Beavah

Yah, it's always amazin' how we get suckered in and caught in Merlyn's flypaper, eh? Merlyn, I'm sorry yeh don't understand or care to understand the BSA's position on these things and how it's applied in the field, eh? But we're not fundamentalists. You quotin' isolated segments of various documents out of context (most of which aren't policy documents) is amusin' and all, but it's not the way we think about things in the BSA. Isolated quotes are interpreted in a bigger context, and most of us spend all our time doin' program or support for real kids without givin' this issue a second thought. Yeh can't quote a dictionary definition of "karma" at a Hindu and tell him he's wrong about his own beliefs. Yeh have to listen to what a Hindu means by the term karma, in the context of his faith. Same with the BSA. Your quotin' dictionary definitions and such has no meaning. Yeh have to learn what the folks within the BSA mean by our terms, in the context of our program. That requires effort, and kindness, and an appreciation for nuance and different values, eh? Probably too much work since it doesn't fit with your prejudices about us, eh? Or with your agenda. Beavah

For myself, I don't like the Beavahish quality of Andy's prose Nah, acco, Andy doesn't sound at all like me. Besides, I think he's an Antelope. All flighty runnin' around bouncin' up and down across fields while we Beavah's are hardworkin', industrious sorts carin' for our brood. And we're cuter, too. Andy's an interestin' phenomenon of a guy just puttin' out a shingle. I find he blows it almost as often as he gets it right, but if it's helpful to some that's great, eh? Can't say I could make any particular sense out of his agnostic answer, though. Beavah

Yah, I think da "tell others what not to do" thing is an at times annoyin' subculture within the BSA. We have to remember that we cultivated, selected, and trained those trainers and people who go off da reservation like this, eh? I suspect they've seen that style of leadership over and over again, so when they get in a position to tell somebody else off or frighten 'em, they do. It's certainly present here in da forums, eh? I wasn't goin' to comment on this thread, but then I looked at the last post in the canoe thread where some folks ding the Original Poster for violatin' G2SS by havin' pack paddling outings. Mind you, the original poster never said they had any pack paddlin' outings, just that they were lookin' forward to doing very easy paddling with the troop as they crossed over (troop trips, I might add, that sound like they'd be more appropriate for a pack in terms of difficulty ). It just feels so good to tell someone else that they can't do that, eh? I reckon dat's the culture DeanRx is talkin' about. It's not reflected in the BSA's position or program materials, but it sure does show up an awful lot across the country, from pros to volunteers. Personally, I think it comes from a lack of commitment to SERVICE to others, and failin' to keep the notion of friendly, kind, cheerful service at the forefront of our minds and our conversations. Doesn't matter whether we're right or wrong, eh? No unit-level cub paddlin' or no wearin' an inactive lodge flap is right, needin' two-deep for the latrine is wrong - but it's the attitude of chest-thumpin' rather than service that hurts the program in both cases. Beavah

Hiya AnniePoo! Glad to see another paddlin' enthusiast. I've known several troops that maintained their own canoe fleet very successfully. I think there's a lot of upside to havin' your own gear - it makes it a lot easier to run trips! So you're more likely to get out, and you can go places where there isn't a livery. Downside is yeh need good budgeting to keep the fleet up - money for replacin' PFDs and paddles and boats and trailer maintenance and registration and such. The units I've known have covered a lot of that cost by renting their fleet to other troops on weekends they weren't usin' it. That can be a great service for your district, and net you enough to keep the gear ship-shape. Yeh have to be careful particularly with kayaks to get boats that are properly sized for the kids. Second-hand adult boats usually don't work well. Same with canoes, eh? Better to find stuff that's smaller and lighter that the kids can handle on their own. And of course, same with lifejackets and paddles! I wouldn't be too shy of large lakes, cold water, and whitewater either, eh? Right now at age 11 your lads might not be ready for those things, but they grow fast. If your troop goes out paddlin' frequently, within a few short years those guys are goin' to be ready, willing, and able to tackle all of that and then some. Plan for that in terms of gear and gettin' adults training. Property insurance for the equipment yeh typically run through your CO and make sure it's listed on their casualty and theft policies. For internal use, BSA liability insurance covers yeh just fine. Same for rentin' to BSA units (yeh should fill out a Unit Money-Earning Application). Rentin' outside da BSA gets trickier, dependin' on the state you're in. Yeh have to be careful about regulations for outfitters and the like, and check with your council. Worth checkin' everyone's auto policy for its terms on towing. Generally speakin', trailer accidents are covered under the towing auto's coverage, but it's worth lookin' at that closely. Yeh want to make sure yeh have property coverage in place in case yeh wipe out a trailer and all the boats on the highway. Sounds like fun! Beavah

