Beavah

Yah, maybe I'm just feelin' ornery today. I'm thinkin' that if I hear someone use da phrase "that's adding to the requirements!" one more time about somethin' trivial I'm goin' to blow a gasket. Since when did we become a nation of adults who teach kids to strive for the absolute minimum required? A nation of whiners indeed! I reckon people should be embarrased if their son goin' for Eagle can't manage to secure a few reference letters or show up in a decent uniform. I sure would be. I'd be mortified. I'd be callin' up da SM and sayin' "I'm sorry, George, clearly my kid is just not deservin' of this award yet." Da notion of no adding to the requirements in the guidelines means yeh can't decide as a MBC that First Aid Merit Badge should have a requirement for insertin' an emergency chest tube into patients. In other words, yeh can't seriously bump up the expectations with additional onerous hurdles. It doesn't mean that we're supposed to interpret every requirement in the most limited and superficial way. Nor does it mean that we can't expect boys to do ordinary things that they're clearly capable of doing. I don't mind deferring to a unit's expectations for things like da uniform. If a lad is followin' his units uniform standards, that shouldn't be an issue for a BOR anyways. And there's always room for exceptions. We once had a boy show up (late!) in scout pants and a T-shirt because he'd stopped to help at an accident on the way and his scout shirt had been used for bandaging material. All those are different than a boy choosin' to just show up in jeans, a tank top, and flip flops out of lack of respect for himself and others. All this "Adding to the requirements!" malarkey reminds me of one of da Lethal Weapon movies, where the bad guy keeps claimin' "Diplomatic Immunity" as he steals and murders his way around town. It's an abuse of the term and its intent. In fact, I'd like to see Danny Glover revoke da "Adding to Requirements Immunity!" from the next person who claims it for somethin' where it clearly doesn't, or shouldn't apply. Beavah

Yah, so many things can look so different if we just change our own attitude, eh? *We already missed a couple of events because of baseball....His friends in the other patrol have moved on, I guess they already have tenderfoot, mine still just has his AOL. So? It ain't a race. Scoutin' is a video game. Those who play it more advance to higher levels faster. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to play even if your friends are further along. *The SM put a new kid from another feeder pack into my kid's patrol. This boy is in my kids class at school, and my kid loathes him. This is the class pariah who picks his nose. My kid is not a snob, but there are limits. Yah, I reckon it's important for us as adults to support our kids in treatin' other boys as pariahs. I can't help but wishin' for you a forced job change, so that your son has to move to a different school where he gets to experience what it's like bein' the new guy who is on da "out" with the cool kids. Bein' da "pariah" for a bit might help him learn empathy and compassion. *Even his mom, who was always VERY supportive of his scouting activities, is burned out....I guess what we needed was "Webelos III" as some of you have suggested. You're jokin' right? If mom is burnt out, why would she want Webelos III where she has to keep doin' everything the way she did in Webelos II? The advantage of Boy Scouting is that it's not like that. Adults can fade back and let da kids shoulder some of the burden, so the lads are learnin' and the adults aren't gettin' burnt out. *Were accustomed to summers off. We need this down time. Camping every other week, 52 weeks a year for the WHOLE weekend is out of our reach. Who is this "our?". Sometimes I reckon parents think of their kids as an appendage of themselves. You might need summers off. Most boys get pretty bored and would love to be goin' on campouts and runnin' around and playin' capture the flag in the mud and dark and learnin' how to be independent in the woods and survivin'. If yeh view your son as a separate person with his own needs (and his own schedule!) and stop thinkin' of him as an appendage of "us", you'll find that your life as a family improves quite a bit. It's scarier, it feels less in control, but in da end the love and the pride make up for it. Beavah

Yah, DanKroh, if that ain't da perfect definition of repression and bias I don't know what is, eh? "OB/GYN's needed. Christians and muslims need not apply." It's their fault for bein' Catholic or Orthodox or whatever. If those people really wanted a good career in medicine helpin' women and babies and young families they would have da decency to be atheists. They could always practice geriatrics instead, even though they have no interest in that field. Or, well, they could until da government tells 'em they have to assist in suicides. That's OK, we need more ditch diggers, and that's all those people are good for anyways. Just imagine the howl if it was suggested that an atheist should not be allowed to practice oncology, because da government felt that docs should provide religious comfort to cancer patients who requested it. Beavah

