Beavah

Yah, so what do yeh all think of the notion of requirin' NRA Level 1 Coaching training for a rangemaster in a youth program? I'm not as familiar with the NRA coachin' program as I am with da parallel programs in shotgun sports, but I expect it's also excellent. Anyone done their Level 1 or Level 2 NRA Shooting Sports Coaching certs who can comment? Seems like at least "strongly encouraging" that kind of trainin' would be a good thing. Beavah

Yah, kahits, since you've done EBORs I think the best way to think of a Life BOR is as the semi-final game, eh? Ask da same sort of things you do for Eagle, but less of 'em. Get the lad thinkin' about that "bigger picture" that we do at Eagle BORs, but just a bit. Be OK with answers that aren't thought through all the way and such. Plus some concrete questions about MB's and such just to put him at ease! Of course, if the boys are just askin' yeh what it's like, you can just say "well, why don't you finish the rest of the requirements for Life and then yeh can find out!!" Beavah

Yah, I'm sorta wonderin' whether there's an additional difference between the military folks and the youth folks besides da term "firearm" or "weapon." Seems like a lot of da "shouters" are ex-military folks. My guess is because what each group is tryin' to accomplish is different, eh? In field combat, yeh have to be able to perform under pressure, while there's lots of noise and confusion. So if yeh want to train like yeh fight, you want to train men to do the right thing and think despite folks yellin' at 'em and all kinds of other distractions goin' on. Yah, sure, and there's an element of breakin' down individual egos to push 'em to be a team and do it the Army way. I just don't think it crosses over to workin' with kids that well. We're not about breakin' kids down, we're about buildin' 'em up. More important, when yeh yell at a kid and make him jump or react on a range, I just don't see it as enhancin' safety. I think it increases the change of a lad doin' somethin' unpredictable. Seen it happen a lot. Shout at a kid holdin' a firearm and like as not he'll spin around and look at you with the barrel pointed god-knows-where. And if a weapon gets pointed at Bobby instead of down range, a bellowed shout at a kid might just as easily provoke an accidental discharge, eh? Yah, sure, there are times.... but I reckon with some reasoned thought we'd all recognize those times when a shout is called for are pretty rare compared with how often we see the "technique" used. Which is why trained NRA coaches and other shootin' sports instructors don't choose to use that style. Maybe that's a solution, eh? Make 'em take either the BSA SSD trainin' or the NRA Level 1 trainin' for coaching. Beavah

Yah, over da years it's always amazed me that we can't manage to hire a continuity editor or two. For that matter, even a decent regular editor would be nice. I think da attitude about the Insignia Guide is that it's a pet project of just da volunteers who care about such things. Folks that sometimes the paid pros roll their eyes at (along with da rest of us ). If yeh put all the self-annointed and wannabe uniform experts on that committee it keeps 'em out of everybody else's hair. And yeh end up with a muddled and confused document because there was more ego than edit at times. That's OK, the 90% of scouts and scouters continue about their business, and it gives all the uniform crowd somethin' to debate until they form the next committee. Beavah

Yah, I'm with Cubmaster Mike. There's no call for it. Every year at nearby Oshkosh, WI, there's the world's biggest aviation gatherin'. Tens of thousands of aircraft of all types come in from all over da nation and world. All of the "normal" FAA regulations are out the window, and they bring in some of the best air traffic controlers from around the country to staff the event, which has more traffic for the week than all the NYC airports combined. The best and safest controllers are the ones who can give calm directions with just enough explanation so the pilots understand the picture and help with their own safety. Every now and then yeh get a "shouter" and they're just dangerous, eh? They rattle all the pilots and cause overreactions and tunnel vision. When you're reactin' to a shouter, it's hard to pay attention to anything else. Same on a range, eh? A shouter draws attention to themselves and to one aspect of safety - whatever's bein' shouted about. What yeh really want is everyone on the range being alert and comfortable, not tunnel-visioned and rattled. And as an added bonus, that level of competent professionalism also coincides with courtesy. Beavah