Yah, fl_mom, it sounds like some folks on the committee just didn't like the frequent, short-notice nature of BOR staffing requests, eh? Perhaps it stepped on too many people's schedules bein' called for BOR's as they came up. Adults shouldn't feel like they have to leave work early to be effective committee members. My guess is there's a happy compromise here somewhere. When are yeh havin' boards? Are you a unit that meets right after school gets out? That can be tough for adults. Perhaps a once a month BOR session on a night that most folks consider an "off night" would be a way to make everybody happy. Probably you're too close to this, though. Steppin' back to let someone else take lead in findin' that kind of compromise sounds like it might be smart, eh? It avoids adult personalities and history gettin' in the way. Thanks for your thoughtful service to the program and the boys! Beavah

I think if you are going to compare the BSA program rules and procedures that you need to compare them with countries of similar culture and social norms. Yah, except da point was the same as emb's, eh? Our culture and social norms these days are what's generatin' all this guff. It wasn't just the host country that objected in 2003. My memory was that everyone else was put off by our SSD plan and behavior. The Thais were actually tryin' to be accommodatin' and find a compromise. No question it's still possible to run an excitin' Scouting program. Also no question it's more work and paperwork, and a fair bit more adult-hands-on than it used to be. I reckon we all agree that we've seen plenty of scouters and trainers go overboard in conveyin' the "full of don'ts" approach like DeanRx suggests or like we've seen posted around here about the liability boogeyman. That's a problem. It says that folks aren't gettin' the full message of a Scoutin' program with risk management as opposed to Risk Management with an occasional scoutin' program. The BSA was given assets to run a Scoutin' program - those assets exist solely to be put at risk, not to be protected. Folks like DeanRx shouldn't ever walk out of a roundtable feelin' like he describes. He should walk out of a roundtable feelin' energized about program! That's a failure of leadership at the RT, eh? But it's a sadly common one. Beavah

No need to be sorry, cad-guy. I was the old fart who didn't pay attention to your picture. I haven't seen this particular JanSport pack, so I can't speculate on what they were thinkin'. Pack companies often put various doodads and dangles on packs more for style and marketing than anything practical. Ignore the loops, fasten the sleepin' bag to the frame. Your son will be happier. Beavah

