Beavah

Yah, perfectly acceptable karl65. The custom is very much what MissingArrow describes. Wear your medal with pride, and congrats to your nephew, eh!

Yah, ScoutMomAng, good questions, eh? Some of the others have directed you to good resources. Let me therefore try to answer some of your more specific questions. The crew only meets once a month on a Monday before the weekend of an outing. Is this normal? It's not abnormal. Packs and dens have a schedule that works for the little guys, eh? Troops tend to have a regular weekly schedule that seems to work OK for middle schoolers (where a lot of activities are on a weekly schedule). High schoolers have different schedules, eh? Often stretches where they're very involved in something or dealing with final exams or whatnot, and other periods where they can focus on crew activities. Da crew schedule fits their needs. On average, I'd say most crews move away from a Boy-Scout-like "one meeting a week" thing. Do Venture scouts have badges, like boy scouts, to earn? Do they have ranks to earn? Yah, first thing to understand is that Advancement is not a method of Venturing, the way it is for Boy Scouting, eh? Lots of times adults who come up through the younger programs can't wrap their brain around that, and are poor Venturing Advisors as a result. There are some recognitions in Venturing which some kids choose to earn, or just earn as a natural part of the program. They sorta come in two tracks. Da general track of Bronze-Gold-Silver (Silver is the "capstone" Venturing award), and the crew-type-specific awards (Quartermaster for Sea Scouts, Ranger for adventure crews, Trust for religious life crews, etc.) If I were to guess, I'd say the majority of crews do not use the Venturing recognition system very much, if at all. The kids at high school level in Venturing are mature enough not to need or respond well to external motivation, eh? They're great young people and are internally motivated, and want to leave that "kid stuff" behind. I want her to be in a crew and I'm willing to get her started in one. Yah, good for you, and your daughter! One of the little-known secrets is that we have a LOT of young women in Venturing who are like your daughter - adventurous and bright girls whom GSUSA has just decided not to serve. As a start, I'd have her check out the 40-strong crew in your district. That's big for a crew, so I expect they're doin' something right. As far as starting a crew goes, I reckon a lot of crews get started by parents of Boy Scouts to do somethin' for their daughters, eh? That can be OK, but I'll be honest with you. Those crews tend not to be very long-lived nor as strong as others. Look for a crew that has some non-Boy Scouting adults and youth in it who understand and like to work with high schoolers. Also look for a crew where the adults personal hobbies match da crew's theme. For an adventure crew, look for young adults who are themselves outdoor adventure enthusiasts; for a Sea Scout Ship, look for adults who are themselves sailors in their free time, for re-enactors, look for advisors who would be doing re-enactments on their own if it wasn't for the crew, etc. Those tend to be the best experiences. Beavah

Hi SMT224, sorry yeh have to deal with this, eh? What do you think of this lad otherwise? What do the boys think of this lad otherwise? Is he a lad who is regularly a behavioral challenge? How strong are your youth leaders? How old is the boy in question? The victim? One thing to consider is talking privately to the lad's patrol leader and your SPL/ASPL. Your youth leaders see this boy when adults aren't watching, eh? They have information and insight that you need, and as leaders, they should be involved in this discussion in some way. But before yeh go into that discussion, I think yeh start with these premises to put yourself in da right frame of mind: 1) Theft is one of da surest ways to destroy a patrol, breaking the trust between boys. 2) Every single boy in your troop knows exactly what happened, and is waiting and watching expectantly to see if you care about them. They all want to know if da SM will walk the walk of all his fancy words about being "Trustworthy." 3) This is pretty brazen on the lad's part, eh? I'd wager dollars to donuts that this is not the first time the lad has stolen stuff of value. Just the first time he's been caught. And every other boy knows that, too. So what do you feel is appropriate as a lesson for all the boys in your troop? If a coworker of yours had stolen from several people in and out of the office and was finally caught in one theft by the boss, what would you expect as an outcome? There's some really good research on school violence out there which talks about how when someone gets caught in something like this (theft/bullying/etc.) and the adults do not respond vigorously, the good kids feel betrayed. It substantially increases the likelihood of future violence. I think if this is da culmination of other behavior problems that you have been unsuccessful at addressing as a unit, yeh meet with the lad and tell him he has lost the right to be a scout in your unit. Otherwise, yeh have to be awfully close to that, while perhaps leaving a small window for earning his way back into the troop in a way other boys respect. Genuine, meaningful, contrition on the lad's part, for sure. Letter of apology or public admission and apology. Suspension for a meaningful period is probably not optional. Probation for a time. Unusually hard work to "pay back" to the other boy and troop (I'd think about get a hard-work job, buying the lad he stole from some expensive iPod accessory as recompense... and then a suggestion to continue in the job until he can buy himself an iPod, eh? Learn the value of work?). If the lad is not truly, tearfully contrite, and da parents of the boy aren't 110% in your corner, I would not have a lad back. Every other boy and family is watching and forming an opinion, and you'll do nothing but damage to your troop if they don't feel justice was done. For the boy's sake as well, eh? If he's going to continue in your troop, all of his buddies and their parents have to truly feel "justice was served" or he will always be left out and suspect. As it is, every missing item in da troop for the next couple of years is likely to be blamed on him, eh? That's your baseline. Then you modify it slightly here and there dependin' on the lad and individual circumstances. Do you have strong youth leaders this boy respects? Perhaps a withering peer counseling/debrief session would send a strong message. Are their weird extenuating circumstances? Perhaps you lighten up just a touch. Yah, good luck with it, mate. As hard as it is, if yeh handle this sort of thing well in the boys' eyes, it will pay enormous positive dividends for your troop - increase trust and loyalty in particular, and empower the good lads. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

