteers near and far are for, I expect. Don't forget your "near" friends and fellow volunteers, like the unit commissioner and DE and a trusted friend at Roundtable. COs are actually "persons" under the law, because things can't own or operate programs. Such persons make decisions through their designated agents. Whom the CO designates as agent varies quite a bit between COs, which is why the BSA materials are written in the way they are. The proper understanding of the program is that the CO and only the CO approves unit volunteers. That is of course stipulated in the annual charter agreement, and necessary for legal reasons. It's also made clear in the troop committee guidebook (A key function of your troop committee is assisting in the selection...) So da way to understand the process recommended in the guidebooks or training is that the CC signs an application recommending a person to the CO on behalf of the committee. The BSA's guidelines make it the committee's job to screen and select leaders - the CC does not do that "solo." He/she signs only when the committee as a group makes a recommendation. The CO then approves (or rejects) the application/recommendation. That process of committee screening is of course a guideline or recommended practice, and most CO's and units modify it in some way. Some CO's do not use the committee to screen, but may have the IH or COR simply appoint. Some CO's do their own separate screening regardless of what the committee does. Some delegate the whole process to the committee and simply rubber stamp. All that is just minutia for us folks who deal with that level, Victonate, and not something for you to spend a lot of time on. Practically speaking, the way to think about things is that you want any leader transition to be smooth and respectful, with all the necessary parties on-board and well-informed and feeling like they are being treated fairly even if they disagree. How to do that will depend a bit on your circumstances. So after a while of getting the committee ship-shape and a strong unit commissioner involved and strengthened the CO relationship, you might have solved the problems... or yeh might be prepared to make a change in the right way. Beavah

Yah, Victonate, you've got some reasonable preliminary ideas here, eh? To offer yeh any further advice we'd have to know a bit about your CO and committee. As you've noticed, the BSA does not assign supervisory duties to the Committee or Committee Chair in any of its materials. As yeh learned in your training, the troop committee's primary responsibilities are supporting the Scoutmaster in delivering quality troop program, and handling troop administration. The committee does have a role in the recruiting and selection of leaders, but all leaders serve at the pleasure of the chartered organization alone. So the phrase you used that the SM works for the CC and the CO would be incorrect. He/she works only for the CO. You work only for the CO. Think of it like being boosters at your son's middle school. You help with the funds and administration. Coach runs the team. You might have input into selecting a new coach when the time comes. But yeh don't hire or fire or supervise the coach. But if the coach is really awful, you might make a recommendation to the principal. How the CO chooses to handle leadership decisions just depends, eh? Sometimes the CO makes those decisions solely on its own, and the committee has no say. Often all of that is tasked to the Committee and the CO is pretty "hands off". That's a scary place to be as a CC, because then you have to go lots of extra distance to be non-partisan, not interested in your own son above other boys, and well "above the fray." Best is if there's some positive interaction and relationships between the two, as BobWhite suggests. If you're in that position and down the road you feel yeh need to recommend/make a change, there's some ways to do it right that are respectful and proper and maintain good feelings and relationships. But start with working hard on your support job, eh? Beavah

Don't yeh love how we now need laws to allow boys/parents/leaders to have freedom?

