Beavah

Why do you need an SPL and an ASPL for a troop of only two small patrols? I'd be inclined to dissolve those positions until yeh get bigger, eh? Two PLs can coordinate between themselves without needing one manager apiece, I reckon. Save da "Troop Method" positions for when yeh grow to 3 or 4 patrols. As far as your options for creating patrols, can I vote "none of the above?" I think yeh work with the lads to develop a "guided consensus." You set a few boundaries and make a pitch for a way of thinkin' about things (like each patrol has to be "viable" on every outing, and the coolest older guys are the ones who watch out for da young guys - service leadership). Then you let 'em manage da rest. But you're closer to this situation, eh? If there's some real need to break from a prior (bad) tradition, then sometimes yeh have to take the reins or push harder. B

Yah, Sprite, I think you'll find camp to be a safe, enjoyable experience no matter what, eh?! BSA camps are really set up to encourage individual and troop activity, rather than patrol method, so you'll find that it's fairly easy to adapt no matter how you're configured patrol-wise. So relax a bit! It's gonna be fine. Biggest thing to think about with a big group of 1st-year boys is havin' a lot of resources to encourage "small successes" and to address homesickness. There's two different ways to think about patrols. Some of us here advocate "traditional" BSA patrol method, where boys in a patrol are mixed-age. Older boys lead, middle-aged boys mentor, younger lads follow. Patrol competitions abound. Think of patrols like "Houses" at Hogwarts (probably where BP got the idea, from British Public Schools). Your older lads who show mentoring behavior would be natural PL's and APL's in such a system. Alternate way is da "modern" BSA method, where patrols are grouped by grade level. First-year lads become part of one (or in your case, two!) New Boy Patrols. Each gets one or two older boys assigned as "Troop Guide" to help mentor the boys in that patrol. Patrol competitions? Not so much, but yeh do preserve age-based friendships from cub dens, and have a natural group to work on advancement together, especially for their first year. Either way can work just fine, but it's not clear to me which you are usin'. Sounds like it might be the latter if you've got 9 first year boys in one patrol. In that case, I'd get da SM and SPL to recruit/assign two good older boys who are fun and good mentors to that patrol as Troop Guides (9 is a lot for just one TG, and I think TG's have more fun if they have a buddy). Meet with those TG's before camp to talk about how best to support da young guys. They'll know better than you will! So just tell 'em you're really counting on 'em to handle that, and they'll rise to the occasion. Make cocoa and dessert for 'em each night at camp while yeh talk to 'em about how things are goin', just so they feel like they're a special part of da "adult/leadership team" so to speak, and you're golden. Now, after camp, your assignment as CC is to go with your SM and ASMs to Woodbadge, to learn more about Patrol Method. And then to make sure that each patrol has its own camping gear so that it can camp together on every outing as a separate, individual patrol rather than a "whole troop." Yeh do those two things, and you'll be on your way to makin' patrols somethin' more than how you line up. Beavah

Yah, it depends, eh? If yeh are in a troop where the older boys really aren't around much because the program doesn't hold onto 'em, or where Eagle-ing at age 14-15 or so is da norm, then generally an 8th or 9th grade SPL is about right, eh? If yeh are in a troop where older boys are active (because of more well-developed patrol method/youth leadership, or more well-developed older youth programming like OA/high adventure/etc.), then an 8th grade SPL would be too young, and a 9th grader would barely cut it. I can't tell what Lisabob's troop is, but with two 11th graders running for SPL it sounds like it might be the latter (?). Lisabob, good adult leaders are always encouraging and recruitin' guys who seem capable and enthusiastic, eh? The ideal place for any scout to be is somewhere where he gets to really "stretch" and grow, but not so far that he breaks. Boys often need to be encouraged to stretch like that. I'd trust your unit leadership to have your son's best interest at heart. Maybe the SM is trying to set up a situation with an older boy SPL but a younger ASPL; maybe he's just planting a seed, knowing that whether your son goes for it or not, it will set him up to be a prime candidate for SPL next time. Maybe he thinks it's time to encourage the go-getters in the "next generation" to take the reins, or recognizes that the troop is more like da first type I mention that scotteng talks about, and your son is ideal. Any way you cut it, though, it's a vote of confidence in your kid. I'd trust your son to understand the troop dynamic and his own needs as well. Boys who think they might not win an election often protect their egos and status a bit by saying that they hope they don't win, where a small glimmer within really wants to. I think the proper thing to do as mom is to say "Wow, that's really cool and a really high complement from Mr. Scouter. Tough choice for you, though. Have you made up your mind?" Remember, as 800-lb gorilla in your son's life, it's SOOO easy for you to inadvertently send the signal that you don't have as much confidence in him as Mr. Scouter. Almost anything you say that in any way discourages him will be interpreted that way, eh? Tough being a parent. So like everything with kids, it's worry quietly, pray, be ready to support, and hang on for da ride! Beavah

