Beavah

Well **** onashingle, there's an autocensor? Yah, dat just makes me want to break out into song... I have a sad story to tell you It might hurt your feelings a bit Last night when I walked in my bathroom, I stepped in a pile of sh--- AVing cream, be nice and clean, shave every day and you'll always look keen! [everybody now, join in...]

[applause] I reckon that was a good advancement rant. We all need to get it out of our system sometimes. There are days when I think it'd be best if we just eliminated the advancement method, it gets so dysfunctional in some troops and camps. Yah, I think da hardest thing for some adults to understand is that advancement is a game which serves a bigger purpose. It isn't its own purpose, eh? And da bigger purpose isn't to turn every youth and adult in da program into amateur attorneys squabblin' over what da meaning of "is" is. Over da years, I've come to immediately think less of any scouter or parent who comes to me waivin' requirement 3(a)(2) with some argument. Kinda like da obnoxious parents or scouters one often sees at Pinewood Derbies. Me, I always tell units that Star and Life are the spots to slow the train and work on character and leadership. Star for character, Life for leadership. Yeh shouldn't approve a Life Scout unless everyone fully expects the lad will deserve Eagle. Not fair to change da rules on a boy at the last step. I think nationally we've mostly given up, though, and I really can sympathize with lads like Lisabob's son who feel da ranks in some places don't have any meaning anymore. From what I hear from a friend, college admissions offices are comin' to realize it too, eh? Eagle in a lot of places has become a middle school award or a "seat time" award, and as such really don't have any value for college admissions. A colleague of mine won't hire any more Eagle scouts as law firm interns because he's been burned badly by da last few. Expect everything to be handed to 'em. I think where da rubber meets da road is that when we put forth a lad to be honored with a high award (Life, Eagle), to be held up to da community and applauded by all and sundry, he has to deserve it. We have to honestly believe he's a lad who is worthy of being held up to other boys and the community at large as one of our best. Anything else, includin' lawyering da meaning of Scout Spirit or "don't add to requirements" or whatnot is just bein' dishonest. Beavah

Is the concept of race something that we teach, or is it the result of an innate human characteristic and would arise again and again even if somehow we didn't teach it to our children? Yah, I think "race" is just a proxy word for "society," "culture," or "tribe." I remember once on a university campus havin' to deal with an ugly dispute between two black women. One was American, the other was African. They in no way saw each other as part of da same group. Just take a look at former Yugoslavia, or modern Ossetia. It doesn't take racial distinction to make us identify ourselves with one group and against another. The Bosnians, Serbs, and Croats seem to be able to distinguish each other well enough to shoot, despite bein' racially alike. Been among some racists who dislike Latinos, but were good friends with Philipinos or former Cubans. For them, their "racism" was really a proxy for "class." Hispanics were poor, illiterate people. Well-educated, wealthy folk of Latino ancestry were just fine. I've heard that about blacks from some racially biased folks too, eh? Colin Powell is OK. He's not "really" black; his parents were Jamaican. Their bias is targeted not so much at race, but at social group and status. I reckon our capacity for de-humanizing groups we are in competition with is huge, eh? But that's the real core of it. Religion, race, ancestry, political persuasion, are all just proxies for "my tribe" vs. "their tribe." That's goin to arise again and again. What form it takes is determined by what "our tribe" teaches our kids. Beavah

