Beavah

Yah, sandspur, welcome to da forums, eh? Before this goes off the rails in debates about BSA language, let me try to focus this on you and your unit. Who is your Chartered Organization? What are their values and their goals for having a scouting program? If you are chartered to a church, and you went and sat down with the pastor (IH), could you explain and justify your approach? Would that person support what you're tryin' to do for kids, and how you are tryin' to do it? As a unit volunteer, you work for the chartered organization, NOT for the BSA. So if yeh feel some level of performance in a POR is important, and that's part of your institution's goals and values, you need to stick to that as best you can. I think sometimes units go a bit overboard in tryin' to "remove subjectivity." Raisin' children, teaching children, is about relationships and values, and those are subjective things that can't be reduced to numbers. I'd encourage your unit to embrace values and high standards, and not get too caught up in an illusion of objectivity. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

What lessons do we wish to teach our youth? Yah, I reckon da lessons we want to teach our youth are about the truth, eh? And the truth is that they can wear their uniform to school if they want to or when they mow their lawn or are bicycling around their neighborhood. It's their clothing. They paid for it. Levi Strauss can't tell us all that we're not allowed to wear Levis blue jeans while attending a conservative political rally. Yeh see, if we teach kids about citizenship, we begin by teachin' 'em about freedom. Da BSA's trademark protection is a very limited grant of exclusivity that depends on context. And if yeh know how to read the legalese of the Unit Money Earning Application then yeh recognize that while it overreaches, it really is describin' only those circumstances where the BSA has a cognizable claim to that limited protection. So as long as you are conducting a unit activity, including a fundraiser used for Scouting, and clearly state that the proceeds go to Troop 1234 chartered to St. Sebastian's Home for Wayward Rascals, you're doin' just fine. Assumin' of course yeh aren't running a casino or gettin' Venturer young ladies to dance a striptese or somesuch. Beavah

but lets not pretend that what conservatives do now is any different than what the liberals did during the Bush years in regards to carping and jumping on the flimsiest excuse for ridicule. Nah, not in da first 100 days, and not in the midst of two wars and a depression. The carpin' to my mind is way too shrill and unpatriotic given the challenges. Smacks of carin' more about a silly political party than about the country. Or carin' more about latent racism they haven't gotten over than anything. I honestly don't know what this thread is about, but I will say that I admire my fellow Americans who can speak their mind thoughtfully and respectfully, and then roll up their sleeves and help the other guy get the job done for the nation. Can't say as I have much use for the rest, liberal or conservative. Though I have less use for da liberals . Right now, though, I wish someone would put da Republican Party out of its misery. They need to dump a lot of their folks and start fresh, or da rest of us conservatives need to go out and start a new party. Beavah

Yah, I was just thinkin' this might be a fine youth example of that problematic WB21C game "Win all you can". Yeh send out a whole host of lads to go nuts for two days tryin' to grab as many badges as they can for themselves. Then at the end yeh only give awards to the boys who are actually able to demonstrate real, thorough understanding of one thing in the act of helping someone else. And who actually know the name of their counselor. B

The Scout is about 14, a Star and has 30 merit badges....The Scout said he didn't really know because HE HAD NEVER EARNED A MERIT BADGE OUTSIDE OF SUMMER CAMP! Holy smoke! Yah, I hope he at least was doin' more than one week of camp each year, eh? Otherwise that would be 10 MB's per week at camp! Coming soon: Merit Badge Drive-thru window at Council Service Center... Nah, Hal_Crawford, da logical next step is to run MBs like we run adult trainin'. Thirty minutes watchin' an online video should do the trick. Yeh can even throw in a 5-question multiple choice quiz for the lad. PeteM, yeh beat your district staff over da head with the BSA policy statements about how MBs are to be counseled and what the purpose of the program is, and if that doesn't work yeh send your COR to vote your District Chair and Program Committee folks out of office at the next district annual meeting. I suspect the folks are well-meaning Cubbers, eh? Nobody bothered to help 'em learn that boy scouting is different. Personally, I wish we'd fix webelos and confine the badge mania to Wolves and Bears. Beavah