Yah, I'm with FScouter, eh? In general you should avoid setting up temporary patrols just for summer camp. A patrol is a permanent group. Now, if you're gettin' a big influx of kids and just movin' into using patrol method, it can be a real plus to set up your permanent patrols before camp. That way, camp can really reinforce and "jump start" patrol method for the rest of the year. But if yeh already have permanent patrols, you should... even "must".... use them at camp. Every time you break the patrol method because someone is missing or it seems more convenient from an adult perspective, it takes three times as long to rebuild it. If you're findin' that patrols aren't big enough so that they break down on some outings, then make each patrol a bit bigger until they're consistently "viable" on every trip. B

Yah, I reckon that this is one of those things yeh just leave up to da folks who are runnin' the course for you, eh? No point in micromanaging them. IIRC, instructor cert. lasts longer than CPR cert. in some cases. So it's fairly ordinary for an instructor to assist with a class and also complete their recert at the same time, if another instructor is lead instructor on da class. Only time this doesn't work is when there's been a "major" change; in that case, all the instructors need to recert. That's my aging memory of it, anyway. Personally, I think you'd be happy to have an RN assisting with your class and improvin' the student:instructor ratio, especially for first aid. B

On almost every outing, there is a chapel service for the scouts. The adult leaders say it is mandatory. I think from now on, I will no longer be a part of the religious aspects of scouting. I'm never an advocate of "mandatory" religious services, eh? I think yeh have a good point in feelin' that's a bit off. Sometimes it just happens in Scoutin' because it's hard to supervise kids if all (or all but one) of da adults are goin' to the service. At the same time, as a guy who's grown up in a flavor of protestant Christianity, I attend da annual Catholic religious awards ceremony in our council, just to be supportive of da units I work with. I go to friends' kids' weddings even though they might be a different flavor of protestant, or atheist, or Jewish. Been to funerals of different denominations, too. Heck, I've even been to rock concerts when friends of mine or their kids have been playin', and I'm not a hard rock fan at all. And goodness knows, Mrs. Beavah makes me attend a lot of things I wouldn't choose to do on my own, eh? Lots of times, we show up to things and participate in order to show our friendship and support for other people. I reckon it would be a sad and lonely world if we only attended things that each of us personally "believed in." And consider KC's suggestion, eh? He's right on about youth groups, they're mostly a lot of fun. You can attend those just to be a friend, and have a good time discussin' issues from a different perspective. Stay open-minded and friendly. It makes life, and da world, a lot more fun. Beavah

No one in the troop knows this, but I am bisexual. LOL. Yah, well you're right about that, eh? No one in the troop does know, includin' you. Relax and stop worryin' about that stuff. You're over-thinkin' it at this point, probably because you're gettin' such a range of messages from da adult world and have a bit of a rebellious, avante-garde streak in yeh, eh? Go out and have fun and be a normal 8th/9th grader. Hang with friends of both genders. Your sexual orientation will resolve in due course over the next half dozen years or so. Until then, relax. Now, that doesn't mean yeh can't challenge attitudes that you think might be mean or bigoted, eh? Yeh don't have to be gay to step up and stop gay-bashing, verbal or physical. Yeh can tell your scout friends to tone it down, and that would be a good turn. Just be careful about prejudicial terms like "homophobia" which are bigoted in their own way. Very few people are "afraid" of homosexuality, and some folks have legitimate ethical/moral positions which should be respected and considered thoughtfully. Slappin' a label on people so you can dismiss 'em is wrong whether the label is "homo" or "homophobe". Stay in Scoutin', mate. It will broaden your worldview. Or, if yeh absolutely can't stand gettin' out in the wilderness and carin' for the environment, find some other youth program that does something similar - that gives you contact with youth and adults with different perspectives, and where you get to do fun, challenging, interesting, cool things while providing service to others. In a college town like Ft. Collins, I bet there are quite a few opportunities. Very best, Beavah

