Beavah

There are clear signs this unit has Advancement Method problems when the SM does not perform one of his basic duties: Mentoring the Life Scout who brings an ELSP forward. It's not for an ASM to sign, it's not for a Committee member to sign. Nah, John-in-KC, this is a pretty common thing across the country, eh? Many, many troops use Eagle project advisors in a SM capacity for the project process. Some districts yeh have to just because you need a dedicated adult to keep up with the paperwork . Da BSA is even startin' to recognize the role, with the addition of the Eagle Mentor pin to the presentation kit. Bigger troops in particular are likely to use ASMs in this role. Problem is if the project advisor and SM are sendin' different signals because they're not keepin' each other in the loop. IMO, though, the project is a separate requirement from Scout Spirit and da other Eagle Requirements. Yeh shouldn't hold one up because the another isn't complete. Beavah Physics tells us that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back. And so, here we are, victims of mathematics! - Ambassador Londo Mollari Note for mdsummer45: Yah, what John said, eh? We're not talkin' about your case anymore, we're talking about a bunch of general issues. When you need us again or have news, just jump in and we'll re-focus!(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Why can no one just follow the program? Which program? Walk around your district and council, you'll see dozens of programs. Sit in on a national program committee meeting, you'll hear dozens of different ideas and notions about what "the program" really is or how it works. All unit programs work under two sets of rules, eh? The BSA program materials, and the materials / vision / goals of the chartered organization. There is not, and never has been, one program. In actual fact, a troop can do exactly what GernBlansten suggested in da original post, simply by putting an age restriction on Positions of Responsibility. If yeh read your BSA program materials, you find that age and rank restrictions for PORs are just fine, even suggested. So da bigger question is whether making a choice like that meets the needs and vision for a particular troop. And that's what makes these discussions so fun! I'm with Lisabob, I think in most cases this kind of artificial restriction ain't necessary. Better to just be more rigorous in how yeh view the other requirements. You'll get both older Eagles and better prepared Eagles that way. It's just as OneHour suggests, doin' that means abandoning the rush-to-First-Class notion (which came from da marketing/membership people, not the program people). Beavah

It's highly illogical to approve an Eagle project if the unit is then going to deny both a Scoutmaster's Conference and a Board of Review for the Eagle Rank based on the grounds laid out by this Scoutmaster. Nah, Calico, I disagree. There's no basis for not approvin' an Eagle project based on Scout Spirit issues, or any other Eagle requirement. While there are a few troops that don't approve projects until a lad has finished all his merit badges, or completed his POR, that's not really the way it should be done. Same with not approvin' a project because of Scout Spirit. In part, because that's a harder issue to appeal, so it'd be deprivin' the boy of a real chance for the rank. I reckon most troops would approve da project the same way this one did. In this case, it sounds like the project was approved a year or more before the lad's 18th birthday. That gives the lad a year to work on da Scout Spirit issues, and the summer to work on the project. Seems pretty reasonable. It'd be a lot harder to delay the project into his senior year instead of summer. Just wouldn't seem fair to the lad. That to my mind would show that the SM/troop had some malice and were really tryin' to sabotage the lad, where what they did shows they were proceedin' pretty normally. I don't know what to make of the Eagle Coach signin' for the district, but that seems like SOP in this case. Could be he's on the district advancement committee and is so empowered. Could be he sends off a copy to the chair who approves over the phone and he signs for him. I don't think it'll be an issue for da EBOR. Beavah

