Beavah

Yah, evmori's got the right of this, eh? There's really no point in debatin' bylaws and procedures and whatnot in such a small group. You've identified the problem, so deal with the problem. Your CC should have a personal conversation with your COR and together they should remove the disruptive individual. Or, if she really wants, yeh can all vote on her removal at a committee meeting. Four votes in favor, one opposed. The ayes have it, don't let the door hit yeh on the way out. Sounds like da outcome would be the same either way. Bring the conflict to a conclusion and move on. Beavah

Yah, Silver Loops for CORs. They are council scouters, even if da CO only charters one unit. A COR who is dual-registered as a CC or MC, however, may properly wear the uniform of that role (and the respective unit-level loops) when servin' in that role. Beavah

Nah, I'm not a TroopMaster user, so maybe I'm just confused. If TroopMaster has a field that you can enter to tag an event as hiking or backpackin' or fishing or whatnot, that has nothing to do with the BSA or advancement, eh? That's just record keeping for the unit or the boy that says "I've been on 12 hiking trips" or "the troop has run 20 backpacking trips in the last two years" or somesuch. So why would you be interested in "the BSA position" on somethin' like that? The BSA has no position on how to enter extra fields in a non-BSA piece of software. Why would we? It would be entirely up to the "opinion" of the troop in terms of what yeh were interested in recording. So in that case, I'm not sure what yeh mean by "giving credit", eh? Unless you decide to have an in-troop award for boys who have 100 days of hiking or somesuch. In that case, yeh can give credit however you want to, eh? It's your rules and your award, not the BSA's. But if you're talkin' about the BSA's position, as you mention, we only have a position about da BSA's awards. And for those, only the MBC can "give credit." Beavah

Yah, it's like kudzu. 100% pass rate, bah! Still, it should be CC or COR who takes up this task, not SM dad. This belongs to the CC because it's the Committee's approval of the boy's project which is being questioned, eh? CC should rightly defend the approval decision which they made. Yah, and it's da COR's task because as a voting member of the district committee he/she is tasked with participating in the oversight and approval of district positions, eh? Odds are that approval votes on the slate includin' DAC are comin' up this month. B

Even a 15 year old honor student is no match for a very large, very intimidating, 60 year old man who tosses his packet back at him and says, "Nope, not good enough." with little in the area of explanation. Yah, da thing of it is, a 15 year old honor student is a match for such an individual. But only if you believe in him. Let your CC and COR work the problem respectfully but firmly with the district/council. This kudzu does need to be trimmed, I agree. Let your son work the problem of his Eagle project respectfully, actively, and firmly with da individual. He's old enough and talented enough he doesn't need you snowplowing for him, eh? But he does need your calm confidence in him and his abilities, and your encouragement. Beavah

Yah, they're not "merit badge type requirements", eh? They're Merit Badge requirements. The BSA position would be that unless you are that boy's MB counselor for either backpacking or hiking, you may not approve those requirements. So you may not "credit" the boy with anything, beyond the T-2-1 requirements he fulfilled in the trek. Using Troopmaster (or a pen and paper, or a website...) doesn't make you the MB counselor for those badges, eh? Best not to mix up the rules for decidin' on advancement with a tool for recording advancement. Otherwise, ljnrsu's got the right of it, eh? The boy can use day 2 for one of the 10 mile hikes for Hiking MB, provided that boy himself prepared a hike plan for the hike beforehand, and provided that the boy himself wrote the required after-hike report. OR, the boy can use the three day trek as one of his short backpacking treks for Backpacking MB, provided he hiked and camped in accord with LNT principles for your area. Not both. And da respective MB counselors can review those expectations when the lad makes an appointment to meet with them, eh? Beavah

Yah, I've seen this a few times, eh? Had to prune da bush of bureaucracy myself on a bunch of occasions. Or prune da people causin' it. Don't know why, but da Eagle "process" stuff grows like kudzu. For all that, I'm not fond of trotting off to the Scout Executive. This is a volunteer matter, not a council business matter, eh? It is something the SM, CC, or COR should raise respectfully directly with the DAC, then district chair and council advancement committee. Quietly, on the side. Then more firmly if needed. In the meantime, though, I'd let your son work the process, eh? If he's a 15 year old honor student with all those other things under his belt, he can work this problem. Good lesson for him that not everything comes easily, and bureaucracy's a bummer. Sometimes even really bright, active lads get discouraged, and have to work extra hard to overcome obstacles. Da real reason to fix this is so the process doesn't wipe out other lads who do not have your son's talents or supports. Yah, and while criticizing others we should always look to ourselves as well, eh? A good thing to look at in your unit is whether in the course of planning outings the boys are expected to do things similar to the plans for an Eagle project. Troops do have to come part way to meet the district. Doin' a safety plan, budget, work plan, duty roster, getting approval, etc. should be part of the youth leaders' daily lives in a troop. Beavah