Nah, see, Avery. You're approachin' your quest backward. Faith seeks understanding. Understanding will never lead you to Faith. You believe in electrons because you trust other people. You trust books, you trust teachers, you trust scientists. And then over time, you seek more information and maybe by college or graduate school get to do experiments that might allow you to see effects from individual, quantized things which seem to have properties we call electrons. Same with History. Same with all knowledge. Yeh begin with Faith, and then yeh seek understanding. Your worldview begins with your parents' lack of religious background, eh? You trust that, and it's a reasonable startin' point for your quest. In public school, that was probably reinforced. I think it's perfectly natural for you to begin from a position of not believing in God. Now as you're growin' up, you're running into new ideas and views. In Scouts, maybe in other places, you're startin' to understand that other good people and friends do believe in something they call "God". Those new ideas might be uncomfortable, they might challenge the views you've grown up with. It's pretty natural to resist that, and to respond by sayin' "I don't believe in any of that stuff and so I'm going to quit." I think you should stay in Scouts for a while longer, unless you're afraid of folks with different views who might challenge yours. I think you'd learn that what your friends and Scoutmasters call "God" is not da same thing you mean when you say you don't believe, because up to this point your knowledge and experience with religion has been so shallow. Da question is whether you're up for the challenge, eh? To learn what other people really mean by religion before you dismiss 'em because of your own prejudice or upbringing. Not just their words, but what motivates a Scoutmaster to give a lot of time and money to make a program run for other peoples' kids, eh? What makes religions like da Catholics assume responsibility for carin' for 25% of the AIDS cases in Africa, which all governments would otherwise abandon? If yeh want to understand religion, begin with good people who you really like and trust and who are inspired to do good things, and find out what they mean by "God." Not just da words, but the deep meanin', eh? Or yeh can run away and just be with people like yourself. Somehow, my guess is that you're better than that. I figure you're up for da challenge. Beavah

Yah Avery, I reckon da point KC is tryin' to make is that young folks learn faster than old folks, and so their ideas change more rapidly, eh? Yeh don't believe in a god or gods right now, that's fine, and reflects the upbringing your parents gave you. Most young folks start with their parents' views by default, and then grow from there. In Scoutin', we tend to be pretty tolerant of lettin' young people have time to grow. But in the end, as yeh approach Eagle/adulthoood, I reckon there reaches a point where each man has to make a choice about whether remainin' a member of an organization that does profess a Duty to God is an honorable thing to do. Now let me ask you a question. When you say "I do not believe in god", what exactly do you mean by "god?" Lots of "gods" aren't worth believin' in, IMO. Or put another way, when you stand in front of other people and profess on your honor to do your duty to God, what do you mean by that? I think your Scoutmaster and your fellow scouts should be challengin' you with tough questions like that, and vice versa. Beavah

Anonymous, welcome to da forums, eh? Quick question: before da transition, had the CC (now SM) had any active involvement with the operations/kid contact side of the program? It's been my experience a lot of times that a SM should never be appointed out of the committee unless he/she is a known quantity to the boys. Everyone, youth and adults, should have an opportunity to evaluate the person in the field before makin' a decision. It's really tough when a CC just says "I'm gonna take it", because it sets up this sort of situation where there's a lot of adult ego and no way out without losing youth and adults. These things are tough, eh? From a learnin' perspective, I think yeh want to guide the boys to channel their energies well. Rather than just gripin', they should learn how to express their opinions properly to make change. The scouts should be able to present a petition and their argument to da committee. They should learn how to send a couple of representatives to meet with the COR and IH. They should consider just continuin' as they had been, and givin' the SM an agenda that they developed and were following. Organizin' and workin' the system respectfully is something all youth should learn - as well as when to accept the verdict. I don't know if yeh can steer your SM toward training and WB. To be honest, that may or may not help, but it's worth a try. I don't know if yeh can talk to some of the other dads and encourage 'em to start coming out to help, for the sake of balance. I don't know if yeh can talk to the old SM and have him come back for a "joint" six months or year with you, but he might be da only one with the social capital who can gently displace your current SM. I don't know if yeh have an active commish who can help finesse a solution. But I'd quietly pursue all these options while remainin' supportive of the SM as best yeh can. Ultimately you, too, have to accept da verdict, and then make your own personal/family decision whether to seek greener pastures. But I'd take time to gently and respectfully pursue or encourage the rest. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