Yah, ASM915, I'm just doin' my thing of tampin' down the one-sided emotional stuff, eh? Like I said, where this particular case falls out would depend on facts not in evidence. I reckon there's failures on both sides. I think if there's really a concern about an adult's behavior or use of language, yeh don't bring that up when the issue on the table is your own behavior. Momma Beavah taught me that . Arguin' that other people run stop signs isn't material to you running a red light, eh? Nor is da arresting officer calling you an idiot for runnin' the red light, though he should perhaps be more polite. Lets face it, if there were real issues with this ASM's behavior in general, the lad has had seven years to bring 'em up. I reckon he was bein' a kid and tryin' to throw somethin' back in da face of the adults only because he was on the hot seat. And that message was heard! Of course, if there were real issues with the lad's behavior, the adults have had a few years to bring 'em up too, eh? We don't know that they didn't, of course, only that the boy didn't learn what he perhaps should have. Like I said, adults who weren't argumentative youths themselves tend to get pretty darn annoyed with argumentative youths. They don't always have clean hands. So we're back to the beginnin' of havin' to trust the locals to sort it out. Yah, and that probably means some good scouters are slightly disappointed when us bureaucrats who don't really deal with kids anymore take the easy route to a settlement and just grant the badge. Beavah

Maybe this troops leadership has had a history of running ripshod over the boys without beig questioned. Mabe they're not use to a scout holding his ground, and questioning how they have been handling and running things in the past. If that's the case, it doesn't matter how diplomatic the scout is, they'll round up the wagons to hold onto what they have, and use any means to discredit the questioner. Yah, yah, all Centauri are evil beasts hell-bent on oppressing the Narn masses, eh? Just like all Narn are uncivilized terrorists bent on eating Centauri children. That's my point, eh? If yeh buy into da emotion of one side or the other yeh have to imagine that the motivation of the other side is somehow evil. "Use any means to discredit" "Run roughshod over boys" etc. - that sort of thing just ain't reality when you're talking about volunteers in a kids' program. Yeh have to imagine this SM as somebody we should boot from the program. Yet he's got the support of his fellow troop scouters, the support of da majority of troop parents, and is well enough respected at the district to hold several positions. Just doesn't fit. Now, I agree with yeh when yeh say that some adults aren't great at dealing with bright lads who hold their ground (aka stubborn lads who talk back to adults). They taught their own kids differently, eh? One person's lad standing firm is another's wise-a** arguin' balls and strikes with the ump. Just depends a bit on your family's values and culture. Some families value quiet "obedience" and respect for adults more than others, eh? Especially these days it seems. Of course, if I had given da SM lip about the ASM usin' a four-letter word when I was in trouble for somethin' else, Momma Beavah would have hauled me out by my ear, washed my mouth out with soap, and read me the riot act about how she would have used a lot more on me than a four-letter word if I had talked back to her like I did to that ASM. She was never too impressed with my youthful legal argumentation. We kids all learned that it we were responsible for our behavior, and da behaviors of other kids or adults wasn't an excuse. So me, I kinda like dealin' with these rascals who try to make arguments. But there are a lot of adults who don't think too highly of da lip, eh? Even some who react in ways that aren't helpful. I reckon that's what's up here. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Registered adult leaders in the troop should all be allowed to come along. Yah, that's true for some things, but certainly not all. Registered leaders who can't swim can't come on some boating outings, as a gross example. We've told some XL adults that we can't accommodate 'em at climbing activities. I think Philmont these days is limiting the number of adults per crew to a max of three or four. Otherwise, what happens on some high adventure trips is there are more adults than youth, and they pretty much "take over" the trip makin' the experience weaker for the youth. Sometimes parents are gawd-awful drivers, and yeh need to invite them not to drive. All kinds of reasons to make additional restrictions, eh? I like to see women out who are good outdoorswomen, eh? I think they're a great example for the lads. Besides, we need a pipeline for Venturing leaders! But there's ways to do that well and with sensitivity when you're breakin' into da boys club. We can talk about being willing to lose the guys, but the reality of most troops is that if those guys walk, the troop folds. Or at least you lose a lot of youth. How many kids are yeh willing to sacrifice? Just depends on your and your CO's view of da mission, I suppose. Still best to be thoughtful. Beavah

as sometimes happens, everyone has the same answer which is great. Dang! Where's Kudu to jump in and say, no, no, all this talk of multi-tasking is just newfangled management woodbadge BS. It should be like da good old days where yeh couldn't work on First Class until you completed Second Class, etc. Sorry.