Yah, fl_mom, this is a decision that's up to your committee, eh? Remember, it's their time you're talkin' about. Always a good idea not to try to sell other people's time. That havin' been said, I think most of us would encourage your unit to think a bit differently. Lots of troops only schedule BORs once a month, but it would be pretty rare to find a troop that only did once every three months. Perhaps a once a month schedule can meet everybody's needs? I think yeh might have a hard time givin' each boy the attention he deserves if yeh have to try to work through a whole mess of kids in just one evening every three months. That notion of givin' kids our undivided attention is why I personally prefer doin' BORs "as needed". Practically speakin', the once every three months bit won't hurt any kids' advancement unless they're an old scout runnin' into Eagle deadline problems. Sounds like a troop that is tryin' to keep advancement in its proper place as only one out of the 8 methods of Scouting. That can be an OK thing, if they're usin' the time and energy to develop other aspects of the program. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, bungees are awful, eh? Can't remember the number of times I've seen 'em fail on trips, or watched as someone's sleeping bag got dumped into a river or whatnot when the bag got bumped a few times and the bungee stretched. Big question: Is your son usin' an internal frame or external frame pack? If your son is usin' an internal frame pack, then the sleeping bag goes inside the pack, not lashed to the outside. Those "loops" you're talkin' about are either for attaching an ice axe for mountaineering or are lash patches for use with small things. Stuff the bag into the lower compartment, or put it in a compression sack and then stuff it into the lower compartment of the pack. If yeh have a sleeping pad, some folks lash those on the outside, but it's best if they're lashed vertically, not horizontally as you describe. Or put 'em inside as well. If your son is usin' an external frame pack, then Kudu describes pretty much what I would do. Take two 40" or so piece of 1" webbing with a buckle on 'em. Tie them with a clove hitch direct to the pack frame crossbar that's one above the bottom crossbar. Wrap 'em around into a big loop which also goes around the bottom crossbar of the pack the way anderle tells yeh. That way there's two points of contact (bottom and second from bottom crossbars) so the bag won't swing. The clove hitch lets yeh pull really hard to tighten things down. Again, if there's a couple of small loops near the bottom of the pack bag, those are ice axe loops or accessory patches. They aren't for attachin' a sleeping bag. Sleeping bags should always be secured directly to the frame, not to the pack bag (which will loosen when yeh take things out of the pack or move things around). Hope that helps. Of course, these are really questions your son should be askin' his Patrol Leader, eh? Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, if memory is fickle I reckon we can instead compare modern American scoutin' with modern scoutin' in other countries. Unfortunately, the comparison works out da same as DeanRx's conclusion, eh? We're far more restrictive, and far more a "babysitting" or at least risk-averse culture here in the U.S. Anybody remember the fracas the American contingent made at WSJ in Thailand? Tryin' to impose our SSD on the rest of the world's scouts who were perfectly happy with their kids just goin' swimming with supervision? At one point I was trackin' how many new rules and guidelines in G2SS were generated each year on average. I gave up after a bit. Of course, no rules are ever subtracted. And there's lots of new guidance in other areas (YP, "hazardous weather avoidance", etc.) which aren't necessarily in G2SS. As leaders, I think it's just fine to make judgment calls on mission vs. risk. Our mission is mentoring kids; if that means yeh need to touch a lad sometimes then you touch him. Our mission is outdoor adventure. If that means on a canoe trip that the lads jump overboard and go swimmin' to cool off without settin' up a buddy board, tags, and a roped swim area divided into three ability levels, that can be just fine. Understand the risks. Mitigate 'em reasonably. But don't compromise the mission with a lot of inappropriate universal rules. Some risks are acceptable risks. Attorneys and risk managers will never volunteer that, eh? It's not their job. Those of us who run the primary mission of youth development need to know where risk management must yield to program goals. A good leader will say to risk management "thank you for your input, but we're doing this anyway because it's important" and keep da risk managers in check. Good accountants can do it, too, with cost-benefit analyses . Beavah

Yah, like anything, I reckon it's best to sit down with the parents and talk about the issue, eh? Lots of time it also helps to get the parents' OK to talk to the child's allergist as well. Be upfront about wantin' to accommodate the lad, but also be upfront about the realities of scoutin' and the limits of a youth-run, volunteer supported program to keep their child safe. Explain that you're not a school with a professional staff and dietitian, and you will never be. Lots of parents understand and will help yeh work it out, eh? But be very, very careful of da ones that want you to be babysitter and take full responsibility for managin' this. In terms of prep, yeh want the boy to carry epi & high-dose fast-actin' antihistimine, and yeh want the patrol to carry it, and yeh want the adults to carry it. Train everybody, includin' senior youth and adults, on administration. Work with the boy's physician to set that up. Beavah

Adventure Scouts sounds like Brian Pasternak to me. Right in one: Domain ID:D107054584-LROR Domain Name:ADVENTURESCOUTSUSA.ORG Created On:31-Jul-2005 22:21:09 UTC Last Updated On:29-Jul-2008 17:26:19 UTC Expiration Date:31-Jul-2013 22:21:09 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR) Registrant ID:GODA-013205744 Registrant Name:B. Pasternak

Yah, Character Counts has actually been around for a long time, eh? It's a school-based program that offers character education components. Lots of schools use it in curriculum or in co-curricular ways, especially smaller districts that care about such things, or urban schools tryin' to fight the good fight. See http://www.charactercounts.org It's da primary competition for LFL, but it's older than LFL and has a larger followin'. Close as I can tell, AdventureScouts aren't really doin' anything substantive with Character Counts, though. Beavah P.S. Thanks for the info, Kudu.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I know a way out for you, mate. Go back to every kid you ever sold to. Talk 'em into quitting, help 'em get to a school counselor and a rehab program. If they don't listen, talk to their parents and tell their parents so their parents can help 'em get help. Inform the police about your supplier and the other folks who you know were sellin' to schoolkids. Your sellin' did a lot of damage to other people. Yeh don't deserve Eagle until you work your butt off tryin' to repair the damage and make the community better. It's not enough to be sorry because yeh got caught. Yeh have to be sorry enough to make big sacrifices to repair what yeh did to the community, even though it's hard, embarrassing, and unpopular. Then in 19 months, armed with recommendations from the students, parents, law enforcement, school counselors, etc. that you helped, yeh make your case to an Eagle BOR, and accept their verdict, positive or negative, with class. Otherwise you're just a poser. Beavah

