Beavah

Good for you, if it makes yeh proud. Better yet, if it encourages yeh to learn all you can so that you can run a great program for kids. Some folks get motivated by that stuff, and that's a fine thing. These days I'm an old critter who has too many patches in his drawer. After a while, the stuff that really makes yeh proud is those lads who have become fine men, and who bring yeh to tears when they say that a big part of who they are is because of Scoutin'. I reckon that's the stuff that'll make yeh proud long after the patches wear out. Keep up your trainin'. Wear your patch with pride. But keep your eyes on that bigger prize. Beavah

Yah, I'm with Scoutfish, eh? I'm not a real fan of pointless gestures. Lots of folks are, I guess. Makes 'em feel good to "take a stand" and make a pointless gesture. Less work than actually doin' the hard labor of makin' real change. Makin' real change takes sacrifice and commitment. If yeh really want to change hearts and minds in Uganda, you have to actually go to Uganda. Get involved with people. Learn their culture. Teach their children. Promote da values of Scouting with your boots on the ground. Put your life on the line in an area that may be hostile to you and your ideas. Much easier and more righteous-feelin' to denounce 'em from 3000 miles away. Barack Obama is titular head of da BSA. Should WOSM de-certify the BSA when da U.S. does somethin' folks elsewhere don't like? Beavah

Yah, and surely you're not "retesting" a Tenderfoot requirement at an Eagle BOR. Or expecting an Eagle scout to know about da buddy system or any of that other T-2-1 stuff like their responsibilities as a citizen. No retesting. Beavah

Yah, there are other answers possible, though, Scoutfish. One answer to knowin' that there's stupid people out there is to label every hammer, ladder, and pocketknife with warning stickers, eh? And then make 'em sign 3 pages worth of waivers. And then try to legislate away every chance that someone might do somethin' dumb. I hear it's illegal to tie your alligator to a fire hydrant in Detroit. I reckon I've seen enough of that kind of legislation and risk management. Written some of it myself, I apologize for sayin'. None of it is worth a plug nickel. Another way of thinkin' about it is "don't hire stupid people." So if you're a CO or a unit committee (or a parent looking for a program for your kid), spend enough time to know whether the person's got some common sense judgment before you buy. And then let 'em do their thing. Saves a lot of time and money on warning labels and a lot of printing costs on rule books. So yeh did a BB gun class. No harm, no foul. Yeh had enough sense not to run a shotgun class with cubs, and enough sense not to turn the class or the BB guns over to the ladies you were talkin' about who didn't have the skills to handle 'em on their own. And yeh had enough sense to keep learnin', and reconsider whether yeh should do a BB thing on da unit level. That kind of safety actually works, eh? Tryin' to legislate against this, that, or the other place not to tie an alligator doesn't, nor does bein' so risk adverse that yeh stop lettin' kids have pets because somebody somewhere might buy an alligator. Don't blame da lawyers, though. Lawyers are ethics-bound to give yeh the best possible legal advice, eh? That ain't the best possible how-to-raise-a-kid advice, or how-to-run-a-scoutin'-program advice. Up to you to figure that out, and tell legal critters where to stick it when it's appropriate. Same as if da best possible car advice is to buy a Lamborghini, but it ain't the best possible marriage advice. Don't blame your divorce on da fellow who sold you the car. That was all you! Beavah

Yah, cheffy, before everybody goes bonkers I reckon that you're just hearin' "one of those rumors", eh? Councils really don't have the authority to tell unit leaders what to do at that level. Leastways, not unless they want to significantly increase their liability exposure. More to the point, any decent SE will let folks blather on a bit if that's what it takes to make 'em feel better, but then steer 'em in a more productive direction. No one-on-one is all about preventin' opportunities for (and false accusations of) physical abuse. Two deep is all about makin' sure yeh have a backup adult on an outing in case somethin' happens to the first adult (and to make sure da solo adult has a "check" on judgment calls). Neither have any application to remote communication. Beavah

