Beavah

This is a spinoff from a new member's question thread to handle a discussion/debate about a related issue. CalicoPenn opined: To make matters more interesting, Den Chief is a very rare position in Scouting as it is both a POR in a Troop and a leadership position in a Pack (although your son won't be registered in the Pack). To recognize this, the BSA has created a Den Chief POR badge (usually handed out by the Troop) and a Den Chief Cord (usually handed out by the Pack - Blue and Gold for a Cub Den Chief and Red, Blue and Gold for a Webelos Den Chief). The Den Chief Cord isn't worn when the Den Chief POR badge is worn. BUT - the Den Chief Cord CAN be worn, and SHOULD be worn, when a Scout is sporting another POR badge (like Patrol Leader) on his uniform.

In keepin' with the resolution, this is a spinoff from a question thread to handle a possible discussion/debate on a related issues by others. The question is whether a boy should hold two positions of responsibility in a troop. FScouter argues: Multiple positions of responsibility may be practiced by some troops, but multiple positions is not encouraged or approved by BSA. What does the group think? B

Those awful, bad-weather, challenging campouts make the best stories and the best memories.

Yah, Scoutingmama, you guys just make an old Beavah want to cheer! Way to be thinkin' strategically about your program! I do know a few CO's where multiple units are run with a joint committee, though it's more common at the older boy levels, eh? The problem is this. Boy Scouting and Varsity and Venturing all work based on youth leadership, coached by an adult. So at those levels, the daily activities and some or most of the planning are done by the kids and unit leaders without the committee, leavin' the committee to be more like a true Board of Directors. Cub Scoutin', on the other hand, is led and run by adults. So Cub Committees typically have a lot of operations work to do - planning the details of the Rain Gutter Regatta, getting set up for the family camping trip, etc. So cub committees spend most of their time in operations, handling the details of the refreshments for the next pack meetin'. That's way too much load to do jointly, and it sets the wrong tone for the older programs. Unfortunately, it also means that Cub Committees are like Scoutmasters... they spend their time in the daily operations and a bit in mid-range plannin', but nobody at all is doin' the rest of mid-range planning, long-range planning, or thinkin' about vision. I think you're goin' to need a dedicated cub committee for the operation stuff, even if yeh call it somethin' different. But then yeh need to think about how your troop committee or CO can provide deeper, mid- to long-range support for your cub program. Maybe that's a joint committee for those things (like leadership recruiting/selection/training, etc.), and then a separate "operations committee" for the cubs. I think that could be quite strong, and help avoid some of the classic cub pack mistakes like appointing "any warm body" to important program roles just because nobody is handling that longer-term view. One of the toughest things for cub packs is that turnover is pretty high, and havin' a long-range committee workin' that problem would be a real strength. Now... deep breath! I don't want to damp your enthusiasm, but be careful about doin' too much too fast, eh? Startin' a new troop is a lot of work. Startin' a cub pack at the same time runs a risk of burnin' the candle at both ends and the middle, eh? I think what you're thinkin' is great, but don't kill all your golden goose volunteers by settin' up too much work for 'em. Last thing to store in the back of your brain - husband/wife SM/CC teams are a real risk, and somethin' a lot of us discourage. Even when you're both doin' your best, the thing that can happen is that the two of you have natural, daily "backchannel" communication, eh? Nobody else gets to see those conversations, understand the reasoning, or participate. So it's really easy for the two of you to show up with a set of understandings/decisions/plans that don't have "buy in", eh? And that really harms the group, and makes 'em think your family is unfairly controlling things. Be aware of that. Consciously try to avoid it. And try to plan for rotating out of the CC job in 2 years. One of the best things yeh can give your troop is the experience of orderly and friendly transition of leadership. Beavah