Is a poor leader better than no leader? Simple answer? Yah, of course! If there are boys in the program, they're their for a reason, eh? One man's poor scoutmaster can easily be one lad's revered hero. And there's somethin' to be said for those adults who are that loyal to their unit. Generally speakin', I think of these folks as "keepin' the lights on." They're keepin' the thing alive and doin' what they can for kids until the next great leader comes along. Darn hard for one of those young parents or young 20-somethings who will be great leaders to start up a unit from scratch, eh? But if there's a functioning shell they can step in and take the reins. Problem is it's takin' longer these days, and we aren't really attractin' those young adults "of the right sort" as much as we used to. If we limited membership only to well-run, top-notch units we'd have ceased to exist a long time ago. Best not to dwell on our many failings. Better to be grateful for all da units we have, and identify the good things each one is doin' and build from there. BTW, I enjoyed readin' gwd-scouter's report of their excellent recruitin' year. I reckon her unit is a good example of what I'm talkin' about, eh? In the 8 years before she took over, they had 5 different SM's, weren't boy-led, were very small. After 5 tries, they got gwd, now they're boy led, increasin' in size, and lookin' fine. Be thankful for those who kept da lights on. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Lest we go too far off into politics, anyone been hearin' stories of scouts involved in the effort? Anyone from troops that deployed to assist? Beavah

Yah, it's important to remember that government is just us, eh? There were a lot of National Guardsmen includin' many deployed from neighboring states, and an early federal disaster declaration which opened the doors to all kinds of funding which allowed da purchase of sand and sandbags and fuel and supplies and staging relief, and will help out a lot in the aftermath. And the largest of the sandbaggin' centers was in the publicly funded stadium of da local government-run university. Keep 'em all in your prayers, this has been a touch-and-go fight with da Red River of the North. And what's hardest to remember is that it ain't the battle to stop da flood that's the worst, eh? It's the long cleanup with the loss of houses and health issues and loss of da spring wheat crop and whatnot afterward. Sign me proud that my tax dollars are goin' to help my neighbors in a time of need, eh? Better than everything else they've been goin' for lately. B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, jambo really isn't likely to be an option for your son in any event, and I think you've suffered some communication/understanding failure there. National jamboree arrangements and requirements are complimicated, so odds are either you or da Scoutmaster or both of you are gettin' confused. To go back to your question(s): No, it is not uncommon for a troop to invite Webelos 2 boys to participate in troop fundraisers, especially for summer camp. Generally, Boy Scouting believes in teachin' Thriftiness, including the notion that "boys pay their own way" (or at least work toward that goal). So unlike those "other organizations" you mention, it's less likely that a troop is going to "carry" new members for a bit. We want boys to learn the value of work right from da start. Personally, I think fundraisin' should be an invitation for potential members like webelos IIs. Just comes across funny when folks make things all "required" before a boy even joins. At the same time, yeh just don't know what the SM is dealin' with or tryin' to teach yet, eh? Now forgive me, but let me point out an important thing yeh should be aware of. New folks to any organization always see the imperfections first, eh? And sometimes they're wrong about those, because they haven't seen the why yet. Troops are different than packs, and have to do some things very differently. That's goin' to feel funny / inefficient /etc. to someone coming out of a pack. A good rule for your first year in a troop is to sit on your hands, or offer da service of your hands without da benefit of your mouth. Don't push an agenda or push for any changes to things you think are bad/wrong/could be better/etc. durin' the first year. But you can keep notes if yeh like . Yeh shouldn't criticize (or worse, offer to take a leadership role because "you can do better") any organization until after you've been there long enough to really know all of the things the organization does well. Only after you've figured out all of da great things about the troop can you offer some ideas to brush up the bad stuff without risking accidentally harming something that's really beneficial. And without hurtin' the feelings of those good folks already volunteering who do those things well. So be active, but be quietly active your first year. Part of "collecting information" is goin' to be really getting to know and respect all of the people who make your new troop go. Beavah