Yah, Victonate. Both you and the cubmaster's wife are right, eh? But she's more right. As CC, yeh shouldn't be butting in and micromanaging the SM. Your role as CC is not to give the SM advice - that's the job of your unit commissioner. Your primary job is to run the behind-the-scenes support system for the SM. So if he's a busy fellow and his wife is workin' hard to support him, I'd say the first order of business for a good CC is to try to recruit some ASMs, and to try to mobilize the other committee members to take some of the SM's non-kid load. Perhaps some of the communications or paperwork? Maybe yeh need to recruit an Outings Chair for the committee to help take some of the adult-level planning burden? If yeh haven't done all of that and then some, well, then time to roll up your sleeves and get to work! Ultimately, dependin' on your Chartered Organization and how yeh work, you as CC and/or the committee as a whole may have input on the performance and renewal of the SM. That is something to handle very gently, with a lot of respect and finesse. The man has given years of his life to your program, eh? He's got friends and kids who love him and have stuck with him. Sometimes it's necessary to make a change. I actually encourage units to set terms for unit leaders, so there's natural points where one party or the other can say "hey, I've had enough" or "hey, maybe we might think of switching hats this comin' year." But how yeh go about doing that makes all the difference in the world between helpin' a troop along and tearin' it apart. For right now, mate, yeh need to get about doin' all your job as CC full-tilt. When you've got the Committee humming and the relationship with the CO rock-solid and have pestered the district until they've assigned a really good UC to be a friend to your SM, then you'll have done your part to the point where yeh can clearly see what the additional problems are. Keep up with the trainin' and readin', too, for sure! And welcome to the forums! Beavah

?? Yah, there aren't any "program standards" to enforce, eh? So perhaps the first question would have to be "What would the program standards be?" What do we suppose is "proper" Patrol Method, for example? "Proper" Adult Association? What's our defined standard for "duty to God?" or "physically strong?" How would any of those things be measured? But in answer to the question of who should be supervisor or enforcer, the answer is whoever is ready to accept legal and financial responsibility. Because of course, that's what those things mean. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Welcome, Burnside. I hear what you're sayin', eh? There are indeed some crews and OA chapters (Koshare bein' the preeminent) that do a respectful job at portraying Native American tradition and dance. But the average unit or district who puts on an AOL show with boys dressed in pseudo-indian garb is really workin' off the old white man's odd view of the "noble savages" or whatnot. It tends to be a caricature or "Disney cartoon" version of Indians as Pappy pointed out. I can see where that would be uncomfortable. Rest assured going forward into Boy Scouts the cartoon and caricature elements go away for the most part, so you can think of this as a one-time oddity perhaps. I'd encourage yeh to share your thoughts with the pack committee and CO, though. Sometimes these "traditions" continue (and get more odd) until someone speaks up. Beavah

Yah, I don't want to hijack this, but I'll be quick. Hot cocoa (or gatorade, another pure sugar) are fine choices for a winter campout. Tea and pop, however, is not as good a choice; at least not the caffeinated versions which are diuretics. The lads need both the calories and the fluids in the cold - keepin' 'em hydrated takes some creativity. Now I'm not sayin' let 'em have gallons of the stuff, or that cocoa should substitute for real food. But it should be just fine. Soups I think are one of the best ways to play the nutrition/hydration game in the winter. The cup-a-soup instants work well, and a soup with a meal can be great. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Hi pixiewife! Welcome to da Forums, eh! Ah, your hubby and lad are in for a real treat. Cold-weather campin' is great. No bugs! I'd encourage yeh if yeh can to have your son ask some of these questions of his Troop Guide or Patrol Leader - it will start to get him in the habit of lookin' to the other boys for information. It will also help those boys realize what information they need to be helpin' the new guys with! It's also really hard when we can't see the stuff, eh? There's good foam sleeping mats and bad ones for winter and such. Your son's troop-mates can help with that sort of thing. Also, I think it helps to get to know the mom of an active 8th grade scout - someone who you can talk to and get pointers from who's been around the block once or twice. Seek that person out. Of your gear list, here's just a few quickies: Yes, he can wear one pair of wicking layer long underwear as a base layer the whole weekend. Works fine and is what most of us do, eh? Just use tongs to handle before washin' If yeh can avoid it, don't send him with any cotton (sweatshirts, etc.). Cotton soaks up water like a sponge (or towel!) and cools yeh off rather than keeps yeh warm. Look for cheap, non-cotton "fleece" which yeh can pick up at any discount store these days. His trail pack (or "day pack") can be a large bookbag-type backpack. It's where yeh put lunch, raingear, water bottle, an extra layer for when you stop hiking, etc. Only thing I'd do if yeh want to make him "cool" is look for a headlamp-type flashlight. Much better than any other option, especially since the daylight is short in Michigan, eh? Use lithium batteries, which behave much better and last much longer in the cold. What's gonna happen is your son is goin' to go out with the troop and quickly start to figure out what works for him when he's camping. Mostly, you can trust that judgment. And it gives you a whole pre-made list for birthdays and Christmas and such, eh? Welcome to Boy Scoutin'! Beavah