One more question for all- who does the long range planning?? The SM? the committe? or both? Yes. Except yeh forgot the kids, eh? Generally speakin', the SM and the PLC are going to be out playin' the game. Some of that involves medium-range planning, like the older boys planning for a high-adventure trip. But most of their time is going to be in the daily game. The committee should not be involved in the daily game at all, except when individual committee members are asked by the SM to help with somethin'. So if you get to discussin' the menu or itinerary for the next trip in a committee meeting, you're failing. Committee work is shared with the SM at the medium-range level. So the PLC and the SM will bring a semi-annual or annual calendar to the committee for its help and support, eh? Or their plans for a high adventure trip. The lads and the SM are the generators and prime movers; the committee is support and advice and review. Yeh help clear the road of obstacles. At the long-range level, I've rarely seen a SM or youth members get involved. That's the committee's turf, because if you don't do it, the others won't have time to give it the thought it needs. Plans for recruiting leaders, and improving the knowledge and skills of all the leaders, and recognizing leaders. Long-term plans for gear depreciation and replacement and purchase of capital equipment. Maintaining good contact with the CO and building the partnership. Setting that vision and keeping it in mind when the SM is covered in mud and can't see it any more, or when a lad or their family demands special treatment or a lesser vision. Conveying that vision to new parents. Remembering that gettin' where you want to go requires recruiting now, and fundraising now, and service now, and buildin' that support so that when the kids and the SM come to you in three years with their ambitious plans and dreams, you can say, "Yep, we've got your back." Ultimately, your job as strategic planners on the committee is to open doors and make things possible, and inspire your SM. If you are there for him, and you open those doors, he'll be energized and encourage the kids to dream big. If you're not, or if yeh close doors and say "can't" a lot because you weren't plannin' or are getting scared or lose sight of the vision, then your SM will be less energized and won't encourage the lads to dream big. Beavah

Yah, EagleFoot. Confusin', ain't it. First thing to remember is that da full title of G2SS is "Guide to Safe Scouting for Unit Activities". Rules for council and district-sponsored events are different, and are either covered by the National Camping School standards or just by the council's own risk management and discretion. As it should be. As Lisa'bob says, there's no "one night" rule, even for units. That one is a myth. Now, the question is whether a council should be doin' what you suggest, eh? National guidance is "not really". And I have to agree. Boy Scout camporees should be age-appropriate for Boy Scouts, eh? Which means they are not age-appropriate for webelos or bears. I dislike the pressure/trend to dumb-down Boy Scouting to accommodate the younger guys. They'll get their turn in a few years. That havin' been said, a lot of councils do exactly as FScouter describes, eh? And there's also some merit to their position. As Camping Chairman, I think yeh should be having this discussion with your committee. Not a policy argument, but a discussion among good scouters about whether it's the right thing to do for kids, eh? Beavah

Yah, Kudu, I think B-P reserved "Parlour Scouting" for his criticism of the James West / BSA corporate-headquarters types, eh? I can't think of any time he used it to refer to camporees or jamborees. The point yeh make about patrol distance is well taken, though. I reckon we've done the lads no good and made da rank badges meaningless if they can't successfully camp and hike on their own away from us adults and other supports. That distance between patrols matters. Now here's a question for yeh: Does the same apply to Proficiency (Merit) Badges? Should lads who hold Backpacking MB be able to backpack on their own, well-separated from others? How about Whitewater? Climbing? Beavah