Yah, I vote for lashing as archaic. Knots are OK, provided that they're useful knots for a lad to learn in his unit. Taut line is a silly knot when yeh can use the trucker's hitch. Troops that do a lot of climbin' might use the climbing knots (figure 8 follow through, water knot, etc.) but never use a bowline. Sea Scouts might use a bowline but never a figure 8 on a bight. Perhaps the goal should be to learn and demonstrate 3 knots your unit uses regularly. Patrol flags might be archaic. I don't know very many troops at all that do the flag thing for real anymore. Patrol yells might even fall into that category. I reckon we need to make fires optional, eh? Just too many places in da country where open fires aren't possible. Sad to say, I'd put wood tools there, too, eh? Too few places they're useful on scout trips. I like da swim requirements. Not archaic at all. But line rescues are archaic and dangerous and should be dropped. Da "three things you should avoid doing related to the internet" I suppose isn't archaic, just goofy. Only three? Bugling MB's time I think is gone. Probably some others. Dog Care can be merged into Pets. Not sure we really need Basketry. In their place, it would be nice for us northerners to be allowed more than one badge for "Snow Sports", eh? Cross country skiing, downhill skiing, snowboarding, ice boating, snowshoeing, sledding, etc. are more different than Rowing and Canoeing, eh? Beavah

Yah, Chug, I reckon a part of what you're not appreciating is that on this side of the pond our Patent and Trademark Office has run amok. So have our copyright laws for that matter. It's a Yank thing. We took da PTO off of the federal budget so as to hide our deficit back in the 90s. So now the only way the folks who work in the office get paid is if they issue patents and trademarks. Their budget depends on not denying many applications. This in turn has encouraged entities to file lots and lots of very broad patent and trademark applications, partly in self defense, but also as a business tactic. A large company can file lots of applications, and use 'em to stymie and block competition from smaller companies who can't afford the legal and research time to fight these bogus things in court. Even business methods have been deemed patentable in da U.S. For example, WOSM lists at most a couple of trademarks, but da BSA lists about a hundred. And uses 'em to stifle any competin' association. Da arguments Kudu is makin' are real arguments, eh? The term "Scouting" is our registered "property", so nobody else can use it. Includin' a British troop visiting the U.S. Yah, don't worry, though. We're doin' our best to export our system to Europe, eh? And you folks in G.B. were dumb enough to join the E.U., which has become a primary target for our government and major corporations to push this stuff on you. In our last WOSM dispute, we forced out the Secretary General with financial blackmail, eh? Next time we want to force WOSM to do somethin', we're just goin' to claim that we have exclusive rights to "Scouting". I know it sounds really odd that any civilized people would think this way, when it obviously serves no civic purpose and when Scouting clearly predates the BSA. But yeh have to make allowances. We're American. Beavah

Yah, all youth programs have some form of Methods, eh? There's all kinds of great programs for kids out there. I think we're all naturally biased in favor of da one we're in, but we should be honest. We don't serve all boys. BSA mostly serves rural and suburban Christian-background middle class white lads, and a relatively small fraction of those. We haven't had much penetration into da urban communities or immigrant communities at all. We've abandoned public schools as charter partners (about the only institution that can be legitimately pointed to as tryin' to serve "all" kids). We're not a really great place for lads with more severe emotional or physical disabilities. And like most youth programs, we have a duty to protect the majority of the boys from the occasional bully, drug dealer, thief, etc. even though those boys "really need Scouting." There's lots of other fine programs out there, from JROTC and CAP to Boys & Girls Clubs, 4H, Campfire, etc. to church-based programs like CYO and youth groups, to sports & extracurriculars and schools that offer outdoor leadership programming, to whole schools built on the Expedition Learning/Outward Bound model, to hobby organizations and martial arts programs. I reckon our local chapter of the national mountain bike association offers great fitness, citizenship (includin' involvement of youth in local planning & government), and character (includin' more trail service time than most lads get in scouting). Point is that there's lots of great programs for kids, eh? Thank God! We need all of 'em, to reach all the kids we possibly can, because we're only of long-term interest to a fraction. When I'm with parents, I never talk down other programs. I talk up Scoutin', fer sure, but I encourage all da rest. If a lad leaves Scoutin', I think we should work with him and his family to find another program he can learn and grow in. We should keep in contact with other programs for that purpose, and because they will have boys and girls who leave their programs who might find Scouting to be their thing. Same with us adults, eh? I could never work in 4H. Doesn't have the "zip" for me that Scouting does. But I've introduced some adults to 4H who weren't happy with Scoutin' and found it to be a great place. Yah, and I've recruited a few 4H adults into Scoutin' too. Havin' lots of programs lets us help more adults find ways to serve more kids. Beavah