I've found that generally if they are not prior military or Scouts, then they don't have the outdoor skills. So training is key Problem is if they're adults and don't yet have da skills, odds are they also don't have the interest, eh? One of da things I see happenin' is that there are a lot of young adults participatin' in outdoor recreation - bike clubs, paddling clubs, ski groups, lots of young adults in climbing and snowboardin' and skating and such. But they don't volunteer with us as much as they used to. BSA isn't associated in their minds with da sort of fun outdoor pursuits they enjoy. That's mostly not a conscious rejection of Scoutin' (though there's a bit of that from our poor rep as campers or for political reasons). Mostly it's that we're just not "present" in the outdoor community as fellow outdoorsmen. So rather than think of us, they volunteer with church camps or climbing gym youth programs or that sort of thing. That's a big loss, eh? Can't seem to get anyone to pay attention to it, though. Da professional crowd and most of the council and regional volunteers tend to be doin' what le Voyageur talks about, eh? They don't move in da outdoors communities either. Beavah

Yah, welcome CPAMom! Boy Scoutin' is a great thing to get your young lad involved in. As he looks at troops, most boys will find a group of lads and adults that he seems to "click" with and just like best. That's often the best way to go. Each troop has different "character", dependin' mostly on their adult leaders. Older, "well-rounded" adults tend to do more car camping, with work projects and big fires and lots of tales. Younger fellows or those with a lot of backpackin' stamina and skill will tend to run troops with more adventurous activities. Amateur historian adults will run delightful trips like the ones yeh mention to Shiloh. That's how "Adult Relationships" in Scoutin' works, eh? Adults share their interests and experiences with boys. What they do as a troop matters less than how they do it, eh? Remember, a trip with a group of peers and friends and some adult scouters is going to be a very different experience than a trip with the family. So even though you could take your boy sightseeing in Atlanta or backpacking the Alps or whatnot, it's not going to be the same for him as if he does it with his fellow scouts as a co-leader or significant contributor to the trip. Dat's why yeh choose to involve your boy in Scouting. Not because you can't take him camping, but because he gets so much more from having a broader range of experiences with other youth and adults, each of whom offers different perspectives that complement and reinforce da lessons you want him to learn as a young man. So I know great troops who mostly just car-camp within a couple hours' drive of home base, and I know some great troops that seem to be goin' on really challenging outdoor adventures every other week, and some that are deeply involved in outdoor citizenship and service work. Each of 'em serves a range of kids that seems to "fit" with that style, eh? If there's anything to recommend, though, it's that yeh always do what yeh can to send your lad on "long" trips. Weekends are nice, but the longer and deeper a lad digs into the outdoors without interruption the stronger the impact is. So always send your lad to summer camp, right from the start. When there's a chance to do another long trip or a second week of camp or a Jamboree or an OA Conclave, take it! When he's of da right age and rank and there are longer high adventure trips or long cruises available that he's interested in, send him! Those trips build lasting confidence, skills, and friendships better than anything. Welcome to Boy Scoutin'! Beavah

Don't sweat the small stuff, bchan. Just take the lads on somethin' with the Boy Scouts where they get to have fun, be successful, and all that. Somethin' that lights their fire. Beavah

Yah, that didn't take long, eh? http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=7251512 She had electrical power problems and had to stop before she'd gone a week? Too bad she wasn't in Scouting, she would have learned to "be prepared" rather than rush a departure on a dangerous voyage in order to go record-seekin'. Beavah

