Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... I think yeh want to tread awfully carefully here, NancyB. Without solid proof, a lot of what you're writin' here may well be defamation. And if you're an employee of the county or know one (which is da only way I can imagine yeh being aware of confidential investigations) and are releasin' that information, I can't imagine you or your friend keepin' their job. There's so much innuendo and accusation here (the jambo SM is beatin' his son and havin' extramarital homosexual relations with your scoutmaster?) and other low-probability stuff that I suspect not all of your information is accurate. Sometimes two guys go to non-scouting public events because they're friends, eh? The fact that your council seems to have been informed and yet hasn't made any changes seems to support the notion that all this might not be what you're suspectin' it is. But, your role in this is clear. 1) You share your concern in writing with the council SE, carbon copy to the council president, if yeh feel that a council-level volunteer poses a risk to kids. They have procedures for investigating such allegations. But again I'd caution you to be careful not to libel the leaders. 2) If you personally feel that a leader is unsafe or doesn't support your family's values, yeh don't send your child on trips with that leader, period. And honestly, no leader in his right mind would take your son on any trip given your allegations. Just too dangerous for da leader. So no jamboree. Beavah

Yah, and an overzealous prosecutor too, eh? I think it would be hard to make an aggravated assault case against an 18 year old for an accident like this. Clearly the parents were pushin' it. That happens sometimes, but it's more likely to happen if da parties get adversarial early on. What's interestin' would be how many minor incidents of this type have occurred over the years, eh? If da BSA would responsibly share incident & accident reports, perhaps a greater number of older youth and adults would be alert to the risks of various situations. Adding to policies or after-the-fact "education programs" don't usually gain much traction in terms of real prevention. Beavah

Yeh can always PM one of da moderators. I have. Guess they're all away from the keyboards tonight. B

Yah, thanks SMT244. I understand. We sometimes use da tools that get people's attention. B

Yah, I don't know yet if this is just rumor or not, eh? Hard to figure out who does what down there after the reorganization. I think it's keepin' with a trend and some external pressures is all. Writin' is nice, but if yeh really want to achieve something you contact your council office or COR and find out who your representatives to the national meeting are, eh? Then you contact them... in person. Send 'em off to the annual meetin' with an agenda to push, eh? Those are da folks who elect the BSA's board. Have 'em communicate directly that yeh want to see Risk Management's Wings clipped. That we put kids and character development ahead of dubious legal risk management. Enough folks do that, it will be felt. Other way is to back door it through relationships, eh? Have your CO communicate its displeasure through its national scouting association. BSA's not all that great at listenin' to letters from consumers. But customers (CO's and councils) get listened to. Beavah

Yah, grumpy day at da forums. Knew the insurance boogeyman would show up. So, if anybody got at all worried about Hal_Crawford's scenario, let me ask... Do yeh ever drive carpool for your son's soccer team? Do yeh ever have your son's friends over to your house for a birthday party? Or just to play in the yard? Your risk exposure from drivin' carpool is goin' to be a heck of a lot greater than takin' a few boys camping. Car accidents do bad, bad things to young bodies, and a car full of kids can run to millions in liability exposure, blowin' through individual auto and homeowner policies. So if yeh drive your son's friends home from the swim meet, you've already taken on more risk then yeh would helpin' some lads go camping. That swingset in your back yard? That tree that the neighbor's boy climbs without direct supervision? Yeh can make yourself nuts with this stuff, eh? Point is, trained scouts on a hike ain't nuthin' compared to the other risks we all incur every day without gettin' ulcers. If it bothers you, take out a bigger personal liability umbrella policy. They're cheap! Yah, and Salt Lake Council was sued because its employees started da fire, eh? The rules are a bit different for kids; often parental liability for acts by children is limited. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Why do we declare something not worth fighting over, and then fight to justify it? Nah, not fight to justify it, eh? Just admonish folks who get judgmental over trivia and forget the whole Friendly, Courteous, Kind bit. The problem is that some folks don't consider where they wear a sash for a kids' program trivial. They raise it to the level of lawbreakin', and claim that if yeh don't follow the Insignia Guide next thing you'll be stealin' cars. Rather than congratulatin' the SPL on a well-run Court of Honor they'll go yell at him for wearin' his sash. They make it more important than Friendly, Courteous, or Kind.... or Creative or Fun or Practical, for that matter. That is worth fightin' over, because it's not an example most of us want for the boys. Beavah

