Beavah

Yah, AnniePoo is da classic case, eh? She's either stuck in a job (often dead-end or advancement-limited, since the most common way to advance these days is to switch employers), or she and her family are saddled with financial disaster if her employer goes under or she gets laid off. That's one of da problems with the current system that needs to be fixed. Eisley has a point, too. If we allow an average young worker to keep their money and not elect any health coverage and then jump in when they're sick, or jump in later in life when they are demographically more likely to be sick, then yeh bankrupt da system. Only way to make it work is if yeh require everyone to pay in and thereby truly distribute the risk without any demographic skimming. Even then, our aging population makes funding anything properly almost impossible. And Gern is right, a core single-payer option or at least government role is likely da most economically efficient way of requiring universal buy-in... in theory. Problem is that it'd be a huge government program, and government programs are like big turds - not only do they often stink, they attract flies. Any mildly unethical pol or business that can afford a lobbyist will try to milk da system for themselves. And like all government programs, it will overpromise and be underfunded. B

Yah, let's raise our hands if we think there weren't already knives in da school cafeteria. I assume the boys and girls don't all eat with their fingers, eh? From da news descriptions, I think this was the offending implement: http://lightmyfireusa.com/spork.html . Somehow, I reckon a cafeteria knife or fork is likely to be more dangerous. mmhardy, the powers of a local school board are defined (and limited by) state school law and regulation. And in a more limited way by federal law and regulation. The amount of discretion given to local boards varies a lot by state. But I can assure you, there is such a thing as "school law." In fact, there are whole legal firms that specialize in it. Of course, there is no law that school board members can't be stupid. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect paid, professional, certified school administrators not to be stupid. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

However, I'd point out that not every skill has to be taught to every Scout using the EDGE system in order to be mastered. Yah, quite right, shortridge. Some self-motivated lads are goin' to dig into the Handbook and the Fieldbook and go out campin' in their backyard, eh? Or at least we hope we inspire 'em to! Point of FCFY, though, is that the troop provides the instruction and opportunity to each boy, eh? So as several folks here have pointed out, it's not sayin' whether any particular boy will be slow or fast, just that the troop is providing the program to each boy. That's where I think we're foolin' ourselves. As we see from posts here, the majority of folks seem to have lads finishing First Class closer to 18 months, even when they're trying to work FCFY. And I reckon many if not most of us would report some stuff that agrees with BadenP, eh? Folks rushin' so that the boys get the patch but really don't get da skill. So our live experience seems like it agrees with my skepticism. Beavah

Yah, good post, Buff. Doin' outside-meeting-time instruction and checkouts is one way to go, eh? With your indulgence, though, I'm goin' to nitpick a bit to further illustrate my point, and see what you and others think. It is often 3-4 Saturday sessions lasting 2-4 hours each... First Aid MB requirements cover completely the 2C and 1C rank requirements. So for argument's sake I'm just goin' to take your averages: 3.5 sessions of 3 hours or an average of 10.5 hours when yeh do this. Now, an ARC adult CPR class (with no AED training) will cover the T-2-1 CPR and heart attack signs and symptoms, includin' testing. ARC says that's a four hour class to do that with a 10:1 student:instructor ratio. Of course, that's teaching adults, but let's take it as a guide. So that leaves you with 6.5 hours left to do all the other First Aid T-2-1 requirements, plus all of da additional First Aid MB requirements, eh? Explain 'em, demonstrate 'em, offer guided practice and scenarios, and then test 'em. As a rough guess, that's 10 minutes per skill with no breaks. ARC claims it take four hours to EDGE and test about 4 skills for adults - about an hour per skill or so. Their research also indicates that by and large they don't get useful mastery from adults in their first class (if useful mastery means they can do it when they need to). So do we as scouters really believe we're doin' the job with kids 6 times better than ARC-trained instructors are able to do with adults? I like da out-of-meeting instruction idea. I think it does what good MB relationships can do, eh? Gets a bunch of lads of the same level together with a skilled adult to really focus on something. But I suspect you're doin' a lot more than that to get your boys to real first aid skills in a year. Care to share what else? Of course, then there's that pesky additional question: is a 2-4 hour class somethin' that really fits with Ages & Stages for an 11-year-old boy? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Nice to hear a calm, rational, and positive resolution to da issue, kittle! Thanks for updating the group. And congratulations to your son! Beavah