Socialism is when the Government decides how I will donate my money, and I will fight that to the death. Yah, yeh better get a refund from those very good schools, eh? Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned by the community as a whole. Like how we all, through the government, own Amtrak, AIG, a large portion of da financial industry, and pretty soon a few inept and bankrupt automobile manufacturers. What scoutldr is describing I think is called "taxation", eh? That's where the government decides to take some of our money and use it to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for da common defense, and promote the general welfare. It ain't socialism. Now, I reckon folks have never liked taxation much, they'd rather other people defended 'em for free, and provided roads for free, and all that. You know, kinda like bein' a feudal despot. But ordinary taxation is what I reckon most of us teach Scouts goin' for First Class is part of their responsibilities as a citizen. Of course, we do have a mostly socialized education system, which is perhaps why it underperforms so much, includin' failin' to teach people what "socialism" is. Speakin' of definitions, I've never been called a "paleo" anything before, The Scout! Yah, well, maybe when da scouts call me paleolithic. I don't reckon us real conservatives are quite as nutty as Ron Paul, but I get your drift. We certainly aren't in favor of what Bush became in the end. B

Yah, at one point I was tryin' to keep track of all da odd things the Federal Reserve was doin', and how much it was intervening not only in our market but in foreign markets. I confess I lost track around $1.5 trillion. Anyone know of a site that's keepin' score by listing all of the "Treasury or Federal Reserve hundred billion dollar programs of da week" that have have hit the streets in the last few months? B

Yah, sorry eisely, dat's a pretty skewed and incomplete description, eh? It leaves off all da shenanigans with tranched CDO's and derivatives, makes no mention of the reductions in reserve requirements in Europe, the dismantling of Glass-Steagall, the role of the Federal Reserve with prior bailouts and excessively low interest rates, the impact of da U.S. debt and on and on. Reads like just another partisan spin tract focusin' on only part of da story. Yah, there's an extent to which one can argue that federal policies encouraging home ownership via debt (includin' the deduction for home mortgage interest) create market distortions, eh? It's a part of da story, but it ain't even close to a more scientific or objective review. Here's some others for folks: http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/09/18/credit-default-swaps/ http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/09/23/credit-default-swaps-2/ http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/09/24/financial-meltdown/ And on AIG in particular: http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/09/24/credit-default-swaps-3/ B

Actually, funscout, my personal little boycott of Domino's has nothing to do with McCain. Yeh believe their pizza crust is takin' jobs away from cardboard manufacturers? Or that da yellow plastic stuff they use for cheese causes global warming? B

I really have to wonder about our educational system. Yah, I knew things were bad in the schools some places. But I at least figured fellow conservatives actually got enough schooling to know what "socialism" really means. Government bailouts and major stock purchases in corporations is socialism, eh? Government ownership of the means of production. Yah, and it's "redistribution of wealth" too, eh? From the taxpayer straight into the pockets of inept or corrupt business execs. This Republican administration is engaged in the most massive socialization of risk in da history of the country, picking and choosing winners (AIG) and losers (Lehman) in the private sector with a trillion or so of our tax dollars. No, sorry, with a trillion dollars borrowed at interest from the Chinese by mortgaging our grandchildren. Anyone surprised that AIG is gettin' the bailout when they had the most effective government lobbyists? Anyone astonished that the AIG execs are still takin' million dollar partridge-hunting resort junkets at our expense? Yah, that's "neo-conservative" socialism and redistribution of wealth for yeh. At least helpin' my neighbor keep a roof over his kids' heads feels a bit more like plain old Christian charity. If da government has to do one or the other, I'd rather it be the latter. And quite frankly, I wouldn't mind a lick if we re-distributed all the net worth of da greedy fools who served as execs and board members of financial houses and insurers and auto makers. When you're the guy responsible and things fall apart because of your decisions, you should take the hit personally. Not flee on a $100 million taxpayer financed golden parachute while your workers and your neighbors are left jobless or homeless. I reckon we've had neo-cons and pseudo-religious politicos for so long that a lot of folks have forgotten what it means to be truly Christian conservatives. It sure ain't to boycott fellow Americans with different political viewpoints. It's to behave honorably, with personal responsibility and charity toward others. Yah, and to hold those with responsibility accountable. Da Republican Party was held accountable by the people in the last election. That is conservative, eh? B