Yah, what a bunch of blather. Page after page after page of PC buzzwords and fluff, eh? Nuthin' substantive at all in terms of program. Nice website template, though, eh? Funny that it's poppin' up now. Some of da stuff looks like it was written a few years back, but some is pretty recent. I wonder if this means that chap in California won da first round in the suit to strip the BSA of its trademark protection on terms like "Scouting." Anyone remember the plaintiff or which district court that was bein' heard in? Beavah

Yah, sometimes in da real world when someone holds a title but just isn't doin' the work, it's OK for someone else just to start doin' the work, eh? Most TC's are a small group of people, eh? I'd say the other parent should just start leadin' meetings and coordinatin' the work of the committee. Then, next recharter when the UC comes around, yeh make that change more formally. Doin' it at recharter avoids some of the ill feelings that can come with a COR "firing" a committee chair. Beavah

Yah, who yeh take 'em to sell to on your street is one thing, eh? But I wouldn't mess with Grandma and Grandpa if I were you. That's treadin' in shark-infested waters. Grandma and Grandpa get to dote on both their grandchildren no matter what you say. Let 'em both ask, and leave that bit to Grandma and Grandpa. I'm willin' to bet they can work it out just fine, and will feel hurt or meddled with if yeh do anything else. Beavah

Yah, OK, I'll answer da question about ectopic pregnancy. Just for you, packsaddle, because yeh said nice things about Mrs. Beavah . It's just like bein' at the scene of an accident with multiple victims. One man is trapped, in critical condition, but there's nuthin' you can do for him. His mother is also critical, but you can get to her. So you save her, knowin' as you do that that her son is sure to die. Nuthin' wrong with that. Your intention is to do all you can to save a life. The death of another is a completely unintended consequence. You'd try to help if yeh could, but you know you can't. Some things are in God's hands alone. I reckon that's a very different thing from intentionally killin' a child so that you can live a more affluent or less encumbered lifestyle, eh? One interestin' political solution would be to establish the beginnin' of life da same way we establish the end of life, eh? By heartbeat. A fetus with a detectable heartbeat is the same as a car crash victim with a heartbeat - alive and subject to the protections of the law. Yeh could even use brain activity. Seems like we should be able to agree that life begins usin' the same signs we use to detect when life ends, and then leave earlier issues as a matter of personal conscience. Problem is, both would effectively prevent all elective abortions, and the pro-choice folks won't have that, no matter how logical it may be. It's more important to live a less encumbered lifestyle at another's expense, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I'd think of things like this, gwd: 1) Do all the boys have bikes? I'm amazed to find that some lads don't own a bike these days. 2) Do all the boys have serviceable, road-worthy bikes? I reckon you'll find that the answer to this one is a resounding NO. So be thinkin' about how you're goin' to get 'em roadworthy. 3) Do all the boys have bikes that fit? My guess is that you'll have a third or more that either have bikes that are too small (most common) or bikes that are too large. Either way, they'll be sufferin' on a long ride. 4) Bikin' is one of the dangerous activities in scoutin'. If you've never ridden with kids before, prepare to be astonished and terrified by how little they know or understand rules of the road. Plan on takin' a bunch of time to teach 'em and let 'em practice on relatively safe, light-traffic roads. 5) Do yeh have any issues with fitness in the youth or adults? Fitness issues are goin' to show up a lot more on a bike trek than on a hike. For your first time doin' this, recruit a driver to drive "sag wagon" with gear. That way yeh have an out for any boy who can't continue, and support if a bike breaks down. On busy roads, the sag wagon can hang behind the group with blinkers goin' which alerts other drivers and protects the lane a bit. The kids tend to get into mountain bikin' these days more than road cycling. Someone else is goin' to have to help yeh with that, though. Beavah