This to me is a verbal contract. To add a signature to this strengthens the contract. Just curious, SM224. Why? Isn't the boy's word fully binding? I expect yeh teach 'em that their word is their bond, and they live up to it even if there isn't documentation. If the lads in your troop were to appear in court and swear (verbally) to tell the truth, would that not be strong enough without a signature? In contract law, a verbal contract is binding, and the presence of a signature does not make the contract any stronger. A sworn verbal statement is just as binding as a written one. The documentation just provides proof, eh? Makes it easier to enforce, and provides a mechanism for dealin' with misunderstandings and disputes. But it ain't "stronger." So is that somethin' you really want to teach your boys? Yah, guess I'm just feelin' like an old-fashioned curmudgeon these days. I prefer Grandpa Beavah's notion that the measure of a man is livin' up to his word. Beavah

We all know we are talking about finding a way to get around this potential change in policy. Yah, so? What we're talkin' about is a licit way around this potential policy. Ain't nothin' unethical, immoral, or incorrect about that. In fact, that's what most good, ethical folks do when confronted by a stupid policy, eh? They find a licit way around it. Sorry, there's nothing at all wrong with Scoutmaster Smokeshifter standin' up at a meeting and announcing that the church is also running a Pop Warner football program and any boys who want to come try out should show up on Wednesday evening, where Assistant Scoutmaster Whatchamacallit will be assistant coach and several troop committee members are available for carpool duty because their kids are interested. We call that "crossmarketing". Lots of troops chartered to churches announce other church-sponsored events at their meetings. And there's somethin' wrong with a troop that won't let a boy announce to his patrol-mates that they're invited to his birthday party. So although competitive football ain't allowed in Scouting, if the entire troop decides to also join the church's Pop Warner program, that is a licit way around the rule. The BSA can't tell the church not to sponsor a Pop Warner team, nor can it forbid boy scouts from playing football outside da BSA, nor can it tell its adult leaders that they can't also be coaches for another organization, nor can it forbid announcements of other church youth programs at a meeting of the church's scout troop. Fact is, we have all-female Venturing Crews we've accepted into the BSA which were chartered just so a GSUSA unit could get around the often ridiculous GSUSA outing rules, eh? Are you sayin' that because our Venturers are also registered Girl Scouts, they can't participate on Venturing activities if da GSUSA wouldn't allow the activity? Like BrentAllen, I find this notion that BSA guidelines can creep into people's personal lives to be bizarre and more than a little disturbin'. I suppose next will be that if an adult hasn't taken da BSA's new chainsaw safety class he's not allowed to use a chainsaw on his own property. To be honest, I think teachin' kids somethin' like that is unethical and more than a bit unAmerican. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, ScoutMomSD, from what you describe, your chartering organization would likely be considered an unincorporated voluntary nonprofit association. Most states now I believe have adopted some form of the uniform statute to govern these entities. In California, yeh can find it in the Corporations Code sections 18000 and following. If California offers exemptions from sales tax, income tax or other privileges for nonprofits, they would, I presume, apply to your group on that basis. The IRS would presumably recognize your statement of purpose as bein' compatible with section 501©(3). You are not required to file a 1023 for such an entity provided the three year rolling average of gross receipts is under $5,000 (don't yeh wish they'd adjust these silly numbers for inflation?). That may or may not be the case with your cub pack. If you need an EIN for some reason (bank accounts are most likely), yeh can file an SS-4 and check the NFP box, just as ljnrsu describes. If your gross receipts are above the limit, then if you wanted to act as a tax-exempt charitable organization you'd have to go the 1023 route, which is, as others have described, a bit of a pain and expense and probably not worth it. Honestly, though, you're misapplyin' your CFO skills to somethin' that's just silly. Unless your cub pack is rakin' in the dough, you're livin' in that magical land where nobody cares. Like payin' the kid next door to shovel your sidewalk without verifyin' his citizenship or withholding FICA. Nobody messes with these small little unincorporated associations because it would be a nightmare. There's a bizillion of 'em. The cost of tracking would vastly exceed any possible revenues generated. But, as someone else mentioned, this is one good illustration (among many) of why da BSA generally discourages units chartered to these groups. If tryin' to sort through all this stuff and stay squeaky clean is important to yeh, then go find your pack a "real" chartering partner. Beavah The text in this post is discussing loose principles as a theoretical educational exercise only, based on published documents. Nothing herein should be construed as a legal opinion or tax advice in any way. It's just the musings of some anonymous internet character named "Beavah" who is only licensed to practice his golf game in the state of California.

