Beavah

JROTC round these parts is treated with respect, when it's offered. Isn't present in that many schools. Sea Scoutin' uniforms seem to get more buy-in, but they're also required. Camo and BDU's kids tend to wear on their own in these parts, leastways once you get out of the bigger cities. I think we're misjudgin' kids if we think it's about the Oath and Law. My experience is that kids who aren't in scouts don't know a thing about the oath & law, so it's not their perception of those things that keeps 'em away. Their perception of scouting is the uniform, cub scout arts and crafts, little kid campfire skits and followin' goofy adults. In terms of promises, I think most boys outside of scouting would tell you that they think highly of keepin' promises and commitments to their friends. B

Very few youth can stand the thought of being good, whether the term is "being square" "being a goody goody two shoes", or even the ever popular "What are you, a Boy Scout?" has never been exactly a compliment. Yah, backin' up here a bit. I was struck by OGE's comment above. What do the rest of you think? I think OGE might be showin' his age. What he describes might have sort of been true back in the day, though I'm not sure if even that isn't lookin' backward through thick bifocals and a few too many movies. I think boys are perfectly happy to be perceived as good, if good is Mel Gibson in the Patriot or Harry Potter or Master Chief in Halo. Heck, these days boys and girls are even proud to be geeks, if bein' a geek means being like da Mythbusters or those guys who program cool video games. Like boys everywhere, they want to be good at things... they'll spend hours tryin' to master a skateboard move, and take a lot of bruises in the process. They also tend to be proud of their positive accomplishments, and pretty decent to folks. Takin' care of their friends, standing up to bullies, all that is pretty cool. Give 'em a sense of honor and an evil to fight against, whether real-world or online, and they'll rise to the occasion every time. What boys don't want is to be weak. To go runnin' off to adults to solve your problems, or to be a kiss-a** or brown-noser to arbitrary authority. It's not bein' good that's a problem, it's being a wimp. Problem is, scouting and the scout uniform projects "weak" to their friends. Hangin' out with fat old men and wearin' a silly shirt and scarf because an adult made you. I reckon BSA uniformin' is also strongly associated with little-kid cub scouting in their minds, and no teen wants to be perceived to be a little kid. I reckon if our uniform and our program projected a bit more Mel Gibson and a bit less 2nd grade space derby and momma's boy we'd do better with it. Should be somethin' yeh put on to do battle and tackle obstacles, not somethin' yeh put on to get patted on the head by grandpa. I agree with Brent that within a troop run well, scouts will meet expectations that are set, eh? I don't think uniforms drive boys away. I do worry a bit, though, about the lads who choose not to even consider scoutin'. I think da uniform may keep many from givin' us a try in the first place. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I'd say yeh start with more adventurous troop trips, eh? Something that whets their appetite. Backpackin' in to an interesting or fun location, canoeing, sailing, climbing, whatever. Like Lisabob says, consider those things your adults are willing to support. Once the boys get a taste for it and start to realize they can do it, then yeh just seed the idea of "wouldn't it be cool if we could go sailin' and scuba-diving for a whole week?" or "do you think you guys are tough enough to do a really hard, adventurous canoe trek?" Leave some pamphlets around. I think for a young group, da biggest thing is for the adults not to rain on the parade at the start. Don't start raisin' objections or problems. Kids are used to adults raisin' objections as a form of adult lecture - it's just a way for an adult to say "no." They'll give up on yeh. Instead, enthuse and enable, eh? Yeh can deal with the challenges down the road apace. Beavah