Yah, poppingcorn, what you're describin' sure sounds to me like good, common sense practice by da CC and CO, eh? Several people should have access to the bank records, eh? No aspersions on you, but there have been plenty of BSA units where the treasurers have been less than honest folks. Havin' someone else watching the flow of money who isn't related to the treasurer is a very good practice. Organizations like the Eagles that may have volunteer treasurers themselves may well be bringin' some good practices to your unit. And, too, they may simply be applyin' a rule they have for all their financial transactions, includin' their members. You can imagine what the result might be if they insisted on prompt repayment plus penalty from one of their regular members who bounced a check, but allowed a non-member cub family to bounce a check without responding. I think their member would be justifiably angry. If this is your first stint as treasurer for a volunteer or community organization, I understand how it can make yeh feel uncomfortable. Fact is, though, dealin' with this sort of thing is just part of the business, so to speak. Schools, charities, sports programs, other scout units deal with such things all the time, eh? They all end up puttin' in some kinds of rules to try to protect themselves from folks who take advantage. I know some larger troops that have been forced to write off $1K or more in a year for "bad debt" that went unpaid just because they weren't aggressive enough about maintainin' good financial controls. So yeh might not like it, but honestly what you're describin' is reasonable practice. If I knew the person, would I call and give 'em a chance to make it right? Yah, sure. Always easier to be friendly. Are there times when I think it's better to make a "business decision" to forgive a small error on the part of an otherwise big and reliable customer, just to maintain goodwill? You bet. If the person gave yeh a cash donation this last year that amounted to more money than is at issue, for example. But beyond that, I think yeh need to do what the boss says, eh? Be thankful yeh have a "real" CO. There's goin' to come a time when you need 'em. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, hmmm... From your prior post history, yeh seem to be findin' quite a bit of fault with your troop, eh? Maybe I'm just readin' it funny, though. Could also be just innocent questions about how things work. I think, as a first cut, yeh let your son handle this, eh? The boy is going for Life rank, after all, one step from Eagle. He should be mature enough to work with his scoutmaster and his rank advancement on his own, without mommy runnin' interference as AC. That has da added bonus of not makin' it look to other people like the son of the CC and AC is gettin' special treatment because of his parents. Even when it's not really true, the appearance of that can be really harmful to a troop and to a kid, eh? Beyond that, it's hard to say from afar. As a UC, if I felt the SM just didn't understand and it was an innocent mistake, I'd clue him in. That might be an option for yeh - just a friendly nudge from a friend. Not from mom or dad, though, eh? Gotta be from someone neutral. But there's also a chance the SM is tryin' to use the advancement method to teach character, eh? I'm pretty suspicious of a situation where a lad is able to switch on a dime between two different PORs in the way you describe, fl_mom. Sounds to me like the advancement and youth leadership methods aren't bein' used as well as they should. Real positions of responsibility aren't assigned continuously to serve advancement, eh? They reflect a level of service and commitment that's longer term. A lad shouldn't become Troop Instructor just as a "holding pattern" for the summer so he can "get his time in." That's not the way it works if we care about our Aims. So I'm inclined to support da SM in this. As Den Chief, your son's experience so far has been pretty broken up. A month here, a month and a half there (perhaps with a different den?). Da Troop Instructor position seems like a filler. I could be wrong on both counts, eh? But unless your son is in "time danger" for Eagle, I think he'd benefit a lot from da extra time in service. I do agree the SM should still talk to the lad, even if he's not ready to recommend him for a rank. Just like I personally feel regular BORs without rank advancement are a fine thing, eh? But in your unit where you're pretty small and lots of folks are wearin' multiple hats, that might not be practical. S'OK. If yeh don't particularly care about annoyin' the SM, makin' da rest of the troop feel you're playin' favorites with your son and all that, the proper route of appeal is as KC suggests, to the troop committee for a BOR without da SM's endorsement. And then to the district advancement committee. I agree with KC, that's playin' with fire. In a small unit like yours, it might well be a choice to sacrifice da troop for the sake of your son's Life badge. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, poppingcorn. In this case, you listen to your CC and your chartered organization. The unit is wholly owned and operated by your chartered organization. They are your "boss". You do what the boss says. Da BSA are the folks that provide materials and training, eh? They can offer advice on how to run the scouting program to you, and advice on how to handle issues to your Chartered Organization. But they can't tell yeh what to do in a case like this. The CO can (through the IH or COR), and apparently has. You aren't in the middle. You are doin' your job for the CO. It's their decision, and their responsibility. Beavah