The worse incident I've seen (ok overheard since it was a phone call) is parents refusing to pick up their son... Yah, what I'm confused about is how all da paperwork changes this problem a lick. What do you say to the problem parent over the phone? "Look, here, I've got an unenforceable contract signed by your kid that anybody who knows a thing about real contracts would laugh at, so you better come get your kid?" Nah, you're still in the same boat of havin' to deal with the problem more directly. Real contracts have certain characteristics. Mutual consideration. Meeting of the minds. Parties are engagin' in the obligation under free will and without coercion. As close as I can tell, most of these school "behavior contracts" meet none of the characteristics of real contracts. They're one-way extortion deals. What an awful example to set for kids. "People in power should use the forms and mechanisms of law to extort behavior from others under threat." And yeh wonder where we get "bad" lawyers from. Plus, has anybody yet met a teen who won't argue every word of such an agreement? If we make a "contract", we're bound by it then, eh? And they're free to find the holes and loopholes. While that can be a fun game, does anybody really think it teaches honor and citizenship? Save contract law for when you're buyin' a house for your kids. Not for raisin' them. Beavah

Yah, CubScoutJo, before considerin' any action it's worth considerin' whether that action is consistent with our goals and values, or is worth a plug nickel. Personally, I can't see subjectin' every lad in the troop to some paperwork thing just because yeh can't get the adults to confront and deal with the couple of boys who are startin' the troubles, eh? Better to address the trainin' of the leaders. But if you insist, here's an addition to the parent permission slip. "I agree that my son's participation in this troop/pack activity is entirely contingent on the approval of the registered leader in charge of the activity. In the event the leader requests that my son be removed for any reason, I shall be responsible for securing appropriate and timely supervision and transportation." B