These people need a 'canned' program that they can deliver to their scouts. Yah, da assumption here is that canned program and "delivering" instruction are actually effective, eh? I've watched lots of "canned" programs and "delivered" instruction over the years, in Scoutin' and out. I can't say that I've ever seen it be very effective. Sure, when you're talkin' skilled adults who are interested in a topic, they'll take a few things away from a canned program just by virtue of their own ethic and attitude as lifelong learners. But for most adults and kids? Nah. Lots of good feelings, "wasn't this great?!" stuff. Not much real sustained learning. The best learnin' is personalized, and situation-specific. The farther we get away from that, the less effective we are, and the less we're really doin' Scouting well. At best, NYLT is a small supplement to what goes on in the unit, but only if there's the sort of tight integration EagleDad talks about, so that things actually get "delivered" that apply well to a unit and the follow-up within the unit is top notch. And that's fairly rare, eh? Beavah

Nah, Sepherina. Da Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) applies only to "covered entities" - namely health care providers and insurers and such. A BSA troop, or for that matter a GSUSA affiliate, is not subject to the Act. B

Now, what is the law, both Federal and your local jurisdiction, on privacy, and minors being responsible for maintaining privacy? What's their exposure if their PC gets hacked into and the database is copied out? Far be it from me to offer a legal opinion on an internet forum, eh? I'm havin' a hard time understandin' your question though. What privacy law do yeh think applies to Scouting at all, whether youth or adults? Besides, I reckon the kids are more likely to be computer-savvy and hack proof than the adults, eh? As for how much responsibility to give to kids, I think we sometimes forget how much fun havin' adult responsibility is fun for 'em. And good for 'em. Now, if there's too much "scut work" in Scoutin', I reckon we should try to reduce it, eh? Just as tough on adults usin' up their free time as it is on kids. B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I just wanted to do a shout-out to thank Michigan (and Florida) for all da entertainment we've all been havin' watchin' the Democratic party self-destruct over whether to count da ballots... in an election with only one person's name on the ballot. I remember some months back when Lisa'bob described this mess for the first time, I got a wry chuckle out of it and figured it didn't matter. But now I think it's da best show on TV. I especially love all the Gore v. Bush references and "count every vote" spin. Tell us, Lisa'bob, is Hillary really tryin' to steal half of the "uncommitted" delegates (da votes that refused to check her name on the ballot)? I sorta figured us Republicans were toast this year. But da Dems seem determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Great citizenship topic for scouts, too! B

Yah, I just want to know who da unintelligent nitwit is who designed the black fly.

Yah, I hear scoutingagain's argument, eh? I'd encourage yeh to consider whether there's a second half to "Trustworthy", SA. That's bein' Trustworthy to the boys when you tell 'em it matters whether they're responsible and do hard work to do their job. That rewards come (only) to those who really earn 'em. And there's bein' Trustworthy to the community - to colleges and employers who look at Eagle Scout as being a young man who has worked hard to live up to his responsibilities, and done an exceptional job. Beavah

There is the thought that boys whose parents are involved tend to make Eagle more than those whose are'nt. Yah, I've heard this a lot over da years, eh? Anybody know if it's actually true? I can't imagine how yeh could collect reliable data on it. It'd be interestin' to try to figure out. Supportive parents are definitely a plus, no matter what. But I reckon I've seen every combination, from over-involved parents who drove their kids out of Scoutin' to kids who stayed in because of mom and dad. A couple of years ago I remember a lad telling me that he loved scouting because it got him away from his family (he was 6th of 8 kids and needed his "personal space"). I've also seen kids who become heavily involved draw their parents into being more active/supportive, rather than vice-versa. B