Yah, I understand GaHillBilly's point, eh? Or at least I think I do. Sure, the BSA's goals are to teach character, fitness, and citizenship, eh? But those aren't explicitly Christian goals. And a Christian is goin' to honestly view citizenship and such a bit differently than the BSA intends, perhaps. "Citizen of the Kingdom" as GaHillBilly puts it. So what's a good Christian scouter, in a unit sponsored by a conservative Christian denomination, supposed to do so as to do his/her duty as a Christian leader, and his/her duty to da mission of the CO? I'd suggest prayer. Be an example of someone livin' a prayerful life to the boys. Pray yourself. Pray with them. Lift up your hearts together as companions on life's great adventure. I'd suggest sacrifice and service. He among you who would lead must be the servant (or slave!) of all (Mark 10:44). Be an example of humble and committed service. Wash da feet of your scouts, and teach 'em to do the same for each other. I'd suggest courage and seekin' adventure. It is a truly terrifyin' thing to be confronted by the love of God, and called to service. Doesn't take a burning bush or bein' knocked off a horse. How many turn away from da path out of fear? Out of longing for comfort and surety? Teach the lads how to be open to adventure, how to eschew comfort and to trust without surety, and you will be preparin' 'em for their Call. Yah, that's enough to get yeh goin' anyway. Beavah (as an aside, I think you're overstatin' da case on selfishness, GaHillBilly. We who would follow Christ are told by da Master Himself that we must deny our very selves, and take up our cross, eh? (Matthew 16:24). Like Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane we stand on this side of our Good Friday, sweatin' blood and prayin' that sort of test pass us by. The sure and certain hope of Resurrection is still just hope, grounded in faith and love, to be sure, but hope. Denial of self, by contrast, is real and present.)

Yah, I think he said Texas Longhorn Council, eh? http://www.longhorncouncil.org/camp/chisholm_trail_adventure/area51/index.htm Perhaps a bit "fast" (and loose?) with da limitations on firearms scouts are supposed to be allowed, too: http://www.longhorncouncil.org/camp/chisholm_trail_adventure/fast_draw/index.html And I thought we weren't supposed to look like a paramilitary outfit: http://www.longhorncouncil.org/camp/chisholm_trail_adventure/covert_ops/index.htm :) Looks like a lot of fun. Plus hatchet & spear throwin' and a few other things to boot! Beavah

Yah, jblake, in case yeh didn't catch it, you just did to Eagledad what others were doin' to you, eh? Feedback is a gift, mate. Eagledad wasn't attacking you personally. He was commenting on what he was "hearing" in your posts, and he was talkin' about your program ideas. Not about you, eh? There's a difference. Take that feedback for what it's worth. If it's not worth anything to yeh now, store it away and perhaps you'll find it's worth more down the road. If nothin' else, should you ever become a commissioner, it will give yeh insight into how other successful troops may choose to do things. Beavah

Yah, I think we need to be careful about makin' other people's value judgments for 'em. If individual units don't like to go downhill skiing because they think it's too expensive and too much like a carnival ride compared with other activities, that might be a reasonable choice for that unit. I don't think that means that all scout units should be be discouraged or prohibited from goin' downhill skiing. I've known units that didn't do snow campin' because the gear was expensive, and it was easier to camp in a cabin and then play outdoors. But that doesn't mean that other units shouldn't go snow campin'. And I sure know lots of people who are lookin' at council fees for da next Jambo and are thinkin' "there's a lot better things I can do with this money". Doesn't mean other folks who feel different shouldn't go to Jambo. I expect same applies to other things, eh? I don't particularly find video-game lock-ins to be worthwhile, but Eagledad's troop uses 'em successfully. And of course, in most of those video games kids are dutifully blazin' away at each other with "simulated" firearms. Unlike games like steal the bacon or capture the flag, I've been told LaserTag is a game where younger scouts can participate as true equals in the game with older boys. No advantage for strength or size or speed, eh? That can be valuable, especially durin' recruiting season, where webelos can be a bit scared of older boys, and find it hard to compete. Fun, friendly team work across age groups for an hour or two might be worth half a tin of popcorn to some folks. Beavah

