Beavah

Bumpin' this back up. Seems like it's been nearly a month since da end of the district-level appeal. I expect da council-level appeal has been decided by now. Any word, mdsummer45? B

Me, I reckon I stand alongside the brave young people who struggle for freedom everywhere. Scoutin' is a worldwide endeavor, and as far as I'm concerned those Iranian students and teachers and workers wearin' green neckerchiefs and armbands are our fellow Scouts. They're in my prayers each night. Close as I can tell, da essential element of da conflict is the religious debate amongst the Mehdi (Ayatollahs). Shiite Islam has always been more wary of church/state entanglements than da Sunnis, and what we're seein' now is a public manifestation of the struggle within that group. On one side, there's Khamenei and the ghost of Khomenei. On the other are Montazeri (Khomenei's original choice to succeed him), Rafsanjani and Iraqi Shiite leaders like Ali Sistani. If Khamenei were to die soon, it seems likely that his replacement would steer a different course, or that da position might be eliminated in favor of a council of clerics. I don't think it matters much, though. Da college aged kids now are Iran's Baby Boom generation - the children born after the Iran-Iraq war who have grown up in da theocracy. Like our civil rights and anti-war protests in the 60's for our Baby Boomers, this will be their defining struggle. That either means that the theocracy is doomed, or that the theocracy will have to be willing to change to an open dictatorship and hold the population at gunpoint (which means da mullahs are doomed, because in an open dictatorship the Army will take power, not yield to the Mehdi). So in da long run, this marks at least the beginning of the end of the Islamic Republic experiment. Beavah

Yah, it's a word to da SM and then work on the committee to deal with MB fairs and such, eh? I'm with ghermmano, this is in part an issue with da MBC that needs to be addressed with the MBC. Trust is nice, but when workin' with kids there's an element of "trust, but verify." A MBC's duty is not to check boxes, it's to work with a lad. I'm less sanguine about da notion that somehow the procedures prevent us from doin' what's right for a boy in a particular case. Often in cases like this, what's right is to work with the boy so that he gets da full benefit of the badge. If that means holdin' up the award until he does so, or makin' him go back and actually do the things the badge indicates that he did, so be it. We learn honor when we're young because folks care enough about us to hold us to bein' honorable. Beavah

Yah, readin' these things too closely can make your head hurt, eh? If I recall correctly, small sunfish sailboats are required to have fire extinguishers and running lights too, eh? I'm not much of a biker, but da thought of a bunch of mountain bikers ringin' little bells while they go trail ridin' brings me to giggles. Seems like a mirror is a good idea. Seems like wearin' a camelback would be a much better choice these days than a bike-mounted water bottle. Leastways, that's what the kids seem to do. And I can't imagine why they'd object to a Camelback-style day pack for carryin' a few things. If lads are really ridin' at night where they need reflectors, I think they're far better off usin' those little red LED taillights and shirts/jackets with reflector tape. I can see those a lot better as a driver. Beavah

Now you're just trollin', mate. Do you have a Scouting question or contribution to make? If not, time to saddle up and move along, or at least take this over to Issues & Politics. B

Scouting says no alcohol! It does not say bring a six pack, pistol and machete just in case. It also says be Kind and Mentally awake. I enjoyed codger's story, maybe just because I'm a fellow codger. Showed a SM's wisdom in handlin' a tough situation. BTW, codger, welcome to da forums! Nice to have yeh. Hope you sit for a spell. B

Yah, apparently from da articles the boys and the one ASM were all from the same troop. They claim to be retaliating for a racial slur made to a black boy in their troop by someone in the victim's troop (but perhaps not this particular boy). Doesn't matter, eh? A slur by a 12-year-old days before does not come near justifying a premeditated assault by an adult and group of older teens. No one in their right mind would give that excuse a moment's credence. From the context, the 21-year-old was the ringleader, eh? No 15 or 16 year old is goin' to do that with a 21 year old around unless the 21-year-old approves and encourages. And the 21-year-old was apparently the one who made him drink the urine. Yeh have to just stand in horror at what that troop's culture must be like. I hope the council is lookin' at that, eh? This might be one of those rare times where a CO has to clean house or lose its charter. While da kidnapping charge is just the DA's opening card, it's unlikely this man gets off without pleading to a felony. Not with da assault on video. If he has any assets, the civil case is of course a slam-dunk. As for the juveniles, how their criminal cases proceed will depend on the DA and how much of this was the adult's idea. It's worth notin' that Florida has no limits on recovery under its parental responsibility law, so yeh can bet that the parents of the three juveniles are facin' potentially life-altering civil cases. That's not a prank, eh? Kudos to the boy's troop leaders and the camp staff for doin' the right thing. I'm not sure I'd have been able to. A detailed, face-first, latrine-by-latrine "inspection" of da entire camp with that 21-year-old's head before handin' him over to da sheriff seems about right. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I reckon it's an act of mercy to instruct and counsel those in need, eh? I think yeh did fine. I think yeh did even better in recognizin' that this is a sensitive issue that you need "backup" on. You helped the lad when he needed it, now yeh have to work da follow-up, so the boy gets all that religious and family information and support he needs. Do you know the boy's dad? Is he easy to approach? How about your SM? Would he be cool with you talkin' to him about this? All yeh want is a gentle tipoff to the boy's dad that it's time to have the "birds and the bees" talk. No need to go into specifics, just that "your son had questions, and it's a good time for you to give him some dad-time." That can be a good thing to add to your answer if it ever came up again, eh? After you explain to the boy that it's natural and not goin' to kill him and that men go through it, let him know it's something it's good to ask his dad more about. Scout Salute to yeh, though! I think you're an outstanding SPL to care so much about your guys, and to be there for 'em. Beavah

