Beavah

Yah, Gern, I'm curious. Do yeh see any troops/crews/council contingents that run high adventure activities? Typically high adventure trips require commitment - must attend prep trips, must have first aid certification, etc. Seems like those hyper-involved lads don't have trouble makin' those work. I've never seen Scouting as a "drop in" activity myself. Dat's what the YMCA is for, eh? The band and sports kids around here don't seem to have trouble managin' and negotiatin' to make things work in high-commitment programs, and yah, they even find once they get past freshman year that those "non-negotiable" band events really are negotiable most of da time. I'm goin' to an ECOH this weekend for a lad who runs track and cross country, also is in "advanced band/orchestra", wrote for the paper, took advanced classes, and served as SPL for an active program where he participated in at least 4 high adventure trips and met BA's expectations. I think we sell ourselves and our kids short whenever we claim they "can't" do somethin'. Them because every time I've thought a lad wasn't able to do something he's proved me wrong. Ourselves because I'm never sure why it's OK to blow off a Scoutin' activity run by a volunteer but not OK to skip an activity run by a professional who's paid lots of $$ to be there. Maybe we should charge more and get paid, then folks would accept us as a "commitment.!" I wonder if it's OK for da SM to only show up occasionally, because, after all, he's got a full-time job, and a family, and professional commitments, and.... Beavah

The bottom line is that things like school football, baseball, wrestling, mountain bike racing clubs etc are cooler and when kids start reaching age 15-16 girls and other things noramlly become more interesting... it sometimes is that scout activities are viewed as somewhat optional where things like team sports have a rigid schedule and expectations period. I think that says a lot. When they get to high school, things that require commitment become more interesting. They're old enough that they can focus. They can really get good at somethin', and they like that feelin'. A committed program means they also aren't held back as much by uncommitted / weaker players. They're proud to be in it because it's a commitment, and it's hard, and it makes 'em work hard and really improve. Sports, band, theater, extracurriculars,... all commitments. Scouting, if it doesn't demand a commitment, is like gettin' together with friends to go to a movie. Yeh do it if you have time, yeh skip if you don't. No big deal. It's fun to hang out. But it ain't somethin' that takes real effort or that makes yeh proud. Is that really what we want Scoutin' to be? I personally have never seen a unit that has high expectations for youth (including participation) suffer for it. It's funny and yeh wouldn't figure, but those units are always stronger and have more members. Kids are proud to be part of somethin' that requires commitment. Beavah

it is forbidden for scouts to raise funds for other organizations... This is just gettin' funnier and funnier. Scoutldr, pray tell, how exactly do they stop the lads from sellin' band candy? B

Yah, hmmm... I'm not sure about Lisabob's observation here. Seems like, off the cuff, a larger group should have da same percentage who miss as a smaller group. Just that for the larger group that percentage is a bigger number of people. Seems like the "slippin' through the cracks" or lack of expectations and followup is the more likely culprit. Anyone else seein' what Lisabob suggests? That larger programs attract a higher percentage of hyperinvolved / transportation problem / low attending lads? I think this is where Patrol Method can play a big role, eh? There's no reason in a larger troop why everything BrentAllen suggests can't still happen - at the patrol level. Patrols are nice, small groups that are designed to build strong relationships and not let lads fall through da cracks, eh? Anyway, nice job BA! Beavah

Yah, T78, LOL. Dat's fer sure, eh? The danger in tryin' to spin off a new topic is that sometimes the warring parties in the original thread follow yeh right over the bridge and hijack the new one, eh? Beavah