Yah, gwd, you're right, eh? I should have been more clear. I think boys are just fine bein' creative when you're talkin' dreamin' up a new game... at an outing where they already have experience with the outing, its setup, how it's run, that games are being played, etc. And in many cases in da case of games, they're just bringin' in things that they already have experience with from other camps, school activities, etc. But confront 'em with "let's do a different kind of outing than the usual thing we do", and lots of times I've seen lads get stymied. And some adults for that matter. Not enough experience to envision da thing. It'll seem like they're lazy or procrastinatin', but they really just don't know how to get goin'. Even if they sorta come up with something, it's pretty common to run into reluctance - boys want some confidence that they will be successful tryin' something new. So they fall back to bein' conservative, and plan the activity they're familiar with from last year. Anyway, seemed to me like where Buffalo's lads are at. YMMV. Beavah

Yah, Buffalo, I hear yeh. One good way to think about PLC outings is Kudu's way, eh? Think about PLC outings as patrol leader training, not leadership training. Like any patrol leader trainin', organize it at the adult level, and take 'em somewhere new to explore. If your troop has never been rock climbin', take 'em rock climbing (perhaps at a local rock gym, or for a weekend out). If they've never been canoein' or whitewater rafting, take 'em. Skiing/snowcampin'? Lockin at da local science museum? Sailing? Mountain biking? If they've done all those things, take 'em canoeing at a new spot. Go through lookin' at da guidebooks, scoutin' a river, getting maps, LNT camping by boat, safety, what fun things are in the area, etc. Yeh use the weekend to teach skills, eh? Activity skills and leadership skills-by-doing. And at the same time yeh get them to expand their repertoire of ideas and possibilities. Boys are a pretty non-creative bunch, eh? They don't have much life experience to dream up new things, and have nowhere to start on a new idea. If yeh get 'em to touch things and taste things, and yeh get 'em basic skills in the activity and familiarity with the area, then it becomes somethin' they can plan or lead in the future. B

Yah, I'm not particularly in favor of da BSA changing its membership standards, eh? But I also don't think we've got anything to fear from competition. A bit of competition may even keep us honest. So rather than lookin' to the government to guarantee us a monopoly, I reckon we'd do just fine in a more open market, where the generic terms "scout" and "scouting" can apply to multiple groups. I see Wrenn's suit being more about Freedom than about gays and atheists. I'm kinda fond of freedom myself, especially freedom from government control of everything. Like I said, trying to maintain a government-granted monopoly is dangerous for the BSA, eh? Too easy for da government to transfer the monopoly to someone else more in keepin' with da views of a majority of congresscritters. Beavah

http://www.redlandsdailyfacts.com/letters/ci_10725948 Booed by a Boy Scout Janyth Dison Article Launched: 10/15/2008 10:28:25 AM PDT This Saturday morning as I was leaving my church's parking lot, I was booed by a Boy Scout because I had an Obama sticker on my car. I can't believe that a Boy Scout would be so disrespectful. I spoke to him, but I really don't think it mattered to him. The McCain campaign is spewing disrepectful rhetoric. Is this really what Sen. McCain wants? A Boy Scout booing a 65-year-old lady because she has an Obama sticker on her car? Janyth Dison Redlands ----- Yah, forget McCain. Is that what we really want? B

Yes the troll came back, the very next day Yep da troll came back, we thought he was a goner But the troll came back, he just couldn't stay away, away, away.... I do like da video game advertisement buy, though. Kinda creative, show's Obama's in touch with the modern world. Be nice to have a president young people can connect with. Republican Ron Paul did it first, though. Held a whole on-line rally in da World of Warcraft universe. Thousands of virtual players marchin' to Dwarvenhome or somesuch carryin' on Ron Paul for President chats. http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/01/03/ron-pauls-world-of-warcraft-rally/ Beavah