Yah, I think right now da Federal Reserve and Treasury are conductin' one great big uncontrolled experiment, eh? With da competence typical of the current administration. B

Yah, this old Beavah is with Chug's young Beavers, eh? The World Scout Emblem really is a meaningful thing across many nations and scouting associations, even though we haven't promoted it here in da U.S. as much. Of course, we don't often behave as da model WOSM member, eh? B

Best cure for a bad Troop is to organize Patrol campouts, if only in the form of a "Patrol" of adults camping at some distance from your son's Patrol. Nah, Kudu, here I disagree. Not if da bullying thing is goin' on unaddressed. Yah, it's true that part of the reason it's unaddressed is the adults busying themselves with kid-jobs, eh? But not really. Adults who allow bullyin' to happen are folks who aren't very alert to what's goin' on for kids, and who are the sort who can't bring themselves to step up and confront a person/problem directly. So rather than address the bullyin', they avoid it by busying themselves with other tasks and minutia and whatnot. Adult-run is a symptom of the underlyin' problem, IMO. Not the cause. Only out is usually with a change of leadership, since yeh can never get someone who's afraid of confronting a kid/dealing with a parent/personal conflict to really change. And yeh can't really get someone who genuinely doesn't notice a bullied lad's pained look or the bully's surreptitious grin to pay attention. Someone who does notice kids' attitudes and ain't afraid of takin' responsibility is also goin' to be someone who can get a troop to run real patrol outings, eh? They notice kids and want to build effective patrols/teams. And they aren't afraid of confronting kids with choices or adults with quiet firmness to get 'em to buy in or back off. They have a vision for the troop and a will to drive it there. Beavah

No, my point was exactly the opposite. If the California Prop 8 is allowed to stand, I see no reason why women wouldn't be able to restrict the "opportunity" for men to vote, if they chose to do so. Yah, of course they can. Get a supermajority of both houses and 3/4 of da state legislatures to agree, it's a done deal. A constitutional change is a constitutional change. Now, some might argue that it should be harder to change state constitutions than it is in California. And it is indeed harder in some states, eh? But that's not the tradition in California. Might be a wise tradition for California, given the tendency of it's legislature to be stupid and it's courts to be into promulgating their own philosophy more than da law. In this case, the nitwits on the California Supreme Court invalidated a law that had been overwhelmingly passed by voter referendum not more than 7 years ago. What did anybody with a brain think was goin' to happen, for cryin' out loud? The voters put their law back in place, but this time put it in the constitution where the nitwits couldn't touch it. Perhaps a better lesson would have been if they also put in place recall provisions for judges at da same time, eh? Then next time the court goes rogue, they can fire 'em in addition to reversing them! B

Yah, in the much-resurrected Patrol Boxes thread, a whole mess of different posters made comments about how patrol boxes/large propane stoves/etc. were necessary to do "real" cookin' - anything more than boiling water and rehydrating a meal. I'm left wonderin' if this is what a lot of people are doin' when they're backpackin'? Nothing but rewarmed turd or freeze-dried cardboard meals? No wonder a lot of troops don't backpack! I've done quite a bit of backpackin' and an awful lot of canoe camping with lightweight gear. Can't say I've ever eaten just-boil or freeze dried food. To my mind, this is a skill every adult scouter and every First Class Scout should have, eh? You really can prepare any meal you would find at any reasonable restaurant on a lightweight camp stove. In our colder climes yeh even have natural refrigeration for part of da year. Yah, OK, maybe I'm just a touch skeptical of Kudu's Beef Wellington while backpackin', but that's pretty froofy food anyway, eh? Yeh can do it, but why would yeh want to? Now, a lightly grilled or poached fresh coho salmon, mind, is a different story! Is this a bigger issue than I thought? Somethin' that we should address in trainin' or a supplementary module - how to's of LNT field cookery? I reckon it is one of da shortcomings of the BSA Fieldbook and Handbook, though both recommend lightweight gear. What have other folks seen or experienced?

