Beavah

Yah, livin' up here in da north, over the years Mrs. Beavah and I pretty much reached da conclusion that we just like weather. All kinds of weather. It's interestin', it's fun, it's wonderous. There's stuff to celebrate and enjoy about all of it. This is a day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad of it! Besides, I may be old, but I can still throw a wickedly accurate snowball . Beavah

Yah, what all da others said, eh? No YP issue with email. Safer for you and the boy than telephones. Facebook even more so, since it is very much "public". Of course, I'm all for teachin' the lads how to handle the spam and other crap they get, and da risks of posting in certain venues. But if you're goin' to teach that stuff, yeh have to be communicatin' with your boys in something resembling at least late 20th century technology. Beavah

Yah, been around a lot of politicians. Yeh either get arrogant or shallow 99% of da time. Usually both. Most of 'em get all caught up in that notion of people thinkin' that they're bigwigs, when actually shyster lobbyists are thinkin' that they're "marks." Da best of the lot are the ones who aren't afraid to hire smart people and listen to 'em. The worst of the lot are da ones who surround themselves with sycophants and live in their own cocktail party / echo chamber universe. Da funniest are when the worst of the lot start blusterin' about the others bein' arrogant or shallow. Beavah

Oi! BadenP, you're givin' me a headache! Thats why most sponsors do not let scout units use their EIN because of the confusion as to who the contributor is giving their money to. Can yeh please provide your source for da statement that "most sponsors do not let scout units use their EIN". I do not believe that information is collected anywhere. And as you've already been informed, churches do not file 990s. "a scout unit is not considered a subordinate to the BSA", thats because a subordinate would be entitled to solicit donations in the name of the BSA, it is just a semantic legality to prevent this from happening. It does not mean a scout unit is not part of the BSA for example units are offered insurance under the BSA corporate umbrella. Yah, this is so completely incorrect it's hard to know where to start. Units are not subordinate to the BSA because da BSA does not own, operate, or exercise control over 'em. That's not a "semantic" anything, that's a little thing called corporate or entity law, and it's a very deliberate part of the BSA's legal risk management program. It definitely does mean that scout units are not part of the BSA, and therefore that the BSA is not liable for their actions. Insurance is completely irrelevant, regardless of whether it's carrying an umbrella or wearin' a raincoat. My auto insurance is from State Farm, that does not mean I'm a corporate subsidiary of State Farm, eh? It just means that I've contracted with State Farm for a service. CO's contract with da BSA for a service which includes general liability coverage. A scout unit is not legally allowed to use a sponsors EIN, that is true since that number identifies only the sponsor, if they do give permission than they become legally responsible for reporting those donations solicited by the scouts. What yeh seem unable to quite understand is that a scout unit under most circumstances is not a separate entity. If a church calls its choir "The Holy Rollers" and contracts with Time Warner for sheet music, that does not mean that da choir is suddenly part of Time Warner or suddenly a separate entity from da church. So if da church calls part of it's youth program "Troop 4567" and contracts with da BSA for support materials, that does not mean that part of its youth program is suddenly owned by da BSA or suddenly a separate entity from the church. Again, the plain language of the charter agreement makes it explicit that the scout unit is the sponsor. "The Boy Scouts of America is an educational resource program. It charters community or religious organizations to use Scouting as part of their service to their own members, as well as the community at large." Not even mired in legalese, that. Beavah

Beavah, laws are always subject to different interpretations Nah, not always. There is plenty of settled law, and most law is written quite plainly. Let's take, for example, the text of the regulation for which I gave you the citation: "Reasonable expenditures for meals and lodging necessarily incurred while away from home in the course of rendering donated services also are deductible." That has a very simple, plain meaning, eh? No particular "legalese", though "reasonable" is a term of art and "away from home" is subject to definition within da regulation. What it means is that out-of-pocket camp fees which are required as part of donating one's time to a charitable organization like the BSA are deductible. You see, when da regulation says "are deductible", it really does mean they are deductible. Yeh won't get any argument from me that da whole thing is a mess, eh? But that's one of da reasons to take extra care before makin' definitive statements that may lead others astray. I reckon a scouter should take whatever deductions he can. Far better to have him keep his money and use it for scoutin' than to give it to the IRS when the law does not require him to, don't yeh think? Still waitin' on that magic citation that makes a church sponsored program not a church program, BTW. I await it with breathless anticipation. And you're quite correct, I never did answer your question as to what my legal expertise/background is, if any. Beavah