Yah, sorry emb021, that's a load of cow pies. What a private university does with its own organizations is just a completely different case, eh? And even then, in gets sketchy. Very sketchy if it's a public university or the kids have competent counsel. Personally, I really dislike that kind of bullyin'. Especially because yeh won't see those college officials shuttin' down the highly lucrative football team after several of their members get wasted at an "unofficial" event, eh? I think what may be drivin' this a bit is changes in statute and case law in some states, eh? Texas in particular has some really expansive definitions of child abuse and neglect which can be read to include allowing patrol outings. Professionally, I detest expansive statutory language. At best, it's welfare for attorneys. At worst, it can easily be used as a creepin' assault on liberty. IMO, however, the proper response of executives paid half a million dollars a year should be to confront such expansive language and lobby on our behalf to protect our programs, eh? I'm not holdin' my breath. My observation has been that Irving has been overrun by legal risk managers rather than program people and professional outdoor risk managers for a number of years, eh? I'm not expectin' anyone to stand up and say "this is central to our mission and we accept the risk." I mean, we have G2SS prohibitions now on toy guns and water chugging, because no 40 page document can't be made better by turnin' it into an 80 page document. If there is any societal trend that I wish we'd have the courage to stand up to, it's this one. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, Riptyd, your follow-up message must have come in while I was typing mine. Glad to see yeh backed off the "verbally abusive" rhetoric. Snide comments are just snide comments, eh? What you're telling us now is that the CM has the most experience of the group, and that the district folks in your area essentially discouraged you from proceedin' on this course of action. From afar, that sounds like they view the situation differently than the way you see it. Now you're sayin' that you want this person to stay around for their experience even though they're demonstrating values that aren't appropriate for children. Huh? I think we're back to a notion that the adults are behavin' like children and gettin' into an ego shoving match. And that particular tango takes two. All parties should retreat to neutral corners and go spend some time in church prayin' and rememberin' what they're there for. The kids! Yeh all are in that "storming" phase that we talk about in training, eh? "Top dog" types can be great unit leaders. They insist on high standards, and tend to step in when they feel a leadership vacuum. My guess is yeh wouldn't have a pack but for this Top Dog doin' just that, eh? But top dogs do tend to be blunt and step on toes, and it takes a bit to figure out how to work with 'em. Yeh need other folks around who understand and work with their style, and provide some buffer for other adults. My advice would be that if you proceed with an effort to oust the cubmaster, you're making a decision to destroy the pack. Is that price worth payin' to continue an adult ego fight? How are the kids doing in the pack? Maybe if everyone started thinking and talking about them again, you'd see a way clear to a resolution. Beavah

Hi Riptyd, Does your "parents of" chartering organization have any legal presence in any way? In other words, has it ever incorporated, or filed association paperwork with the state? Does it have any bylaws? If not, I think yeh call a general meeting of the parents, and vote to remove the cubmaster, then notify the BSA. Quite simple, really. Be sure to change the checking account, his access to the pack account at the council office, notify the officials at the school where you meet and all that pronto. And then yeh might consider association paperwork and bylaws, or charterin' with a more "permanent" organization. If on the other hand you do have some sort of legal presence, you'll have to deal with the situation accordin' to your bylaws and the laws of your state. Of course in that case, if he appointed himself head of da organization contrary to those rules, yeh might hint that kind of thing could put him in all kinds of legal trouble and use it as a way of encouragin' his departure. All that having been said, I always get just a bit skeptical whenever I hear things like "out of control", "verbally abusing other leaders" and such. Ninety eight times out of a hundred these are just adult disagreements where both sides are gettin' childish, and more than half the time the unit leader is in the right. And "verbal abuse" is a serious thing, eh? Usually describes somethin' that we take people's kids away for, or encourage women to seek shelter from their husbands. Usin' it to describe unrelated adults yellin' at each other probably isn't quite fair. Perhaps if all parties toned down the rhetoric there may be some ground in the middle where yeh all put kids first? Just perhaps. Hard to tell from afar. Beavah

Yah, I really hate da notion of kid behavior "contracting." What a farce. Be adults. Have the courage to expect proper behavior from your kids without relyin' on pseudo-legal mumbo jumbo. B

Yah, I don't reckon that even at its most arrogant the BSA would presume to tell other NFP entities that they can't solicit cash donations, eh? The boy is doin' this for some community agency. It's perfectly fine for him to solicit donations on behalf of that agency, including cash and cash equivalents. Indeed, I reckon in most councils it's a standard practice for Eagle projects. And for an unsolicited cash donation, the donation is not the boy's or the BSA's to turn down, eh? That's a free-will donation being made to the community agency. The boy as agent has a duty to convey it. Only the agency he's doin' the volunteer work for has the right or authority to refuse it. We adults make this stuff so unnecessarily complicated sometimes. Beavah