I don't think it is counter to the program for the adults to let the Patrol Leader's Council know that the expectations of the Troop are that there be more program, more patrol level activities, more hands-on stuff, etc. Yah, hmmmm... I think it is. Counter to da program, that is. I think if the adults are so unimaginative about how to help the lads develop a better program they probably need to think about some other volunteer gig. Telling 'em your expectations is about the least creative, least effective way to go about it. The art of Scoutin' isn't about telling the scouts stuff, eh? It's about setting up da circumstances so that the boys are likely to learn - by example, by experience, by natural consequences, by reflectin'. I like Mark a lot, but boy-run-into-the-ground or "Lord of the Flies" or any of that malarkey doesn't really exist, eh? It's just what adults use as excuses for doin' something they know they shouldn't be doin'. Just that they don't have the imagination or experience yet to figure out what they should be doin' instead. So if the lads just want to play games with meeting time, I think that's super, eh? A wise adult will think up an awesome game, one that requires some knowledge and some learning to do well. She'll recruit key lads into playin' by challengin' 'em, they'll play and struggle and get good, and they'll bring their friends in to play more and harder because now they understand how that thing is done and how much fun it is. Boys also love challenges, eh? A wise adult might also say "I bet yeh can't..." Make it a real bet, and a real challenge. Nuthin' gets kids goin' like someone tellin' 'em that they can't do something. All kinds of 'em tricks, eh? Or, yeh can lecture 'em that good scouts work on advancement, hand out da books, and tell 'em to read chapter 3 for homework for the "hands on" bandaging lesson next week. That's what we call adult-run-into-the-ground . Beavah

Or, one can simply refer to the Troop Committee Guidebook or the Cub Scout Leader Book, which have a good process already spelled out. Yah, FScouter, I wish it were the case, eh? But they really don't. In order to accommodate all da CO variation out there, the publications are far too vague on the process. They're particularly vague on da mechanisms for actually making the decision, eh? Do yeh vote, do yeh struggle for consensus, do yeh give up and send a list of 3 to da COR for him/her to choose etc. Does da committee do it, or a steering committee? The publications also don't specify any "rules of order" either. In that environment, it's possible for anyone with an agenda to try to hijack the process, eh? Happens over and over again. Causes no end of unit conflicts and more than a few boys and families lost to da program. WestCoast, I think you need to take a deep breath and think about things for a minute, along with da other adults. The process was poor, but a shootout over it when a man thinks he's been appointed cubmaster is only goin' to end in bodies on the floor. There's no way for it not to be seen as "personal." So the question is whether yeh can live with it and work around it, and then put in place a better structure for next year. If there's any way to do that, I'd encourage yeh to be the adults in the room and do that. Your active DL dads can continue to do what they've been doin'. Folks can step up and volunteer to organize and run meetings for the CM. At the end of the school year, someone else can volunteer to be CC for the coming year. A few of you can sit down with da COR and establish some bylaws or procedures for how to make recommendations/select key unit leaders. If yeh work around things and put some structure in place, you'll make positive changes for da pack, set things up for a successful year and a better transition next time, and keep it fun for everybody. Most of da time, that's better than makin' it personal and leavin' a bunch of wreckage. Beavah

...apparently, the adults (read parents) of the boys are not as confident in the abilities and decision making capabilities of their son's as what you apparently are. Yah, of course not. The lads change so fast! And parents have long memories. They remember the little kid of 4 years ago like it was yesterday, and the immature lad of last year like it's now. Moms more than dads, but yeh see it in both in different ways. Outsiders who don't have da same history, or who work with an age group of boys and get to know what they can generally expect of that age group (like coaches and teachers and long-time SMs) tend to do better at gettin' capabilities right. Just natural, eh? Yeh see the same thing in reverse sometimes too, eh? A lad can be really immature for his age, but the parent who doesn't have a group of same-age boys to compare to, thinks their lad is ahead of the game. Beavah