The recording, disbursing, and budgeting of troop funds, along with unit money-earning project assistance, is the responsibility of the troop committee and its treasurer. The Annual Budget Immediately after approval of the troop's annual program plan, the scoutmaster and committee treasurer should start the preparation of the annual budget. - BSA Troop Committee Handbook Yah, never thought I'd see BobWhite arguin' against da BSA program materials, eh? Actually, I agree with BW, the youth should be actively involved in budgeting. I think it works best when da youth budgeting is done at the same time as the annual program planning, eh? Good planning involves balancing what is desired or ideal, and what is possible in light of constraints like finances. So having the boys (and girls) do estimates of outing costs and attaching those costs to program features they're considering is a good way to go. Da leaders (adult and youth) just have to be prepared with prior years' figures, fixed costs, etc. At least with troops I think there's merit in simplifying the process a bit for the kids. Some units I know the committee sets the dues, and the dues then set the income side of da budget for activities. Boys can request the committee to consider dues increases, of course. Other units may let the adult and youth QM plan a gear budget separately. Some units will package up regular recurring or fixed costs so the boys don't have to deal with that (unless they want to dig into it). Yah, and of course some units just turf all the hard choices of budgeting by makin' every activity and event a "pay as you go" event as BW describes for his fictional Venture Patrol. I think there are always aspects of budgeting that we support as adults. Long-term and capital equipment. Campership support. I also think it can be hard for boys to realize sometimes when they are pricing a few of their friends out of an activity, or da limits on adult time off from work for extra adventures . It'd be nice to hear from other folks how their budgeting works for a troop or a crew, whether it's done by the youth or by the committee. Beavah

The troop has held wilderness survival, pioneering, canoeing, motorboating, orienteering, bird stufy and climbing campouts over the years where the boys camped and also earned a merit badge. Yah, this thread is spun from the Eagle Mill thread, just because it was a new twist to me on da old theme of MB fairs. Are a lot of units doing this sort of thing now? As a canoeing and climbing MB counselor, I'd certainly be uncomfortable tryin' to do either of those badges with a full unit in a weekend. In fact, unless all of 'em were really coming with a lot of prior experience, I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it. Leastways, not without badly shortchanging the experience and fudging on my duty to examine each boy individually. O'course, I'm an old fart and not as creative as I used to be. Are folks findin' this sort of thing standard practice, along with gettin' multiple badges in a day at Merit Badge School? Beavah

Yah, I reckon "It would seem a lot of unit leaders aren't teaching them how to plan" is also a shot, as well as several sentences before that, eh? I don't reckon jet526 was lookin' for a "national consensus", and we certainly haven't offered him one, eh? I think he was just lookin' for ideas and a view of what da range is. We do that each year when we consider summer camp fees for our council, eh? Not because we don't know how to plan a budget, but because we do understand marketing and management. What other BSA and non-BSA camps are chargin', and how they're handling discounts, camperships, fundraising, program budgeting, etc. is informative and helpful. Seems like BrotherhoodWWW's troop runs a fine and thoughtful program, and his families with their calculators I bet are quite grateful for such an opportunity for their boys. BobWhite, however, should probably not join that unit. Back on topic, jet526, I'd encourage yeh to take a look at what other sports and extracurricular program in your area charge per season. Seems like as a rule of thumb most families don't mind paying for a year of scouting what they pay for a season of sports. Yeh also might think about doing one-day fundraisers like breakfasts or dinners instead of sales-type fundraisers. Sometimes those make for higher participation in Boy Scout aged families. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