Yah, kari, welcome to da forums! I think if yeh don't want to participate in a fundraiser, you just say no, eh? That's why you're the parent. There's nothin' wrong with the SM inviting your son to participate, nothin' wrong with you declining, and nothin' wrong with the SM saying that if you don't participate your son can't expect to benefit from the work of others. Just a fine and dandy understandin' all around! All that having been said, I think a fair number of troops invite Webelos II's to participate in winter & spring fundraisers, especially if there's a "feeder" pack type of relationship. That's to help those boys raise money for summer camp their first summer, which is somethin' that really makes a big difference for a new Boy Scout. Boys who go to camp their first summer really "bond" with the troop and get into Boy Scouting, eh? They're more likely to stay in the program, and have a leg up on advancement. But camp ain't cheap for a lot of families, so it's a really great idea to invite Webelos II's to start fundraisin' for camp in the winter with the troop. Your SM is lookin' out for the lads and deserves an "attaboy." But if your family doesn't need the financial help and just wants to shell out da bucks for camp, that's OK. As for jambo, your son probably won't be eligible this go-round. Still, it's a nice thing for him to do to help raise money for the boys who are goin'. Sometimes in our Scoutin' family, we do stuff for others without expectin' anything for ourselves. But yeh never know. Could be when he's 15 or 16 and achin' to go to Philmont, some young Webelos II will sell enough spring mulch to put him over the top! Beavah

but the council claims that for tax reasons, they cannot and will not distribute donations downward to units (because the council does not own the units) Yah, maybe it's just a peeve of mine, but I just really dislike it when people make up some pseudo-legal balderdash in order to justify an action that they're takin' because that's just what they want to do. That's what most of da rest of us call lying. Of course da council can accept donations earmarked for units that they don't own, eh? What do they think the United Way (or any community foundation, or...) does with donations earmarked for da council? And if they're "holding donations for themselves" that a donor designated for a specific unit, they are violatin' both the law and the cardinal ethical principle of NFP charitable entities. And probably committin' fraud to boot. But, as we see, the behaviors of local councils do not always live up to da Scout Oath & Law. Generally, it's better to do what John-in-KC suggests and accept the donation on behalf of the CO. Or if they're buyin' you somethin', have them buy it and give you the property rather than the money. Beavah

Yah, interestin'. Wonder if we're losin' our supplier for the green shirts? Of course, maybe now Venturing will switch to Explorer Red loops. B

They prove to be correct, and several of our Scouts refuse to accept the blue cards for MB's they know they have not earned. Yah, good for your boys! That's the sort of thing that really shows character, and demonstrates that your program is really doin' what it should to meet our goals. B

Americans will never accept $3/day wages to compete with Asian factories. Yah, sure we will, figuratively speakin'. As soon as we finish up devaluing the dollar B

All one has to do is go to Church, listen to the Church, and confess when one doesn't do that so good. Yah, this is gettin' kind of funny, eh? Dat's another swing and a miss, TheScout. If yeh really do number two of your list, then you'd recognize that your own church's views of salvation disagree with you. Guess dat's why there's some merit to studyin' and learnin', eh? Keeps yeh from makin' mistakes about important stuff. Of course yeh all did manage to learn a thing or two after 1517 . Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, sorry TheScout. Yeh fail your homework and the theology of your own faith yet again. You Catholic types really have a very sophisticated theology of Church, and you apparently understand not a whit of it. Shame. Yeh really should look into workin' on the Pius XII medal. Beavah

Yah, I reckon first yeh need to identify alternative manufacturers, eh? I'd love to see your list of American manufacturers who are capable of and interested in takin' that business. Then yeh need to tell us how much the price is goin' to go up for all the lads and families who are doin' scouting. Your petition ain't worth anything unless an alternative exists, and it ain't worth much unless we're not hurtin' the kids we're trying to serve. B