Yah, I don't know why there's always this urge to say "You're not running a Boy Scout program" or whatnot, eh? Maybe it's envy - a desire to tear others down who appear successful. Can't see any value in it myself. Folks are running a Boy Scout Program if da BSA says they are running a Boy Scout Program by giving them a troop charter. Stosh, sounds great if dat's the way you like it and your CO is supportive. If at some point there's a lad who is growin' up a bit more, becomin' a bit more mature and wantin' to see himself as an adult, and yeh need to find something new to challenge him, there might be a JASM role that could be found, eh? I'd suggest things like: * What you do as SM. I am the first contact the SPL has with the adult corps of the unit. My job is to, when requested, assist the SPL to do his job or connect him up to the necessary adult to assist him in finding the specific area of expertise of the ASM. I shadow the SPL. Doesn't seem like that needs to be an adult role, eh? A senior youth, who attends all the adult meetings and begins to understand and be trusted in that side of da operation can do that job just fine, eh? * The non-committee function roles of your ASMs. No reason why a JASM can't handle advancement records, present boys with educational resources and the like, eh? No reason why a JASM or even the PLC itself can't handle fundraisin'. * Nothin' to stop a competent youth from teaching a MB, eh? It's done all the time at summer camps across the nation. Just need a regular adult to sign off. * Leadin' revisions of your program. Starting up new projects. Debriefing the PLC and leading the development of new program pieces. For example, yeh don't mention service in your list of things adults do - perhaps a JASM to help develop community contacts for service work, and figurin' out how service learning opportunities tie in with MBs and promote that, eh? All kinds of possibilities. But I'd start with takin' a look at what you do as SM. Judgin' by your descriptions, this feels like a unit where things quietly revolve around your vision and actions. A lad who is growin' up is ready to take on that piece too, eh? Beavah

Yah, no question Wrenn's objective was to create a deliberate test case, eh? Someone should eventually go after the other semi-bogus trademarks like jamboree or scout gear, or BSA should be honorable and drop 'em. Problem with gents like Wrenn who are pushing an agenda is that they should not represent themselves, eh? A lawyer representing himself has a fool for a client and all that. Because he's so into his agenda, he made weaker arguments in his court filings than he could have, and that might determine how his case is resolved. Also bungled venue between TTAB and district court a bit. (a shoutout to nolesrule, who is right about da Lehman Act bein' an interstate commerce clause act - and therefore not subject to time limits) Beavah

Yah, I've sorta lost da thread. I think folks are talkin' about different things, perhaps? Jblake, what do your adult ASMs do? What do you do as SM? I reckon a capable and experienced youth age 16-17, Eagle or not, can do almost any of those things, eh? That's the job of JASM. Be a troop adult leader, in all but age and signatures. I agree, there's other ways to use and challenge such lads, like havin' 'em lead a Venture Patrol. Just depends on the lad and on the nature of the troop, eh? Beavah

The fact that the BSA has already recieved copyright and trademark protections from the ferderal government on over 70 words and images including "Scouting", and has had these protections for years, immediatley disproves your claim that they cannot do it. Yah, BobWhite, I've gotta agree with nolesrule here, eh? Plenty of patents and some trademarks get tossed every year by da courts. That is the issue being litigated in Wrenn v. BSA, eh? Wrenn's application is to have the court cancel the BSA's trademark protection on "scout" and "scouting" and related words as applied to youth programs, on the grounds that those protections were granted contrary to law. Yeh must remember, the PTO approved the trademark application for YouthScouts, eh? So da BSA at the TTAB was arguin' the same case in reverse, eh? That PTO was issuin' a trademark improperly. By and large, PTO is no longer doin' their job in screenin' applications for the public welfare, they're grantin' every application possible for da sake of the fees. We've seen all kinds of violations of the intent of patent and trademark law, largely used by large, well-financed corporations to prevent innovation and competition. Doin' considerable harm to the U.S. economically, but it's a great welfare program for lawyers. Another example of why government-granted monopolies are a bad idea in most cases. Readin' the charter language (thanks, nolesrule), I have to believe da charter has a constitutionality problem as well. Recall that the constitution allows congress to grant exclusive rights only for a limited time, eh? If the district court ruling goes against Wrenn based on da charter, that would be an interestin' cause for appeal, with a fairly recent SCOTUS case on point in Wrenn's favor. Beavah