Dump him any way you can as quickly as you can. Humiliate him. Make him know he is a detriment to society. Personally, I'd give him a good kick on the way out the door. Oi! Another hang 'em high, zero tolerance sort eh? Alcohol is a funny thing. Can be a real problem for some folks. Hard thing to get a handle on. And in da present economy, a loss of job or impending loss can make even a good man drink a bit. I think yeh might choose to mention it to da SE, but yeh tell the COR/IH and follow da instructions of your CO and its staff. If your CO is a church, I expect that they have some pretty strong feelings about how to handle a family like this with compassion and understanding, while still protecting the kids and the program. Your unit leaders work for da CO, and it's the CO's call. By and large if the fellow has been a responsible and committed leader around the boys with no problems, I think yeh might consider allowing him to continue. At least as long as there are other adults around who could catch it if he came to a meeting drunk (two deep even at meetings, not counting his wife). Driving won't be a problem, as I'm sure his license will be suspended for quite a stretch. Beavah

Yah, what Lisabob said is true, eh? But it sounds to me like you're more in a small-town kind of environment where it's goin' to be easier than all that. Yeh just need the pastor to agree to shift the charter to da VFW. Or yeh just get the VFW to charter a new pack and yeh transfer all the adults and leaders over to it. That'll make the DE happy, he can show two units in your area for a whole year! I'd still keep up good relations with the pastor and the church, eh? And everyone else yeh come in contact with. In smaller towns, the sole pack (and hopefully down the road a troop) very much is the "town's pack/troop". While da church or VFW may hold the charter, everyone feels ownership. Beavah

You need ask for approval to wear your uniforms during fundraising. Nah, I'd go at this da other way, eh? You own your uniform. You bought and paid money for it and have the right to wear it, just like any other name brand piece of clothing you purchased. Under the law, it's up to the BSA to object if it feels it can demonstrate that the context in which you are wearin' it constitutes misrepresentation and infringes on a trademark or other limited grant of exclusivity. Wear your uniform until told not to. Then take off the uniform and cease your FOS donations. Beavah

I spy with my little eye something that begins with the letter "E"... "Marcus, this is the kind of conversation that can only end with a gunshot! " - Stephen Franklin

Yah, wow, this is pretty extreme, eh? Four boys and ten adults??!! Not extreme. Unbelievable! Can't say I know how to penetrate it. I think with that many adults, there's too many votes in favor of da status quo. I think if yeh want to change the dynamic, yeh get the Venture Patrol ASM and a few like-minded parents to charter a crew. Yeh have to set up a different adult organization that the boys then join in order to leave da gang of adults behind. That's the only way it will ever work. Then maybe they'll all keep up their adult camping club without the lads! Beavah

Yah, my problem is that the DE (and often da SE) has an impossible job. It's set up as an enormous conflict of interest. Their legal and moral duty is to the council corporation and its directors and members (the unit sponsors). But they're evaluated base on their national numbers, and their upward mobility is similarly based on their loyalty to da national system. Heck, it's da textbook definition of conflict of interest! Add to that, these guys are put into fundraisin' roles with near zero training and support. If they came from out of the area, they also have no contacts. The fundraisin' is primarily to pay their salaries and make their own evaluation numbers, and often ain't tied to serving kids or units or Scouting - yet another conflict. Da system is an ethical morass and a complete mess. We take young folks who care about service and scouting and chew through 'em like raw meat. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I hire an entry level person my intention is to mentor 'em and have a growth path in mind for 'em. They're both an investment and a moral obligation, eh? Saddest thing is that this dysfunctional system is tough even for a competent, responsible council board to break. Takes a lot of chudzpah and a willingness to leave some bodies on da floor, as Eamonn suggests. That's not the way it should be. Beavah