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/061509camper_kidnapped Yah, hmmmm. What a nightmare. Recorded on cell phone video no less. B

Yah, I passed kenk's questions along to a local SM whose troop is mostly on da lightweight gear thing. Here are the responses (edited for brevity) When lightweight gear troops camp, what cookware do you use? What kind of pots/pans do you use? We use aluminum backpacking-style cookware, though a bit larger than the two-person stuff you see in backpack-only shops. Not really much different from what we used to have, except that we don't have the big 10-quart pots anymore. Do you bring along any foods that need to be kept cold (milk, eggs, cheese, meats)? Sure, in the fall/winter/early spring without a cooler, and in summer for canoe or car-camping. It's easy for each patrol to have a small cooler. You don't need to keep eggs or cheese cold, so if you cook by patrol the coolers can be real small. Do lightweight troops still use the 3-bucket washing/sanitizing method? No, we switched when we got some of our adults to do LNT training. Other methods are just as safe, easier, faster, and more responsible. Do the lightweight troops use gas lanterns? Probably not. We still have a couple left over. About the only time they're used is summer camp, if then. The small LED lanterns these days are cheaper, safer, and almost as bright. The kids use those most of the time. Or they just wear headlamps. Do you bring along an axe? I suspect you need to in order for boys complete Second Class requirement 2c & 2d? Sure, when it's appropriate. Do you build campfires? If there is such a concern about the scars left by a patrol box, I would suspect campfires would be completely out of the question. Then again, how do the boys complete Second Class requirement 2f & 2g? It's tougher and tougher with fire bans and wood transport bans. We still have fires, but I think we've become more responsible about them. Do lightweight troops ever use dutch ovens? I would suspect not. That's kind of a shame. Our boys really enjoy using dutch ovens. I think our boys do a LOT more cooking now than they did. Heavy gear means heavy, production-style cooking. The lightweight stuff makes it easy to cook in small groups by patrol. More kids get experience cooking all kinds of ways, not just dutch-oven baking. There are lots of ways to bake, too, not just big cast-iron dutch ovens. Some boys use reflector ovens, some use stove bake kits, some use stoves with top-heat coals. Older scouts can whip up a pie, cobbler, or chicken cordon blue just fine. In fact, they're faster with less cleanup than the DO's. We still have the cast iron ovens, but they're being used less and less.

This man isn't going to lead. PERIOD. At this point the goal is to let him save some face for his son's sake. So the boy stays in Scouting. Yah, some guys just aren't cut out for leadin' groups of kids, eh? Either by their own behavior or by how they approach workin' with children. On da flipside, there's nary an adult leader who doesn't generate some parent complaints. I've also sadly been around well-off folks who are more apt to find fault with working-class leaders, and even a few who are apt to find fault with leaders of different religious or ethnic background. If yeh really have one of da former, and other people really recognize it, then a wise CC or COR will talk to 'em about how much they need help in the adult Quartermaster position (keepin' the trailer in repair!) or some other such task that uses the fellow for his talents but keeps him out of the kids' way. Ultimately at the point when you tell a parent he/she is not welcome on events you're makin' a decision to lose the kid. It's a rare parent who will accept that, eh? If there are shorter steps, they're worth pursuing. Beavah