If you want the cite for who is responsible for the accuracy of the return Nah, hotair, I wanted a cite for da claim that "I can tell you this for a fact they [units] are NOT considered to be part of their sponsors 501c3 organization under Federal tax law." I see I'm still waitin' for one. On da issue of meals, whether or not National issues a donation letter is irrelevant for expenses. I think it is quite correct that they should not. Expenses aren't a donation, they are expenses, and the charitable entity can't be put in the position of verifying the person's expenses. That does not in any way change the fact that charitable expenses, including overnight travel, fees, lodging, and meals, are deductible at 100%. This is da plain language of da regulation, guys. 26 CFR 1.170-2 (a)(2). But yeh all are inspiring us with da knowledge that IRS agents actually have of the tax code. Happily, it is most definitely not "how the IRS auditor interprets the law during an audit that counts." Leastways, not in our country, though one can argue that administrative law is the furthest departure we have from our core principles, as the least "checked" and most invasive function of da Executive Branch. Right there with yeh, scoutldr! Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

The amount of a leaders fee at camp would not be an itemized deduction since something of value (food) is received for the payment. Yah, I don't think yeh got that one right, mate. Cost of meals when travelin' overnight away from home for charitable work is deductible at 100%. Ain't the same thing as a charitable banquet. Beavah

I can tell you this for a fact they are NOT considered to be part of their sponsors 501c3 organization under Federal tax law. OK, I'll play I'm sittin' here with da USC on da shelves, and my computer is all powered up to Lexis-Nexis. Perhaps yeh would be good enough to give me the citation where yeh think any federal statute says that, or any court of competent jurisdiction held that interpretation? I know a lot of major CO's are goin' to be quite surprised that they have the liability for runnin' a troop, and they have mounds of materials and even national bodies dedicated to usin' scouting for their ministry work, but that the IRS suddenly feels that they are non-charitable, unregistered, unincorporated associations. Yeh just aren't gettin' this right, mate. And if da IRS were really to take this position as a point of law with anyone who has da capacity to contest it, they'd lose. But I'll be happy to take a look at your citation. Beavah

Yah, somebody could send a PM to Kudu or Merlyn, eh? A bit like blowin' on da embers... or perhaps like lightin' magnesium chips... B

Yah, Scout Salute, gwd. And yeh just don't know, eh? Sometimes very active SMs need to just step back for a bit, recharge their own batteries, take care of personal stuff. Dat's OK. Then often as not, they find they have the energy and da love to step back into the fray. Whatever yeh do, don't leave Scoutin'. Lord knows we need good Commissioners . Beavah

All I can tell you guys is call the IRS directly and make your inquiries Yah, that's a laugh, eh? We all know da folks manning the taxpayer help lines are minimally trained low level staffers with very high error rates, and that consulting with them in advance is not a defense in an audit. For good answers that can offer yeh some protection against penalties, it's a CPA. For real answers of a technical nature, it's an attorney specializin' in tax law for NFPs. Some answers, though, are fairly straightforward. Sorry, but a scout unit is most definitely not considered to be part of da BSA. If they were, then they would partake of da BSA's tax exempt status, and the BSA wouldn't need to provide insurance for da COs. Yeh just aren't understandin' the law, BadenP. As for "legal tax laws that identify them as seperate entity from the church"... legal tax laws, eh? I'll assume that's a technical term . Sorry, I'll stand by my original statement. "Legal tax laws" don't get to rewrite da corpus of corporate law. NealonWheels, to back up for a second, section 501©(3) of the Internal Revenue Code is what defines a not-for-profit charitable entity which qualifies a donor for a tax deduction. That's the U.S. law. Yes, to be deductible a donation must be made to an organization which qualifies under that section of the law. Besides the law itself, as a federal agency the IRS can promulgate regulations to define how it interprets and enforces the law. These constitute "administrative law" - the executive branch's approach to interpreting and enforcing the statutory law. Sadly, booklets and information packets and other documents like Publication 526 that attempt to write in plain English really are only informal documents and generally have no legal force. So nope, yeh can't rely on 'em, just like yeh can't rely on an average IRS front-line employee to get stuff right when it's at all technical. Odd system we have, eh? Happily, for any of da issues or amounts we're typically talkin' about for scoutin', it just isn't a problem. Pick up Tom's most recent guidelines and approach things honestly and you'll be fine. But if you're doin' anything unusual with bigger dollar amounts, that's when an accountant or tax attorney are worth their wage, eh? Beavah