Yah, Sharpy, a Scout Salute to yeh for stepping forward as you did, and for stickin' with things when things got sticky. Since right now you're a pack of tiger cubs, I wouldn't worry too much yet about a full committee and all da assorted roles. That stuff is stuff that will start to make more sense when yeh grow next year and add some new tigers and parents. To answer your specific question, the right and proper ethical thing to do in this situation is to honor the wishes and generosity of the donor. What da DE wants to pay his salary is irrelevant. Our duty under God and under the Law is to honor the wishes of the donor. If the VFW is givin' you funds of its own accord, you accept those funds and you use them as the VFW has designated. Period. You have no choice. That is breaking no rules, that is following the rules. If the DE says otherwise, he's just wrong and is pushin' his own agenda. You or the VFW or the church pastor thank him for his input and caution him not to let the door hit him on da way out. So proceed. You're just fine. Down the road a spell, you'll want to quietly and gently work out the formalities. Maybe the VFW would like to charter you instead of the church. Figure out who owns the Scout Hut, who has da insurance on the scout hut (for stuff like theft!) and make sure that relationship is OK. Get a workin' committee together, includin' a fellow or two from the church and from the VFW and maybe from the city and some other folks. I think yeh have some real potential to build a fantastic program which is supported by the people of your town and is a real asset to the community. Be thinkin' a few years out, have a vision of where you're goin', and never turn down generosity from friends and neighbors. And never let a DE get in da way of that vision. Beavah

Yah, Buffalo, you were raisin' money for your scout troop, right? It wasn't goin' into the boys' pockets in any way, right? Then wear your uniform with pride. Beavah

It tells troop adults that they must find some way to keep boys active OTHER THAN writing a troop rule in the troop bylaws. Yah, this is just a fiction, eh? The units that have adults who aren't running an engaging program lose the boys to other troops or activities. They shrink. Some fold. There's no need for 'em to deal with "hangers on" with participation expectations, because the lads just leave. They don't see anything valuable to hang on for. When yeh have hangers on, we're talkin' about units where lots of boys are active, and the adults are runnin' a fine program which serves those boys. That's where some lads want the prize because they see the unit program as bein' something valuable, but they haven't learned character and citizenship that well yet. So they do what boys do. They try to skate by. They try to play the system to do the minimum. They push da boundaries to see whether the adults really care about their values. Or their parents push for 'em. That's the sign of a good program, eh? They have values and expectations which boys push against and test. Boys don't respond to adult written rules in adult documents. As oft as not, these participation rules are put in place by (or at least supported by) the youth PLC. I challenge yeh to find any youth who thinks it's fair to give some kid the same award he got when that kid didn't do the same work he did. Kids have a very acute sense of fairness, eh? And when we don't demonstrate that same sense of fairness, they dismiss our awards as bein' worthless. Which, quite frankly, they are. Beavah

"There's always the threat of an attack by say, a giant space dragon. The kind that eats the sun once every 30 days. It's a nuisance, but what can you expect from reptiles? Did I mention that my nose is on fire? And that I have 15 wild badgers living in my trousers?... I'm sorry would you prefer ferrets? " - Marcus Cole We live for the One, we die for the One.

If National would spell out EXACTLY what was required, a lot of these problems would go away! Yah, sure, because most of da volunteers and kids would go away. I've never quite understood da rush to put everything in the hands of the central government. When has any central government demonstrated high competence in running everyone's local affairs? John-in-KC is right, eh? If yeh nationalize the education system, we'd get school requirements set to da least common denominator. Somethin' like Detroit or Washington DC. public schools. If yeh truly nationalize the implementation of scouting, you get da least common denominator as well. And Irving has hardly been "stable" in its interpretation of da process or requirements, eh? Here in the U.S., citizenship is based on multiple levels of jurisdiction, which check and balance each other, eh? Probably best when yeh have national goals but local enactment. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

In this district it has been common for the rules to change suddenly, without warning, and for no apparent reason (not, thankfully, to include letters though). I can understand how a leader can be unaware of at least some of the rules, some of the time. Not just in that district, eh? This happens all over. Every new DAC seems to want to rework da process. Or else someone goes off to one of the regional training sessions and comes back and reorganizes everything. I try to coach such folks that the best service to units is stability in the process. The average SM only has a couple Eagles a year. If the process gets tweaked every year, it pretty much seems like it's random, eh? Almost every new Eagle has to do somethin' different. I think districts should lock it in like the Scout Handbook. Come up with a relatively straightforward system, not too bureaucratic, then no changes for ten years no matter who works the committee or what comes out of Irving this week. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred days of camping scouts trained have I. My own counsel will I keep on who is ready to be advanced in rank. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life looked away he has... to the future, to the horizon, to the next mountain. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. Reckless you are. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Hmmm? Even between the land and the ship. Practice you must. Focused your mind must be. Adventure come it will. Be prepared you must.