Anytime a leader puts his hands on a Scout, even in self defense, a report needs to be made toe the SE and/or Police. That is in YPT. The leader is to be removed from scouting pendign further investigation. No, that's not true, eh? In fact it would be a tom-fool way to run a youth program. There are all sorts of reasons to put hands on a Scout, some involvin' safety, some accidental, some bein' gestures that are misinterpreted, some bein' affectionate, some being mildly out of place but innocent. We're getting a bit carried away with our self-righteous indignation, and forgettin' our responsibility to each other as fellow scouters and people of character and integrity. And we're missin' that all we have are da suspicions of one dad passing along hearsay rumors because he is annoyed by an individual incident that involved his kid. Apparently this fellow's behavior has been so bad that no other leaders in the troop are aware of it. When yeh have a problem with a fellow, you approach the fellow in private and talk about it. As a parent, or fellow leader. That's where yeh start, mate. Saves yeh the embarrassment of complainin' about a flask that contains sweet tea used to wash down real medicine. Same rule applies when the issue comes to the attention of the SM. The first step is the SM pulls the gent aside and reminds him of the no alcohol rule, and the troop's expectations in terms of conduct. If the SM gets an acknowledgment or apology, everything's good, eh? Sometimes folks don't know, or get tired, or whatever. If the SM gets an astonished or angry denial, that's information, too, eh? One that might call for some discussion with da family as well. If it continues and is observed by the SM and other people, then da SM and CC have a more formal meeting with the fellow to set down rules, and make it clear his continued participation with his son on trips is contingent on his compliance. Only after that do yeh move more formally on removal. And there should be a corollary here too, eh? A family that falsely or exaggeratedly accuses an adult leader of serious wrongdoing should be given the same treatment. Up to and including removal. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

JJJJ, you're an imposter. You obviously aren't a Boy Scouter, or you'd know that the SM runnin' that kind of show is contrary to how we use youth leadership and teach values in Scouting. Yah, it's best to remember that our goal isn't to keep kids from all temptation by settin' up a mess of adult-regulated and run checkout systems and the like, eh? Our goal is to teach kids how to make ethical choices in their lives. To do that, they need to be able to make choices. My guess is da same as other folks'. This troop's PLC didn't buy into this restriction, it was somethin' put in a parent mailing by an adult. So boys did what boys do, same as they would with a checkout system. If we must run these events, it's best to do it as tonys describes, eh? Where the kids set the rules in collaboration with the SM, and are responsible to each other to enforce 'em. Beavah

So does this apply to leaders. Maybe. No. Never. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act is a law governing medical providers and insurers. It does not apply to Scouting volunteers or units at all. And, generally speaking, the forms are meaningless if a parent/legal guardian is present in person. B

Yah, agree, HIPAA does not apply. My feelin' with regards to youth medical conditions in a Boy Scout Troop is that knowing about them and being prepared to handle them is critical for safety. So I encourage units to inform every adult leader as well as senior youth leaders where appropriate. The boys like as not have more first aid trainin' than some adults, and they're going to catch issues quicker if they know what's up. It's rare that boys really have "privacy issue" conditions. From cancer to ADHD, the boys tend to tell their friends anyways. Adult health issues can be more sensitive. Still, I think yeh don't get a right to privacy when you're relyin' on the rest of the group in a remote wilderness environment. All the other adults should know, as well as key youth leaders. In fact, I'd consider it negligent and irresponsible if an outdoor program did not inform all of its leaders of the medical conditions of everyone on the trip. I think that's where the real "potential liability" is. A good practice is to have the forms reviewed by a medical professional on the committee, and then summaries prepared for all the leaders. Keep the originals on file, and make copies that are carried on every outing along with permission to treat documents. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, da most important thing is to set aside money for youth and adult leader trainin'. BSA stuff, for sure. Also look at Leave No Trace Trainer, ACA Canoe training, Wilderness First Aid, a backpackin' course from your local REI or college, a PTC course... whatever yeh have in your area or can get to. The more the adults know/learn, the more comfortable they'll be with kids in the woods and the more diverse your program will be. After that, I think if you're comfortable with it you should strongly consider goin' the lightweight route that CA_Scouter and others suggest, eh? I can outfit an entire new troop for what some troops pay for their trailer in fixed and variable costs. And da new troop will be backpackin' and paddlin' and sailin' and climbin', not tied to cub scout trailer camping. But yeh have to be comfortable with that, or willing to be the old dog who learns new tricks, eh? While the kids adapt just fine, lots of adults scream bloody murder if they're separated from their 200 lb 5-room tents and 10-inch air mattresses. Yeh have to have some adventurous adults who are fit enough to sleep on the ground, eh? Not every unit does. If you do, it can work great, and it can help keep da hovercraft parents away . Beavah