What an interesting twist that is Beavah. I bet that makes for some meaningful adult association. I will get send him/her an email and get all my work done. Seems like a silly comparison to the discussion here. Yah, don't your kids Skype? Online videoconference chatting has been around for a while now. If you're really in a rural area, I bet there's a good shot da high school or county schools authority has some advanced classes that are offered by video / distance learning. It wouldn't necessarily be my first choice, but it could be really interestin'. First choice, though, is what Lisabob said, eh? Just go find a counselor. Beavah

Yah, perhaps yeh can just dispense with the notion of taking a buddy to the bathroom? I know we're all in favor of the buddy system, but I've always found that particular interpretation to be a bit silly (and even a bit creepy) for boy scout aged youth. Are yeh regularly camping in areas where it's a long and confusing hike to da latrine, with cliffs about? Meet with mom and talk about issues. Aside from the wetting issue which is one to manage thoughtfully, da rest just seems like ordinary homesickness rather than a behavioral issue that demands a parent be present. You're the folks who count, though. If you're not comfortable managing the lad, then yeh should ask a parent to come out. Beavah

This isn't little league where everyone wins. Does everyone win now in Little League?? No more Little League dads yellin' at umpires? Did I miss the memo? B

Yah, Daddy_O, scouts work on everything simultaneously. Typically, when a lad earns Tenderfoot, he already has half of the requirements done for Second Class and maybe a quarter of da requirements for First Class. Plus a merit badge or two toward Star! It's not like school, eh, where yeh have to do everything in order according to the curriculum. It's more like play and fun, where yeh go out canoeing and playin' in the lake so yeh naturally work on water rescues (Second Class and First Class), Safety Afloat (First Class), Canoeing MB, first aid for sunburn (Tenderfoot), etc. all in the course of the event. Beavah

Well, as answers go, short, to the point, utterly useless, and totally consistent with what I've come to expect from a Vorlon. Yah, it would be fun if one of the BSA's local entities renamed itself "The Grey Council", eh? Or maybe that's da council ASM 411 is from? B

We disallow parent committee members from sitting on BORs for their son, eh? Even though a parent is trustworthy, yada yada. Heck, on a BOR there are at least a couple non-parents to balance it out, but it still isn't allowed. Why? Because parents can be too lenient, too strict, or the interactions between parent-child are just so different (and so much stronger/overpowering) than between committee member and boy. Same argument applies to parents as MBCs to my mind. We never stop being parents, which means it's hard to be MBC's. And Lisabob's right, eh? Parent MBC's or parent SM's signing things off for their own kid are a recipe for conflict within a unit, kids perceiving favoritism, etc. Oddly enough there are only two or three reading counselors in our council (depending on how current the list is) and they all live 45 miles away. Who should be responsible for recruiting more counselors? Yah, that's the job of the DAC, eh? And it's a hard job. Most new DACs ignore it in favor of educatin' all the other troops about how their old troop did advancement "right", or settin' up some new paperwork for the Eagle project process. That process can always use more paperwork. Reality is that a good troop which discourages parent MBCs should go out of its way to recruit a different MBC if a lad asks to do the badge. That usually isn't too much trouble. If dad is an attorney and junior wants to do Law MB, dad can probably recommend another attorney who can be recruited, eh? Reading and scholarship are pretty easy to recruit for. And in these days of electronic communication, a counselor that lives a ways away isn't that big a hurdle, at least for those badges. Beavah