Personally, I think it's an error to believe that people can be "trained" in Scouting. I can train someone how to do a simple task like change a tire on a car. But Scoutin' is way too complex for that. As close as I can tell, Scoutin' is something that folks learn over time, gradually improving, gradually coming to a deeper understanding, gradually figurin' out themselves and how to use it successfully for the kind of kids and families their troop attracts. Always somethin' new, always somethin' to get better at, good things to learn from other agencies and programs, and most importantly - always the opportunity to make all kinds of mistakes and still be a good scouter. Scouting is a great program for kids, and I'm always wonderin' why we don't think of adult learnin' in the same way. Training sessions play only a small role in teachin' youth (TLT, etc.). The handbook offers a reference or at least somethin' to flip through. But almost all the learnin' and growing in Scouting happens through learning from peers, and developing experience on-the-job (with some coaching!), and meeting challenges that occasionally test and evaluate and recognize skills. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, eh? I don't reckon a single one of us would suggest that the SPL handbook and the 3-hour TLT and an admonition to follow them is enough for our youth to be successful. Beavah

And why not just discuss these points without misrepresenting what I write? Responded in a friendly manner offline. Beavah

But the idea of a PL ordering the patrol members to do it or they run the risk of him beating them up? Does seem to me to be a clear case of bullying. Hey, George, I need you to clean up your tent. I don't want to! Yeah, George, I know that, but I need you to do it anyway. Could you do that, please? Who cares what you need? It's not what I need. Well, George, I figure it would help you out, too, since your underwear wouldn't be full of mud and you'd look like an older, cool scout. Do you notice how all the older scouts have neater tents? They do not! Bobby has a messy tent. I don't care about them anyways! Scouting is stupid. Anybody who stays in it when they're older is gay. Hey! Stop it with the name-calling! Whether you care about them or not, you have to clean up your tent or you can't come to the patrol campfire tonight. Oh yeah! You can't make me! You're not my boss! You're just another gay older scout. Well, yes I can make you. Just watch and see. Screw you, Bill, you can't tell me what to do just because you're bigger than me! That's bullying! bullying! bullying! I'll get you thrown out of Boy Scouts for that! :) Yes, our older scouts don't always use the best leadership styles, eh? That can be something to work on. But sometimes, especially in a same-age patrol structure, they can face challenges that we as adults would never face. A defiant patrol member spoilin' for a fight. A self-conscious peer who refuses to take direction. They're kids, and they're learnin'. Policy is like a club. It's a blunt instrument. Swingin' a club around is usually not the thing to do when people are learnin'. Yah, we hope that a rational committee or CO would exercise good judgment, eh? But we see even here on the forums that many folks think "a policy is a policy", a 'bully' must go, better safe than sorry, etc. Beavah

So rather than just sending a person to training or prescribing things that they need to DO (which, in my experience, doesn't work real well) I would prefer to also see us stress to SMs that they need to understand their own weaknesses and make sure to surround themselves with, and really pay attention to, people whose strengths can compensate for those weaknesses. Yah, Lisa'bob, this is a great notion, eh? I confess I've been puzzlin' and puzzlin' 'til my puzzler grew sore about the former SM you described, for whom my random suggestions in the parent thread would have failed. You're right of course - all those notions were successful as tools only because they fit the personalities and styles of the leaders involved. I'm not sure how I could have helped him in this area. And the proper answer is I probably couldn't. But I could help an ASM support him in the emotional-support-of-kids role while he did whatever he did well (outing logistics?). The other thing I've done on occasion is when troops have SM turnover, try to help the replacement be someone different than the last. If the last SM was a good organizer, make the next one a good people-leader, or vice versa. I think that helps troops address areas that have gotten weaker as each SM played to his/her own strengths, eh? Got a new one for the trick bag - a SM this weekend told me he calls or emails 3 parents per month, just to say "hi", share a couple stories about their kid, and provide an avenue to chat. In a troop of about 25-30 or so, that gets him personal contact at least once a year with each family. This fits this man's style. Maybe it might work for a few folks here. I think it falls into the "creating space to just listen" which otherwise might not happen in a busy SM's life, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