One thing I often hear is dat adults have to be responsible for safety. And of course, in the ultimate abstract, that's true, eh? I was broken of that notion by a troop in a former council I used to work in. It's so easy to forget that a lad who has been active in the program for 5-6 years typically has a lot more field time and experience than the average adult. If they've been taught how to run safety through T-2-1 and merit badges and have had that long to build experience, they're usually really sharp. They're also more fit than most adults, eh? That troop had kids who could work a swiftwater rescue or a lost hiker search as well as many pros. And when it came to supervisin' younger kids, the older boys were simply awesome. Alert, firm, friendly, funny. I got broken of da kids-and-finance thing by one mid-sized troop where the adult treasurer was an accountant and a real scouting enthusiast, and also counseled Personal Management. The PLC developed a full budget, and the youth ran the money. IIRC, there was a "bookkeeper" POR and a "treasurer" POR, da first was sort of training for the second. Kids had check-writing authority and I think da SPL and QM were each issued low-limit credit cards. The special magic of adult association. I never kept up with 'em, but I'm willing to bet a few of those kids ended up in business or finance careers. B

Yah, the original thread started a good discussion about how many adults is too many! ASM59 also raised an additional question that sounded like a great discussion as well. It seems that there are some who advocate little or no Adult involvement. Where do you draw the line with adult involvement? Do you really believe that all postions that BSA literature assigns to adults can or should be filled by the boys? Perhaps that can be rephrased as "What tasks do yeh think can/should be handled by youth in a true youth-run unit (Troop, Team, Crew, Ship)?" Are there any yeh feel must be done by an adult alone? I reckon we all agree that if we have a new unit, adults need to provide more support, eh? So in respondin', let's think about what a mature unit might do.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Interestin' the reactions. I think we've got to give it some time with da "where do we put [insert colorful optional badge or dangle]?" The right answer from the kids' perspective might be "on my wall at home" rather than on my uniform. Or perhaps, for an adult, "on my patch blanket." Had someone tell me da reason for the shoulder pocket was because when you're wearin' a backpack or daypack, the straps cover the regular pockets and make 'em hard to get to. The shoulder pocket remains accessible. That makes sense, I guess, I've just never had an outdoor shirt like that. Closest is what Goldwinger describes - da pen pockets on the arm that show up in some aviation shirts (where shoulder straps cover the regular pockets). I did use those fairly often. Had someone else this weekend tell me they have a ski jacket with an arm pocket like that for those cute little walkie-talkie family radios. Says it looks more fashionable and doesn't hurt when yeh crash the way keepin' it in a chest pocket does. Anybody ever use one of these arm pocket setups that can comment? B

Ive been tryin to collect a bit of info from units around here. Heres what Ive got. Troop A One adult who did WFA to meet da Philmont requirement. Troop uses those blue first aid kits yeh see in stores, and buys the restock kits. Kit contains cortisone cream, iodine tincture, neosporin, antifungal cream, mylanta, benadryl, tylenol, advil, loperamide Troop B Experience unclear. First Aid kit does not contain meds. However, youth have own small kits from 2nd class requirement that do contain meds. Sorta random. Troop C 80% of leaders ARC First Aid or higher, 50% WFA. All PLC members ARC First Aid or higher, some WFA. First Aid kits contain OTC meds. Several kids with chronic medical conditions. First Aid kits contain Rx meds for kids with chronic conditions. A couple adult leaders carry meds (EMT and higher) Troop D Most experienced adult is ARC Community CPR/First Aid One troop first aid box, mostly topical meds, a few tylenol. Youth meds not allowed; all meds collected, stored, and dispensed by adult. Crew A 100% of leaders WFR or higher 100% of youth members WFA or higher (most WFR) First Aid kits contain OTC meds First Aid kits for longer expeditions may also contain Rx meds. Adult first aid kits contain Rx meds Crew B Forgot to ask about training First aid kits contain OTC meds (similar to Troop A above) Yah, Im not sure what this says, eh? Units span quite a range. Laissez-faire seems to be most common, perhaps? Da units that actively carry meds seem pretty experienced/thoughtful about it. Maybe itd be good to develop several good practice guidelines for different levels? B