Yah, CA_Scouter. Like nolesrule says, I agree it can be confusin'. Da Boy Scouts Requirement Book doesn't include things that the application form requires, and neither include things that the project workbook requires or that the district expects. I appreciate your quotes, but when yeh read the other documents, you discover that the Advancement Committee can indeed use letters, and that the candidate can be expected to deliver reference forms and envelopes to the references. "The candidate should have contacted individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references." The committee shouldn't wait overlong for late letters, eh? But in this case, you're askin' the committee to expedite a BOR, rather than followin' da normal schedule which would allow time for letters to come in. Only natural that they expect you to help expedite the letters, IMO. The bureaucratic process for Eagle Scout is a bit out of control, perhaps, though I honestly don't get da angst that letters of reference seem to cause some folks. Regardless, don't shoot da poor volunteers in your district on that account. Especially not when they're tryin' to be helpful when quite a few districts would not go out of their way for your timing request. Beavah

Is the Eagle advisor the DAR? Daughter of the American Revolution? I thought he was a guy! Of course, in keepin' with da B5 thing, he/she might be a DILGAR instead of a DAR. In that case, yeh better run fast and far. B

Wilderness First Aid classes are typically 16-24 hours. Those can be good classes, leastways for adults. I think folks still end up forgettin' a fair bit, even with the usual 3-year renewal requirements. I know some crews that specialize in that area where the kids take Wilderness First Responder (usually an 80-hour course). B

Yah, OK, da Babylon 5 quotes I got. But now yeh are all speakin' Greek. It is interestin', though, how culture changes. These days being a gEEk has nowhere near the stigma among youth (or adults) that it once did. Now it's kind of counterculture cool. I find that hopeful. B

Beavah, I think the rural comment is out of place, assuming where are the people involved located... Now, that's opening another can of worms with the hole internet involvement on this, is not good all the time and teaching a young lad to use this technology can backfire. be carefull what you say... Hi wolfmama! I'm a country boy myself. I was basin' the rural comment on da fact that the nearest reading MBC counselor was over 45 minutes away. In my state, anyway, rural school systems are big investors in distance learning technology, eh? Just seemed like a natural fit. And as John pointed out, it ain't just rural schools! Kids are pretty savvy about this stuff. I'm not sure how teachin' a lad to make a videoconference call on Skype to a registered merit badge counselor would backfire (?). It's just a telephone with video. Plus, if you're livin' on a base that's seen a lot of deployments overseas, I'm willing to bet that those families are familiar with Skype. It's probably the favorite way for such families to keep in touch. When you live in an area when people come and go as a military base and the MBC's list is not always up to date what are you going to do... I reckon you do the same thing you'd do if a lad came and wanted to work on Geology MB, eh? You'd go find a (non-parent) counselor for the boy. Yah, sure, in some remote locations it might happen that a parent really is the only available person with real expertise in one of da more obscure merit badges. Then I reckon yeh go with what you've got. But for Readin'? Scholarship? As a district official, I'd be in the office of the principal of the school which served the base, signin' up the school counselors for Scholarship and the Language Arts teachers for Reading. What a great way to work together! IMO DAC's too often spend their time in da paperwork shuffle, when their real purpose is bringin' in resources to serve the units. Beavah

Da rank application clearly lists a requirement for providing references from a parent, a religious official, an educational official, an employer (if any), and two others. Council is allowed to determine how those references are contacted, and expecting letters is just fine. I'm not sure why anyone would expect that a parent, a parent's friend, etc. would be sufficient when it asks in black and white for an educational and employer reference? Our Eagle Scouts are going to fill out college applications at some point, eh? It's necessary to read those, too. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Are the six new scouts friends? I think yeh find one or two good "marks" and see that older boys encourage them, eh? Like as not, when one lad starts showing off his book, the others will compare, and some natural competition will be in play. Then yeh just need to reach out a bit to the one or two quieter, shyer lads who aren't motivated by competition. Really, the game is for your TGs or PLs and ASMs to get to know each boy and what makes him tick. That will lead you to what motivates him, or in some cases whether gettin' to TF by summer camp is even a good idea. Beavah