At least a food recipe can be repeated over and over because all the ingredients can be controled to be the same every time. Dealing with indivudual characteristics and individual situations is not going to work like that. Hey, hoorah! That's a first. I thought yeh to be an advocate of the McDonald's Franchise model of Scoutin', where the point was to do exactly what you say can't be done. I'm sorry I misunderstood yeh before. I agree with this completely. You will find the skills you need to apply in the Methods of Scouting because that is what they are designed to affect. Yah, I wouldn't call the Methods "skills" exactly. I reckon a scouter needs far more than 8 skills in his "arsenal of usable tools." That's what I reckon folks should share, eh? Their own recipes or usable tools for implementing the Methods or enacting the Program. In this case, their own tricks and techniques for developin' a unit culture or institutional habits that keep kids from fallin' through the cracks, or ensure response with a range of appropriate supports. Preferably somethin' that can even help Lisabob's old SM who wasn't a "natural" at this sort of thing, eh? All of da things I suggested are part of the Methods, sure... but not one appears in a piece of literature or in a training syllabus. Ain't enough to say "follow the Methods". We have to give folks tools and ideas and examples and inspiration to improve their Scoutin' every day. To share "Patrol Method" recipes and safe "Outdoor Method" outing plans. Yeh know - be Helpful! I thought your suggestion in the sequel thread was a fine example of that. Beavah

There have always been volunteers involved in the development of scout training courses. As an example there were 50 volunteers invoved in the development of Wood Badge for the 21st Century. This is not something the BSA suddenly decided to do. Of course not, eh? But there's a difference. As yeh mention, WB21C was developed, like much of the BSA materials, in a very large-group, committee-style way, eh? That approach gets yeh lots of varied input so as to catch problems, but it also gets yeh mediocre results almost all the time. Committees just aren't very good at writin' program. That takes writers, because good written materials have a voice, not a babble of voices. I reckon that's why the Bill Hillcourt materials are still treasured by so many folks, and still do (IMO) the best job of layin' out the Scouting Program. Not just because of Bill's expertise, but because they were the work of an author, not of a committee. They speak in his voice, they don't read like a manual. NeilLup's supplementary module crew is lookin' more for authors than committee members, as I understand that program initiative. That recognizes that individual Scouters have ways of doin' things that may be valuable... perhaps not to everybody, but to many folks. I reckon Scoutin' is richest when it's more like a wiki than a tome of revealed knowledge. Consider the Methods of Boy Scouting for instance . What methods do not address a scout's healthy mental or emotional development? Wasn't the question, eh? We all believe Scouting helps kids' emotional development. The question involved when "scouts need extra emotional support and attention... what are some good ideas for helpin' all of us within our units be alert...and what tricks are there to respond to [such] needs?" It's not a value of Scoutin' question, it's an enactment of Scoutin' question. Like sharing Dutch Oven recipes. Cookin' basics may be in the Handbook, cookin' techniques in IOLS, patrol cookin' in WB. But yeh won't find a raft of good Dutch Oven recipes in the SM Handbook, nor even a set of good winter campout menu plans in G2SS. Scoutin' is like cooking. It's worth sharin' recipes and techniques, especially when dealin' with odd ingredients. Beavah