Exposure? Violations? With all da angst this stuff seems to be generatin' you'd have thunk that we were talkin' about some other kind of "exposure" and "violation" than an animated video game, eh? I reckon we're all in agreement that da troop shouldn't have promised that they'd supervise game ratings if they weren't able to do that effectively. At the same time, I know we advertise Scouting as clean, wholesome fun for boys. And it is! But that doesn't mean darling little Johnny isn't going to be "exposed" to his tentmate occasionally outing with a four-letter word when the tent is leakin' or the Raccoon visits in the middle of the night. It's a bit over the top to start thinkin' that such "exposure" to a "violation" of the 11th point of the Law is going to be something that will ruin a poor innocent adolescent for life. Scoutin' is good for boys, and teaches 'em good morals and values. But the lads are going to be "exposed" to other boys and other families, and other boys are goin' to act like other boys, eh? Animated cartoon violence might not be somethin' to encourage or seek out, but 15 minutes of "exposure" isn't goin' to ruin a lad for life. Boys are boys, eh? God doesn't make 'em in "fragile." Beavah

On one hand, if this is an attempt to beef up the "boy scout skills" aspect of the Webelos program... On the other hand, if this is an attempt to dumb down the actual boy scouting program... Yah, exactly. Unfortunately, da consequence of a policy is often not what da authors intended, eh? I personally like the idea of beefin' up the webelos camping and skills requirements. That program really needs it. Problem is that requires changin' the cub campin' rules, revising Baloo, more adult trainin' and all that. Takes work to do it well, eh? Maybe even somethin' like a Tenderfoot BOR has to be conducted at a troop campout supervised by troop boys and adults who double-check on skills and run the BOR. That might push packs and troops to work more closely together, and guarantee proper learning. But it's hard, eh? The natural thing for people to do is to take the easiest way. And that pretty much means that da result without a lot of effort will be for stuff to be dumbed down. As to the rest, I'd much rather see 'em move the "Family Life" requirements into Cub Scouting/Webelos and use that badge's spot for Cooking, eh? Know a few CO's that would be delighted to charter a middle school girls program on da BSA model, as long as we don't add another 20 pages to G2SS because we're all worried about the little darlings. GSUSA has largely abandoned middle school and older girls interested in outdoor adventure, in part for that reason. Beavah

Yah, Eamonn, I am never offerin' advice on an anonymous internet forum that crosses myriad jurisdictional boundaries in its participation, eh? So everything is just an informed and reasonable opinion. You're welcome to believe that da laws in your state prohibit community foundations and the United Way (which exist solely to transfer charitable donations to other entities). I reckon you're welcome to believe in Martians too, eh? ------ Yah, FScouter, the antecedent to the implied indefinite article in "[that's] Just da right thing to do, eh?" was the previous paragraph - "if I were an adult workin' with him I'd help him by doing what I could to further enable tax-deductible donations rather than try to get in his face over technicalities most adults don't understand." Are yeh really saying that you think the right thing to do is to get in the boy's face over being "untrustworthy" rather than help him? ------ Anyway, us3packrats, why don't yeh tell us who the CO is and who the boy's project is for, and then we can give yeh a real answer and stop da nattering nabobs of negativity? Beavah

Welcome to da forums, packbrain. The only requirements here are Kindness and Wisdom. Yeh gather information and do what's in the long-term best interest of the lad, not what's in a book or what some trainer says who doesn't know the lad. It may very well be that the best choice is to have him repeat da year in Cubs and re-earn his rank. That would help him really develop friendships within his new grade, which will be hugely important for him to do quickly and successfully. Da other thing is that as an "experienced" Wolf or Bear or whatever, his confidence in Scouting will be increased and he'll be able to stand out and shine among his new peers. That could be a very positive thing, especially if yeh have a DL who will use him as a helper and example, recognizing his knowledge. It may be that da best choice is to have him continue with his current den if he's already been very successful in scouting. In that case, repeatin' a year might feel dull, and yeh might be taking away an important success from the boy, when he needs somethin' to be successful at. Talk to the parents, and the DL, and the boy, and think about who this boy is, eh? Young for his grade? A bit immature? Doesn't stand out in his cub work? ... or ... old for his grade, mature but with a learnin' disability that affects only his school work not his scouting? Generally speakin', boys spend a lot of time in school, and their relationships at that age are goin' to revolve around their school classmates. Since relationships are far more important than badges, I think I'd lean more toward puttin' him in a den with his new classmates, all else bein' equal. Beavah