Hi Scoutingmama! Welcome to da forums, eh! Are you and T78 from the same unit? I think you're thinkin' exactly right about the 5-year plan. One of the most important roles of the Committee as the troop's "Board of Directors" is to keep the long-term, strategic vision in mind. Scoutmasters are always goin' to be immersed in the day-to-day operations and yearly program planning, eh? They don't have the time to be thinkin' about that other important stuff! Your strategic vision will affect both the things yeh need to set up at the start, and your plan over time. Stuff to set up now Most important thing to start is to keep da roles clear, eh? What is the SM's "turf" and what is the committee's turf. If yeh start from the beginning ruling program complaints and details "out of order" at committee meetings, you'll set good precedents goin' forward. Biggest decision for you and your CO is your long-term committee structure. Plan now for how yeh want the committee to do business when you're a troop of 50 families and 80 parents who don't always get along. How are you goin' to select folks for the committee that bring the right skills and character, and who care about the long-term health of da troop, not just what their son/family wants? How are yeh going to build in turnover so that yeh keep some experience but keep introducin' new blood? Be sure your committee has wisdom in addition to workers. Recruit a few outsiders , like perhaps the youth director of your CO, or a doc/nurse/attorney/teacher from the CO. As yeh move along, plan how you are goin' to keep some "graduated" parents and/or boys on the committee for their wisdom, but not forever. Yeh have some money now. Set up your financial controls, and your norms for fundraisin' and how you are goin' to help kids of families without means. Your initial group is goin' to be an example for all who follow. Encourage the best example - everyone takes training, and after that everyone keeps learning! How are you going to encourage / assist / insist on that? Do yeh want an annual budget for adult leader training, where you cover 50% if the adult agrees to at least a year of service? Remember to think beyond BSA training, eh? Your adults will need CPR, Red Cross ALS, Wilderness First Aid, canoeing, youth with disabilities and other trainin'! Think outside the box - perhaps schedule visits to different troops each year, or to district committee meetings. Get someone in to talk about planning for helpin' special needs scouts, like ADHD boys or autistic boys. Build some committee resources to be ready to help your SM/ASM. And a big one - how are yeh going to select/screen ASMs and SMs in the future? Decide now on a system, before there are people and personalities in play. Your system should talk to the current SM/ASM especially, should probably talk to kids and parents, and should allow some time for "good fit" checkin'. Finally, how are you goin' to maintain and build relationships with your CO? In your first year, set up the habit of doin' 'em a good turn or two, of giving them an annual report, of inviting their officers to your Courts of Honor, and of asking them for money. A CO needs some skin in the game. It's always easiest to put things in place before an issue comes up, eh? Planning for 5 years For strategic plannin', set your target for 5 years out #1) (Most important) What will an Eagle Scout or other older / graduating boy from your program look like? What experiences/abilities should he have? Your answer to this question determines almost everything else. 2) How big? How many kids do you want this troop to be, ideally? Where will those kids come from? What will their needs be that yeh have to be ready for? 3) What activities do yeh want to be ready to support? High adventure in particular takes some longer-term planning, for both gear and $. Now take those answers and divide by five: * Whatever you want your Eagle / graduate to be, divide by 6. That determines what the committee and da Scoutmaster / ASMs together think a Life Scout should look like, and a Star Scout, and a First Class, etc. Agree as a group to set your expectations for recognitions / advancement / program to match... and then communicate that early and often to everyone, especially parents! Similarly, the experiences yeh want an Eagle or graduate to have get divided by 6 and yeh begin planning for 'em now. * If yeh want to be a troop of 40-50, each year you'll be adding one patrol of 8-10 or so. That means budgeting right now for gear for a new patrol each year, because a patrol can't be a real patrol without its own gear that no other patrol touches. That means plannin' right now for adding a new ASM each year and getting him/her through training. * If yeh think you'll be running one high adventure trip per year for high school aged boys, perhaps yeh start setting aside some fundraising each year to partly fund it when the lads get there. More importantly, yeh have to be recruiting and/or training physically fit, adventurous, skilled adults for those activities. And you'll need equipment. That might affect yeh right away, as you choose between "lightweight" versatile gear and "heavyweight" car-campin' gear (check out da threads on that). You can see that the work of a good committee is hard, eh? No time to be interferin' with the SM's program. Between handlin' the strategic side and the behind-the-scenes support side, the group will be busy! Good luck and keep us posted! Beavah