Yah, folks here sometimes have some unusual notions about leader selection. Now it is entirely true that da process can be set up by the CO however the CO wants it done, eh? Might be a religious calling, might be a committee election, might be selection by lot. Generally speakin', however, the BSA recommends that either the unit committee or an ad hoc subcommittee do the selecting and recruiting of new leaders, and recommend 'em for approval to the COR/IH. If the CO expressed no particular preference, I would expect the unit committee to make the decision and pass it along to the COR for approval. Though personally, in bigger units I sorta like a nominatin' committee to do it, with a follow-up committee approval. Makes for more frank and private discussion. When yeh get this sort of thing goin' on, it's best if someone be the adult in the room, eh? Unless there are some real problems in da pack, I'd be reluctant to go against the recommendation of the current CM, ACM, and CC, eh? Odds are they know the boys, the families, the adults, and the BSA program better than anyone else. At the same time, yeh thank the fellows for all their hard work and their input, tell 'em you value their recommendation, but it's important that all of the committee discuss it and buy in. And then yeh go ahead and do that in good and cheerful humor. Maybe yeh turf it to a subcommittee, or maybe yeh have an approval vote or somethin' else. Keep it focused on havin' a fair and mature method of choosing/screening or confirming a choice, rather than on personalities and individuals. This is one of those areas where havin' Bylaws in place ahead of time avoids this kind of silly argument, because it spells out a process and makes it harder for a couple folks to hijack it. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, generally da SM introduces a lad to the EBOR and then hangs around, eh? That can be particularly reassuring when it's a district-level EBOR where the scout typically won't know anybody on the Board. Also helps a bit if yeh get a Board that goes off its rocker and the SM has to gently or firmly step in to get 'em back on track. Lots of times an EBOR will ask one or two questions of the SM at the end. Sometimes it's helpful to know how a troop does something, eh? Particularly when reviewin' the boy's project. Beavah

Yah, welcome phips! You'll find a lot of BSA scoutin' stuff here that you'll just laugh at, eh? We Americans are a pretty uptight and legalistic bunch. You'd be amazed if yeh came to visit So jump right in and offer your perspective on stuff, eh? Helps wake us up to all da different ways scouting is practiced across the world and shake us out of our navel-gazing bad habits. And if yeh can't make any sense out of something we're talking about, jump in and ask what in the world we're talking about! Beavah

Yah, Buffalo, responsibility and leadership aren't things that the lads come with, eh? They have to be learned/taught. My question for yeh is what are you doing for TLT? I think yeh should take a good look at that and try to beef it up. Take 'em on their own mini-high-adventure long weekend campout where yeh make 'em really work on stuff, reinforce skills, and get to see and taste what it feels like when everyone makes a real commitment to each other, workin' hard. Too often "counseling" a scout means an adult goin' "Blah blah blah blah blah..." Nobody really learns that way, and we're just foolin' ourselves when we think it helps. Yeh have to build in 'em the experiences of success and failure, so that they learn the lessons, eh? Yeh can't talk it to 'em. Leadership is too complex a thing. So what are yeh doin' now, and what can you do to really improve your TLT experience? Beavah

Pope Pius is the Older Scout/Sea Scout/ Exploring/Venturing religious award Yah, thanks for da correction, Eagle92. Seems like a Catholic scouter from their relationships committee told me that the materials for da Pius medal expected/required a coed discussion, eh? So I figured they were limiting it to Venturing these days. On reflection, there of course would be a lot of other ways to have that kind of discussion. Beavah

In any case, my contingent is fairly firm with our decision, and we don't see any reason to let the PLC decide on something we've already come to a consensus on. Yah, but then if yeh didn't include da PLC, yeh haven't really come to a consensus, have you? Leastways, not if yeh still believe in those pesky Methods of Scouting like Youth Leadership and Adult Relationships. Beavah