Yah, I reckon this is so much a recurring "theme" across multiple threads that it needs its own permanent home. From the parent thread, BobWhite states: It would not be needed for someone to do am exceptional job as a program leader just to follow the prgram Methods. They are not that difficult to do. But you have to know what they actually are, and as we know the vast majority of leaders are untrained. If parents want scouting to be able to help the children grow in healthy ways they need to demand that scout leaders get trained and follow the training. So what do we all think? Is the training enough to ensure leaders can understand and succeed at implementing scouting in their community? Is knowing what the methods "actually are," as defined in the program materials, sufficient on its own to ensure success at implementation? Or is working with parents and kids of different ages and needs, and the outdoor environment and culture of different parts of the country and within different COs with different goals and adult leaders of different backgrounds and talents sufficiently complex that a single training set, or a single program without supplementation and adaptation, is insufficient to meet all of the needs out there? Whew! Does one size fit all? Or are different ideas and examples helpful? Do we follow the program, or do we enact the program, if we do it well? Beavah

Yah, the parent thread got a bit sidetracked, but I think it's an important topic worth discussin'. So... this thread is open to anybody who is willing to share specific ideas that may be helpful to a fellow Scouter for identifying and responding appropriately to a scout who might be feeling down in the dumps, left out, or otherwise in need of some extra support for a bit. It came partly out of scoutmomma's comments in one of the bullying threads about adult leaders being "oblivious" to the needs of a particular boy or what the lad was going through. Regardless of "bullying" definitions, the lad was in need of support. I think even in the best of units it's possible for some kids to "fall through the cracks" for a bit - perhaps just by not showing up. And I think even our "best" kids are occasionally in need of some support and individual attention. Having techniques or habits for "catching" such kids can be a real service; having a range of ideas for responding to the needs of such kids can be a great resource. So feel free to share either things your unit does to identify kids who need some added attention, or some ideas for how yeh have supported those kids once found. As a courtesy, I'd ask for specific ideas only (whether from the BSA materials, your own experience, an interestin' notion, or a lucky guess). And so we don't get distracted too much by critique, if you're going to critique or expound on a particular idea beyond a passing comment, please spin off a new thread. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, to be clear, there was nuthin' in my earlier message that I recall intending even as a wisecrack, let alone an insultin' one. But I apologize if I inadvertently offended anyone by typin' fast. I reckon bein' called "insulting" in public is a bit insulting though, eh? In a unit where leaders understand and use the scouting methods the individual youths are being observed and evaluated for both strengths and needs, and then the various Methods are applied to help the scout grow and develop into a healthy individual. Certainly, BobWhite, if the leaders do an exceptional job using the program, supplementing it with techniques they develop that expand on and help deliver what is in the BSA documents. That's why the BSA is encouraging capable and talented folks to continue to assist in developin' supplementary training and program modules (see NeilLup's thread)! We reckon there's a lot of great wisdom out there. If the BSA recognizes the value and need for that, I reckon we discussion forum participants should as well, provided we have actually used the program well in a particular area and can discuss the specifics of how that worked. With respect to the Scouter who arranged for the meet-up with the school counselor, I don't have any problem with it. As I mention, the scouter in question was a professional school teacher, and had those contacts. What a great value to bring to a scouting program! What a fantastic thing to do for a lad and a set of parents! So often with folks there's a fear of approaching a counselor for assistance (and it's hard to identify good ones, eh?). It really helps when a friend and trusted adult helps to bridge the gap. I don't see that as bein' any different than a physician helping with First Aid or an auto mechanic rebuilding a troop trailer. The adult brought her talents and expertise to the program, to the benefit of the kids. I think we've probably gotten a bit hung up on particulars, so let's keep this thread goin' on those for whoever is interested, and I'll start another for the main topic. Beavah