Spies? Nah. Occasional trolls. Lot's o' funny critters like Beavers and Bobwhites. It is a public forum, of course, so I reckon what you're implyin' is that someone else from your troop or district has been readin'? I honestly don't think that's a problem, if everyone has been honest. While there can be some emotion in these things, scouters as a whole are a fairly sane and thoughtful bunch who really have da best interest of kids at heart. Stay respectful, let da process proceed and let people do their jobs. Glad to hear there's an EBOR / appeal scheduled. That's da next step. Keep us posted. Beavah

BSA states as part of their Youth Protection training and also in the Guide to Safe Scouting - "The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member. Yah, da "physical injury" thing should be a tip-off here, eh? This policy means that yeh should inform the scout executive about serious issues that may involve legal entanglements or trigger insurance coverage, eh? It doesn't mean that yeh should inform da SE about every kid wrestling match where there's an inadvertent knee to the groin, or one lad calls another lad "gay" or some other innuendo. That's ordinary youth (mis)behavior that any competent adult should be able to handle. I continue to be amazed by the scouters who feel the need to "run to daddy" whenever such ordinary youth or adult behavior issues crop up. Whether "daddy" is da SE or some policy document or zero-tolerance position. Beavah

Yah, there is somethin' to be said for Scouter.Com, eh? Da issues forums keeps me in touch with what's goin' on among da nut cases. State legislatures votin' sovereignty resolutions and talkin' about secession? Hysterical. I love it comin' out of places like Alaska which have been livin' off da federal dole to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars for years. I feel like a parent. "Yah, junior, you can be independent when yeh show you can actually support yourself." Addin' Georgia to the mix is even better, eh? I think they have one of da highest school dropout rates in the U.S. Hope all those uneducated folks and dimwitted legislators can support 'em when they become independent. My guess is that they end up with roughly the economic clout of Paraguay. Does show how the polarization of politics leads to da multiplication of fools. We need a majority Moderate party of loyal, patriotic Americans. Beavah

Narraticong, in one sentence states that it matters not and in then later he implies that someone or something is trying to force his denomination to change their beliefs. That is quite alarming and whether Narraticong is mistaken, or if he has some evidence to support his assertion Yah, packsaddle, that's certainly what's goin' on, or at least being talked about indirectly, eh? Let's take a different issue, medical practitioners of conscience whose religious beliefs do not allow them to encourage, offer, or perform abortions or some other kinds of medical procedures. There are certainly many who would like a hospital or practitioner receivin' government money in any form to be required to offer or assist in such procedures. Da ACLU has dutifully sued to overturn regulations protecting workers making conscience choices. Essentially, they want O.R. nurses to be fired for not participating in abortions and the like. Here is da problem with big government. Given the huge government involvement in medical care, persons of conscience or institutions of faith cannot afford to turn down that money. When government is half your market and margins are small, yeh can't do that without goin' out of business. So da net effect of da ACLU suit, if successful along with other policy changes advocated by people of similar mind, is to say that Catholics can't run hospitals and Christians, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews aren't allowed to be nurses, physicians, or medical techs in broad swaths of da medical field. Merlyn would say "sure they can, as long as they deny their faith." If they accept government money, they have to do what da government says, and provide all authorized services to everyone. If they can't compete with da government offering free health care, then they shouldn't be in medicine. And there yeh have it, economic coercion. Convert to our way of thinkin', or yeh can't work in your chosen field. Convert, or yeh have to choose a less rewarding career. Interested in Medicine under universal health care? Christians need not apply. B

[APPLAUSE] Scout Salute! Two! Good job. B

Do yeh have an effective CC or COR for da troop? Generally speakin', every unit needs an "elder statesman" with at least the moral authority to pull adult leaders or parents aside, so to speak. Sometimes that can be the SM, but it doesn't sound like it in your case. Sometimes it's a CC or COR or former SM. If yeh have one of those, I'd let 'em know and let them do the job, at least to start. First shot is always friendly one-on-one. Second shot if da first one doesn't take is a couple of folks, and you should be in on it. Third shot gets formal. I also like shortridge's notion, eh? Cut 'em loose to a proprietary, doomed-to-die crew and finish your ticket by startin' a new crew. Beavah