School administrators have the zero tolerance policy hanging over their heads like the Sword of Damocles. Yah, da Sword of Damocles had a particular penalty attached to it, eh? These zero-tolerance policies don't. Just becomes one issue of many in da school administrator's evaluation, eh? It's only a Sword of Damocles if the administrators are clueless about school law. And if they're clueless about school law, then perhaps they shouldn't be school administrators? There's lots of ways to change a regulation, eh? Here's hopin' this young man finds a competent attorney and costs the district 6 figures of the taxpayer's money and a raft more public embarrassment. Problem is that those solutions, while they compensate the lad, never get around to personal accountability for the administrators and school board. Yah, and as if on cue, my scouting news feed turned up another one this morning. A 6-year-old cub scout gets suspended and sent to juvenile offender alternative ed. for bringing his cub scout SPORK to school for lunch: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/12/national/main5378839.shtml Beavah

I think you should ask your COR for a business meeting with the Scoutmaster and Committee Chair. Yah, I disagree with John-in-KC here, eh? I think yeh go runnin' off to da COR or IH only when there's a serious issue that merits the involvement and attention of that level of person. Embezzlement/serious misuse of funds, seriously inappropriate behavior by adult leaders, that sort of thing. Issues where one of the likely results is the sponsor making changes in the adult leadership roster. Disputes about advancement don't reach that level in my mind. Those are referee calls, eh? Encouragin' parents to go running off and make a fuss with da sponsor is goin' to harm a lot of sponsor relationships. Few sponsors are used to the steady stream of parent gripes that come out of any youth program that has an evaluation/awards component. There's an appeals process for advancement, eh? When it's appropriate, that should be followed. Though generally speakin', I think kids are best served when their parents support the teacher/coach/referee/scoutmaster or let their child fight that fight on their own. Either way, this is not a matter that merits the institutional involvement of da sponsor. Beavah

Wait, so you are abandoning your concern about the cooking? Nope. Just raisin' all da things a troop needs to do as part of FCFY. A lad needs to learn cooking, and first aid, and navigation, and... that's a lot, eh? I'm not a huge fan of FCFY but I don't know if your line of argument in this thread is really an effective one, Beavah. Yah, could be. So refute it. Tell us how your troop "dovetails" the 36 first aid skills so that each boy experiences all of EDGE and then gets an individual check-out in your program... in one year. And then explain how that is age-appropriate and successful for an average 11 year old and fits in with da other things like cookin'. It all sounds great and easy until yeh actually get down into da details. Yah, sure, da First Class requirements for bandaging are all about bandaging, eh? But da bandages for the ankle, head, and collarbone are all very different, with different issues. Each one needs to be taught, and demonstrated, and practiced individually if it is to be learned. And then tested individually. How many times does a lad have to try before he gets a bandage right? How many times does he need to practice after that to get it down? It's only when yeh get down into the details that you recognize that most units can't do what they claim for FCFY... or at least it's very, very hard. So most end up doin' something to fudge, and end up boys with rank who actually haven't learned much. But they think they're doin' good scouting because their boys get FCFY. Just like cub ranks. I reckon that's why our National Jamboree was one of da largest mass casualty incidents in Virginia, eh? Even though every person there supposedly had learned da prevention, recognition, and treatment of heat injuries before they "got" Second Class Scout. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, no such policy. Da BSA position is that Boy Scouts should be allowed to use all kinds of knives, and be taught how to use 'em properly as tools. Now, to my mind there are good safety reasons to teach lads to use a locking-blade or fixed-blade sheath knife as a preferred tool. Those non-lockin' blades carve more fingers than they should. At the same time, there are all kinds of good reasons to carry a general purpose "Swiss-Army" tool that has non-locking blades. I'm not at all well versed on knife and weapons laws across da several states, eh? But I have a hard time believin' that many jurisdictions really restrict knives over 4". That would make it awfully hard on restaurant and catering chefs, eh? Beavah