Yah, I agree with many here that a lot of folks who purport to be "liberal" are some of da most obnoxious when it comes to tryin' to shout down or belittle other viewpoints. Legacy of the behavior of the 1960s, I expect. Some colleges and universities make expressing conservative viewpoints very uncomfortable for untenured faculty or students, eh? Or at least they have in the past. I think honor demands that we look first to ourselves and our own party, though, eh? So I'll trust those folks who are truly liberal to address their raving nutjobs. They'll never listen to me anyways. So let me talk about da folks who share my conservative leanings instead. There's a value to protecting process. Whether it's respectin' and defending the Constitution of the United States, or honoring the competence and service of federal attorneys, EPA scientists, State Department officials, or the internal rules of da house and senate. We have laws and conventions for a reason, eh? It's because we have mutual respect for the opposition. The opposition are our fellow Americans. The opposition are not the enemy. I think da worst legacy of the current administration has been its willingness to portray da opposition as the enemy, eh? And to be willing to dismantle a long, hard-assembled set of laws and conventional behaviors which defined how we behave even in the face of opposition. Because if da opposition really is the enemy, then the game is to win at all costs, eh? But if the opposition is just our fellow Americans who disagree, then the game is to protect them and their rights. Because some day, we might be the opposition. So we dismantled Glass-Steagall and da regulatory mechanisms which would have prevented the creation of the financial derivatives that caused this mess. Why? Because bankers were our friends, and da other side was the enemy. That was Phil Gramm, eh? Our fault, our mistake. Foolishness by us Republicans. Probably corruption, too, given who was givin' Phil lots of money. Yeh think we would have learned after Keating and da Savings and Loan debacle. Too many "C" students in history on our side. I don't think we can criticize the Clintonites for their makin' a mess of Freddie and Fannie unless we're honorable enough to admit our own failings. And it certainly wasn't the Democrats who became the party of borrow-and-spend deficit economics. Our guys. Our fault. People I voted for and supported. Federalization of the National Guard, abuse of da tempo of military operations that has hurt our servicemen and women, a bungled occupation of Iraq and a botched mission in Afghanistan. Warrantless wiretapping and illegal detentions and torture. Sacking competent, patriotic federal attorneys for political gain. Signing statements declaring an intent not to follow da law. Attempts to rewrite the senate rules to our own favor. Our guys. Our fault. People I voted for and supported. I can say things about all da dumb stuff the Democrats and liberals have done, eh? They are legion! But honor requires me to first address da log in my own eye, before I try to remove da mote from my brother's. My brother's, eh? Not my enemy's. The current spate of negative campaign ads and Obama is a terrorist screed is simply despicable. As a conservative and a lifelong Republican voter, I'm disgusted. Barack Obama is a fellow American and a patriot. I don't agree with all of his positions nor with his voting record, but to call him anything other than a fellow American and a patriot for political gain is to be da worst sort of liar. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, nolesrule, dat's true, eh? But in the case, PTO had already ruled in favor of Wrenn, finding no reasonable basis for not grantin' a trademark to YouthScouts. And Wrenn is right, eh? Scout and scouting are generic terms when used to describe a youth outdoor education and citizenship program. BSA in its own materials even uses the terms generically. Da BSA can keep its trademark on Scouting Magazine, perhaps, but not on the movement. I believe da issue in the ruling will be the congressional charter, same as it has been in occasional past rulings. That's a dangerous precedent IMO. Too easy for congress to say "well, gee, you guys aren't serving public schools anymore, lets give this to someone else." Like, perhaps, GSUSA gone co-ed . That would be quite a coup for them - bolster their membership, make 'em look like da real American scouting movement, increase their donations. Given our behavior in WOSM, I reckon they'd welcome GSUSA as da replacement for the BSA for WOSM membership. Maybe I'm just an old conservative fuddy-duddy, but I don't much care for da notion of a government-protected monopoly. Especially on educatin' and trainin' young citizens. And practically speakin', maintainin' that monopoly isn't good for da BSA or the country. Competition from da likes of YouthScouts is nothin' to fear. Beavah

