Beavah

He's only twelve? Holy smoke! Yah, pushin' a lot of Eagle required MBs on a lad at that age is da wrong way to go. Quite frankly, a lot of 'em are book-work type stuff where it's best to be in high school to work through 'em and get the most out of 'em. Personal management works best when yeh have a job. Cit World works best when you've already had some world history and are readin' the news on your own. On and on. Pushin' a 12 year old on Eagle is like pushin' a 12 year old on a high school diploma or why he doesn't start work on AP Chemistry right away. Only goin' to frustrate the kid and make him hate it. Beavah

The honesty deals with the fact that he withheld information that may have pertained to getting his Eagle, he was aware of it being questionable and went behind the scenes to check it out. Then once he found out what he needed to know then he went public and "in-your-face" with other scouts. When he was confronted by other scouts on his Facebook account, he lodged a complaint about cyber-bulling to everyone trying to discredit other scouts. Yah, jblake, I'm an old fellow and easily confused. But I'm not sure what about his sexual orientation pertains to the lad earning Eagle. Orientation is orientation, not activity, eh? Yah, sure, if the lad is having sex (doesn't really matter who/what with) with folks, then that becomes an issue. But to my mind as a conservative Christian fellow, orientation isn't a sin. It's a challenge and a burden. It's what yeh do about those feelings and attractions that counts. Now da other stuff all just strikes me as a rebellious teen acting out in inappropriate ways. Declaring he's gay (some teens do that just for da thrill of the argument, eh?). Goin' back and forth on facebook with friends. Playing da cyberbullying card after perhaps provoking the argument. All just strike me as ordinary rebellious teen lookin' for people who care. I wouldn't remove him, I wouldn't push him away. I'd go out of my way to be a friend, mentor, and scoutmaster to the lad. I'd have some words with the others and look into da cyberbullying thing, too, so that the other kids learn by word and example how to treat people who are strugglin' with personal issues or stresses. Ordinary scoutin' stuff. Only pitfalls to be aware of are da behaviors of the adults. Be wary and watchful for da reactions of parents of other boys, and anticipate 'em when you can. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, but it's hard for lads to really get into most of those unless they have family contacts, eh? More likely they try on some of da trappings here and there, buy a T-shirt, start a look-alike group that apes the "look" of some edgy organization. Just the way most teenagers try out everything from philosophy to new hairstyles to black clothing. Yeh treat such stuff like a scoutmaster, eh? You engage with the boy as an example, mentor, and friend. That doesn't mean yeh shouldn't respond more firmly to behaviors, eh? Just not da other stuff. Racist comments, picking fights, stealing and whatnot all merit a response, which might include being removed from the troop. No different for homo- or hetero- sexual behaviors on a troop trip, eh? Lewd comments, crude gestures, PDA, or "gettin' it on" would all merit an appropriate response. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Do heterosexual boys feel unsafe being in a classroom with heterosexual girls? Yah, to be fair, we don't have heterosexual boys tenting with heterosexual girls as a matter of policy, eh? Too much room for misinterpretation for da most part; some small but significant room for temptation. Not really a "danger" thing except to risk of reputation or STDs. Can't see why the same wouldn't apply here. Too much room for misinterpretation and all that. Gotta agree with Lisabob on the guilt-by-association thing, too. Just adults adding drama to somethin' that could be as ordinary as supporting a friend, being curious, just being a teenager... That's why da BSA takes a much gentler and more nuanced stance on scouts "being" homosexual, eh? Tryin' to avoid bad adult behaviors toward lads who are just kids in need of understanding and support. Beavah