There is nothing outside of the scouting program in any of those things. All are existing elements of Scouting. Yah, fine, whatever! Can't say anybody cares what yeh call it. We're just tryin' to help each other do things better for kids, eh? Folks often need specific examples and ideas of ways to implement things. None of what I listed are specifically enumerated in the program materials. So what specific examples do you have to share, that help folks within their units be alert to and respond appropriately to da emotional needs of their scouts on a regular basis? (pretty insulting crack towards another forum member, leastwise to me, OGE) Nice addition, Lisabob! Conduct a joining SM conference (different from a general orientation for all parents at once) with each new scout's parents, just to talk about their boy. I'm curious if you have any ideas that would have worked for the old SM you mentioned? I agree that what I suggested works to support certain kinds of SMs. How do we help da rest? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

jblake has a good point, eh? Rather than tryin' to shoehorn the lad into the advancement program, let him come out and have fun. And then along the way think of special recognitions for him that seem appropriate and in line with his unique gifts - perhaps recognitions generated by the boys themselves. Now yeh might find along the way that there are opportunities that present themselves where advancement starts makin' sense - whether it's BSA advancement with modified requirements or some other in-troop "advancement" that yeh get creative and work out just for him. Just let the impetus come from the boy's needs and desires and abilities. There's also a BSA publication on Scouting for kids with Special Needs which can be helpful in an outline sort of way. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, let's not get too distracted, eh? We're talkin' about extra support needed by individual boys on occasion, eh? Not just the regular supports offered by "the Program". MissingArrow, good comments, eh? These are all just different ideas, with their pluses and minuses. That could be a real minus, dependin' on how it was implemented. Yah, what I remember as da sense of it was not a memorization task, but a knowledge and performance task - you should know your patrol members well, and you should be communicating with 'em frequently enough to know their phone numbers (these days, maybe yeh should just have their numbers in your cell phone? ). Anybody else got additional ideas or things they do along these lines? Beavah

Yah, this is Michigan, right? A winter outdoor campout I assume? Can't say I blame the lads for realizin' in the field that quick and one-pot style meals were going to be better than somethin' complimicated like lasagna. And as yeh mention, apples and eggs aren't a great choice for da frozen north. I think we adults sometimes assume the kids know more than they do about menu planning, just because most of us have been doin' it for so long that it's automatic and we don't have to think about it. But packaging and quantities in grocery stores is just plain confusin', eh? And anticipating what's goin' to be right for the conditions also takes experience. That's why I think it's important for kids doin' T-2-1 to have a number of experiences practicing and learning about menu planning and cooking and food purchasing before they get "signed off" and are expected to be capable of doin' it on their own. There's a lot to learn, and it takes some practice. And as Oak suggests, practice without adults who insist on fruit or fresh eggs . Beavah

Yah, thanks for the clarification, scoutmomma. I spun off a new thread to discuss some of what I think you're talkin' about. I hope you join that one, too. Returning to the bullying definition, I think da reason I'm against "broadening the definition of bullying if that means our consciousness is raised" is that bullying has taken on a legal character, and that trend is likely to continue. States are passin' laws about this stuff, including mandatory reassignment to an alternative educational program for bullies. School districts are passin' all kinds of policies that are similar. And in G2SS black-letter policy, the BSA associates bullying with things like violence, hazing, and bringing drugs on a campout, and strongly suggests "revocation of membership" as the appropriate response. In that environment, yeh don't want the definition of bullying to be "loose" or "broad". Yeh want the definitions of crimes that trigger serious punishments to be narrow and well-defined. At least I think so, anyway . There's other ways to "raise consciousness," like the Oath and Law and things that call us to proactive positive behavior on behalf of others, without the label and threat of punishment that might not be appropriate for a lad who is just oblivious. What do others think about their definition of "bullying?" Beavah