Yah, mmhardy, best to be careful, eh? Generally speakin', there is discretion in terms of enforcement of this sort of thing under the law, either explicitly in da legislation or regulation, or implicitly in the jurisdictional separation of powers and the express or implied authority of particular bodies or positions. In this particular case, there are also potential issues with respect to da search and substantive due process. And from a quick check on da California DOE site, it doesn't appear this district is even followin' the state guidelines (http://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/ss/se/zerotolerance.asp). Law is a creature of the community, eh? It must reflect da mores of the populace and serve the just ends to which the people aspire. School officials and elected board members have a civic and moral duty to use their full experience, talents, and judgment in support of da goals of the populace and the values of the community. It is incompetence or dereliction that hides behind "Oh, we had to because of da zero-tolerance statute". Our system of laws is not that simplistic or inept, or we never would have survived as a nation this long. Now, to be fair, we don't get da full story in this article, eh? Apparently there was some sort of a "tip off", and we don't know what the school officials were told by another student. They might have been given reason to be worried or be harsh. Beavah

Yah, I agree with Merlyn too, eh? I don't believe in gods. Beavah

Yah, OK. So SR540, there are 36 different First Aid skills required for T-2-1. If yeh use the FCFY concept and EDGE, then your troop's annual plan is set up in a way that allows each boy, if he so chooses, to hear an Explanation or two, watch a Demonstration or two, participate in a bunch of Guided practice, and then participate in more practice/fail/try again/fail/try again/ succeed for each of those 36 different requirements that he must demonstrate. Then, when he's learned, he gets tested. Individually. Right? So how do yeh do it? When yeh sit with your PLC at your annual program planning conference, how do you incorporate EDGE for each boy for 36 first aid skills in a year? A skill per meeting (with practice when)? A few full-weekend first aid outings? TG's are issued a checklist? Maybe I'm just gettin' old and dumb. So help out a fellow long-toothed furball. B

Yah, I don't hate the President, eh? But this is a bit ridiculous. Carter arguably merited da prize for the Camp David accords, eh? He successfully concluded a peace between Egypt and Israel which has held for 30 years, something those of us who were around in da 60s and 70s would never have bet on. Never did get Gore. Better to give it to da scientists and folks doin' real work. This one is way out there, though. I reckon it's really a Nobel Prize for the American Constitution, eh? The rest of the world is just so relieved at the peaceful transfer of power from GWB to BHO that they awarded Obama the prize, not recognizing that it was just the Constitution. Beavah

I have a troop where my step son attends where the father is paying his son $50.00 per merit badge and $100.00 for Star, $200.00 for Life and $400.00 for Eagle. Yah, so what's a SM to do with this, eh? I'm wonderin' how often we need to have sit-downs with parents. Parenting is a hard thing, and doesn't come with a manual, eh? And in creativity or desperation, folks will try the most interestin' approaches. Anybody found good ways to address somethin' like this? How do you go about it in a way that's non-threatening and has a shot at gettin' through? And who gets to have those conversations? Often da SM is "just another parent," when really yeh might need a minister or grandfather figure, eh? Beavah

Yah, lots of good advice here. Who is your CO? Any sense what they feel on the matter? Remember, it's their unit and their mission, eh? Both you and the SM work for them. I think yeh want to get their sense of it. I'm with Lisabob and others on this. I don't think most teens really understand what "atheist" means, and when they use da word they're really just expressin' their questioning and doubt rather than their conviction. Sometimes, I ask 'em what they mean by "God" when they say they don't believe in God. And after they fumble around a bit with that, I tell 'em it's OK because I don't believe in that either! Kids get da oddest notions about God, since it's rare these days that anybody is really teachin' 'em very much. All that being said, I'd sure like to see these conversations happen at the lower ranks, eh? I think your SM and BOR members really let the lad and the unit down on that. They missed an opportunity to really explore and help a boy learn about himself and his world and just grow. By Eagle rank, I like to see boys who have come to some understanding, and can express how they view da Oath and Law with honesty and some degree of maturity and commitment. No reason a lad can't both acknowledge doubt and commitment, eh? Good preparation for marriage . Da thing yeh have to ask yourself in this case might be whether the SM let the boy down on this for so long that bringin' it up at this point is not being fair. And then balance that against where the boy is really at, where the CO is at, and the kind of example you'll be setting for the other kids. But I reckon you and da COR might need to address the SM on the issue. Beavah