Continuin' the habit of spinning off discussions or critiques from novice questions, BW in the parent thread raised a different question in terms of how to handle an inappropriate adult question at a BOR. Seems like that's a good topic in general, eh? BobWhite suggested askin' for a recess and addressin' the matter with the scout out of the room. That's a fine technique, and I've used it myself once or twice. Usually only when things had run pretty far off the rails, eh? I'd tend to reserve it for the last step before ending the BOR. I think in workin' with adults we should use the same gentle touch, kindness, and respect we use with the scouts, eh? Here's some other approaches and techniques for the arsenal: Be Humble. Trust the person knows the boy, the program, or the technique he/she is usin' better than you do, and see where it ends up. Yeh may learn something. Wait. Let the lad(s) run with it. If we've done a good job helpin' kids grow in our program, they can handle curveballs or screwballs without us steppin' in. I've never been prouder of lads than when they pulled an adult aside to deal with a behavior. Introduce humor. Lightening the mood can help a lot, while gently steering things differently. Add to the "Who are you votin' for?" question with a wry comment like " 'None of the above' is an OK answer!" Support da adult, then tack on a little explanation, that both steers things and educates the adult. "Mr. Jones asked a great question, something that all da adults here are thinkin' about themselves. We don't care who you answer, but we want to know the why - as a good citizen, what do you think is important in choosing who or what to vote for?" Let it go, then clean up later. Stoppin' things calls everyone's attention to the adult, and that can be counterproductive and embarrassin'. Lots of things aren't nails, we shouldn't hit 'em with a hammer, eh? Talk to the adult in a friendly, private way afterward; do the same with any of the kids who need support or reassurance. Give the adult space. Doesn't really apply to da BOR example, but sometimes it can help just to call the kids away from the adult for "an important task". A little time to calm down and regain perspective can do any of us a world of good sometimes, eh? Run interference. Task out a scout or another adult to occupy the attention of the adult behavin' inappropriately with a new "important task" or a cup of coffee. Let them steer things in the right direction. I expect there's a bunch of others, eh? What tricks and techniques do others have to share for handlin' the occasional adult wanderin' afield? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Is the Scout covered by BSA liability insurance? NO Where's Oak Tree? That's got to be a record! Someone bringin' up insurance in a thread about wearin' the uniform during a project! Yah, it's certainly right in part to think of ESLP's as bein' a service to an organization outside of Scouting, eh? But for those who care or worry about such things beyond their humor value, this really isn't da proper way to think about liability insurance, and not an accurate response for most ESLP's. And since questions of liability are typically questions of fact, opinions offered about liability (or lack thereof) durin' ESLPs should not be relied upon. Leastways, this old Beavah wouldn't hazard a guess. B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, Lisa'bob, I think in the best troops there's some effort made to get everyone on the same page, just as LongHaul suggests. Mostly, it's a bit less formal, but I've certainly seen some excellent documents just like what LongHaul describes. One unit I know makes new signers shadow an experienced youth or adult for a bit before they allow them to sign off on requirements. Only after they demonstrate a common standard are they allowed to sign off on their own. This also catches adult & youth skill weaknesses. Keepin' our eyes on the goals and common vision is also part of the purpose of conferences and BORs, eh? As troops get bigger, yeh need reviews and feedback to ensure program quality. I bet there are other mechanisms out there. Mostly, though, a good SM keeps his/her antennas up. It's pretty obvious when the kids have identified a "weak link" pencil-whipper, eh! Beavah

Doesn't matter if you signed an agreement or not, BSA owns the marks and can set their own rules. Yah, BSA can try to make that claim, eh? But just because someone makes the claim doesn't make it so in the real world. Scouters should always try to do what's right, of course. But in that same real world, the BSA ain't the arbiter of "right" and "wrong." That's a matter for God, conscience, citizenship, and law. And the BSA has no particular expertise in any of those things, eh? Personally, I think makin' inflated claims about the scope of trademark "ownership" is just dishonest, and one that is best avoided. Even though special interest lobbies and their attorneys would like it to be otherwise! Just a reminder that da price of Liberty is eternal vigilance. But I reckon we've once again taken a novice's question and both yelled at him a bit and turned it into a debate, eh? Beavah

Yah, don't think for a minute this topic isn't coming up at school, with friends, etc. I think it's a good question, because it's more concrete and "real" than the usual, "what are the rights and responsibilities of a citizen" stuff, eh? I like election years. They provide "energy" and substance to our efforts of teachin' responsible citizenship. Beavah