Yah, has anyone noticed that it's only the adults that get in these chest-thumping food fights over uniformin'? And for that matter it's really only adults who spend a lot of time an energy writin' "uniform policy"? Put together, yeh have adult-driven-and-written pages of uniform policy scattered across multiple documents which few mortals can interpret effectively (includin' folks in Supply!), and which da kids honestly just roll their eyes at or ignore completely. And, to be honest, so do most adults. Rightly so, I reckon, because it has so very little to do with our mission. In fact, I reckon da poor example offered by those adults who squabble over da uniform all the time really harms our mission. Mrs. Beavah doesn't like it when I swear, but I swear sometimes that we need to ban all uniform documentation and burn all existin' copies. Just provide the stuff, and let the kids and units decide what they want to wear proudly to represent themselves and us. Which was of course da point in Venturing, until some adults started up with writin' "uniform policy." It's like an itch to be **smelly critters** that we just can't resist scratchin'. Beavah

Yah, so it seems I'm on the modern kick, eh? I was really quite surprised by da parent thread, because I guess I'm an old fogey who still carries cash. Though I do like my new card that I can sort of wave at the scanner without even takin' out my wallet. Now a question for the group. In this modern cashless and electronic age, what are your units or districts/councils doin' in terms of handlin' transactions? Electronic bills / statements? Online payment / fund transfers? Credit card payments through PayPal? Online Scout Accounts for da boys managed by the Troop Scribe? Particularly since OGE (whom I consider a fellow old-timer) mentioned that he never writes checks anymore, I'm wonderin' how da "modern" troop gets and spends money. Please share your great ideas as well as your experience with pitfalls! Beavah

And that's usually the example I use to explain it. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation with a gun to my head. But the years I spent taking math taught me a method of logical problem solving I use everday. Yah, but that worked only because both you and the teacher actually cared about learning how to work the quadratic equation at the time, eh? That's how you learned logical problem solving. Had you just taken a course on da theory of logical problem solving instead of taking a course on Algebra, my bet is that you never would have learned either skill. Personally, I think the whole straw man of "management theory" is just tripe, eh? Almost all scout troops proceed in some version of what twocubdad or Eagledad or OGE describe. It's a mix of things. We teach scoutcraft skills, because learnin' scoutcraft skills is what gives them the tools they need as well as learnin' how to learn and think and become confident in their own abilities. We teach leadership and management and teamwork because those are skills that boys need to succeed in a patrol as well - and learnin' those things helps 'em develop morals and character and judgment. Each thing in its place, in proper measure. We start with da scoutcraft skills primarily (T-2-1) and then incorporate more management and leadership skills as the boys need those. Beavah

Yeah SoS, not quite sure what you're askin'. If you're just looking for a group of 5 scouts to compete in da regional/national games, we've got no easy way of doin' that. Scouting, by and large, is a distributed, local movement. Each individual troop is owned and operated by a community agency which franchises the program. There's no easy way of tryin' to identify the 5 best scout athletes in the country, though no doubt we have a lot of athletes among our very large membership. If you're sayin' you'd like to work with kids in your area as a Kids Crossfit affiliate and do so with the help of the Scouting program, that's certainly possible, eh? You can charter a Venturing Crew (coed, high school to early college aged youth) that wants to specialize in that, or you can charter a Team (boys only, high school aged) to do the same thing. You can also set up a Learning for Life Explorer Post (coed, high school to early college with no membership restrictions based on religion/sexual preference). Whichever way yeh choose, you get the Boy Scouts of America's or Learning for Life's help in terms of tryin' to teach adults how to set up a program and avoid traps and pitfalls, plus insurance coverage and access to our facilities. It might work for yeh. I'll be honest, though, we really don't have any crossfit materials or guidance to give, so if yeh do it you might want to also charter as a CrossFit affiliate for that kind of support. An alternative if you're really interested in more of a national focus is to try to pitch your idea to the program people at our National Office in Irving, Texas. I'll be honest that I don't think they'll be a hugely receptive bunch, but yeh might be able to encourage some sort of partnership. They might promote CrossFit trainin' in an issue of Boys' Life (though from da look of things online CrossFit seems to be a proprietary for-profit entity, which would probably make our featuring or endorsing it not possible. But yeh can always take out advertisements in Boys' Life!). Hope that helps, Beavah