We have for 15 web pages been appropriately complaining that the Troop is stone walling and being contrary to the principles of Scouting. Now the District Advancement Chairman is moving expeditiously and we're complaining that he is making thing too easy. How does one win? Yah, NeilLup, I reckon we're just seein' two different sides of da coin. The 15 pages complainin' about the troop was in a large part jumpin' on mom's emotional bandwagon. I have the dubious pleasure of mediatin' a lot of disputes, eh? One of the things yeh get used to in that role is immediately subtracting out da hearsay and emotional stuff to understand the underlyin' facts. There's a reason why hearsay is inadmissible, eh? It's notoriously unreliable. Then yeh have to imagine the motives of da other side. In this case, when yeh dismiss all da hearsay and emotion, and discount silly notions about the motivation of others (like all the adults in this troop are out to get this boy after spendin' their time with him for seven years), yeh end up with a borderline case that could go either way dependin' on facts not in evidence. So let's imagine it from the troop's point of view. You have a lad who has had a number of behavior issues over the years. Never anything that rises to the level of requiring suspension or expulsion, but a lot of stuff that has gotten under people's skin. He's a bright lad, so maybe he's an instigator who is usually smart enough not to get caught doin' anything serious or to make up plausible excuses. He's got a mouth on him and cops a lot of "attitude" with adults. His parents are AWOL. Dad came on one campout and hasn't been heard from since, mom's not a volunteer either. Kid faded out as a junior and the troop was fine with that, then came back wanting Eagle. When he came back, there was more of the instigator-type stuff, eh? He's the old boy in the tent when other campers are disturbed. When confronted, he blames it on the younger boys and cops a load of "attitude" with the ASM. So much so that the ASM gets on the horn immediately with the SM and says "this is serious, it has to be dealt with." At the meeting with the SM, the kid cops more attitude and goes after the ASM for swearing. Classic teenage behavior, eh? The SM does his duty, and a full six months before the boy's 18th birthday tells him in writing that he can't support his Eagle application because of Scout Spirit/Behavior issues. Boy wants to argue it but the adults really aren't into more argument and lip from this boy. SM again does his duty and lets the lad know his avenues of appeal. The troop committee, consisting of parents of older boys who remember this kid bein' a pain when they were out and remember their boys talking about him get confronted with the SM and multiple ASM's testimony, a raft of old events but also some more recent events which show the boy hasn't really changed. Mom & boy demand an immediate written reply even though the CC is tryin' to deal with his dying mother, then get annoyed when he sends da letter at 11pm. On top if it all, his Facebook contains stuff that would be considered cyberbullying and the troop is serious about that kind of thing. Yeh could imagine that if the SM posted a thread with his side, many of the same folks who are thinking the SM is a putz based on mom's view would be advocating for kicking the kid out on the cyberbullying stuff alone. My guess is that the straight line here is that this lad is a bright but argumentative sort, and that these adults aren't very good at dealin' with that type of kid. He gets under their skin and where they should react they overreact. Troop should probably have dealt with it better by not advancing him to Star or Life, but we all want to give lads the benefit of the doubt, especially when they're younger. We all know that in the end, the lad will be given Eagle by somebody. Maybe that will cost us a troop or at least some other boys. If we take Terry Lawson's old line, it ain't worth da argument and best just to give the boy an Eagle and send him on his way. That's the expedient and natural settlement, eh? At least when we don't think about the other impacts. Whether it's really da right thing to do is left as an exercise for the district volunteers. Beavah

The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. Nah, dat's not what this means, eh? If that were the case we could never limit parent participation on Philmont or other high adventure trips, which we certainly do. We also limit parents based on health conditions, level of training, and all kinds of things. And some CO's certainly do limit female participation on campouts as being inconsistent with their faith/values/mission. BSA is just fine with that, along with limiting female participation when separate quarters aren't available. Crossramwedge, yeh certainly can and should restrict Boy Scouting outings to boy scout youth. Yeh can but probably shouldn't restrict campouts to no-moms-allowed. But you'll want to really finesse things to avoid lots of problems. Between your guys-only adult leaders and a mom's natural tendency to mother, that's just ripe for confusion and conflict. Da question in my mind is whether this mom is an avid outdoorswoman, or whether she's just hovering and wants to be around on her kid's first trip(s). If it's the former, my experience is that she'll slowly break down the old boys' club as they learn to respect her abilities. If it's the latter, yeh might want to coach the guys that she needs to come on a few things to be comfortable with her boy coming out with them, and they should hold their nose and deal with it. Probably she won't be out very often because she'll want to stay with / do other stuff with daughter. Beavah

Yah, I agree with emb021. Badgematic, Stitch Witchery and all that sort of stuff doesn't work very well. However, I've had very good luck with the tan iron-on velcro.