Yah, up to you and the Mrs. And harder for you as da non-bio-dad. FWIW, you're right. A lad who is allowed to have fun in Scouting, do fun badges, help out on others' Eagle projects and all that will love scouting, love the outdoors, and is really likely to eventually discover that getting Eagle is fun, too, and worth his effort. Best tactic as a parent is to praise him for da Scouting stuff he's doing and the badges he's earning, whatever they are. Reinforces doing well rather than reinforcing other stuff. But in a marriage, it doesn't always pay to be right, eh? Sometimes best yeh can do is buy the lad a little space is all. Hopefully that's enough. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... evry, I don't think yeh have the right of that, eh? A donation to a unit is not a donation to the BSA or the council, and yeh can't claim it using the BSA's or the local council's 501©(3) status. Just not kosher. Yah, for small donations probably it might be overlooked by da IRS in an individual's audit, but it could get the unit/CO in a world of hot water. Lots of small donations add up to big fraud and tax evasion on the part of the unit/CO. You don't want to go there. My guess is that SunnyD's unit isn't chartered by a church, since da tax status of churches is pretty clear. Probably they're chartered to a 501©(7) not-for-profit club like a BPOE or such. Folks get that confused all of the time, eh? There are a lot of different not-for-profit entities (part 501©) that are income tax exempt, but only a couple (namely (3)) that are charitable and allow the donor to take a deduction as well. So if SunnyD's unit is expecting to be taking in sizable contributions, they'll have to go the incorporation/formal association 501©(3) determination letter route. SunnyD, Kahuna is correct in that all that stuff does need an attorney to guide yeh through it, and that carries some expense. Also has some costs every year in maintaining records, making reports, audits and such. It's a lot of work and cost unless yeh really need it. Keep in mind, too, that if your gross receipts are small, yeh can be a 501©(3) without a determination letter. It's based on a three year rolling average of income. For a cub pack, yeh might be under that. Most boy scout troops aren't. Beavah

Don't confuse da ranger electives with what is allowable. There is no caliber limit on Venturers using handguns, even though the Ranger elective specifies .22s. Common sense and da judgment of a competent instructor should suffice. As an aside I hadn't noticed the bit in the Ranger elective before. Pretty odd, given da wide range of firearms allowed for other parts of the elective. Beavah

Yah, there are several things here, eh? I think generally speakin', you trust people with small things first, then bigger things. An 11-year-old ADHD lad with a wad of tickets? Probably not the best choice until he's demonstrated trustworthiness with keepin' track of other things of less value. A 15-year-old Life Scout? Probably a safe bet. Problem is that when yeh add parents into the mix, it gets complicated. Some parents are busier/more distracted/less trustworthy than their kids, eh? So while occasionally havin' the parents involved will allow you to give tickets to that 11-year-old ADHD lad, it'll be the exception rather than da rule. And sometimes, if the parents are involved with how the 15-year-old Life Scout handles the tickets, they might get lost. Yeh gotta go with your prior experience, eh? I know some troops where giving the kids the tickets wouldn't be a problem at all. They'd pair up older and younger boys from their patrols for selling; the older boys would handle the money and the younger boys would bat their big brown eyes and do the sales . I know some troops where the parents would take the tickets and yeh would see returns of less than 50%. If your troop doesn't have da "trustworthy" thing down yet, no point being naive about it. You're at where you're at, and yeh have to take that into account intelligently. I reckon it's a fine thing to teach boys to be trustworthy, but yeh have to do it with a plan, some reserve for contingencies, etc. And yeh might want to start with somethin' that has a bit less risk (or not, depending on da margins on this and what fraction of your annual budget it is). Other thing is that da longer the sale goes on for, the more people get distracted. Try to keep it short and sweet... maybe only a week. Or yeh can break it up into smaller timeframes and issue limited tickets for a timeframe. For example, one way to go is to get everybody together in the morning, hand out tickets, have 'em go out selling, and then collect receipts at the end of the day. Shame on your council folks for da high-pressure tactics and surprises, though. That's not what we're about. Yeh should be sure to have your COR offer that firm feedback to da SE and council officers. Beavah

Yah, what everybody else said Irate parents yelling at volunteers is a feature of the modern world. If we're honest, I even remember it being an occasional feature of the ancient world . It's like camping in the rain, or da nights when a storm blows through and flattens a tent or two. Not much fun when it's happening, a story to share afterward, but generally it's da cost of going camping. Only way to avoid getting rained on is to never go outside. Welcome to full membership in da ranks of adult leaders! Beavah