Yah, rkfrance, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time lookin' for wording, eh? You, the parents, and da committee are all on the same page. So yeh do what's right for the lad's personal growth. He can voluntarily admit his lapses and opt out of a BOR, his PL can tell him no BOR, his parents could tell him no BOR, you can tell him no BOR, the CC can tell him no BOR, or the Committee can hold a BOR in the way J-in-KC suggests and tell him no advancement and give him a list of things and a timetable to address 'em. Which one is right for this boy? Whichever one feels most personal that you're pretty sure will get the points across that you need him to learn. I think the best way to think about it sometimes is "Who is the boy least willing to disappoint?" or "Who's approval does he care most about?" Whoever that is should be the one who expresses their disappointment, then gives him da opportunity to prove himself over the comin' months. My guess is it probably isn't the committee. My guess is it's the PL and/or the SM. In that case, they should do the conference, eh? I think in most cases yeh save the committee for backup when a lad isn't "getting it" and needs a more official response to make him straighten up and fly right. Just MHO, though. Choose whichever way yeh think feels right for this lad. And good job to yeh on keepin' high expectations and communicatin' well with da parents and CC! Beavah

The ACLU just can't decide to sue! Some one has to come to them and request them to take a case. Right???? Yah, sorry evmori. Didn't mean to ignore your original question. No, the ACLU can indeed decide to sue on its own if it believes it has standing in the case to do so. There have been a number of important cases where da ACLU has been lead plaintiff. In other cases as GW points out, if da ACLU has an interest in pursuin' a case, they will go out and recruit a client to be plaintiff. Essentially they'll go look for a sympathetic person who has been affected by the law, and provide free representation to pursue a case in their name. In still other cases, a client will approach them with a case of interest. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

but it probably could have been pursued like the WInkler case, which I think was brought on the behalf of Illinois/Chicago taxpayers against the Chicago school board. Da trend in court rulings increasingly is to dismiss such cases for lack of standing. Rightly so, IMO. Taxpayers have recourse through da ballot box, they do not have standing to raise a civil complaint solely on the basis of being taxpayers. Beavah

Yah, sometimes da ex-military folks have a hard time transitioning to the relative collaboration and chaos of runnin' a youth program like Scouting. Most often I've found 'em to be the ones who also weren't that well respected during their service, and perhaps didn't move up da chain as fast as some others. Always best to think long and hard about a man or woman before you consider 'em for Scoutmaster. John-in-KC's got it right, the CC and da ASMs have to sit with the man, either separately or together. If I might suggest, the feedback needs to be blunt. Guys like this are straightforward types, eh? They don't get subtle. Then yeh see where it goes, eh? If the fellow acknowledges the problem, promises to do better, goes off to do Thorns & Roses with the youth and does a good job in front of them of listening to 'em and admitting spots where he erred, I think that's fine. Yeh just put in place mechanisms for tight observation and feedback for a while. If the fellow doesn't acknowledge the problem, or his response is only half-hearted or he doesn't listen well to the ASMs or boys, then yeh might have to make a change. I wouldn't do it on the spot, I'd think about it some and leave a gap for emotions to die down, and I'd spend some time figurin' out how to present that to him and the parents and boys in a way that's not threatening. Changin' a SM mid-stride has all kinds of potential for destructive conflict, eh? Do yeh have someone else who is ready to step up? Beavah

Now, if I were to guess, I'd bet that yeh didn't ask da question because your CC is stepping down in three months and you're tryin' to set up da best process to find his/her successor, eh? My guess is yeh feel someone hijacked da process in your unit and yeh feel that you now have a problem with da CC. Scoutin' is a great program except for da behavior of the adults. Would yeh like to share what's goin' on? Maybe we can offer some perspective from afar. Beavah