Yah, OGE, it's just the tendency to run toward the extremes, eh? The Nazi holocaust is still the most powerful example of genuine evil in an organized public/political/governance arena that we have in our time and culture. I reckon it's useful to have an example of that as a touchstone. Especially for Scoutin', since Hitler's youth program very much stole the methods and symbols of B-P's scouting program. Germany's National Socialism is a present reminder to us of what democracy or scouting can do if it is allowed to run off the rails. Da problem is runnin' to that extreme of an example all the time, eh? Republicans are evil. Democrats are evil. Anyone who doesn't follow page 22 paragraph five of G2SS is evil. It's our tendency to want to find wickedness or malice in other people. That's our own fault, eh? And our choice. I think it's a bit of a drug, myself. Lots of good adrenaline gets generated by chest-thumpin' self-righteousness, eh? Personally, I think it's more likely that other folks are genuinely decent sorts, even if we disagree with 'em. To some extent, whether it's McCain or Obama, they're playin' the political game of attackin' each other just because that's what a lot of us Americans want, eh? We want to find wickedness or malice in the other side, and be reinforced in our own views of how good "our people" or "our party" is by contrast. Wins votes, but makes for lousy governance and worse patriotism. Fox News or NPR, same thing, eh? Just fellow Americans voicin' their feelings and opinions. Nuthin' wicked or malicious. I just dislike all the shriekin' because it makes it darn hard to figure out what folks positions and policies really are, and whether they're smart about 'em or stupid. Beavah

Yah, we all just all keep runnin' really far afield here. It's worth takin' a moment and reflectin' on what certain thing would mean if they were really as crisply cut as folks are makin' out. The notion that the BSA somehow sets the rules for private parties just because registered BSA youth are present is ridiculous on its face. A family is certainly free to invite all the boys in a troop to their son's birthday party, and can feel free to serve a pint to Uncle Fred at the party if they so choose. Neither G2SS nor the CO's rules apply, there is no liability for the unit/chartered organization, and of course your $1 BSA accident insurance policy wouldn't cover because it's not a BSA event, eh? That's why most families carry health insurance. Of course, yeh may have to deal with an overzealous prosecutor and a tomfool law if you're livin' in New York . Da notion that parents somehow set the terms for Eagle Courts of Honor just because they're parents is similarly ridiculous. Eagle Scout is not their award, and a Court of Honor is not their ceremony. They don't get to determine their son's high school graduation ceremony or athletic banquet either, eh? Because the diploma or the varsity letter are the school's award to give. Yah, there seem to be a lot of troops who have simply ceded the ECOH to the parents for some reason. I think it's mostly laziness, eh? Sometimes not willin' to deal with the finances and work of a shindig. I reckon it's also a lack of vision. An ECOH is one of our best venues for passin' on the Vision of Scouting to other families and scouts. Nothin' speaks louder to people than the sort of person we recognize for our Highest Honor. I figure if we're lettin' an ECOH speak primarily to/for the Eagle's family we're missin' the boat. The ceremony should be our statement to the rest of the boys and the community, includin' the members of the CO. Yah, sure, the Eagle Scout's input should be listened to, and reasonable family requests honored. But we should never let the award of our highest honor to be someone else's event. I know one Scoutin' family where dad runs an exotic dance club. Yeh think it's the parents' right to have the ECOH there? Beavah

Yah, I reckon a lot of us struggle with this one, eh? No question, abortion is murder of a human being, pure and simple. Problem for me is always that da world of politics is so darn complimicated. Now, my barber, I know he's a bit of a democrat. Should I stop usin' my barber, because what I pay him for a haircut might end up bein' donated to a candidate who supports abortion? Best secretary I ever had was pro-choice, largely because her sister had made a mess of her life through some bad choices. I wonder if I should have let her go, rather than risk supportin' pro-choice causes through givin' her a paycheck? If I support a president who claims to be personally anti-abortion, but who has condoned the kidnap and torture of innocent men, have I really done the right thing? I admit I've known some anti-abortion politicians who were dumber than a peck of turnips in the sun. Is electin' them really helpin' anyone? Aren't I responsible for the harm they do? Yah, complimicated. I decided that neither my barber nor my secretary really has much ability to affect abortions. Neither does POTUS. Manipulatin' the makeup of the courts is a fool's errand. Abortion is a question that can only be answered by the voice of the people themselves. The job of a proper Christian is to win hearts, not win votes. I reckon I don't win the heart of my secretary by removin' her from her job. Havin' grown older and wiser, I think it's obvious that we don't win hearts by tryin' to game the system or stack the courts either, eh? More than half the time, it's the politicians that are manipulatin' us, usin' an anti-abortion platform to get money and votes and then not doin' much of anything anyways. Gettin' rid of the scourge of abortion is a ground war, fought heart to heart a person at a time until we build a true robust majority. Though I reckon there'd be some bonuses to lettin' in a lot more of those Mexican Catholic illegal immigrants to help tilt the scales, eh? Those Democrats might not be all bad . Beavah