So would it be good to talk to the COR and the CC and ask to have my name put in for SM? In a word? NO! At least, not if there isn't a current or anticipated vacancy, eh? For me, someone who is "pushy" about being a SM or an ASM is a red flag, eh? That says that da person for some reason really wants to have contact with kids, rather than just help the program. Creepy! Possible predator behavior, or at least someone who is goin' to be a risk and disruption. As a CC or COR, I would listen to yeh, check up on things, and then gently move you out of any committee or leadership role because you're sending up red flags. There's nothing worse for a program than disruptive adults with their own agenda. If yeh didn't get the message, I would invite yeh to consider the merits of the exit door. Again, Scoutmaster is a "by invitation only" role. You don't put your name in. If there is an anticipated vacancy and those in charge of making the appointment believe you are the best person for the job, you will be invited. If not, yeh won't be. Think of it like being high school football coach. You don't get to "put your name in" because you want to be your kid's football coach. Yeh don't get to decide whether the coach current coach is retained. Da school considers candidates when it has a vacancy, and looks at qualifications and fit for the program. Scoutin' is the same. Beavah

Yah, Pappy, thanks for da update, eh? I think yeh chose the proper route, and it seems like the chartered organization agrees with you (I assume your 82nd airborne priest is the IH?). That is the way things should work. If a CO does not find the BSA helpful as a partner, or does not find the BSA program fits its needs, it should look elsewhere for a different program and partner and make the change. Opening such adventures up to being co-ed is also interesting, and I bet you'll have good luck recruitin' scouts, former scouts, and other children in your area. Please do check back in every now and then and give us a brief update on your unit's successes and challenges, eh? We can always learn from each other. I've been familiar with Civil Air Patrol and some JRTOC programs for many years, but not Young Marines. Good luck to you in your endeavors, and thank you for your work on behalf of young folks in the U.S. Beavah

Yah, so BW, what are dues for your Ship, eh? That was da question. jet526, I think the highest dues for a troop in our area are on par with BrotherhoodWWW. Maybe a bit higher, because I think they do quarterly. That unit then doesn't charge any additional fees for anything - no nickle and diming at all. Dues level sets da budget the boys plan on. One fundraiser, mandatory participation, goes toward gear. Nah, thinkin' about it, I take that back. I think we've got a troop that does $5 per week that the boys collect. Not sure how many weeks are counted. Same deal I think. More common is about $30 - $75 per year, plus fees for each campout. $1 or $2 per meetin' collected by boys. Fundraisin' and how it's used or applied is all over da place, but almost all units have some notion that a chunk or percentage of fund raisin' goes to the troop not to individual accounts. Beavah

Nah, GoldWinger, not a medic. JAG. There's a reason for da Constitution, laws, and the UCMJ. And for USDB Leavenworth. Yeh see, there's a difference between NCA micromanaging operations and the Congress and DOD setting the laws and regulations by which our military men and women are to govern their actions. The former, I agree, can be anywhere from annoying to stupid. The latter is what makes us Americans, and better than those whom you call "towelheads". The American People are not sheep. America's laws are not optional for those who wear a uniform. And if asked, I will happily assist in prosecutin' any "sheepdogs" who dishonor their oath and their uniform by acting otherwise. Because yeh see, that kind of dishonor is what feeds the wolves. All of us have friends and family and former scouts in uniform. Many of us have had friends and family die or be injured in the line of duty. Myself included. They died to protect our Constitution, values, and liberties. There are bad men and criminals, and not all criminals wear uniforms. Yah, and sometimes, people not wearin' uniforms aren't bad men, but innocents caught in da wrong place at the wrong time. Happily, in our system of government, all prisoners, whether criminals or enemy combatants, are dealt with honorably and according to laws. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, not sure what yeh mean by a formal complaint, eh? Who would you file it with? Can't say as I know of a "formal complaint" mechanism in most districts or councils. Do yeh mean a formal complaint to law enforcement? B