Yah, yeh really should do your homework rather than tryin' to fake it, eh? One cannot charge with the sin of separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them as brothers. All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as a means of salvation. I reckon it's truly a sadness that your church has failed to teach you the rudiments of its own catechism. Of course, maybe yeh did as well at your Sunday School homework as you do here, eh? Of course, yeh might reject such elements of your church's catechism along with statements of Vatican II documents like Unitatis redintegratio. But in the eyes of your church, rejectin' the authoritative teaching of an ecumenical council, the fullest expression of the magisterium, would probably be considered heresy. Anathema sit. You are yourself the heretic yeh claim yeh want to stomp out. Such is always da nature of human sinfulness, it rebounds upon the self. In Scoutin', I really believe we should help each scout to learn and appreciate his own tradition and faith, earn the religious awards for his own denomination and all that. You really should consider it, eh? The Pius XII medal yeh might find particularly apropos and age-appropriate. Beavah

Yah, I couldn't figure out why this thread was still goin' on, so I decided to look in on it. Here it is we managed to delete da vile remarks of some juvenile only to get 7 pages of baitin', shallow dialog from another juvenile. What's really telling, though, is how many forum members must be really good scouters in real life, because they fully engage with teenagers who are tryin' on different "extreme" modes of thought while lookin' to figure out what they really believe in. Shows how much yeh all care about kids, and how patient you must be in real life. Just funny how in forum-land it resembles feeding a troll. Now, TheScout, for your homework, you are to read your own Catholic Catechism to learn that your church does not share your view about "stomping out" heresy. Rather, it teaches a far more Christian and compassionate approach. Begin with Cat. 2089, which describes heresy as a personal sin, not a communal one. Then read through 817ff. Far from "stompin' out", your faith instructs you as a non-heretic to engage in personal renewal, conversion of heart, prayer, fraternal understanding, ecumenical formation, dialog, and collaboration with us heretics. No doubt because disunity and heretical notions arise principally from da personal failings and sinfulness of the faithful. Just as your personal approach here drives others away, rather than callin' them to the shared life of Christ. I reckon addressin' heresy begins in our own hearts, eh? Leastways, that's what your "infallible" church is sayin'. Beavah

In da parent thread, several posters shared advice or troop protocols about safety, either for specific activities or more general practices. Seems like a fine thing for us to be doin'. So this thread is to allow that sharin'. One of da aspects of safety is to challenge complacency or assumptions, eh? It would be, I reckon, a service to each other if we also politely questioned, nudged, and challenged da advice and protocols that get shared. That's how we all improve. So please share your insights and safety practices in support of and beyond G2SS, either for a specific area like "canoeing" or more generally - but only if you're ready to accept feedback without gettin' hot. Beavah

Yah, hikin' only 5 miles on Saturday would be pretty borin', eh? Interestin' discussion. I have to agree with Tahawk and others about Wilderness Survival MB. And about MB pamphlets in general. I reckon one pamphlet in five is really worth very much, and we do an absolutely lousy job of keepin' the faster-moving fields like computers, cinematography, etc. up to date. These days given the sorry state of the U.S. Patent and Trademark office, we could have thousands of scouts earnin' the old Invention MB. My biggest issue with the program is what some others have mentioned in terms of MB counselor / camp quality. One of these days I'm goin' to compile a video from a mess of ECOH where Eagles talk about the "best" badges as being the ones where the counselor was really hard and they had to work for the badge, and the "easy" and summer camp badges being "worthless." Maybe we can make it part of required MB counselor trainin', and encourage units to show it for new parent orientations. Beavah