Oi! What an odd thread. BobWhite is quite correct, eh? An SE is the chief executive of a small NFP business. He has da skills of a CEO. If you're lookin' for advice on a youth issue like this one, far better to sit down with a teacher yeh know and respect, or someone else who really deals with a variety of kids on a regular basis. Otherwise, you're down to BobWhite's list of actions to choose from. 1) Call the cops. Perhaps the lad is arrested and the parent charged as an accessory or under one of the "corrupting youth" statutes. Social services will get involved, dad may lose custody. In many districts, this will also result in a removal from school and placement in an alternative education setting. Let me just say, folks, that there is no reason at all to assume a measured, reasonable response by "the system" unless yeh have a personal relationship with all the players. The folks in the system spend so much of their time dealin' with real criminals that they start to see everyone as a real criminal. Zealous representation by a competent defense attorney is therefore absolutely necessary, so this family needs to be spendin' many thousands of dollars. Boy and family will be lost to Scouting forever. Is that really where you want to go? And if it is, why on earth did yeh let this kid be a scout in your program in the first place? 2) Bring it to the troop Committee for their action, presumably to consider being ejected from the troop. Personally, I think expulsion is a last step, eh, after all efforts to work with a lad have failed. Committees, particularly committees that are mostly parents, are goin' to be all over the place just da way folks on this board are, eh? That's goin' to cause a lot of dissension within your unit, no matter what the outcome. 3) Deal with it as the Scoutmaster. Meet with the boy, maybe share with him all the comments from here, eh? Show him how serious it is, and talk about the quandry you're in. Ask him if he needs help, or if right now he thinks he could hurt somebody. Yeh see, the thing about the perps at VT and Columbine and whatnot is that they sent all kinds of warning signals and opened up to friends in advance about what they were thinkin' of. Ask him what he thinks he needs. Make your decision on where yeh go after that. 4) Do nothing beyond make a side comment to let him know yeh noticed and you though it was inappropriate, because you've known the lad and his dad for all these years and it's obvious that they're tellin' the truth - it really was just a lame joke. Your choice. I vote for #3 if yeh think there's some prior hints in this lad's behavior that he's dealing with some issues, or #4 if not. Beavah

Yah, OK Brotherhood. That helps a lot, eh? From where I'm sittin', your last "By the way..." sentence is the most important of all, even though yeh put it in as an afterthought. I've never seen a Scouter who was not comfortable and confident in his outdoor skills run a strong outdoor program. That's just human nature, eh? Leaders, whether youth or adult, tend to pull things toward the areas where they have the most comfort and skills. Show me a Scoutmaster who is a strong and capable backpacker and I'll wager dollars to dumplings that will be a troop that does a lot of backpackin'. So if you're interested in developin' outdoor skills in the scouts, yeh need to find adults who are truly proficient in outdoor skills. Same as anything. If yeh wanted your son to learn computers, you wouldn't send him to a guy whose only experience was a one-weekend Intro to Computers course. So if that's where the Committee wants to take it (and that's more or less the mission of da silent CO), yeh either need a new SM, or yeh need to be willing to finance some assistance in outdoor skills from outside consultants (like what is taught in Venturing/Powder Horn), or yeh need a SM who is really a lifelong learner who wants to put in the time to really learn that stuff - and then support him/her with a lot of training, practice, and such. Send him to LNT trainer, send him on a few trips with the local community college outdoor program, encourage some moderately challenging "adults only" weekend trips. IMO, though, you're just not goin' to get where you want to be until the adults in your program are personally proficient in the kinds of things yeh want to see the boys doin'. That's probably goin' to take a while, so come at this with a longer view toward gradual improvement. Be careful that yeh don't die on any small hills at the start. Beavah

[Comments withdrawn as just not bein' worth da trouble, eh? ](This message has been edited by Beavah)