We are the ones who make a better world So let's start giving There are people dyin' And it's time to lend support to Life, the greatest gift of all. Not at all a bad sentiment, eh? Perhaps a touch more musical than On my honor, I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times. But of da same cloth, eh? Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... sheep, wolves, summary execution. I don't believe I have ever heard more succinct and powerful arguments for civilian control and oversight of da military in my life. B

Yah, first off I don't reckon cheffy has standing to bring a suit, eh? And proceedin' solo on such a suit would be a very, very, very bad idea. The choice to bring a suit should be the beneficiary of the project. And I really don't reckon most NFPs and churches want to be in small claims court over a change of bids. Kinda wrecks their goodwill as NFPs and churches. Same with da BSA, eh? As close as I can tell, this sort of thing is pretty normal in building contracting. Yeh get a preliminary quote, but then when the contractor actually looks at the thing it's different, or the cost of materials has gone up or whatnot. Regardless, it's a pretty ordinary snag for an Eagle Scout leadership project. Something that we expect an Eagle Scout to be able to handle. Sorry, cheffy, in my neck of da woods there are people who would not sign off on the project as being the boy's own work if you stepped in and bailed him out of this. You and the ASM don't want to compromise your son's Eagle project. Let your son get frustrated, get angry, and work through it himself. He will be so proud, and you even prouder, when he succeeds that way. Dat's bein' a true Eagle Scout, and Eagle Scout dad. Beavah

Yah, cookiemonster, I think yeh joined in the "polarizing" there, eh? I think it's important to recognize when this topic comes up that nobody is talkin' about what a kid is or isn't capable of, eh? We're talkin' about how a program should be structured. Naturally, each of us, especially those of us who are volunteerin' at the unit level, have a bit of a bias in favor of the way our unit does things. I've seen many wonderful ways for a program to be structured. And da thing is, those young, bright, high-achieving lads, they behave differently in different programs. It's not that one program affords 'em opportunities and another denies them or holds 'em back. It's that the programs offer such lads different opportunities to challenge themselves and achieve. Some programs emphasize advancement, and place a psychological premium on rapid advancement and lots of badges, eh? In those units, high achieving kids do that. Dat's a program choice more than it's a kid choice. Some programs emphasize outdoors and depth of knowledge for advancement. In those units, a high achieving boy might take three years to make First Class, but he can run circles around most 13-year-old Eagles when it comes to skills. That, too, is a program choice. Some programs emphasize maturity of judgment and leadership. In those units, a high achieving boy might not advance very fast at all, but he'll take enormous pride in how the boys in his patrol are doing and how he's helped 'em grow and get better at things. Just depends how a program wants to approach things. Of all da units I've seen, the ones that do the best with bright, high achieving lads IMO are the ones that require depth of knowledge and skills rather than rapid advancement. That type of lad seems most at home and seems to grow the most facing that type of deeper challenge. But those units can sometimes be too much for "part time" scouts or lads who aren't as bright or motivated. B

Yah, ditto BobWhite, eh? Seems to me the young Eagle candidate should be able to use Google as well, eh? A simple search on "custom fire pit spark screen" does get hits. Beavah

Yah, wait a minute, eh?! I got da scouter.com curmudgeon award and nobody ever gave me the knot?? I think packsaddle is just tryin' to keep cozyin' up to Mrs. Beavah. She's been sayin' he's not so bad for quite a while now. Next thing I know, she'll be makin' him cookies. I can't speak for GW's issues, eh? But I've oft observed three kinds of faithful. Those with the simple, blind faith of children, those who rebel against the superficiality of faith to "think on their own" like teenagers, and those with a rich faith that recognizes the failures of religion and religiosity while also acknowledging the underlying truths of creation and divinity which can be expressed by religion. Like adults, eh? Each has their place; their time and purpose in individual lives. Beavah

Yah, Rooster7, that's an "ends justifies the means" argument together with a willingness to let the president and da military be above the law. Waterboarding was a favorite torture method of da Spanish Inquisition, eh? Used right there alongside da rack. Got all kinds of false confessions that way. I can't say I have much truck with those who try to weasel their way around what da definition of "is" is, eh? Or "torture." Is it hard to be ethical? Yah, sure. Easier to hate our enemies than to love 'em. Easier to do what seems expedient in da short term than what is right in the long term. The road to hell itself is paved with da intentions of those who would commit such crimes, eh? Good intentions, to be sure. And yet still wicked acts. B