I also find that I'm trying to write 10 minutes worth of a response in two minutes because I in the middle of something else and I don't take the time to reread what I've written. Yah, I think this is common, eh? Leastways, I do it all the time. And then sit there wonderin' "Well, why did he respond like that?" when it was because of a turn of phrase that I was typin' with a smile but which came across like I was bein' an .... I do sometimes think the animated discussions in Issues & Politics spill over. It's hard sometimes to separate da two if I&P got all personal. Still, I think a lot of it is what emb021 points out, eh? There are just a lot of folks who haven't yet figured out da new media. Email and forums and such are just different than print media or letters. But a lot of folks read 'em like they're readin' a letter, and then get offended by the tone largely because it's much less formal and less couched in niceties. Last set is those who hold their ideas very close, eh? If someone holds their ideas so tight that they consider them a part of themselves, then postin' 'em on a large public forum is goin' to give 'em nothing but heartache. Ideas on a public forum are going to be questioned, and challenged, and argued, and expanded on. But if yeh hold your ideas so tight, it's easy to mistake that for a personal attack and then respond inappropriately. B

Yah, I know lots of troops with da no candy or soda thing, eh? Between da caffeine and the sugar and the wrappers left around for critters and the uneaten meals because the lads filled up on junk, it often begs for da arbitrary rule . Latest permutation of that has been energy drinks, eh? These things are legion, just loaded with caffeine and sugar. Some lads treat 'em almost like alcohol and go on binges. No portable gizmos other than GPS or cameras is common. Stick-in-fire-stays-in-fire. Know one scouter who got so tired of his teenagers squinting at everything and not bein' able to navigate that they implemented a "if you have corrective lenses you must wear corrective lenses" rule. No boots in tent. No Ramen Noodles or Pop-Tarts allowed. Yah, and it wouldn't be Scouter.Com if we didn't mention "Patrols must camp at least 300 feet from each other" Beavah

So it would still take 8 trips for every member to do the First Class requirement, but the Second Class requirement could be done in a single weekend, a single meal even, rather than the 2-4 I said before. Yah, da test could. Though I reckon it is fudging a bit not having to plan or cook for anyone else. And it would be an awfully big surprise if every boy moved along at da same pace. That's a later step of advancement though, eh? When did the lads learn? When did they get taught and see a demo? When did they each get stuck and get guided? When did they practice & play? When did they try and fail? Da test of demonstratin' the requirement doesn't take much time (though it's almost too much to do in a year). It's the bigger, more important piece of advancement that takes da real effort, eh? Step One: A Boy Scout Learns. Would we expect a non-swimmer to pass da swim test his very first time? Of course not. Learning to swim takes work. Why would we then assume that a young lad who has never planned or cooked before would meet that requirement his first time? Learning to cook takes work, too. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, Lisabob and Horizon, I hear yeh. In Lisabob's case, the most dedicated and gung-ho scouts are doin' it, taking up the time of the no-shows. Thing is, as described, First Class Emphasis means the troop should provide the opportunity to all first year boys. Assumin' that more than half of 'em are going to fade out so that the few gung ho kids get all the time they need doesn't seem like it's really the spirit of the thing. And Horizon admits to not doin' NSP. So to my mind, that's two more examples of how it isn't really possible in da current program as written. Second Campout, each of the new Scouts takes on one meal for the weekend Horizon, what do you do so that every scout is ready and able to successfully plan and cook a meal on his own on his first attempt (and only da second campout to boot)? I've rarely seen even da best and brightest lads do this on their own right out of the gate like that. Third, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth campout... First Class is demonstrated (by 4 different boys) So on his third ever campout, a 10-11 year old is able to plan an entire weekend's food (with nutritional considerations), do the costing and the shopping and the safe storage and gear planning, and then be head chef for the whole thing in the field? On his own? You must have a bunch of lads from da local culinary school. Are yeh sure your TG/PLs and adults aren't still Demonstrating and Guiding? I've always liked Kudu's thought test for First Class, eh? Would yeh trust the lads to plan and execute food (or whatever) on a patrol trip with no adults or senior scouts at all? That's what da signoff is supposed to mean, eh? Something the Boy Scout is able to do. For himself. On his own. I just don't see most boys gettin' there on their first try. Shortridge's point is a good one, though. If a unit is associated with a pack that has a really strong webelos program, that gives yeh a lot of time to build boys' basic understanding and skill. That can really work for a troop. Thing is, FCFY wasn't designed to assume that sort of prior experience, especially since city and suburban troops tend to draw from multiple packs. Beavah