Yah, sorry BadenP, I reckon any good tax attorney would take that case pro bono and da IRS would lose. The troop is not an affiliated organization, it is a youth ministry run by the church. Exactly da same as a church youth group. The fact that the church contracts with the BSA for support services for their youth program is irrelevant, and a claim that a group whose leadership is selected and approved by church-appointed officials is somehow a separate unregistered unincorporated association is completely spurious. I also reckon it's well established law that churches do in fact gain benefits which are consistent with their charitable purposes by runnin' youth programs. Now the particulars of whether a donation to an Eagle Scout project is a donation to the troop/church's youth program or a donation to the agency that is benefiting from the lad's project is a question of fact, eh? But in either case it's likely deductible. Unless there's somethin' really unusual goin' on, this is goin' to be a non-issue. My fee was $100. I drove out to the camp (appx. 70miles). I'm wondering if I am correct in saying that my fee ($100) plus the mileage (round trip 140 x $0.55 = $77) are deductible contributions, while my son's $200 fee is not. Yah, correct that your expenses for serving as a troop leader (not just a parent) are deductible, as well as your mileage at the charitable mileage rate (or actual gas expenses). Best guide out there for Scouting and taxes was put together by Tom Turba, an accountant and tax professional and scouter. Tom's been kind enough to keep it up to date for the scoutin' community. Here's the last link to it I had, but I reckon there's a new one out there. http://www.troop957.com/docs/misc/Scouting-and-Taxes-Apr08.pdf Beavah Of course, nothing in this message should be construed as legal opinion or advice. For authoritative answers on a tax-related question you should consult with a tax attorney familiar with your case, or a CPA in your area.

Yah, there are other subtle things yeh can do, eh? I think it's just fine if one adult shows one Patrol Leader or older boy a new cooking technique. Especially if the boy asks! Yeh might even invite a lad occasionally to help prepare an adult meal as sous-chef. Then that boy takes it and tries it and teaches it to others and da neighboring patrol starts lookin' over his shoulder and all that. Key is to work through your junior leaders. Biggest point, though, is that we don't want boys (just) to know how to make a good pancake, eh? We want 'em to know how to learn and figure out how to do things like cook a good pancake. It's that knowing how to learn something, knowing how to figure it out on your own that is the really important skill that boys get in Scoutin'. I think you're doin' just fine. As long as da CC keeps challengin' your thinking but not interferin', that's also a good thing. Keeps yeh honest and keeps your brain workin' on how to do it better while keepin' it boy-led. Stay friends with the man and your troop will continue to do good things. Beavah P.S. One added point on Eagle92's suggestion - if yeh use cookbooks, yeh actually do often have to teach the boys how to read and follow a cookbook recipe. It isn't an automatic thing - either the readin' skills or the following that kind of direction.