I suppose if one water board victim was spared the trauma (i.e. the experience of feeling like he was drowning), it'd worth the lives of 100 American soldiers. Yah, ABSOLUTELY! Torture is contrary to da law, contrary to our values, and contrary to our national interest in the rest of da world. Our use of torture arms the enemy and alienates our allies. Those American soldiers are puttin' their lives on the line to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States - our freedom, and our rule of law. I know of no American soldier who would not willingly give his life to defend our laws and our nation's interests. Beavah

Yah, I agree SctDad. They are prisoners of war. And as such, we have a lot more duty under the Geneva Conventions than just keeping them alive, eh? Yep, the other side has executed some prisoners and abused others, much as da Japanese did during WW2. We tried and executed those folks after the war for war crimes. If we ever get back into the war in Afghanistan enough to actually win it, hopefully we can capture and try those guys for war crimes as well. I don't reckon any loyal American feels that we should be committing war crimes just because the other side has, eh? Beavah

Yah, scoutingtexas, welcome to the forums. How do you put your name in to be Scoutmaster in an existing troop? Simple answer. You don't. Scoutmaster is a "by invitation only" position, eh? If there's a need for a new Scoutmaster, the COR and troop committee will discuss the need, consider possible candidates, and then approach da best person for the job with an invitation. I agree with Lisa'bob and BeaverIII, eh? If you are interested in the position to help your son (first...and also other boys...), then you'll never be a good SM. A SM works for the Organization and the troop first, and then for the leadership boys and the boys most in need of his/her attention. If a parent as SM can't put the program and other boys ahead of their own son, they'll be neither a good SM nor a good scouting parent, eh? Might be best if yeh take a step back and give your son room to have fun and grow. Big trees can protect little ones from da rain and wind, eh? But they also block out the light needed for the saplings to grow. Beavah

Yah, what Brotherhood said! Always a danger in appointing a "warm body", eh? I reckon in a lot of cases it's best to leave da position unfilled for a bit until someone natural steps up, if a unit isn't capable of identifying and recruiting a good person. Even then, yeh sometimes get guys who behave differently when they're put "in charge" than when they were helpers. I kinda take BobWhite's line on this, eh? If it's a good chap who is fumbling da ball because of lack of knowledge, steer toward immediate training, plus some hands-on coaching by a UC or da SM. But if it's a guy who isn't a good fit for da job, it's easier to to change his role than to get him to change his spots. With a troop your size, cheffy, there's got to be other good candidates. Give him a nice award for his service and move someone better into the role. This time, no "warm bodies" eh? Another good notion is to always have a process of "6 month review" or "12 month review." An option for either the individual or the troop to make a change as part of the normal course of business without any loss of face or hard feelings. Beavah

Yah, fishbelly, not enough information, eh? All I can guess from your post is that there's a lad who has had repeated brushes with da law, perhaps involving inappropriate actions with young women? At a first cut, this is da unit's problem, eh? Dependin' on the nature of the crimes and the mission of the CO, I can see the unit either being a safe haven and anchor for the lad as he works through his other problems, or I can see it bein' reasonable for the unit to drop his membership. Just depends. For me, struggles with personal issues like minor alcohol or drug use, or an isolated incidence of poor judgment like petty theft or small-scale vandalism (spray paintin' your school's logo on a rival high school sign), are things a strong unit can help a lad with, but a weak unit probably can't. For me, crimes like assault, battery, possession with intent to sell, etc. are ones where da better lesson for all involved is to remove the scout. Sounds like you are anticipatin' havin' to deal with this as a district or council advancement committee when it hits you as an EBOR. Those are tough, eh? A unit is recommending the lad, but one of the jobs of the council review is to protect the reputation of Scouting in awarding its highest award. If a lad has plead guilty or been convicted of a fairly recent crime that goes to character, and yeh have definitive information about that as opposed to gossip, I think it should be a substantial part of da BOR discussion, eh? And quite possibly a reason to say "no," after yeh review all the information on the lad. Far better lesson for this boy and all the boys if the unit were to deal with it thoughtfully and well, eh? And a strong unit should keep da district and council apprised of its thinkin' so there are no surprises. Beavah