Yah, I reckon it's completely fine for a lad to wear the badge at least until he's out of high school, eh? Seems to me they can wear the badge on Venturing green until 21. I wonder if that means as youth members in OA they can wear the badge until they're 21 on Boy Scout khaki? Not worth fightin' over. I reckon a lad should be allowed to wear the badge at least long enough to get some enjoyment out of it, and inspire others with it. So if he Eagled at 17.9, give him at least a year's grace. At some point, it'll get old and he'll want to transition to the knot to feel more adult-like. At least if he can sew! Beavah

Yah, da problem, DanKroh, is that they never had the "right" in the first place, eh? Instead, they did the thing that Senator Obama cautioned against in his radio talk. They made manipulation of the courts, rather than convincing the hearts and minds of fellow citizens, their sole standard in the struggle. The courts succumbed to the manipulation, eh? So the people rebuked the courts. That's the nature of constitutional democracy. When yeh overreach, whether on gay marriage or the unitary executive, the people may call yeh on it. What would be true tyranny is if the courts got to overrule the people on a constitutional issue. Look for these new legal cases to go nowhere. Just people tyin' up the courts with frivolous cases to vent their spleen. Gay marriage is dead in California (and in every other state where it has been put on the ballot, so far as I know). Beavah

Yah, Oldsm, here's a different tack for yeh. Have your son ask whoever is putting the event together what they would prefer. It may be they would prefer him to wear his youth uniform, because what they are tryin' to convey to people is the experience of a youth. That includes talkin' with your son before or after his speech about what the (youth) patches mean, his MB sash, etc. Including his Eagle patch, but not da medal. Save the medal for the COH. Or it may be they want to convey a young-adult-product-of-the-program impression, in which case he should wear his ASM uniform with the Eagle square knot. Someone spent a lot of time putting this event together, eh? And they thought your son was perfect to keynote it. That's high praise! He should return the honor by respecting their wishes, and helping them achieve the result/effect they want to the best of his ability. The future campin' opportunities of a lot of scouts may depend on it! Beavah

Yah, these are tough, eh? Always best to find a different venue where you can take everybody who's qualified. Why not Northern Tier (or one of da private outfitters in that area) instead of Tinnerman? Where you have to select, I reckon it's something like this. Most important * Physically qualified for trip (health, fitness, strength for portages & long paddling) * Skills qualified for trip (strong swimmer, great camper, canoeist) * Maturity/Scout Spirit qualified for trip (this is a biggie, eh? Nuthin' worse for a crew than blowing this call). Should be strongly considered * Current active member of PLC (set an example that hard work and leadership earns rewards). * Very active troop participant and likely future member of PLC (boy will bring skills he uses back to the troop to teach/help other boys). * Age (as a "has fewer chances left" for high adventure, but only if they meet the "active" bit). Might be used * Rank (as a proxy for skill / maturity, but only if in your unit rank really means skill/maturity, not just parents pushing or book-savvy kids). * Merit badges (see rank) * Age (as a proxy for physical ability / maturity) All these to my mind can be a bit of a cop-out, sort of an objective substitute for doin' our real job of evaluatin' the other things mentioned above. But because they're objective, they perhaps avoid arguments. Be careful * First-registered * First paid I say this only because there are some families who are organized, and some who aren't, eh? And fer sure, there are some families who can afford to just write a deposit check, and some who have to plan and budget and save and work for it. If you use one of these criteria, it's real easy to miss the fact you're takin' more well-off lads with better family support, and perhaps cutting out the boys who will appreciate and benefit from the trip the most. I would always open an adult spot up for a boy if it meant a boy who wanted to go could go. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm. I was referin' pretty specifically to "this particular election", eh? Not to the election of 2000. Da stated goal of Osama bin Laden is to re-establish the caliphate, with him as caliph. That's kind of religio-political supremacy is central to Islamist thought, eh? Sorry if anybody missed da references there. Beavah