No option for individual schools to opt out. Often administrators with an agenda will try to do their own thing, eh? Dat's what the law is for. Failure to rein in that principal puts the entire district's funding at risk. Schools can technically create a closed forum, where they send only school communications home, and allow only school-sponsored activities. Practically speakin', that's almost impossible to maintain and still pass levies. No PTA, no summer sports camps, no tutoring services, no notices about SAT or ACT testing or summer internships. Da public by and large wants access to their schools, eh? Good for the kids, good for the community. We scoutin' families help pay for the buildings and the backpack flyers, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, been here before, eh? PTA's are separate entities from a school district in almost all cases. Frequently they are separately incorporated. If a school lets a PTA send home flyers, it must let Scouting and other NFP youth service agencies send home flyers. Dat's the law. Same if they allow flyers from day care centers, sports leagues and the like. Federal Office of Civil Rights handles complaints and pursues investigations of violations. Penalty for a school district who refuses to comply is loss of all federal funding. Let your school officials know. I expect they really don't want to get into that kind of mess, they're just dealin' with a few problem parents who want to make a stink about scout flyers or whatnot. If they can point to the law and explain that their hands are tied, most of the shouters will go away. Otherwise, drop a dime on 'em, eh? Beavah

I think often in troops, JASMs are poorly thought-out positions. Sometimes they're a place where a former SPL goes to die. Adults don't treat 'em like adults, and as jblake points out, they're not part of the regular "hands on" youth leadership team. Lots of times I've been on EBORs where JASM was listed as a POR, and the lad really admits it wasn't a great position of responsibility for him. Yah, I reckon Eagledad has da right of it. A JASM should be part of the adult team. Meet with the adults, get an adult assignment. I think they can also be great at trainin' new adults who join the troop, eh? They should be part of the supervision of scouts, and some of the instruction and "roses & thorns" debriefs from an adult perspective. And whatever else yeh use ASMs for, eh? Budgeting, adult level planning, exploring options for new campin' areas, doin' SM conferences, goin' to district meetings, purchasing supplies, etc. Beavah

Yah, I think it's always best for us to be a bit circumspect about our expectations for Eagle, eh? When we say a lad of age 13.3 or 14-15 "should be there" I think we should be mindful that we're sayin' "in my troop's program". Buffalo Skipper points out there's a lot of variation out there in troop styles, eh? From LDS units where boys quit Boy Scouting for Varsity Scouting at age 14 (and so push Eagle for 13-year-olds), to units like Buffalo's where Eagle is somethin' that an active, young adult scout gets around to as the "capstone" of his 7-year "career" in Boy Scouting. Each helps build character in boys. Each has a point. Each way of lookin' at things has upsides and downsides, and it's right to say that two Eagle Scouts from different programs are not equivalent (any more than two diplomas or two varsity letters are equivalent from different schools). I'm personally partial to da notion of Eagle as a capstone award for a young adult, representin' the skills and maturity of a capable and talented high school senior. I respect the other view of Eagle as a middle school award (well, mostly ). Lots of different ways of usin' Scouting to achieve our aims for kids, eh? Beavah