Sorry Beavah, while I'm not an expert on taxes and I haven't talked this one over with my accountant, my gut feeling tells me that what you posted isn't right. Which version of "right"? What I posted in da last paragraph was my speculation over what is morally right and most honest, eh? The intent of the donor is usually to give to help a lad with his Scouting activity to earn Eagle Scout. That is a charitable purpose which is definitely within the intent of the law. Can I imagine circumstances in which someone could argue that is technically improper? Yah, sure. I get paid to do that sometimes, eh? One might imagine a for-profit CO and a ©(7) beneficiary and a donation greater than $250, and the local council refuses to acknowledge/accept it on behalf of scouting because someone has a burr in their saddle. But that's really stretchin' it, eh? You'd be hard-pressed to find any real-life cases like that. More to the point, our role should be to enable and encourage charitable donations to scouting and to others. Da only reason to look at technical objections should be so that we can be Helpful - and find ways around any stumblin' blocks so as to enable good acts. Again, there's nothing at all improper about accepting a scouting donation and applying it to an Eagle project. That's what churches and other charities do every day, eh? They accept donations and give the money to the poor or other needy causes. Not only is there nothing wrong with doing so, in most Eagle projects that is the clear intent of the donor which we are legally and morally bound to honor. And in most cases da amounts we're talkin' about are immaterial. So I think this lad is doin' just fine, and if I were an adult workin' with him I'd help him by doing what I could to further enable tax-deductible donations rather than try to get in his face over technicalities most adults don't understand. Just da right thing to do, eh? Beavah

Yah, I reckon the lad was doing his best, eh? And odds are he is right. Generally speakin', da rules for Eagle projects pretty much limit them to being done for a tax-exempt entity. While there are a few cases where the beneficiary isn't a charitable organization (one might consider doing something for a CO like da Elks who I believe are a ©(7) not a ©(3)), those are goin' to be fairly rare. So don't beat on the poor lad too hard or too fast! He was probably right, and if he wasn't right it was an honest mistake made by most adult laymen. Chances are da donation amounts are so small and the nature of the thing so ambiguous that da average IRS auditor isn't even goin' to question it. Eagle projects are a funny thing, eh? By and large, I think da intent of the donor is to support a boy in his Scouting activity, not to support the project beneficiary. So in most cases, I believe da most proper way to proceed is to treat such donations as scouting donations, which should be tax deductible. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Or, alternately, some troops mix the ages of their patrols so the older boys are leading the patrols in whatever da patrol is doing during the meeting.

It is fairly easy for a unit to obtain their own EIN. It can even be done online at the IRS. Fairly easy, but not always prudent, eh? By applying for an EIN you are in essence telling da bank and da IRS that you are operating as an unincorporated association. That's a very different thing than being a youth program of an incorporated 501©(3) NFP (insulated by the corporation, protected by that corporation's insurance, with a charitable determination on the books). Most PTAs these days are incorporated, with their own insurance through the national PTA. Yeh want that insulation and protection if it's available to you. And if your receipts are more than $5K per year (quite possible in a larger pack), yeh want that tax-exempt determination. I see no reason to need your PTA's EIN for a Pack Picnic unless you are soliciting donations of $75 and over. Even then, per the IRS, donors of $75 and over must be given a written acknowledgment from the charitable organization, which in your case is the PTA - NOT the Pack. I think yeh mean $250, not $75. And the pack (treasurer or CC or Cubmaster) as part of da PTA can certainly be designated as agent for issuing acknowledgment letters. In fact, that's a nice way to go, since the donors probably know the Cubmaster rather than the PTA president. Unless the pack has a six-figure endowment fund or pays its Cubmaster, this really isn't a big deal. Biggest issue is just what Pack212Scouter mentions, eh? Yeh want to make sure the PTA officers understand the relationship so they don't get a perception that you're tryin' to do something bad at their expense. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Are yeh asking because you're the donor? Generally speakin', the scout shouldn't be giving tax advice, eh? Whether or not to claim a deduction is the donor's choice and the donor's burden of justifyin' to the IRS. There are all kinds of ways of handlin' this if you're a knowledgeable adult workin' with the lad. A 501©(3) Chartered Organization certainly can accept the donation earmarked to a boy's project, and transfer it to the materials or work being done for an external organization consistent with its mission. The folks in the unit who act as agents for the CO in receiving such donations and making disbursements for its scouting program can (and should) be empowered to do that (i.e. troop treasurer, committee...). The benefiting agency if it is a 501©(3) can also acknowledge the gift toward the service being done for its programs. But unless the donation is greater than $250 in cash or cash equivalents, there's really nuthin' for the boy or either group to do besides write a thank you. Over $250, whichever agency chooses to should write a receipt acceptable to the IRS. Again, an authorized agent of either da CO or the benefiting agency can do that, based on the scout's record-keeping. Beavah