Yah, I agree with Liz, eh? And I agree that each unit needs to figure out what its goals and da goals of its CO are. Nothing wrong with a young Eagle if the lad has met your aims. Just that each program should be thinkin' first and foremost about its Aims, and not about da advancement program. We don't want more Eagle Scouts, we want more young adults of good character and informed citizenship. It is taking about a year for our Scouts to reach First Class if they are reasonable active (assume playing one interfering sport a year). Less active takes longer. A very active Scout First Class takes about 8 months (near 100% attendance). We have about 1 of those a year. So here's part of what I mean. Right now, if any of us were to grab one of our 11-year-old First Class scouts at random, could he, on his own with no adult help whatsoever, pack his gear, buy his food, and go on a 10-mile weekend backpack trip that included off-trail navigation and hiking? Eat well, camp well, and Leave No Trace for da entire trip? In "bad" weather? On that trip, if he came across someone with a malfunctioning backpacking stove who suffered serious burns, would he be able to properly secure the stove, respond to the burn, evaluate the burn, clean and dress the wound, treat for shock if appropriate, and manage an assisted evacuation? What I personally struggle with sometimes is that I don't really believe it's possible for an average 11-year-old in a typically active troop to have really learned da full T-2-1 skill set in a year, if what we mean by First Class is what Scouting has traditionally meant by First Class Scout, eh? Being a fully-capable solo outdoorsman ready to lead others. Especially if the lads' experience in the unit isn't "school," with an adult-driven "curriculum." Sometimes, I reckon adults make da Aim of First Class Scout being to "get" First Class, eh? Meaning practice 45 individual "requirements" in isolation until signed off, instead of use 'em together to be able to do somethin' on your own. For me, da citizenship goal is only met when the boy is able to do, on his own. Well, for da BSA, too, if we go by their literature . We are headed toward having several 13 year old Life Scouts and one 12 year old Life Scout. Some are likely to become very young Eagles compared previous years. Which I'm sure reflects da adults' way of lookin' at and usin' the program, eh? Could be a fine thing. But it's worth it for every unit to take a look at whether what we do is meeting the Aims of the program. I've seen units where an average Eagle Scout project involves 40-50 man-hours of labor, and the lad essentially follows a plan similar to what other boys in da troop have done, assisted by mom & dad & SM & Eagle Coach. And I've seen units where an Eagle Scout project involves 300-500 man-hours of labor, and every one is a unique project which reflects da special personal interest of the boy, with no Eagle Coach. Nuthin' wrong with either, eh? But worth considerin' what we want for our expectations and "results" in each of our units, eh? And what those who sponsor us want and expect. None of the different approaches have to do with addin' or subtractin' from the requirements. They have to do with the goals and culture of each unit. ASM411 describes da culture of his unit changin' to havin' more young, rapid rank advancement. That can be a fine thing, if done consciously, with an eye on da goals, not on da number of kids achievin' rank. I think all of us old-timers see more and more units movin' toward young, rapid advancement without really being mindful of aims and goals, eh? That's an advancement mill. Probably another good test of an Advancement Mill is this. As an adult in your unit, time how much time you spend talking about or managing advancement vs. anything else. When yeh talk to kids, how many conversations do yeh have where you don't mention anything about advancement? If more than 10% of your time or conversations are about advancement, you're probably an advancement mill. Judgin' by da Scouter.Com forum percentages, I reckon a lot of us are over-emphasizing advancement. Beavah

Yah, this might be an interestin' example of how patrol method can be done poorly, eh? "when there was a large influx of new members, the adult leaders thought it best to get these older guys in their own patrol" Troop seems like it might have taken its best resources and most long-time members and rather than give 'em responsibility with new guys coming in, shunted 'em to the side. Maybe because the troop adults are better at handlin' middle school lads than understandin' high schoolers? Maybe because these boys were felt to be a poor influence? Or, quite possibly, because they like being adult-run, and so they don't have anything for these older, leadership-capable lads to do. I think it's very very hard to keep older scouts in a troop if they don't have real, honest-to-goodness leadership roles. High adventure by itself usually fails. Boys crave respect and responsibility more than they crave adventure, eh? In fact, they probably go after adventure because it brings 'em respect and responsibility. One at a time, your SM has to get to know each lad, not da group. And with each lad, figure out what role they can assume that gives 'em genuine responsibility and a chance to earn everyone's respect. Then put 'em in the role, and back away a bit. B