Oh, a few "cease and desist" letters here and there, eh? More likely a phonecall reminder. Not quite sure what your question is, LH. Yah, the example with Salvation Army is assumin' Salvation Army is a third party, not a CO raisin' funds for a unit. But it's all pretty funny grey zone. I expect most of us advise Eagle candidates to wear their uniform when workin' on a project, but a heck of a lot of projects are fundraisers and labor for 3rd parties, eh? Cub scouts wear their uniforms to school or to church, is that the school/church endorsing da BSA, or da BSA endorsing the school/church? It just gets ridiculous. Given a tension between your property right (the shirt and pants belong to you) and the BSA's trademark, you'd really have to go pretty far afield for the BSA to have an actionable claim. Da BSA already received the benefit from their trademark when they sold you the clothing and collected the profit. Yeh don't have to ask permission to wear your own pants, no matter what anyone claims. Practically speakin', nobody's gonna say "boo" about wearin' uniforms at an appropriate unit fundraiser or CO function. Beavah

I've been seen on non-BSA outtings wearing my switchbacks. Ach, shame on yeh lad! Don't yeh know that particular color of green is someone's intellectual property? Da BSA owns all those photons in the universe! Why, you're the same as a thieving, murdering pirate you are! Beavah

Ed, can yeh think of an example where that might be the case, and where it would also result in improvement? Only thing I can up with is a temporary disability sort of scenario. In such cases, I leave it to da judgment of the Scoutmaster, eh? Like anything, I think we all do better with real examples then with "program theory". Beavah

Neither the individual, the unit or the charter organization have the right or authority to use the name and images of the BSA to do ANYTHING unless granted to them by the legal representatives of the BSA. Nah, yeh gotta be careful about that sort of sweepin' statement, BW. While trademark law has gotten a bit out of control, it hasn't yet gone that far. We have to remember that uniforms are a clothing item that has been purchased and is now owned by an individual. Like buying a North Face jacket or a pair of Levis pants, eh? The BSA may retain the right to the logo in general, but the owner of the piece of clothin' retains their property rights too, eh? Beavah

Yah, LongHaul is from Chicago, eh? That council is just full of "interesting interpretations." Da notion that the organization holdin' a charter is a "third party" is just another sad but amusin' example. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, another masterpiece of BSA policy writin', eh? IMO unenforceable as written, should it be contested. General point is that yes, the funds and equipment are the property of the CO. Secondary point is that to the extent the funds/gear were donated/raised for specifically for Scouting, using the BSA's name, they should be kept for that purpose (or transferred to another entity like the council to be used for Scouting). Mostly the amounts and equipment are immaterial, eh? Can't imagine the "Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America" spendin' any time on disposition of a unit's assets. And most of the time the CO's and BSA are very reasonable in terms of honoring common sense. Was there a "situation" behind this question, or was it just one of those generic queries, Ed? Beavah

The best way to get a lad to do something is to suggest it might be too hard for him. (or, for some lads, to tell him he shouldn't do it ) B

There is a right way to eat in polite company which isn't taught much anymore. There is a right way to behave in church. There is a right way to dress for a funeral. There is a right way to wear a uniform, any uniform be it Army, Navy, baseball, basketball, or BSA. Yah, OK, so is there an answer key? I'm just dying to know what the "right" answer is to each of these items. Beavah

Yah, FScouter's got the right of it, eh? Before folks start yammerin' at each other about rule followin', it's important to read the rule and then to understand the rule and what it's tryin' to accomplish. The BSA cares about protecting the uniform and is concerned about not giving an "implied endorsement" of some third-party commercial enterprise like a candy manufacturer or political candidate. So don't do that, eh? Don't create a situation where you are endorsing a commercial product or service by wearin' a uniform and speaking (seemingly) on the BSA's behalf. But there's nothin' wrong with wearin' the uniform during a scouting activity, including a fundraiser like parking cars. We want people to see scouts in uniform out in the community, workin' hard and supporting themselves, eh? Beavah

Yah, what infoscouter said, eh? Don't be confusing two different things: 1) Federal Employee ID number for an IRS 501©(3) organization - used for obtaining grants and the like. 2) State sales tax exemption certificate (with perhaps a state employer ID number) - used for not being charged sales tax when yeh copy the troop newsletter at Kinkos. States are all over the place on how they handle this. In most cases, yeh should get your state certificate of exemption through your CO. It is my understandin' that some councils give units theirs. Probably not kosher, but unlikely anybody is gonna squalk. Lots of times a merchant might take your word for it on the sales tax exemption, eh? Especially if they know you and the amount is small. Depends how your state handles enforcement. Regardless, if your state offers a sales tax exemption, you should take it. That's what it's there for - to let you use more $ to support the kids, something your voters and legislature feels is important and worthwhile, eh? Beavah