Yah, T78. Welcome to da forums, eh! And congrats to yeh on your new troop. You are asking a really big question in some ways, eh? One that all good scout leaders are workin' on day in and day out - how do I encourage/help/coach my guys to grow and lead? You're gonna be asking yourself that question forever if you're a good SM. For where you're at right now, be aware of a few resources: Troop Leader Training: A brief syllabus/program for introducing your PLs and other youth leaders to leadership roles. Along with that, yeh can also find good help in the Patrol Leader's Handbook and da Senior Patrol Leader's Handbook which you should give to your lads in those positions. Junior Leader Training: An older, out-of-print program that had da advantage of bein' more detailed than TLT. Yeh can probably ask an old SM in your district to borrow his copy. National Youth Leader Training: A program offered by your council that a couple of your key up-and-coming leadership boys might be encouraged to attend. For my part, I'd encourage yeh to think about stayin' age-appropriate and thinkin' long term. You've got a young group, eh? Don't expect 'em to be doin' everything. Figure on teachin' 'em how to do simple stuff and letting 'em solo on that before you go on to bigger things. Developin' a really youth-led program is a multi-year, ongoing effort. If you're gettin' ready to make a second patrol, consider carefully whether to be age-based or mixed-age in your patrols. That's an important decision, IMO, and will affect how yeh run for years and years. Lots of old threads here on the topic. Be careful about bein' too top-heavy. You describe an SPL, ASPL, PL, and APL for a unit with only one patrol. Too much! Figure on a PL and an APL for each of your patrols. No need for an SPL to coordinate between two people. Yeh want to build Patrol Method leadership, especially with the age of your lads, not Troop Method leadership. If yeh keep the task manageable and the patrols independent, you'll do your unit a world of good. Stick to practical, concrete tasks rather than leadership theory for the guys you have. A good Patrol Leader should really know how to cook, plan meals, set and break camp, handle simple first aid - all that T21 stuff, eh? And teach it by word and example. If yeh aren't comfortable letting a lad go camping and hiking for a weekend without any adults, he hasn't really passed First Class and isn't really ready for leadership. Do some PL/APL - only adventure/training weekends to push 'em and make 'em confident in their skills. The goal is to turn over camp tasks and hikes to the kids first. Let 'em be successful and grow in their independence. Then work on handin' over small planning, then bigger planning and teaching and safety. As you work toward that, you and your ASMs are the "older kids," and will be settin' the example while pulling some of the planning load. Just don't do it behind closed doors. Participate in a PLC and let 'em watch you run a meeting and do planning and stuff. And then gradually you guys "age out" as they grow up. Remember, you've got a few years! And don't worry, your next round of young guns will see that kids can do camp tasks and hikes on their own and they'll want to be that cool, too! They'll learn by watchin'. Beavah

Yah, I think it's hard, eh? Forums attract all kinds of folks, newbies through old timers. And they develop "personalities" based on their moderators and frequent contributors, eh? It can be tough tryin' to gauge responses to folks. Like John, I know I've blown it on more than a few occasions. And I reckon we all tend to read into what people are typin' through the lenses of our own experience. Members who have recently seen a twit harangue a lad at a BOR will view a question about a BOR differently than members who recently saw da troop bully awarded Eagle. It's easy to forget that da poster may be comin' from a different place. I've had similar concerns from time to time, and would suggest the followin'... * We all try to avoid at least the more pointed and "flaming" criticism out the chute. "Fire da SM", "quit the troop", "you're not doing Scouting", "go take training you bum", etc. probably aren't all that productive, eh? * We try to move the expert / detail / nitpicky discussion or debate to a new thread when it comes up. Lots of times, a simple question can generate different ideas and then quite a long run, eh? Like askin' about God at a BOR . Spinning off a new thread for the debate part just seems like it'd be nicer. At the same time, I think we've all got to admit that we're each gonna blow it sometimes, eh? I remember jokin' about the Monster in the camp lake one time and reducin' a new lad (who I wasn't aware was even payin' attention!) to tears before his swim check. Not his fault for havin' a thin skin, not really my fault for not bein' alert to a kid listenin' in (we weren't even at the waterfront). But a thicker skin and my bein' more alert both would have been good things. Plus a bit of humor! I figure those are good things to try for, too. Have a thick skin, let folks debate and critique our ideas without makin' it personal. Be alert, change our tone dependin' on who we're addressin' and what they need. And laugh. Don't take any of this stuff too seriously, eh? It's a fun kids' program, nuthin' more or less. Beavah