In da parent thread, we were trippin' over definitions of "bullying", but in the process we got to talking about kids in a troop who might not be deliberately targeted for mean-ness, but who might be in a place where they feel disconnected as friendships naturally change, etc. I think all of our scouts need extra emotional support and attention at some time or another during their careers, even our very best and most well-adjusted. I think the extroverts get it a bit more often by seeking it out, but that we as scouters can miss the needs of the quieter lads. So ... what are some good ideas for helpin' all of us within our units be alert to the emotional needs of our scouts on a regular enough basis to catch changes and issues (and what tricks are there to respond to needs, too)? Here's some things I've seen: -- Regular, scheduled SM conferences with every boy regardless of advancement, so that no lad "slips through the cracks." -- PL/Scouter meetings where they sit and talk about each kid in the patrol, and where he's at, how he's doing, and what he needs "next." Not just about advancement. In smaller troops, this might be done by all the scouters and SPL... but it carefully talks about every kid. -- SPL evaluates the PL's once a quarter by asking him to name every boy in his patrol, their rank, the things they're good at, what they've been up to in the troop and outside it for the last 3 months, and why they're cool. And their phone numbers. All from memory. SM has the SPL and ASPL do the same for the PL's. No credit for POR unless they can do it. -- SM (of a smaller troop) conducts private "parent conferences" much like a school would once every 6 months, so that parents can report on what their kid is thinking/feeling/needing. That SM (a school teacher, can you tell? ) also would ask to be invited to IEPC meetings for the boy at school, so that his scoutin' life could support his school life and vice versa. ------ Now, for any of these things, the key I reckon is follow up, eh? Here's some things I've seen: -- One scouter who the boy seems to like gets assigned to follow-up. -- The PL comes up with specific things to do in the next month to support the boy, in a sort of punch-list. Sometimes that can be "help him finish knots requirement for FC"; sometimes it can be "ask him if the patrol can come and cheer for him at his red belt test"; sometimes it can be "ask him to be unofficial troop photographer, since he's really good at that." -- The parent gets an assignment from the SM designed to quietly help the boy in Scouting. -- An older scout gets tasked out as "extra hands" for a PL who is struggling with how to help a particular lad. -- Once I heard that a unit (the schoolteacher again) set up an appointment with the school counselor and parents for an evaluation. Had another unit who had the church youth minister "drop by" in a way that allowed for a conversation. Well, that's enough to prime the pump anyway! What have you done in your units or seen done that catches those lads who need some extra support without lettin' 'em slip through the cracks, and what has worked for follow-up when yeh do catch it? Beavah

Yah, scoutmomma, you're really confusin' this old flat-tailed critter, eh? Lisabob described a common middle school girls phenomenon where a girl is singled out for deliberate, mean-spirited exclusion (often includin' spreading nasty rumors about the girl). And yeh say that's what was goin' on in your unit. Yet yeh also said: They [the perpetrators] weren't actively excluding him so much as they were just being oblivious and not noticing his distress (he had a tendency to just get quieter and quieter)... One of our ASMs, the father of one of the boys involved, sat all of them down to ask specifically about their behavior, at which point, the lightbulbs all went on over their heads, and they became very remorseful and wrote a group letter of apology to the other scout, which they hand-delivered it to his home. Yeh go on to say the boys felt remorseful about it quite some time later, eh? IMO, that's not what Lisabob is describin'. In the typical case for middle school bullying that Lisabob is talkin' about, it's deliberate, and nasty, and when an adult sits down with the perpetrators there isn't much remorse and the behaviors do not change, they just go further underground. I frankly think that kind of "girl bullying" is worse than what happens on the boy side. Perhaps we need another set of words for "kids who need emotional support but aren't getting it." That's real, eh? I'm sure that's what your first lad was feeling. We should definitely be alert to that sort of thing as Scouters and as parents. I reckon at some level that's why almost every kid leaves scouting - they're looking for some affirmation, and success, and personal achievement, and if they don't get it (or they get it more from soccer or chess club or whatever), then they leave to go find it elsewhere. It's why I recommended da Bucket book to yeh. But I'm not sure I like callin' it "bullying" is all. Bullyin' is becoming a legal and policy thing for kids, even a crime in some places. I just don't think what you describe is something that merits the kind of responses "true" bullying (should) generate - punishment, suspension, explusion, etc. Beavah