Yah, somewhere I once had a bunch of questions that I used with SMs and Committees to see if they really allowed youth leadership or whether they were just payin' lip service. Can't seem to lay my hands on it right now, so I'll try to remember just a few. 1) Do the youth leaders sign off on advancement requirements? 2) Does the PLC set the calendar? 3) Does the PLC set the budget for the troop, and determine how program money is spent? 4) Can the Quartermaster dispose of or purchase gear on his own? 5) Do the youth leaders have keys to the building/trailer/locker? 6) Can the PLC add, subtract, or rewrite troop "policy" for youth members? 7) Do the adults ever touch a stove/pot/shopping cart, or are the youth responsible for their own meals? 8) Does da SPL present the program to the Committee or does the SM? 9) How many times in the last year have yeh knowingly hiked or driven miles out of your way because the lads took a wrong turn and you let 'em? 10) If a boy suffers a minor injury, who does the first aid? 11) When an event is canceled, who makes the decision? Feel free to add others! Beavah

Don't let anyone tell you you can't. OK, then, better close your eyes and plug your ears . Yeh can, of course. Now da question is whether you should. Generally speakin', youth awards are for the youth, eh? If yeh read the Insignia Guide, it says: With the exception of the Cub Scout badges of rank and Arrow Points, members wear only the insignia that show their present status in the movement. Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered. Previously earned badges and insignianot representing present statusmake a fine display on a BSA red patch vest, a trophy hide or blanket, exhibited in the home of the recipient, or at functions where such a display is invited. (emphasis mine) So in da case of rrclark1, I think he'd only wear the adult religious award for his denomination (da St. George, I believe), reflecting his present status as an adult leader. Especially since that neater, cleaner uniform would be consistent with his tradition's emphasis on humility in addition to da BSA's guidance. Now some folks think that it's OK to be an example to youth along the trail by showin' you got da award they're goin' for. A reasonable argument can be made for that, eh? So rrclark1 in that case would wear his Ad Altare Dei and his Eagle, but not da other two. Wearin' a Cub Scout award as an adult Boy Scout leader gets a bit silly IMHO. Just bein' ostentatious for its own sake. Be a bit like your doctor wearin' a ribbon from his 5th grade science fair project on his lab coat. That having been said, there is also an informal tradition in Scoutin' to keep wearin' the capstone awards when yeh move up the chain (AOL, Eagle, Silver/Ranger/QM/Ace/etc.). Your mileage and your opinions may vary, eh? But I always discourage the adults from wearin' lots of excess baubles at Scout Sunday and other public appearances like that. Seems to take away from where the focus should really be - on the kids and on God. That proper focus is da image we want to convey to others, it seems to me. Beavah

Yah, fairly typical, MNBob, but by no means universal. Generally speakin', a scout troop is a sideshow for a CO. If they're a church, they're probably runnin' more than a dozen different ministries, and they naturally tend to focus on their big ones that involve money and paid staff. If they're a VFW or a PTO, their primary energies are directed elsewhere, unless yeh get a fellow (or lady) or two who really have an affinity for doin' youth stuff and make that their place in da Organization. All that is natural, eh? Scoutin' units tend to run on their own steam, so they don't require attention and therefore don't get any. And because they're runnin' on their own steam, they don't have the time or energy to maintain good contact with da CO, since they're busy doin' scouting. So yeh have to work at it, eh? DEs should take their CO visits seriously, but most don't. A lot of SEs don't really want to see the COs actively involved, eh? I think yeh try to build in a few things that make each side pay attention. 1. The CO should have some skin in the game. There should be a regular budget item in the COs budget for the unit. Whether they pay da registration fees for the unit and all adults, or support camperships, or buy equipment every year... something. 2. The unit should report formally to da CO annually at recharter time, in person and in writin'. List of accomplishments, list of challenges, numbers of members and events, and a review of the unit books. I think yeh should also have a real discussion about whether da CO wants to recharter, but then I'm a heathen. I think it should be a conscious, deliberate decision on a charter and on unit leadership every year. 3. The unit should do something by way of service to da CO 3-4 times per year, in uniform. Just to be "present", eh? To remind da folks in the CO that we're theirs. 4. Da IH and COR should be invited to sit on Eagle BORs for the unit. And maybe a couple of others, eh? Key people from the CO should always be invited to COHs, B&Gs, etc. 5. Da CO should invite the unit scouters to volunteer recognition events, and periodically honor 'em for their service. 6. In a CO that has a paid staff, the COR should be a paid staff member, not somebody pulled out of da unit. Paid staff folks have "access" to the CO in ways that an outside volunteer just doesn't, eh? Yeh should get da COR position written into someone's job description. 7. Wherever possible, da unit leader should be a member of the CO. Just makes for a much more natural "connection", eh? Mostly, I think the failure to get da COs more actively involved falls on the failures of the Commissioner Corps in general, and on da BSA professional staff. When yeh see disengaged COs, you can bet on weaknesses in both of those groups. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