Yah, or yeh can look at the Troop Committee Handbook, eh? B

Yah, I think it's great that some of your boys are learnin' ASL. That can be really fun for boys if you encourage it... sort of like a secret patrol or troop signaling system. Boys love secret codes that only they are good at, eh! You can help it out by getting someone who's good at teachin' kids to perhaps do a class on the side. Have mom come and talk to the scouters and the patrol leaders and give tips & tricks that she uses. That will help everyone feel at ease, and catch things that you might not have thought of. Since the lad apparently has a lot of friends who recruited him and are workin' ASL, make them your partners. Be sure to tell them that part of their job is to relay verbal communication when the boy might not be looking. And to remind the adults and patrol leaders to do things like get in front so that he can see (because you will forget, and their reminders are really helpful). Have some strategy in place for dealin' with behavior issues. One of the interestin' things about deaf boys is that they can shut you out pretty completely by closing their eyes. Hearing boys might stick their fingers in their ears and go "La la la la la!", but it just ain't anywhere near as effective. Check with the parents on how they deal with the occasional behavior issue and what to expect. Last thing, be conscious about not addressin' all your troop communications to mom. That's an easy trap to fall in, so plan up front how you're goin' to go out of your way to include dad in communications. Adults might have a harder time adapting than the kids, so plan how you're goin' to make dad feel welcome on campouts with da other dads, etc. I think you've got all the ingredients in place, eh? You'll find boys who understand a disability and how to help will be just great, and pretty soon what Eagledad says will be true. Nobody will really notice anymore. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, amay, welcome to da forums, eh? Generally speakin', I think havin' younger siblings along on Boy Scout outings is a poor practice for all the reasons mentioned. Boy Scout outings are not (and should not be) age-appropriate activities for cub aged youth. In order to keep things safe for those younger tikes, yeh either have to "dumb down" the outing for the boys to somethin' that's appropriate for cubs, or you have to insist that dad baby-sit the little guy (which means that dad really can't be effective as a Boy Scout leader / helper). Anything else, includin' making older boys baby sit little guys in the outdoors without training really ain't responsible in terms of safety. Nor is it fair to the boys, eh? I particularly think it's a bit selfish and irresponsible for a man to "slip his third grader into an outing" in the way you describe. That having been said, there's times when an occasional "family campout" with carefully selected activities and supervision by parents can be an OK thing, maybe once a year or so. And sometimes yeh gotta do what yeh gotta do in order to get enough adult leaders or drivers. But it should be made clear that the parents are responsible for supervisin' the little ones 100% of the time, and for that reason the parents supervisin' the little ones should never be leaders who are needed to supervise the boy scouts. As for non-scout friends, sure, they're welcome if they're of boy scouting age and are being recruited... except yeh need to consider whether the activity and your leadership can handle it, eh? For example, a water activity where yeh need to have done a swim check and have medical information and have done prior instruction.... not a good idea to bring a non-scout drop in. Non-scouts create an extra supervision burden for you, because they don't know things about behavior and skills that the scouts do. So yeh have to ask yourself two questions: Do you have enough adults to provide extra supervision for these guests? and Is this activity going to be OK for a guest with zero experience whose behavior might be a problem? If yeh can't answer "yes" to both questions, then havin' the guest along is irresponsible. Many bigger or established troops will designate some activities and events as "guests welcome", but not all activities. Final consideration is that they should be guests who are thinkin' about joining, not boys cherry-picking special outings without makin' a commitment. Hope that helps a bit. Beavah

Yah, just musin' here... I reckon if we're honest, all of us male adults can recount tales of playin' with pyrotechnics of various kinds in our youth. I can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was older buddies or somesuch who first explained to me the dangers of flame fronts running backward into containers. I worry all the time that the more things we ban from organized programs the more kids get hurt by those things on their own. I wonder if some experience with pyrotechnics, maybe fireworks in states where they're legal, for example, might help kids scratch that itch and learn safety at da same time. Think of Mythbusters or that copycat show that's always blowin' things up. I bet at least some lads in every troop watch 'em. There's excitement in that, but they also show some of the safety precautions pros put in place. I dunno. Just seems like boys and fire is somethin' we're never goin' to be able to completely ban. So we better educate. Beavah