Yah, OK, this is a thread for old-timers. Eagledad got me thinkin' about it when he commented in the parent thread "The way the district can pump up a failing or small troop is look for fresh dynamic adults in the cubs and start coaxing them to look at rebuilding a failing program." He then went on to describe a couple of success stories. That's one of those Scouting Truths, eh? A troop grows or shrinks to the "natural" size that can be managed by its SM/primary adult leaders. Period. Training doesn't change it. The degree they follow da books or improvise doesn't change it. FCFY doesn't make a dent. Only thing that changes it is new adults or burnout/serious changes in da primary adult(s) lives. So for da rest of the old timers here, share your "Scouting Truths" - real-world principles that yeh learned over many years in the field. Beavah

My concern is more how a boy can simultaneously and successfully carryout two difficult positions of responsibility. Yah, F's got a point, eh? I think this depends a lot on the size of the troop. Small troops tend to have both boys and adults who wear multiple hats. And that's OK, because in a small troop, it may be that an individual job isn't too large, eh? I reckon it's better to have a Scribe/Historian who gets the jobs done rather than handin' out patches to kids who aren't ready for responsibility just because they're all that's available. I reckon I see a lot of dual Den Chief / Troop position kids, though. Almost always because they help out with a younger brother's pack. Seems to work OK in most cases, but I always wonder if another lad in the troop might have worked better. No parent "pushing", and Den Chief is a nice step into leadership for a 2nd or 3rd year lad who might not be elected/appointed to a troop position. Beavah

Yah, cheffy, there are no BSA policies or guidance on unit websites. That's left to the COs and the units, as it should be. Unit Sites... the council [should] remain completely uninvolved in and, inasmuch as possible, unaware of any Internet publication produced by any group or individual not authorized to serve as a representative of the council or the Boy Scouts of America. I'm not sure that yeh need a policy as a unit. I think the simplest policy is "we won't do anything an individual boy or parent asks us not to do... or if we did, we'll take it down as soon as we are asked to." Keep it simple. Of course sometimes there's a busy-body who wants all the other parents to do it their way, eh? Probably the same ones who have never looked at their kids' MySpace accounts. Is that the sort of issue you've got goin' on? Beavah

Yah, Kudu, difference between backpackin' and car campin', eh? It can be easy to do backpackin', or even required as you suggest. Not always easy, though, if campin' is limited to designated sites and you have a fair number of lads. Logistics becomes a headache. Car campin' it's pretty hard. Most state parks and national park group sites are too small, and commercial sites for sure. Takin' up individual sites gets pricey, and sometimes runs afoul of adult-must-be-camped-at-each-site rules. Plus you'd have to go out of your way to reserve sites spread out around the place. B

Yah, I've known a few very successful mega-troops, eh? They take the right sort of SM, who likes bein' CEO of that kind of operation. Goods and bads, like everything. They tend to be more adult-run than average, or perhaps "adult-structured." Not in the small stuff like meal plannin', but in da big stuff like communication and outing planning and decisionmaking. They never see it themselves, though! Lots of activities, lots of opportunities, generally good parent relations and such. They can often create real LNT problems, or just have a hard time findin' places to camp as a unit. They do tend to wipe out nearby small troops. Most importantly, they do tend to shrink dramatically when da one SM who could manage the "corporation" dies or retires. So while kids have can have a great Scoutin' experience in a mega-troop, in the long run, I've long felt they hurt Scouting. When a big troop eats the small fish, and then shrinks, you're left with only one unit servin' kids where yeh used to have 3. Takes a lot more effort to start a new unit fresh than it does to keep an old one goin'. Beavah