O - M - G!!! Beavah, did you just write, "Daddy-O"???? You don't happen to have a set of bongos or something like that do you? Maybe a goatee and sunglasses? Wow, my mental image is reeling. I'm seeing......Maynard G. Krebs, like for sure, man! Huh? Oh, yah, not to worry, mate. Your cognitives need not get dissonated. No bongos (with or without da -os) here. Definitely no goatee. Yeh need to check out the "Seeking Guidance" thread and it's originating poster. Beavah

But quarterly is just not right. It forces 3-month waits on ranks that have no time requirement.... That's 2-3 months wasted where a Scout can't fulfill the "while a First Class Scout", "while a Star Scout", or "while a a Life Scout" requirements. Yah, nolesrule, I hear yeh. I just reckon it's overstating things to think about three months of scouting fun and activity and leadership as being "wasted." We do have 7 other methods. Some units just aren't as advancement-focused, eh? Boys are in scouts for 7 years, the year and a third of mandated time doesn't need to be a race. Boards of Review conducted quarterly prior to Courts of Honor can work just fine. Limits the rat race to only four months out of da year. And if youth leadership positions are selected on a six-month or longer basis, it really doesn't feel awkward. Kids and families are pretty used to earning awards at the end of a "season." Now, it probably wouldn't work for Daddy_O Like I said, I tend to prefer BORs on demand, but in terms of outcomes and overall program quality, this isn't a big deal. Some troops make it work just fine. Pluses and Minuses. KC, I agree with yeh. I like on demand boards because I can spend more time with a lad and be "fresh." Downside is they do tend to get longer, and yeh tend to get the same cast of characters who have schedules that can accommodate that. You lose some good MC's who can't do the short-term thing and need a better schedule. Da units that do quarterly boards tend to make 'em fun adult nights (perhaps refreshments), and oversee 'em a bit more because that's the focus for the night. They don't run on in terms of time. Just different. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Gosh, but we are an interestin' bunch of adults. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with expectin' a lad to bring his book. There's no requirement that he wear anything but his underwear, but I expect most of us would expect a boy to be clothed at a BOR, too. ScoutNet does not keep track of individual requirements, so it's only after a BOR is passed and recorded that ScoutNet becomes the official record, along with da paper advancement report. Of course we all know that ScoutNet seems to have a random error rate of 10% or so, so a wise and prudent scout and troop will keep backups, like a signed and dated book. There is no requirement that a Troop use Troopmaster or any other record-keeping device to keep track of individual requirements. Some troops do, but personally I think it's a profound waste of people's time just to take a lad's responsibility away. So it's perfectly natural to expect a book. There might not be anything else that's reliable. I think da big rule is "don't be stupid." Don't apply "no adding to the requirements" in ridiculous ways. Don't put off a lad's BOR for want of a book if you spent hundreds of hours recording everything in Troopmaster and yeh have the data right in front of you. Maybe some day we'll get to reprogrammable RFID chips we can embed in the scout's right hand so we can just scan his records. No doubt then someone would say it's not required for the BOR to have a scanner present and it's not required for a boy to present his hand to be scanned. Beavah

Yah, one thing that's very true across most councils is that DE's are woefully undertrained and lacking in experience when it comes to institutional development / soliciting donations. Add to that that it's a high-pressure activity for 'em, and often their job depends on the results. So da stories of this kind of ham-handedness are truly legion, and the lost opportunities even larger. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, SM214, I expect da real answer to your question is the one you came up with: Ask your CC, I'm sure this has come up in the past and they've got a process for it. My guess is that they handle it like TwoCubsDad suggests. They hold the BOR on their schedule and adjust the paperwork. That happens all the time in programs. While I tend to prefer and encourage BOR's "on demand", I don't think less of troops that do 'em on a schedule. That's just different, not better or worse. There's pros and cons each way. Generally speakin', units like SM214's will be a bit less advancement-focused on average (often a good thing), and the BORs will be more fair and uniform. I worry about the delay a bit for da youngest lads (though it's manageable) and I think it teaches the older lads to plan better and not expect adults to be at their beck and call. Just different. Beavah