Lets say one of these people wanted a tax receipt for their services. Sorry, there's no tax deduction for donatin' your time, labor, or advice, eh? Only for donatin' money or goods. Beavah

Well, it's no cut and run. Another 30-40,000 of our young people are goin' to be rapid-deployed in the new year to Afghanistan. Former scouts and scouters; fellow citizens. Some I expect will be gettin' their orders over the holidays. I wish I were optimistic, but I don't think anything short of a deployment of 500,000 includin' da entire Corps of Engineers and a nation-building effort that would bankrupt us would come to close to makin' Afghanistan stable. And even then, da remote corners could still hide our enemies. I see that da politicos who are always so eager to stay and fight are doin' their best to avoid funding the war or supporting the troops with even a penny of a supplemental war tax. No surprise there. Wars are meant to be fought with both our children's bodies and their financial future. I hope I'm wrong, eh? I hope our military leaders are brilliant. I pray our sons and daughters are resolute at winning battles as well as hearts. I wish that da perpetual culture of tribal favoritism and corruption that plagues that whole area of the world will suddenly dissolve into scoutly service to others. And I hope our vicious, backward enemies are obliterated. Above all, I pray they all come home safe and sound, and to a life and family that has persevered for them in their absence. I know that da answer to that prayer will be "No", at least in part. If yeh can, do somethin' for the family of a serviceman or three in da months and year ahead. I will be. If our "leaders" don't have da courage of their convictions, we ordinary citizens can at least have the character to tax ourselves. Eternal Father, lord of love We seek your blessing from above We thank you for the time we've shared And pause to show our hope and care For those deployed for whom we pray Will know your peace while underway Beavah

28 pages; 417 replies. Is this a record? Yah, if not, we can all break into a chorus of Gilwell while we wait...

Yah, two things. Thing one. Don't think for a minute that you're goin' to talk talk talk blah blah blah this kid into learnin' anything. He's a fellow who has to figure things out on his own by learnin' from experience. So to work with that is easy, eh? All yeh have to do is set up tighter, impersonal evaluation / feedback. Congratulations or "BRONNNNKK! You lose!". Then let him figure out how to beat the game. Competition can work. Start givin' patrols points for attendance, and I reckon he'll learn to call people (or text 'em or tweet 'em or whatever thing they use these days). Have patrol competitions, and I'm sure he won't take advice, but I'm also sure he'll look to see what other PL's are doin' that works. Either that or his patrol will get it together to elect someone else . In short don't tell/"suggest to" him what to do or how to do it. To him, that just means "Little kid, I think you're an idiot." Just specify challenges and outcomes, which to him will say "Young adult, I think you can figure this out." Thing two. No adult can be a mentor to every kid. There are always goin' to be those kids that just annoy us, or that we can't figure out. Thank goodness, the Great Scoutmaster saw fit to put more than one adult on the planet. A boy that you just don't get may be a boy that is great fun for someone else with a different style. Let boys and adults in your program bond as they see fit, and don't be afraid to say to an ASM "he's yours!" when an ASM has the keys to a kid that you don't. Me, I like da ruffians that a lot of Scoutmasters can't stand. Just my style. But there are some lads that crawl up my nose or that just mystify me. Dat's OK. They have the adults who "get" them, and I give those adults some room to work their own brand of magic. And the scoutin' goes on... Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, ditto all the rest of the folks. Sit down and talk to the boy man to man, and tell it like it is. Scoutldr is right, boys don't do subtle, but they grok honesty and courage. I'm always think it's a bit turned about when these things come up as advancement issues, eh? Poor behavior is a behavior issue, not an advancement issue. I think what happens is sometimes parent leaders don't fully take on the Scoutmaster role. Some of 'em just keep being parents to their kid, and so they don't feel it's right or appropriate to address the behavior of other people's kids. Sometimes adults just don't have the gumption to address young teens. So it all just festers and then comes up at advancement, where the adults feel they have more control or something. Advancement shouldn't even be part of da conversation. The conversation is about bullying and trustworthiness and disruptive behavior. And if any of those things are anything more than a minor issue, da conversation is about continued membership. Beavah

Can the SM not sign off on Scout Spirit if there are ongoing problems, even if the references say otherwise? Yah, of course. Da Scoutmaster is responsible for decidin' who tests and can sign off for advancement requirements in the troop, and his signature is required on the Eagle Rank Application. And we have a whole set of procedures for appeal if da Scoutmaster chooses not to sign off, eh? Can't be much clearer than that. Da Scoutmaster may choose not to sign off on Scout Spirit or anything else, and that means no advancement (though the scout can appeal). Beavah

Yah, no activity uniform. But we still have an "Action" shirt.