The Second Class cooking requirement can be done on a campout concurrently with someone else serving as patrol cook for the First Class requirement Not without subtracting from da requirements. The First Class requirement demands serving as cook for the whole campout, and cooking the meals that the scout had planned. The Second Class requirement also requires planning and cooking a meal, so they can't be done concurrently. So the 2nd class requirement could be knocked out for a patrol of 8 in 4 campouts at most (and could even be reasonably done in 2) while the 1st class patrol cook requirement would need 8 campouts. Yah, so now we're up to 12 campouts total, assuming perfect attendance and a typical dining hall summer camp. Oops, we forgot da Tenderfoot cooking requirement to assist with a meal. One would think, given EDGE and common sense that we'd have lads assist with a meal before planning and cooking a whole meal on their own, eh? Or a whole weekend's meals. So we have to add in time for that. And remember, all this is just for the testing piece, eh? But testing is Step 3 of Advancement. Where was all the "demonstrating" and "guiding" and "enabling" pieces that we teach are necessary to complete step two of Advancement: The Scout Learns? Oops. Gotta add in those. Which gets us back to how much coachin' and practice do we figure an average 6th grader needs before he can reasonably plan and execute a meal on his own? Or before he can reasonably plan and execute a weekend's worth of meals? What if several of those campouts are up here in da North in January and February? Are we lettin' boys solo on cooking their first time ever when snow campin'? Now, I'll grant that a troop that runs patrol cooking at summer camp gets a big leg up here, eh? But those are few and far between. And mixed-age patrols make it easier, too, since you'll have fewer lads below First Class in da patrol, and therefore more time for instruction/assisting with meals/learning. But mixed age patrols, while allowed, aren't da recommended program anymore. So I'm still tryin' to figure out how to do it as stated. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

I sent an apology to kittle by PM, but will repeat it here. It's very difficult to guess at what's up from limited information, eh? "I am an ASM with the Troop and have been helping this new Pack get started and going strong as they are a very small Pack from a very small town. I went to any meeting with him that I did not have to work." That to me said that mom was involved in da pack for the whole time son was a Den Chief. "Part of the problem is that the SM never wrote down in the records when my son started as Den Chief.... By the way, my son took over helping this Pack at least 6 months before the SM would let him be Den Chief." Just sent up all kinds of red flags for me about communication, whether da SM approved him as Den Chief or mom pulled him in for the pack she was tryin' to help. I can be right or wrong, eh? Each of us offers a perspective based on readin' very limited information through da lenses of our own experience. That all of us offer different advice and perspectives is how we are tryin' to be helpful. Da strength of internet forums is that you get that breadth of perspective and interpretation. In tryin' to offer our perspectives, we don't always agree with da original poster, we sometimes offer hard advice, and we sometimes get on a bit of a tear. But we do it in charity and compassion. I'm sorry if that tone of charity and compassion fails to come across when it should in my typin'. But it's there, nonetheless. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm.... I guess I was hopin' for more specifics, like Horizon's or a bit more. Talkin' unit program, as OGE says. Let's take da cooking bit. You've got around 8 boys in a patrol, you run maybe 10 weekend outings a year. Each boy has to plan and serve as his patrol's cook for a full campout, AND each boy has to plan and cook a breakfast or lunch in addition. Seems like that takes 16 campouts, assumin' the attendance works out perfectly. Or let's take first aid. There are 36 first aid skills which each boy must learn and then demonstrate individually. Most troops run about that many meetings a year. So that means teachin' an average of one thing per meeting, and assuming 100% attendance. But after yeh explain/demonstrate, then the lad needs to practice and get coached and be "enabled", right? When does that happen? Then after that, each boy needs to individually demonstrate/be tested on each skill. Let's say yeh have 8 boys, and it takes about 5-10 minutes for a boy to demonstrate da skill. Yah, sure, some are faster, but most good treatment and bandaging, especially splinting, is gonna take longer. So that's an additional 40-80 minutes per week. Assuming that every boy learns everything perfectly da first time. So I just don't get it. Help me out, here, because I can honestly say I've never seen it work for an average troop and an average 6th grade boy. Leastways, not without a lot of fudging or school-stuff. Specifically, how do yeh handle these two areas as an example? And that's before we even get into pullups or swimming . Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I think SM224 and NealonWheels give solid advice, eh? The issue isn't rank advancement. The issue is behavior and being a good member. Best not to get 'em mixed up. Lots of times we try to use the advancement program for everything, when really it's just meant to be 1/8 of the program which helps the lads with goal-setting and learning. I'd say the lad's next SM Conference and BOR should have nothing to do with advancement. It should have to do with behavior and character and with why he's there, and why you should keep him on the charter. Move advancement off the agenda for dad and everybody else. Da issue is behavior and membership right now. Don't use advancement for somethin' it wasn't designed for. Beavah