Yah, sure. Da Chartered Organization Representative or Institution Head sign a BSA Adult Application and submit it to da local council office. That's the only act which makes it "official." In terms of how the selection is made, that's goin' to depend on the Chartered Organization and the dynamics of each troop, eh? There is no one official way. The IH can simply appoint a person (like a religious "call"), the committee can vote, or I suppose yeh can figure out who didn't come to the meeting and appoint him! There is a unit of supplemental training which describes a recommended procedure for a unit to use in recruiting and selecting adult leadership positions including Committee Chair. It is not required, but yeh might find it helpful. See http://scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/SelectingQualityLeaders.aspx The short version is that 1) You brief the Chartered Organization 2) The CO / COR forms a Steering Committee (which can be da troop committee as a whole in a small unit). 3) The Steering Committee identifies prospects, vets prospects, and decides on who the top choice is, the second choice, etc. 4) The Steering Committee meets with da candidate(s) and tries to talk da poor fool into it . 5) Da Steering Committee does reference checks, criminal background checks, and other vetting of the applicant, then submits the application to the CO for their review and approval. Da CO/COR may do whatever they feel is appropriate. 6) The application is forwarded to the council for their review and approval. 7) Yeh sign the person up for training! Hope that helps, Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... Xlpanel, yeh strike me as a teenager who likes to argue. I understand that. Used to be one myself, back when my dad hunted woolly mammoths. It's really hard to address anything yeh write, because your understandin' of matters of law and propriety and such seems pretty limited. No easy spot to begin, eh? You're entirely right of course. Da media by and large doesn't do a great job. Adults aren't always right. There's always different perspectives and sides to any story. Congratulations, you've made it half way to a mature understanding of the world! All da simplistic right and wrong stuff adults taught you when you were a little kid was just that - simplistic, and often wrong, at least in the details. Yeh have to rebel and argue against that stuff to grow up. Second half of growin' up is to gain enough experience with da world that you begin to see the real patterns and trends that affect it, eh? Instead of spoutin' black and white, or arguin' against black and white, yeh begin to understand that there is at least light and dark. Da world is complimicated, and we don't always get it right, so we should be open-minded and prepared to adjust as we get new information. At the same time, that doesn't mean that there aren't good and bad choices, or that we shouldn't make any judgments at all. In fact, it's that quest for what's right, and for better ways of thinkin' and actin' that makes it fun. At that point, a mature understanding lets us understand why we were taught simplistic black and white when we were young and that it really wasn't all wrong. And we understand where our rebellion and argumentiveness as a teenager had a sound basis but was also overblown and too simplistic and judgmental itself. I wish yeh the best on da second half of your journey to intellectual maturity. Beavah

It is about time we taught kids that you just don't do whatever you please all the time. Yah, then the kids can teach us that yeh just don't do whatever yeh want as adults all the time. They can say, "hey, those guys are uptight jerks. Who needs it? I can go to a private camp in da summer that's more fun, I can go rock climbin' at the local gym with their youth program and mountain bikin' with my friends and camping with da school biology club and it's more fun." Then it'll be about time we spent wringin' our hands about servin' fewer and fewer youth, and camps closing, eh? I reckon it's possible to lead lads to uniformin', if yeh think it's a good use of time and energy. I don't reckon there's any way to push 'em into it. Not without losin' kids we want. And not without losin' methods we feel are at least as important. Beavah

The way I look at it, whether its The Uniform Method or Leave No Trace, no two units will do it the exact same way, and while we may all wish everyone did things our/the right way, we may just have to accept the uniqueness that shapes ourselves and the units we serve Interestin'. To my mind, one is an external ethic that's common to all good citizens. Like voting responsibly. Somethin' that every citizen should do, regardless of whether or not they're in Scoutin'. The other is an internal method. One technique out of many that we use to try to teach some boys something within Scoutin', but which really doesn't apply to other folks. That's a big difference, eh? Of course it may just be that both of 'em are really the same. They're both things where us old folks by and large can't be taught new tricks, and won't listen to the kids, the experts, the land managers, or anybody else. Beavah

Yah, BA's is a great way to go, eh? And in a troop with a well-developed patrol method da boys will execute that on their own without even any of our coachin'. Takes some finesse if you're buildin' toward that, because the most natural thing in the world is for his patrol mates to just roll their eyes and do this boy's work, so that they can get to their activity. And that's partly good patrol spirit, eh? We want kids to support their patrol members who are havin' a hard time on any particular day. We just don't want 'em doin' it for the one boy who "takes advantage." One of the things that's true is that for first-year boys, there's not yet a lot of deeper respect and friendship with other patrol members and youth leaders. So those young lads can resist da peer pressure from the others more than others. They're also not goin' to be used to takin' "orders" from other youth. That's where yeh need some adult back-up. Beavah