Yah, anybody else have a pop-up series from performanceoptimizer.com show up while they were browsin' Scouter.Com? I've gotten this two or three times now. Starts with a fake error message modal-like window, then wipes my scouter.com window to take me to their site. Can we block 'em? Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Calico, jblake and others all demonstrate their real depth of knowledge here, eh? They've given great advice. Problem is it's really hard to transport their knowledge into your circumstances and brain, Wilderness. We have some real advantages as BSA leaders. We know da kids over a long period of time, and can draw on those relationships. We have kids of different ages, who can be used as helpers and assistants. Don't know what your program is, but most middle school outdoor programs are usually short-time things, with no pre-established relationships or youth leaders. Dat's much harder, eh? Now you're talkin' about schoolteacher-type management skills. Yeh have to slow down, be less active, and establish norms and rules and authority up-front. Tone and style in doin' that sort of thing is an art in a lot of ways, and you're at a disadvantage being a young person. You're at a real disadvantage if yeh became informal "buddies" with 'em too fast. But yeh can pick up generic books like Harry Wong's that talk about the basics of managing groups like that, eh? Even better, find an older adult who can coach yeh, or who you can watch as they handle a group of kids. If your college has an education school or your program has some senior staff, or there are youth museums or such in your town, check with folks like that. Remember, though, kids are kids. They aren't built to sit still or listen, and even when they listen we don't always talk so that they understand. That's just kids! If we are havin' difficulty, it really is our problem as adults to learn more and do better on. No point to blamin' the kids for bein' what they are. Don't suspend 'em. Think how to change what you're doin' to improve. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, what FScouter said, eh? Almost any job a volunteer can do can be contracted out for hire. That's not an issue. We volunteer so that good organizations don't have to pay big bucks for a contract labor job. I'd take it as a suggestion that the lad might need to stretch himself more. Routine labor IMO would be anything that's part of an organization's normal work process. So runnin' an ordinary Red Cross blood drive when Red Cross runs these constantly is "routine labor" - it requires little independent planning and leadership. Trimmin' the verge on the church is routine labor, something that they do regularly. Etc. Beavah

just as not all of the "Methods" receive equal emphasis Yah, I wonder... Would a troop sponsored by the Quakers put a greater emphasis on Friendly? Would a troop sponsored by da Optimists put a greater emphasis on Cheerful? If your town's major employer is a home products/soaps manufacturer, do yeh emphasize Clean? I reckon most of us parents would have liked to emphasize Obedient at one point or another, eh? Just like Outdoors Method ranges from car camping to troops that climb Kilimanjaro, I figure units set their own store by the Oath and Law. Either accordin' to their mission, or according to what they need to emphasize to their kids at the time. I know one SM who busts out the "Friendly" SM Minutes during Crossover, and "Thrifty" before the troop fundraiser. Beavah

Now, our District Advancement Committee has turned the whole workbook process into quite an academic exercise, resulting in most project plans and final reports encompassing anywhere from 100 - 300 pages of task lists, materials lists, budgeting, volunteer job descriptions, organization charts, exhibits, etc. etc. Definitely more than probably needed...but neverthless the world in which our scouts must navigate through. Holy Smoke! Yah, hmmmm.... Yeh know, one of da things that happens every now and then is people plant good ideas. "Hey, we should encourage kids to include..." "Gee, it would have helped this lad if we had asked him to..." After yeh plant enough good ideas and give 'em a bunch of years to grow, yeh can find that you've created a jungle. Time to get out the saws and axes and hatchets and do some trimmin' of that jungle, Semper. Doesn't sound like the process is servin' kids anymore. Sounds like kids are servin' the process. And it's gotten to be so much of a burden even the adults can't keep up with it. Time to trim the jungle. You and your COR need to drop in on da next district committee meetin'. For comparison, every council I've been involved in does project reviews as part of or just prior to the EBOR (or now via email a few days before the scheduled EBOR). No muss, no fuss. And 50 pages of project stuff with all supportin' documents and such would be more than sufficient. Beavah