If you want to keep your older Scouts participation up to your standard, give them a program they WANT to participate in. Yah, give 'em a place where they can hang out, shoot da breeze, don't have to do any work or "babysit" younger lads, where they can bully a kid here and there. No commitment, no honor, no growth, but yeh get a really big award and party at the end, and everybody talks about what a great example of American Youth you are. Sounds about right. All those pesky schools and sports and bands and clubs all expect lads to actually show up for the hard work of practice before they're even allowed to participate, let alone earn awards. They must not have any older boys, because havin' requirements is such an awful thing. Da only reason guys play basketball on the team is because they're forced to by big, mean, ugly adults. They should learn from us and give out Varsity Letters and Diplomas if a boy just registered for the club, and promised to do his homework but had other things to do and skipped out. That should help their membership numbers out, eh? Ours are doin' so well, after all. The kinds of programs boys want to participate in are the kinds of programs that have high expectations, where they work hard, where they get good at stuff, where they can trust the members of the team to also be good at stuff. Where they are challenged, where they overcome, where they really achieve, and where only real achievement is honored. It's just that showing commitment, working hard, those aren't natural things for lads. They have to be taught and learned, eh? We'd all like to be the stars of the game without goin' to practice, to be Honored by the Court without needin' to camp in the rain or really commit to leading a patrol. A smart lad will scam it if the adults in da program don't have enough vision or guts to actually teach him real values. Shame on us if we're not teachin' 'em that commitment and service really matter. Beavah

Yah, Burning Spear, congratulations to your son and the other lads, eh! And thank you for your service to the program. I think there's always this thing where we program volunteers feel indispensable. Happens to SMs the most. It's a bad thing for units and for families. Somebody else can do da formal ceremony stuff for the committee, and the lad for whom you were a mentor will see you as that mentor no matter what you wear. You should be proud dad. It will mean more to your son and to you and to your wife to have you at her side. Moms get teary during these things sometimes, eh? Be sittin' with your family, not the committee that night. Beavah

I don't think any organization should charter a BSA unit if their own membership policies are more liberal than that of the BSA. Yah, why's that, Gern? If you're a school district, yeh can get grants that only serve one segment of your population, like Special Ed or the kids livin' below da poverty line who can get free lunch. All kinds of programs are targeted to subpopulations. So if yeh are an organization that serves kids, yeh might sponsor both a Boy Scout Troop and an American Heritage Girls troop, even though your organization's membership is more "liberal" (coed) than either da BSA's or AHG's. Yeh find different programs to target services to different members of your membership. Beavah

I believe that what Vol is referring to is a belief, in some conservative Christian circles, that the "establishment clause" is a fiction made up by liberals Yah, Lisabob, then you're readin' subtext into vol's statement that I'm not, eh? In fact, that's an awful lot of subtext to be pullin' from Vol's sentence or two. Perhaps your own prejudice to his writing is showing? I read him as referrin' to the BSA's, not the government's, right to expressive and religious association. The issues of da rights of corporate persons is an interestin' one constitutionally. It has historically been a weaker protection than natural persons, though the trends are strongly the other way as government regulation has become more intrusive. Beavah