Yah, hmmm... There I go again, havin' problems speakin' da language properly, eh? I really wasn't meanin' soloing on backpackin' trips, or certainly on rock! Though I find nothin' wrong with soloing myself, in fact, I like bein' in the woods and on rivers alone. I was tryin' to extend Kudu's counter-cultural notions about patrols campin' apart from each other and adults, eh? I was wonderin' if the same should apply to patrols / small groups for other activities. Kudu makes a case for T21 bein' supported by separate patrol-method camping. What about MBs? So, for example, to earn Backpacking MB, should the lads have to demonstrate their backpackin' skill as a small group, but well separated from other youth and adults (for the whole 5-day trek)? Demonstrate they can backpack on their own. To earn Whitewater MB, should the lads have to demonstrate paddling skill as a small group on a river, but well-separated from other youth and adults - runnin' their own safety, makin' their own decisions, watchin' their own pace, and weather, etc. Just because they're outside our individual comfort zones as adults doesn't strike me as bein' relevant, eh? That's why not everybody should be a MB counselor for whitewater, and why in Venturing we use consultants. The question is what opportunities and challenges we provide for the kids, not what we personally are good at. Takin' a lad top-roping on a climbing wall is a nice guided tour or amusement ride, eh? But I can't help but feelin' that it's only when we teach 'em enough to run things on their own, and give 'em that opportunity, that they really develop leadership, and character, and judgment. Kudu's young friend Marijus was willin' to push him, and pull his fellow scouts to develop independence in climbing skills, eh? I think that's what all lads really crave. Not climbing amusement rides or tourist whitewater raft trips. Really becoming accomplished at those things. I wonder if such independence shouldn't be our goal in all of scoutin'. Might be worth it for some troops to give it a whirl, anyway. Beavah

Interestin' comment on da footnote, Kudu. I think if yeh go through all the places BP used "Parlor Scouting" he's generally referring to West's corporate, adult-run organization with big HQ buildings and not much contact with kids and the outdoors. Guys, I reckon Kudu's right on the 2nd Class requirement, eh? There's just no meaning to "select your patrol site" unless it's really somethin' that yeh have to go off and look for and choose, eh? If it's a troop camporee-style encampment, you don't really get to exercise any judgment or leadership, except perhaps choosin' not to camp on top of the fire pit . But Kudu, yeh can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, mate. OGE's right, this forum is mostly a unit volunteers group, eh? Other places have more gold tabbers. If yeh want to spread the gospel, yeh have to do it by inspiring the masses, not haranguing 'em. Beavah

Yeh don't have trees in your area, CubScoutJo? I reckon tree climbin' is where most active lads develop that kind of strength. As an added bonus it's fun. Run a good natural-fiber rope up into the lower branches and let the lads climb the rope - same muscles, and a well-defined goal of gettin' up to the top / into the tree. Perhaps now instead of trees it's climbin' gyms? They're sure to have such things, too. Practically speakin', for strength training you should tell your guys to practice every other day, eh? Just like weight trainin'. Muscles need time to "recover" and grow after exercise. Dat's what makes 'em stronger, not the exercise itself. I'm with Oak on the requirement interpretation, eh? But goin' from zero to one pullup can sometimes be too much for an out-of-shape lad to do in a month or two, so most of us adjust in some way or another for such kids. I recommend the flexed-arm hang (see http://www.presidentschallenge.org). Beavah

Yah, I'm mac based on firefox, with popup blocking enabled and a full firewall. No malware present, though they did place more cookies than an average Girl Scout, eh? This was a cute javascript manipulation that came through a scouter.com page. I sent their order clearinghouse and ISP a legal nastygram when I couldn't find business contact information on the firm itself. Maybe that'll fix it. Beavah

Bravo, BA! I like that system, eh? We've got the best system around for teaching kids and recognizing their abilities, growin' 'em from novices to great leaders at their own pace. Scouting! I've always wondered why we don't just use the same system (with adult-level additions) for trainin' new scouters, instead of this lecture/seat time trainin'. A scouter who can't do T-2-1 stuff in his sleep shouldn't be out in the woods with boys. And we should encourage Scouters to get "proficiency awards" / MBs in required and elective areas too, eh? Beavah