LOL. Yah, da Great Scoutmaster works in amusin' ways, eh? Good luck to your son tomorrow night, CA_Scouter! It'll be our pleasure to welcome another Eagle to da convocation. B

LOL, me thinks I struck a nerve. I will observe LNT as far as fires and cooking and the reast goes, but clothing and equipment? Sure seems like "I'll observe da rules and guidance I agree with, and ignore the rest." And I reckon "derision" is a bit strong, eh? More like friendly chiding. If I am in a public campsite and there are people around other than the troop, we will adhere to lights out and all the quiet rules they have, if we are alone, we will scream as loud as possible. Pretty disturbin' to the wildlife, eh? And I reckon there are few spots in the lower 48 where if a group screamed as loud as possible they wouldn't be heard by somebody. Might be fun briefly once or twice just to hear da echo, but as a regular practice and example to boys? if my thoughts on LNT make me part of the reason naturalists detest boy scouts, I guess that's their problem Nah, it's our problem, because it hurts our image and restricts our access to the woods and streams where we run our program. And it ain't "naturalists", it's "Land Management Agencies" and park rangers and fellow citizens on the trails. Timeless values to my mind include livin' up to da standards of good campers and woodsmen, eh? Yep, those standards have changed quite a bit since I was a lad. Product of havin' 10 times the number of user-days on our public lands since when us young dinosaurs roamed. Doesn't absolve us, though. B

Anyone ever try one of these? http://icecreamrevolution.com/ B

While we didn't exactly bang pots and pans, we did sing, talked and shout out, "Human Beings Approaching!) every few hundred yards. You've got to be kiddin' me! It's a wonder you didn't get shot. Deer season hunters get two weeks out of da year. For some of 'em, they need that buck to help feed their families, or at least help 'em out a bit financially. And yeh think it's fine and dandy to go marchin' along drivin' all wildlife away for miles because you assume da men out hunting can't recognize a blaze orange troop of boys? As for bears, that advice applies primarily to solo hikers and such. Yeh don't have to worry a lick about a bear hearin' a patrol of Boy Scouts even if they're tryin' to be quiet. As a conservative, I don't see LNT as a Liberal issue. I see it as bein' in the best conservative tradition. Teachin' personal responsibility rather than turning to intrusive regulation. Conservin' our environment for da future so that our grandkids can enjoy the same benefits of da nation that we did. But if we fail in teachin' that sort of personal responsibility, then there's no doubt da regulations will take over. No wonder land managers are increasingly putting group size and other restrictions on to try to keep Boy Scouts out of da woods. Our reputation as lousy campers is apparently deserved. And here I am advocatin' in favor of da rules and principles, while OGE is firmly disobedient. Who'd a thunk it. Beavah

My boys know that the troop is early rising, so they are all normally in bed by 10:00 pm. Yah, me, I'm more fond of da patrol method, eh? Can't for the life of me figure why an entire troop should get up at the same time. May just be me enjoyin' da morning quiet, but even da camp-wide loudspeaker reveille I find annoyin'. Da patrols planned their own day, right? And their own meals? If one patrol planned a quick breakfast while another decided to catch fish in da early dawn to make trout quiche, then I reckon they should get up and go to bed at different times. Beavah

If a webelos scout wakes up crying for mommy or wets his bed, you are going to say the PL deals with that? Interesting solution. Yah, yeh didn't say this was a webelos event, eh? It was posted as a troop event. As a troop event, yes, I'd expect da older scout PL or the Troop Guide to deal with that. Seen lots of lads handle it with great care and dignity. And if they get in over their heads or the boy just won't listen to anybody but an adult, then they come and get an ASM. But honestly, as the WDL, don't yeh have a really good idea whether this is goin' to be an issue for any of your lads? And wouldn't yeh encourage/insist on mom or dad coming out if yeh had that concern? So it probably wouldn't be you dealin' with it either, eh? It should be the lad's designated adult (parent or temporary responsible adult) under the Cub Camping rules. B

Yah, I've seen a few that were tight. One lad who had a prior project fall through because of a change of administrator in da city parks department. He squeaked by with a new project in about 4-5 weeks. Keep in mind, that's a lad who had to find a new project from scratch, but who already knew the whole project approval game. And there were a lot of adults settin' up "emergency reviews" for him b/c they felt he'd gotten shafted by the city. Seen a lot of lads inside the 2-3 month window who fail to complete in time. B