One option yeh might think about is runnin' a Venture Patrol as a pull-out program (or dual-chartering a crew). Take those boys and run high adventure trips with 'em, and then have them bring that experience back to their patrols to continue to improve da kinds of patrol and troop trips that get run. So yeh take one or two guys to make 'em PL/APL (or Pres/VP) to plan a high adventure trip, like a two week whitewater rafting camp, with rescue trainin' and the whole shebang. The PLs etc. participate in that, but stay as PLs. Then da troop organizes troop or patrol whitewater activities, and the PLs are in a position to teach and lead their patrol in a whole new way. Doesn't have to be whitewater, of course. Pick from da vast array of more challengin' trips in your part of the country. Yeh get a couple of new leadership positions for guys who really need "out" from da PL grind, but yeh keep the Patrol Leader and PLC as the coolest/most knowledgeable guys in the program, and give 'em new challenges - new challenges to test themselves first, then new challenges of leadership in challenging activities. Just a thought, eh? One of da cool things about the BSA is that we've tried all kinds of things over the decades. Even though those things aren't on da books anymore, they still work for a lot of kids and units same as they did back then. Beavah

Yah, BrentAllen was describin' in da previous thread how in his startup unit, he now has boys who have been Patrol Leaders for a few years but are still relatively young (age 13-14 Brent?). Goin' forward, PLs typically won't be movin' into that role until they've had more years under their belt than these fellows did, and then will stick with PL into higher ages. BrentAllen is facin' da question of what to do during that transition with the older guys? One option is creatin' a senior leaders' group (SPL & troop positions, like da old Leadership Corps). I was discouragin' that, because it so strongly pulls his Patrol Method troop back toward "Troop Method", as the cool older fellows become troop leaders and the PLs become poor second cousins. But it certainly is one way to go, if he works hard at developin' an adult-style service orientation in 'em, like a JASM. (my issue, BrentAllen, is that you're goin' to have too many of the fellows knockin' around. One JASM in a troop your size is plenty. Too many, and the only thing they have to do is get in da PL's business). What other thoughts do we have for him as he wrestles with this? Beavah

Yah, readin' back, I was kind of figurin' that this thread would be about Eagle 732's problem of the older boys foistin' the PL job off on younger fellows. So let's return to that, since I'm sure a bunch of other scouters have good ideas for that situation. I'm goin' to spin off BrentAllen's very different situation since I reckon a lot of folks are followin' the progress of his troop, and it really illustrates the progress and challenges of a startup program. Beavah

I used to be a Turkey, And a good old Turkey too Now I'm finished Turkeying I don't know what to do I'm growin' old and feeble And I can Turkey no more So I'm going to be basted with stuffing if I can!

Yah, Brent, I think yeh want to take a step back and think about that JLC thing a bit, eh? Yeh say that the PL is the most important position in the troop. I agree. But now you're goin' to set up a system where your troop's best guys and leaders aren't PLs, they're JLC members. In fact, to get to be one of those cool guys, yeh have to graduate up from bein' a Patrol Leader. Kids aren't dumb. They'll look at that setup and say "I want to be on JLC, they're the top dogs". Your structure will speak much, much louder to 'em than your words. So PL will become in their mind just a stepping-stone position on the road to bein' with the coolest guys. Doin' something here and there with individual boys like you describe is just fine. So is retirin' from PL and just becoming a "regular patrol citizen" again. There are lots of way to address "burnout", often one of 'em is new challenges as Patrol Leader. Patrol high adventure trips? More completely independent patrol trips? I've seen a lot of troops try da JLC/LC/etc. type thing. While it's OK, I don't think you'll get da results you want for your program. Seems to work better for your type of program if da troop positions remain in their patrols rather than get pulled out. So your QM fellow or SPL might occasionally be on detached duty, but he still comes home and eats, sleeps, and contributes as a regular member to his patrol. That really conveys in your structure what yeh say in your words - the Patrol Leader is the most important position. Besides, learnin' how to "pass the baton" to the next fellow and then respect and support him is one of those life skills we should teach boys, don't yeh think? It'll take some coaching, but that's what we're here for! Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)