Yah, my last post doubled with your previous post, mdsummer. It looks a might confusin' now. Proper answer was "yes, it's that simple." If they judge his Eagle to be of lesser quality, doesn't that speak to their character. Of course it does. Both positive and negative. Let the boy come home and consider things and think about it, though. What he plans and what he ultimately decides can be different, eh? And he deserves your love and support either way. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Nah, the SM conference is irrelevant. You're appealing a troop decision not to recommend a lad for Eagle, period. Doesn't matter why they didn't recommend him, that's a matter for the appeal. You do not need, and should not pursue an extension of time. That's an entirely different beast, with different procedures, which must be determined by National. Yeh don't want to go there, it will delay and confuse things. An extension of time is only required if a lad cannot fulfill the requirements by his 18th birthday. In this case, yeh believe he has already fulfilled the requirements. A Board of Review can be conducted 3 months after his 18th birthday with absolutely no need for any special permission, and appeals can continue after that, so you are not in a time crunch. It's very simple. The troop is not recommending your son for the rank of Eagle Scout. Your son is asking that the district review that decision and afford him a Board of Review and, if the district so determines, the rank of Eagle Scout. That's it. Now, since you've got some time, it is worth a pause for your son to think about things. Does he really want to go this route? It might be that his answer, on reflection, is "no." Particularly if he cares a lot about the troop and his relationships in it. Gettin' an Eagle Award presented by the council instead of by his troop can be a letdown. As has been discussed in other threads, folks at da more remote levels take a more bureaucratic view of these things and tend to err well to the side of avoiding conflict and favorin' the boy. That might be viewed as a "fake" or "low standards" Eagle by folks your son really cares about. Or not. He might want to pursue it to demonstrate his character to these folks. Either way, it's worth considerin' more than the wording of letters. The award is just a patch. Relationships and what he's learned are what he really takes away from Scouting. Beavah

Okay so isn't he also appealing the decision of the SM and CC decision not the sign the Eagle application (under Unit Approval) and their decision not to recommend him for an Eagle BOR? Not just the SM refusal to conduct a SM conference? Your son is appealing the decision of his SM and the troop committee not to recommend him for an Eagle BOR by refusing to sign his application. That's it. Don't worry about any of the other stuff, SM conference, etc. The other stuff is just part of the "not recommending for an Eagle BOR by refusing to sign his application." B

Yah, Ok, deep breath time again. I know it's human nature to try to turn people we disagree with into slimeballs. It makes us feel better and all, and makes our actions with respect to them feel OK, eh? Especially if our actions and advice really aren't da best examples of the Oath and Law. Mdsummer, your younger son who loves the program should stay in it and continue to be a regular scout. He is his own person. You should not compromise his experience by trying to steer him away, take him away, document like mad, get on the committee and make trouble, yada yada. Leastways, not while you're feeling hurt and angry over son #1. As for the appeal, there's no need for panic or lots of time pressure here, eh? The next step is an Eagle BOR at the district level. Eagle BORs can be conducted after a lad turns 18. Far better to be thoughtful, courteous, and prepared than it is to rush off calling people on a Sunday before your son even gets home. Call the DD on Monday to keep him informed, let him know that your son will be calling the DAC on Tuesday or Wednesday when he's back from the trip to figure out next steps. Practically speaking, your son should put together a folder with his Eagle project stuff, signed project workbook, Eagle Application form, personal statements, etc. He should double-check on reference letters to make sure they are getting to the DAC. He should read the letter from the troop committee, get angry, yell, set it aside for a couple days, then come back and write his appeal letter. He should throw out his first draft where he tries to rebut each point of the committee's letter. Then he should write a draft which really just talks about how he has met all of the requirements for the Eagle Scout rank, and while acknowledging some past errors talks about who he is now. He should schedule the appeal BOR a couple weeks out so that he can get in that mindset of being friendly and polite and such, not just re-living his meeting with the troop committee. And then he should go for it! Beavah