Is it appropriate for them to use Boy Scout shorts or socks outside a full Boy Scout uniform. Socks? Now we're worried about socks??! Golly. Da old silly red and green numbers have been around and shunned for so long that I don't reckon anyone considers socks a part of the uniform anymore. I expect anyone at National Supply would be beside themselves with joy if boys or girls chose to wear official socks with anything. ScoutmasterBradley, yeh just have to decide what your goals are and then look at how far yeh can reasonably go. Is your goal with your camp staff to make clothing a really big deal? Or do yeh really have other goals in terms of quality of service and fun and such, and pushin' too hard on the clothing bit is just goin' to get in the way of those other goals? And then, if yeh really think lookin' sharp, by-the-book uniforming is a really big deal, how far can yeh reasonably go? Do you have the budget to buy all the staff matchin' uniform parts from tip to tail? Do yeh have enough good staff that you can afford to lose 20 - 40% of your staff by makin' this a really big deal? Is that what yeh want when they're really workin' for illegally low wages and long hours out of love for da rest of the program? Yah, our official statement is that da uniform is da uniform, from cap to sole. But we recognize that Scoutin' runs into the real world all the time. And in da real world, units and families differ quite a bit on their willingness and ability to commit a lot of resources and energy to clothing. Trust me when I say National Supply knows that they're goin' to sell a lot more shirts than pants, and plans accordingly! Most wise scouters don't make a fight or a character issue out of it, eh? They just nudge a bit to try to make it a little bit better. And that's "better" in terms of more meaningful to the kids, eh? That's what we want in a uniform to do our job - more meaningful to the kids. Not necessarily more regimented for regimental adults. I'm glad you're workin' on this. It's good to have camp staff in uniform. Sets the right example and helps with "meaningful" for all da rest of the units if those cool staffers wear it well. But be careful not to get too full of it, eh? Yeh can do more harm than good that way. Cool lookin' and practical. Identifiable, but with enough customization that it truly becomes "their" uniform, eh? Yah, and given a choice between a Venturing Crew in Hawaiian shirts and bermuda shorts and a crew in Venturing Green and black jeans, be happy with da latter, eh? Those kids are choosin' to be publicly associated with the BSA in their clothin'. That's high praise from a teen! Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, if anything da current financial crisis should teach us it's that "management style" doesn't even work in da big boys world. A bunch of management bankers who don't understand what their derivatives operation is doin' aren't an asset any more than a management-style FEMA director is worth a plug nickel when it comes to leadin' an emergency management team in a New Orleans hurricane. We teach skills, and then we recognize and coach leaders. Yeh can't write a novel by memorizin' a standard form for successful novels. Yeh have to learn how to read first. Beavah

Yah, in da parent thread Buffalo Skipper mentions some patrol competitions and asks for additional ideas. That sounds like great material for a new thread, eh? Here's his parameters: Anyone who can offer any new ideas is welcome to do so. This is becoming a popular challenge for the patrols, and I would like to foster it. My real intent is to make it scout skill related, measurable, and easily repeatable (under the same conditions). Here were his first three, which were all done as timed competitions: Scout Knot Challenge. A relay with the patrol members tying the following knots: reef (square) knot, bowline, sheet bend, clove hitch, two-half hitches, and taut-line hitch. Fire Building. Standard build a fire, light it and burn through the twine. We have standard pegs we use (14" height of the twine). As the scouts improve and master these skills, I intend to introduce a new variant, "fire starting" with either flint and steel (not magnesium) or bow (friction). Tent Pitching. This is simply a patrol timed event for pitching (including stakes) a troop issued tent. It is the standard tent that all scouts use, so it is one in which they are familiar. is to make it scout skill related, measurable, and easily repeatable (under the same conditions). Nuthin' spurs patrol spirit quite like competitions which are fun and fair. What other things can we suggest?

Yah, Gern, killin' birds with stones is contrary to LNT, eh? And pokin' hornets nests with sticks is just stupid. What would yeh want to be goin' and doin' that for? Even a tenderfoot scout knows not to do that. Beavah