Yah, remove from da charter, send out notes to all the families thanking 'em for their service and introducing the new CC and CM. As for da Camporee, I think it's OK for someone to approach her and say that the pack really wants the new CM and CC to represent 'em at the event to give them a chance to get started, etc. Would they mind terribly giving 'em some space by stayin' home on this first one, etc. They'll hopefully get da hint. Beavah

The guy is in jail! He plead guilty! He is convicted of DUI! According to his wife. I wonder if anyone's checked? B

Yah, happens all da time. Nah, you're goin' to find it hard to change adult styles. Better to teach da kids how to manage each adult . A really wise group of scouters will recognize that certain boys and adults seem to "click." Billy seems to always look for approval from Mr. Jones, Mr. Smith has fun talkin' sci-fi with Johnny, etc. If yeh can identify the ones that "click", then yeh just set up a dynamic where that adult is the one who works with that lad, and others defer to him or her. Beavah

Yah, fleetfootedfox, to my mind this is smaller than a molehill. Different troops do have different cultures. It can make some sense for a PL to quiet his guys down if there's a 30 mile mountain bike ride da next day. Barrin' that, though, these lads are boy scouts. Determinin' when to go to bed is part of individual youth responsibility. If they go to bed late, they're tired the next day and they learn. If we're motherin' 'em with bedtimes then they'll never grow up. And a troop-wide bedtime or lights out? Pah. That's somethin' da PLs should be handlin' if anybody. I can't say I'd ever have da gumption to assign a bedtime for adults. That seems just as discourteous. If a SM finds over time that certain adults get too crabby to work well with boys because they stay up late, he shouldn't invite 'em out, as Stosh suggests. Other than that, some folks are just late owls by nature. Me, I'm an early bird. Just da way of things. I recommend the earplug solution if yeh insist on camping close. Da PL, not you, should be the one respondin' to any youth issues in the middle of the night. Andy any "danger" others are goin' to wake yeh for. You can get da small foam shooting sports jobbers cheap, and they're not uncomfortable. Know lots of scouters who use 'em without a problem, includin' this early bird! Beavah

Yah, but worth double-checkin' on any caving opportunities in da east, eh? There's currently a moratorium on all caving in the eastern states because of a disease that is being transmitted to and killing large populations of bats. Da worries are that cavers are transmitting the disease on clothing between caves, and that bats stressed by this disease can't take bein' disturbed by cavers. Check with da caverns and with da NSS. Even though a commercial enterprise may be operatin' to make money, we should be more responsible users. Beavah