Yah, in that setup, yeh have to imagine what's good "leadership" for a new 11-year-old, eh? It ain't goin' to be planning a backpack expedition from scratch. More likely, it's goin' to actually make it through cooking a good hearty pasta meal on their own. So think in terms of "leadership" for simple camp tasks in the Tenderfoot / 2nd Class skill set. Doin' flags on their own. Treatin' each other's tick bite on their own. Just gettin' a group of guys that age to clean up after a meal as an efficient team is a big "youth leadership" victory, eh? In the meantime, you stay the example of a good bigger picture leader. A big change is goin' to happen then in year two, when yeh have new boys joining and your current lads become the experienced hands. That's da natural point where those older guys start to step up, eh? Now they have someone who knows less than they do to help out, and as they see that and feel confident, they'll start to step into other leadership roles. Yeh move 'em up to First Class and yeh start to treat 'em as assistant leaders. Still not planning whole outings, but perhaps planning and leadin' the hiking portion. Year three, when yeh get another round of new guys in, is when those first guys are startin' to get ready to stand up as full fledged PL's. Startin' to plan & lead whole outings, at least the ones they've done before, usin' their second-year-guys as assistants. You're still goin' to be providin' some structure to the overall year planning and PLC. Year four is when you'll have guys really movin' into the SPL/PLC/yearly planning calendar type stuff on their own. So for right now, your goal should be to get 'em comfortable and confident with their basic camping skills and "leading" startin' the fire and cookin' breakfast and figurin' out where they are on a map and what turn to take. Those are big victories for a group of kids who have never done 'em before. Beavah

Scout Salute! Two. Yah, nice job, CA. Takes real self control and restraint for us adults to be da strong, silent types willing to hike a few miles in the wrong direction. Now that you've seen that they can do it, your homework is to pick some other reasonably sized trip and let 'em hike on their own. Beavah

Yah, I'm with Lisabob. Seen this a bunch, eh? Is the boy an only child so home life revolves around him, too? Usually these lads are fairly bright. To my mind da things to do are these: 1) Don't get angry or impatient. These are part of da way he's learned to manipulate you, eh? Impatient people end up doin' the task themselves, or letting him by with less. Angry people vent their spleen, but feel the lecture / shouting is a valid substitute for him really doin' the work. 2) Know what things he really likes to do, what he values. Dat's your leverage. 3) Set up clear cause-and-effect consequences, and stick to them like they are fundamental, immutable laws of nature. If you don't clean the pot, yeh don't get to do anything else until you do. If yeh don't sweep the floor, yeh don't get to do your favorite thing. No anger, no impatience, just da immutable law of the universe. No lectures about cause & effect, no contracts, no rules sheets, no threats. Like gravity. Cause and effect. Kids learn all about gravity because it's consistent and yeh can't argue with it. 4) Be prepared in the beginning, eh? The lad is goin' to make the stubbornest mule seem docile. If yeh turn your back for a moment he's goin' to escape. If there's a "weak link" adult or youth leader he's goin' to exploit it. Get everyone on the same page, and be prepared for a few "epic battles" over dirty dishes or whatnot that end in tears and the most grudging compliance. You're goin' to have to be prepared to have one or two adults dealin' with him full time for a day or two. 5) Be ready with the carrot. When he's makin' real progress, be effusive in your praise and get him some minor special privilege. 6) Whatever yeh do, don't get to thinkin' that he's a Lazy Toad or whatnot, it'll steer you off course. The boy is a good kid. Make sure he knows that you see him that way. He's just a good kid who isn't walkin' on his own yet because in his home life, he wins arguments with gravity. Not a bad kid, just an odd behavior. Teach him in scouts that he can't argue with gravity, and pretty soon he'll get up on his feet and be walkin'. Summer camp is da best time to do this, eh? Because he can't just hold out until he gets home. But yeh can make it work on regular two-day weekend outings if yeh start right at the beginnin' and go for smaller victories. Beavah Beavah