Hi Michdlew5! Welcome to da forums, eh? I think part of the issue might be that yeh don't quite understand how the MB program works in a troop (vs. a cub pack). I reckon none of us would want to see a MB counseled on a family outing as a "spur of the moment thing," eh? Takes away way too much from the experience for the lad. Michdlew, I think yeh need to look at this as an opportunity for your son to meet other adults, to learn from and make connections with other members of the community. To grow up and mature and reach beyond his family, eh? There's nothing that says you can't teach your son things, though. So by all means, teach him how to fly fish on a family outin' and get him "hooked"... then let him go find another enthusiastic adult fisherman to learn more from and earn da badge. Best of both worlds, and it doesn't look to other boys and families like your son is cheatin' or you are playin' favorites. That impression can ruin a lad's Scoutin' experience, and your relationship with other parents in the unit. So there's lots of good reasons for what your troop is doin', and that rule is pretty common in most successful scout troops, even if it's only somethin' that's strongly discouraged. Where a strict prohibition on parent MBC's is unreasonable, IMO, is if a parent is clearly the only/best counselor in the area for a specialty badge, eh? If Joe's dad is the only Atomic Energy counselor in the district, and Joe is really interested in the badge but no other boy is, well have at it! Joe should not be denied an opportunity to earn the badge. Dat's the point of da BSA's rule, eh? But if yeh need an answer, long or short, mine is "yes" they can set that expectation, and it's a common one that many good troops set. Generally, units and COs can be more restrictive about rules and safety. In some units, COs restrict MBCs to people who have passed the CO's youth protection training and screening, which might be more strict than da BSAs. Some CO's restrict MBCs for some badges (like Family Life) to adults who are CO members or share their view about the role and importance of Family. Of course if yeh don't agree, yeh can always go to another troop. In fact, they might insist. Yeh don't make any friends for yourself or your son by insistin' your family can ignore a rule everyone else feels is reasonable, eh? Especially when everyone's still got a bad taste in their mouth from da last parent who abused the system. And yeh might find that troops that don't set expectations which prevent "spur of the moment family MB counseling" have weaker programs than you'd like. Beavah

Yah, Trev, there are occasional twits, or just volunteers havin' a bad day. Like I said, I've never really had a Reverent Twit. One Loyal Twit. I think there was a Courteous Twit. Mostly they've been Project Twits. And twit really isn't fair. Good guys, just not ones who should be doin' review boards. I usually introduce 'em to da Finance Committee. Now perhaps there are regionalisms. Many of my neighbors would claim that twits are like cockroaches... they get bigger as yeh go South. [Ducking and runnin' for cover... and really jokin' for all you grit-eaters out there!] :) Beavah

Yah, I reckon there are some bright lads who are capable of leadership and such at age 13 and 14, eh? I also figure that far too many of the lads who earn Eagle at 13 and 14 don't fall into that category, eh? To my mind, both suggest weak programs. The latter is obvious. The former is a weak program because it didn't guide and challenge the bright lad enough on the road to Eagle. Such over-achievers should be pushed - not to chalk up attainments faster, but to achieve better and deeper. Not to skate by quickly, but to challenge themselves to perform to their full ability. Eagle shouldn't be a middle school award. Not even for a bright, high-achieving middle-schooler. Just MHO. Beavah

Yah, pack, gotta agree with EagleDad here, eh? Just seems like this has got your goat because it's a personal issue for you as an adult. I just have never seen it bein' an issue for kids. Buddhist and Hindu and unchurched lads respond to "God" questions from Christian board members typically without missin' a beat. They don't take offense. They talk about this stuff all the time with their friends. And we BOR adults are just older friends, right? Yah, yah, we've all seen an occasional twit as a board member, or just a board member who wasn't good talkin' to kids. But in my experience those types are far more likely to get hung up and persnickety about some detail of the project or another, or perhaps their own favorite Law point (I remember one who got all worked up about "Loyal"...). Da BSA has extra language like the DRP on those things they've been challenged on so that they are a bit more clear to outsiders and folks who are joinin', and have more documentation to contest a challenge. I reckon if some families had their kids refuse to agree to be Thrifty and take the BSA to court over that, then we'd eventually see a "Declaration of Thriftyness." But that's all weird adult behaviors, eh? Like worryin' about whether the use of "God" as a word is gonna be offensive to someone who worships Allah or Jehovah. Kids are more mature about such things than adults are. They care about what we mean. Beavah

Yah, be aware now that for any Washington DC federal official (executive, legislative, or judicial), email is preferred, eh? Da snail mail stuff all gets held up for many weeks being screened for anthrax and such. Talk to your scouts and think outside da box, eh? Sports figures, favorite authors, etc. Make it personal. Some of the best Eagle congratulatory letters I've seen were solicited from fellow scouts, teachers, and others close to the lad - look at who his references were, for example. The ones that really knew the boy well are "keepers", eh? Beavah