Yah, I think yeh get the boys workin' on it and thinkin' about it right away, eh? Often as not, they'll really surprise you with their wisdom, and they'll buy into a solution that's primarily theirs. I'm not as fond as Eagledad of da notion of usin' NSPs when a troop goes through a growth spurt. I think any time yeh increase the troop size by that much it's goin' to change the dynamic anyway. Better to have your patrols and patrol leaders be full partners in the process. And when they are full partners, they almost always want to pull new guys into "their" patrol, even though it's goin' to change the dynamic. For the additional patrol(s), there's almost always a few lads who are ready and willing to take on a new challenge and be the Founding Fathers of a new patrol. Let 'em! Yep, your troop will be in many ways "startin' fresh". Yep, your youth leaders will be workin' like mad, stormin' and normin' and all that. But it's fun, eh? And it's theirs. Beavah

Annual planning should provide the opportunity for boys to obtain 1st Class in their first year. For an active scout who attend 8 - 10 outings and has a desire to accomplish this - it should be a piece of cake. I've heard this claim a lot. I remember BobWhite makin' it, and when I challenged him to come up with such a plan we got copies of a T-2-1 detailed school curriculum that some Chicago-area teacher had done, and four-hour long troop meetings tryin' to cover a half a dozen different topics. If what we're talkin' about is makin' a scout ready for bigger adventures (what NealonWheels mentioned), or makin' him self-sufficient as an outdoorsman (da traditional view of First Class), or a lad demonstrating proficiency in outdoor skills (the BSA Rules & Regulations standard), I don't think it's possible for most boys in most troops to do in a year. Yah, yah, there are always the exceptional boys who have been campin' with their family for years, and exceptional troops that run three outings a month and 3 week-long trips a year. But for most kids? I don't buy it. And I've seen an awful lot of troops, eh? How long do we think it takes for a boy with no knowledge to learn to recognize and respond to heat exhaustion and dehydration, and distinguish it from heat stroke? Apparently a lot longer than we've planned in our FCFY curricula, given what happened at the last Jambo. How many tries do we think it really takes for a lad to learn how to make batter and cook good pancakes in the field? I'm willing to bet we'd all agree the number is a lot more than one. But if a boy is in an 8-person patrol and attends 8 campouts in da year as acco suggests above, then he gets one try, eh? And that's just to do part of the second class requirement. Haven't even gotten to da first class cooking requirements. So since I've never really seen an ordinary troop succeed with FCFY, I'd love to see a few troop annual plans which really do what acco suggests above. I reckon a lot of folks would learn from 'em, and it would make for a good discussion. So if yeh think your troop has this down to a "piece of cake", here's your chance to help all da rest of us out. Please share! Beavah