Yah, twice is all that's listed in the literature. I was always in favor of da notion that a boy should be publicly awarded his badge that same night. He gets to wear the badge as soon as he has earned da rank. And if your BOR was at a troop meetin' (as most are), yeh announce to the troop that night when you present the badge. Second recognition at a Court of Honor (often with the rank award card). That was what all da literature had for quite a while. This "three times" thing only got started when some councils started (at National's promptin') demanding Advancement Report Forms before they would sell da rank badges. So that meant da first recognition was reduced to a hearty handshake, and the boy then didn't get recognized by the troop or get his badge until the next time he was at a troop meetin'. Sometimes one week, sometimes a few weeks. Despite those odd councils, I expect a lot of troops are still doin' "instant recognition" and awarding the badge the same night from a "supply" they maintain. That to my mind is more in the spirit of the thing, eh? Beavah

Yah, I'm not one who likes da whole horde of adults on campouts, eh? When I see as many adults as youth it makes me cringe. Doesn't matter how great or well-meaning the adults are. If each adult just mentions one thing to the youth leaders every few hours, it means da boys are getting talked to by an adult every few minutes. Kids are like plants. They need space to grow. I think committees can get too big, too. To have an effective workin' committee, it needs to be small enough that business can get done in a meeting, and everybody buys into da mission pretty well. An "open" committee in a troop of 60 boys (120 possible parent participants) is often a problem. Here again, if each parent has just one "issue" they want to address per year, that means you're dealin' with 5-10 "issues" per committee meetin'. If one family in 20 has a "head case" adult, that's three "head cases" yeh have tryin' to hijack each meeting. Hard to get any real work done. At the same time, I do know some successful troops that have a lot of adult participants. Like mega-troops, there's usually less youth leadership there, but a lot of activity and enthusiasm. They tend to happen more in units that are pretty economically/socially homogeneous. The more "diverse," the more time yeh need to take on communication and managin' different expectations. B

Yes, I was coming from the perspective of mostly a younger Troop; mostly Jr. High aged boys with a couple of younger High School aged boys. Yah, I agree with you and VeniVidi, eh? One of the fun and interestin' challenges of Boy Scouting is to set our level of adult support appropriately. When we have capable kids, we should focus on trainin' the kids and lettin' 'em fly. When they all graduate and go off to jobs and college, or when we have started a new troop, we've got to provide additional support. That's fine, as long as we remember to fade that support out over time. Credit cards are convenient. But I reckon most campgrounds would also take a troop check. I honestly can't think of very many things the QM would need a car for. There are bikes and buses, eh? And mail order! And I think it's a fine instructional endeavor for a boy to fill out a city solicitation permit. the SM can sign, he can take it in or mail it or fax it. Same with tour permits and such. B

What could have I done at the event to end redirect the boys or at least make the situation better? A lot depends on your relationship with da boys, eh? If they know/respect/trust/depend on you, yeh have a lot more leverage. If you're just the adult that runs an occasional outing, it's a lot tougher. Particularly if mom & dad aren't backing you up. Generally speaking, removing boys from the activity ("time out") for a period of time can work OK. Second step bein' calling mom or dad and really removing 'em from the activity. I have spoken to the Cubmaster about not allowing them to attend with out a parent or guardian in attendance, Can we do that? Absolutely, yes. In fact, Cub Scoutin' strongly encourages or requires parent attendance with their son on an outing. Can they be excluded from future events some how? Yes, by action of the Pack Committee or CO. Or just by no adult being willing to be responsible for them. With day camp and resident camp looming I am AFRAID of being stuck with them for a week. You should never allow yourself to be put in a position where you are responsible for children and you are not comfortable with da situation. That's good judgment and risk management. If you're responsible for kids, you should have the skills to be comfortable and confident dealin' with anything that's likely to come up. Now, you can choose to get the skills, eh? If these young lads have known behavioral/medical conditions, you can go consult with folks who know how to deal with such things, and learn techniques for handling the kids. That's a kindness, to go out of your way to get training so that even kids with handicaps or conditions can participate. Or you can change the nature of da trip so that you are comfortable being responsible (require parent participation, have the boys attend durin' the day but not overnight, add extra adults, exclude the boys, etc. Whatever you choose, you have to be willin' and able to supervise and be responsible for the children in your care. That's point #1 of every BSA list of safety requirements, eh? Beavah