The guides loved it as it gave them steady work during the week. Yah, this is a good point, eh? A lot of outfitters would love a steady thing during weekdays. Fairly easy for a council camp to set up that kind of relationship if yeh have the natural resources for it in the area. BTW, no personal shot intended, eisley. Sorry if it came off that way. Just that I've seen so many times when policy makers and politicians get into the "We must do something!" mentality, eh? If yeh think there's a real issue in your council for some reason (you've had a series of incidents or near-misses perhaps?) then I'd encourage you to go recruit some local professional guides and a few of your council's scouters who have real background in whitewater and let them "think deeply" about the matter. Yeh can probably even get guys like Charlie Walbridge to come out and consult if yeh call 'em up and ask. Dependin' on where you're at, you folks get a lot of water and flood-stage stuff in da Sierras, so I'd expect most of your scouters who are inclined to do such trips are pretty aware of things. If yeh haven't had any particular problems in your council, I'm not sure I'd worry about it beyond some low-grade education endeavors. Send out the AW safety code once a year, with some reminders about springtime river levels and a bit of beta on good outfitters to work with and good rivers to consider for different kinds of groups. Add some supplemental stuff into your Safety Afloat presentations. Thinkin' about Wayne's input, since yeh have local outfitters, you might call some of 'em up and ask if they've seen any "issues" with scout trips. You can either back-check your tour permits to have UC's talk to anybody who was a problem, or you can ask da outfitters to help yeh address some preventive education to your RT's and such. Most outfitters I know would be happy to run a short-form "intro to guiding" thing if you ask. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yeh can also check out the American Whitewater Safety Code at http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/do-op/id/safety:start Honestly, eisley, da last thing I'd want to see is someone with little whitewater experience tryin' to set rules for a council because they happen to be on a committee. Da world would be a much better place, and G2SS would be a much better document, if people limited their rulemaking to areas where they had real expertise. Beavah

Nah, no such requirement for units. That's a NCS requirement for council-run summer camps and bases. People are always gettin' confused by the difference in standards between units and councils. If they don't believe yeh, ask 'em how big they think da Philmont tents are . Beavah

Nobody runs three oar deal NOBODY Yah, I'm sorry Wayne. I might be misunderstandin', but are you really claimin' that everyone portages Three Oar Deal? I don't think so. I think everyone runs it right and avoids da hole at these water levels. Which then raises the possibility that someone could get off line. Or fall out upstream and get swept by the main flow into the hydraulic. Or.... And I know the feature becomes less hazardous and eventually goes away at lower water. So perhaps da issue may just be that they screwed up on the last run. More likely to my mind is that some BSA units don't understand da whole idea of flow rate. I bet since you and your folks are on the river a lot, you could do some of our troops a good turn just by volunteering to give them an informal briefing before they put in. "At this water level, Kahuna is fun but Three Oar Deal is dangerous and yeh have to stay right." I'm sure like any guide you can make that fun and entertaining with a point. When I see folks puttin' on a river that shouldn't (college kids are most common), that's what I do. Yeh have to be friendly and non-threatenin', but they'll listen and think about it. Even a gentle comment about "gee, your guys really look under-equipped for this cold water. We wouldn't be comfortable takin' guys out like that" will stay with 'em. They might run anyway, but they'll remember for next time. We'll keep workin' da problem on our side, but as I mentioned off-line there are some institutional challenges. And we're just so big, eh? Just try to get a million and a half people to do anything, even without da added challenges. Guide services have it easy. They're small, they can be selective about hiring and who they keep, they've got guys full time for trainin', and they can make rules specific to the few rivers that they use. We don't have those luxuries. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

On the other hand, my son spent a week at Y Camp last year doing a "thrills & chills" program that was pretty similar to a typical BSA COPE program. Yah, it's hard to make generalizations, eh? But if I were to, I'd say that YMCA camps have made a much bigger capital investment in high ropes type courses than BSA camps. We tend to do things on the cheap. That might be a lesson for camps that are developin' climbing towers/walls as well. Lisabob, if I may ask... how does your son's YMCA camp fee compare to what his BSA camp cost would have been? B