Yah, TwoCubDad, this reportin' thing seems to cause no end of confusion, eh? Understand first that da BSA's national materials cannot get this right, because da various states are all over the map on this stuff, eh? So if you're just relyin' on some national video, you're not gettin' da real picture. Take it with a grain of salt, and certainly never quote it authoritatively to others. That's why da online course is supposed to make yeh download da local rules. Unfortunately, councils are pretty sloppy about puttin' those together. Because there are so many jurisdictions I just can't give yeh any reliable advice, eh? All I can do is speculate out loud about who does what. Child Protective Services (or whatever it's called in your state) typically has jurisdiction over investigations of suspicion of child abuse and neglect, however those are defined for your state. Usually, child abuse and neglect is limited to abuse by parents/guardians. In some states, it also applies to abuse by summer camp employees. In no state that I'm aware of does it apply to unit scouters, but these things change all da time. So... if you have reasonable suspicion of child abuse by a parent or guardian, yeh call Child Protective Services and only them. If yeh call your SE, that constitutes defamation if there's no proof of abuse and da person's reputation was harmed. That's not goin' to be a small judgment against you either, eh? You will pretty much have ruined someone's life. Only reports to CPS (or law enforcement in some states) are granted limited statutory immunity, not reports to an SE. Law Enforcement (the police) has jurisdiction over investigations of crimes of battery and such on children by non-custodial adults (like volunteer scouters) or peers. If yeh witness such a crime, or have direct evidence of such a crime (like da direct testimony of the child), yeh call da child's parent and law enforcement. If yeh call CPS, they'll only refer you to law enforcement because they don't have jurisdiction. Statutory immunity in these cases typically does not apply, which is why yeh should set a higher standard than "reasonable suspicion" for makin' such an accusation. Mostly, you're there to encourage da child and their parents to report, not to make an accusation yourself unless you witnessed the crime. And of course in this case yeh also let da SE and program supervisor know, so they can handle da media and insurers. The Program Supervisor has jurisdiction over internal investigations of their program and dismissal of their volunteers and employees. So if yeh have reasonable suspicion of a crime of battery on a child by a scouter, yeh call da program supervisor (COR/IH for unit programs, SE for district/council or for units which don't have a response policy set up). And no one else. Da point is you are expressing a concern to your superior for his/her attention, rather than making an accusation. Your supervisor then is responsible for doin' an investigation to decide whether removal (or referral to law enforcement) is called for. When yeh just have "suspicion" for a crime outside of scouting, dat's the trickiest. That's why in da youth protection trainin' they tell you to stay available for a child who is showin' signs, to be there if he (or she) wants to talk. At da point where the child tells yeh about a crime, then you can act. I reckon for most of us if our suspicions were strong, we'd approach law enforcement or the district attorney quietly with our suspicions without makin' an accusation. And tell no one else. Personally, I think da information Hal_Crawford got from his YPT class is irresponsible, and what Buffalo Skipper reports is much more sound. But then I'm just an anonymous furry fellow on da internet, and nuthin that I type should ever be construed as legal advice or opinion. Just da theoretical meanderings of my muse. If yeh get in da thick of things, do your best to do what's right for both da kid and the (potentially innocent) adult. If you're unsure, ask for real advice from an attorney licensed to practice in your state. Not da SE, eh? Someone real. Of course, none of this has a lick to do with this DUI fellow, so forgive da hijack. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I've always found da summer shutdown thing odd. Maybe it comes out of da south, where it gets so hot in da summer? Up in the north, I can't imagine lettin' da months of June, July, and August go to waste. Troops should double their number of meetings and have 'em all outdoors! That havin' been said, I've surveyed a lot of troops and districts on this over da years. My best guess is that it's close to 50-50 in terms of troops that run a summer program other than camp. Maybe 60-40, but no better than that. Never really looked at what caused it. My best guess is adults comin' out of cubs who are used to that school year cub thing. I know that da Catholic units are instructed by their national office to run a full 12-month program. Does anybody know if any of da other Chartering Partners with a national presence have similar requirements? LDS? Beavah

Not a concern, mdsummer45. NeilLup gave yeh da straight scoop. Eagle BOR can be held within 3 months after his 18th birthday, no problem. 6 months after, no real problem. There's no time crunch. Da issue of the SM's lack of endorsement will be decided by da Eagle BOR, whenever it occurs. Again, no real problem. The only issue around the 18th Birthday is if a BOR discovers something missing, or has to say "not yet" for some reason. If the lad is under 18, he can go back and finish whatever is missing or work hard on improving whatever wasn't up to snuff. If he's over 18, he can't. That's the problem with gettin' close to deadlines. But your son was at that spot anyways, eh? One month before doesn't give him time to fix many things either. So at this point, there's no time pressure, and pushin' when folks are sick or whatnot is only goin' to look gauche. Beavah Everyone always coming to Zathras with problems. Great responsibilities. But Zathras does not mind. Zathras trained in crisis management. (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Beavah, I think the point is that the same words that you just wrote to promote a pragmatic approach were also used to promote something that "Left us with a long term tragic legacy that's hard to overcome. Yah, and da same words Merlyn writes were used to promote Stalinist communism. People can believe what they want, but state support will be withdrawn from all alternative viewpoints. If da state is very small and limited, then that doesn't matter much. If da state controls all da means of production, then that amounts to complete repression of alternate viewpoints. In our case, where the state controls around 40% of da means of production (and more every day), it amounts to substantial repression of any viewpoint contrary to those of white suburban secularists. Merlyn doesn't mind repressing views other than his own. Like all zealots, he tries to turn it into a Holy Cause based on his personal view of Scripture (in this case, da Constitution, not the Bible). I just disagree is all. I think it's best if government is kept small, so that it can't effectively change viewpoints usin' economic access as a lever. But if government is large, then it should offer jobs and discounts and access to people regardless of their beliefs or associations, based solely on serving a governmental purpose. Anything else is dangerous. Beavah