Yah, I'm not sure if Wayne said he was an 18-year-old guide or a guide of 18 years experience. The second article is interestin', eh? It does look like they were deliberately running the hole at Three Oar Deal instead of takin' the inside of the turn around the bend to avoid it. That's a poor choice with kids. They might have been used to bein' on the river at lower water. Lack of proper gear is a big concern too? That water is cold. Havin' a whole parcel of shivering kids and adults around I'm sure only added to the confusion of the scene for the rescuers who were tryin' to help, and may be why Wayne didn't get da facts right. Yeh have to imagine the confusion at such a scene. We shouldn't be too quick to dismiss some legitimate concerns. At the same time a 50-year-old somewhat overweight man swimming a cold-water hole at the end of a long day... might not be a drowning at all, eh? If I'm goin' to go from heart failure, doin' it havin' fun on a river is as good a way as any. Just not with kids around. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

You act differently because you are uniformed. People treat you differently because you are uniformed. Yah, dat's true, eh? In the kids' lives, they act differently. Among non-scout peers, they hide. People treat 'em differently too. They make fun of 'em. I suppose that you can argue that wearing clothes that make you the object of ridicule is character-building, but I don't see it as a great recruiting technique. It's certainly true that within a troop it's possible, with da right adults, to develop a culture of uniformin', and pride in the uniform. It just won't carry over to their life outside da troop. I'm also not really sure that the sports uniform analogy is apt. Around here, boys mostly shed their uniforms as soon as practice or a game is done. And I don't know many sports uniforms that are all ornamented with patches and gewgaws. I am sure that da uniform does not act as an "equalizer." As someone mentioned, at its current cost it separates out lower-income kids who can't afford it (or can't afford new, properly fitted stuff). I'm a fan of da uniform as an adult. I like the look, at least when it's worn by kids (I think overweight bespangled adults look a bit foolish). I think it teaches somethin' about ceremony and discipline. I think if it's worn, it should be worn correctly. I hate seein' blue jeans with a uniform shirt. Just a pet peeve. I can't say I really care much about da socks, though. Yah, then I listen to da kids, eh? When I listen to them, I conclude that it's just an adult thing. We'd be better off with a major makeover, more along the lines of a range of BSA-branded adventure clothing. I confess I think it would be really cool if what identified 'em as scouts was something that they'd happily wear in school or on their way to/from soccer practice. I reckon that's a better choice than lookin' spiffy to the over-50 crowd watchin' a parade. Beavah

Interestin'. I can't say I honestly know what da industry trends are, but if I were to guess I'd say they were going the same way as your camp is. COPE and other challenge course activities are adult run experiences, often used by schools and management training seminars. I wonder if Kudu will jump in and tell us they're typical Management Training Wood Badge "high adventure." Kids these days are a bit more sophisticated and independent I reckon. They want their high adventure experiences to be more open-ended, where their choices and interactions with da environment matter more. A zip line is just a ride, eh? Once you overcome your fear and do it a few times. A climb involves making all kinds of choices along the way, and yeh get to practice and get better as you figure it out. Like a video game, eh? Have yeh watched the adventure sports kids do these days? If they're snowboarding, they ride down and then hang out at the top of the terrain park, then choose their own line, make up their own tricks, compare with each other. It's both independent and social, and no adults are directing. If yeh watch lads skateboardin' or free running or hangin' out at da climbing gym it's the same, eh? I think that's what they really crave. It might not be what we remember or what we want, but that's OK, eh? In a lot of ways, these boys are better than us. They want to be independent and get good at stuff, not just have a fun ride. I love it when the boys are better than us adults, it's why we do this stuff, eh? And anyone who watches any of those modern adventure sports knows that this generation really is better than us. Now, I'm not really sure that a BSA camp is goin' to be able to pull that off. We're really too procedural and adult-directed to provide what I think the boys may be lookin' for, partly because we are servin' so many beginners. I worry that most of da camp climbing programs and facilities I've seen so far are pretty lame. Beavah

As I stated before, talk to the local Catholic priest, or better yet have the priest come talk to the committee. Yeh have to be a bit careful here, mate. There are some priests and diocese who are very strict about da obligation to attend Sunday Mass for their members. It's come up in a number of places I know. Of course, they can always charter a troop of their own, eh? Beavah