Yah, well. I'm not sure about Democrats. B

Yah, I reckon there's enough drama in teenagers' lives without adults adding to it. Sometime before they start lookin' for a job I hope the lads learn to be a bit more circumspect about what they post on Facebook to the world, but mostly that's just teen drama, too. My favorites are the geeky white boys who play "gangsta" on Facebook. English teachers also tell me that yeh have to read student journals with a healthy grain of salt (or shot of Tequila or somesuch ). So don't add to da drama. If this merits anything, it's probably a quiet, supportive conversation with the lad. I've met more than one 16 year old who has declared himself to be gay, (and others who are atheist, and ...) only to go to college, find a wife, and be happily hetero. And some that go da other way, too. At that age, lots of kids don't know; they just have worries and questions. And drama, always drama. So don't do the drama (have I said that enough times yet? ). Just be a Scoutmaster to the kid. Beavah

Your posts wreak of "I got mine, now get rid of the program." Sorry if they come off that way. I thought I made it fairly clear that I didn't attend many of my awards ceremonies, don't wear all my knots, and really could care less about the things. My attitude is da same as sherminator's. You could kill adult advancement tomorrow and I'd turn in my knots, beads, medals and whatnot without a second thought. If I could find 'em. So in terms of da Golden Rule, I reckon I'm consistent. Getting rid of the program is just more of the "no competition because kids' feelings will be hurt" nonsense that is ruining this country. Yah, we're not talkin' about kids, eh? We're talkin' about adults. Is scouting service really all about adult competition? Really? That's very telling. Unlike you, I have nominated several people for awards, and I enjoy seeing them receive them. It truly is better to give than receive. Try it sometime, and maybe you will have a new appreciation for the awards. Like I said, I much prefer the personalized recognitions, offered by those who are closest to the scouter and mean the most to him/her. I encourage and set that up all the time. Gettin' a patch from a bunch of council or district folks they don't know that well or care about doesn't strike me as being enough of a reward for the measure of love and service a dedicated scouter provides. Unless, I suppose, if they think that scouting for kids is all about adult competition. Beavah

Our council's instructions for the Eagle packet states: "It is BSA practice to assume all months have 30 days for calculationg(sic) rank advancement and leadership requirements". Yah, dat's a new one, but even with February in the mix it works out. I've always seen and done 6/15 to 12/15. Six months. If the previous BOR was on June 15, the earliest the next one can be is December 15. Never had that rejected. I wouldn't trust the 30 day thing without confirmation. Though it may actually be how ScoutNet computes it (who knows with that program! ), it still might flag when looked at by a human and create a problem. Beavah

Just like he has rank, merit badge, special patches (Paul Bunyan, World Conservation, etc.) to earn - so do I as a Scoutmaster. Yah, Adult Advancement. Thing is, Advancement is a method we use for children, eh? And for kids, generally it's a positive... except as we're discussing in da other thread the over-emphasis on Eagle may have become a negative. For adults, it's always looked like a negative to me. Just take a look at this thread, eh? Causes a lot of contention and misunderstanding. Yeh get some fellows who really are into it for themselves. Yeh have some who wear their medals out of thanks for those that nominated 'em or out of nostalgia. Yeh get others who come from outside of scoutin' who really do look down at the overly festooned, and a few who seek out the festooned. Some claim they wear knots for the boys, but really it's just a way of pointing to themselves during boy-conversations, rather than focusing on the boy. Others might be able to pull off those conversations. So da thing is a mess. It causes more contention than it's worth, and has at least as much downside as upside. Even before we get into cliques of folks nominating each other. Or how a lot of great scouters and those they hang with aren't "into" it and never nominate anyone, so that the awards don't really reflect all those with talent and experience. Besides, compared with da kid awards, most of da adult awards don't actually require us to demonstrate proficiency, eh? Yah, I'm on one side of this, eh? Figure that adults should be internally motivated by helpin' kids and not need the external motivation. But I reckon that even those who are strong supporters of adult awards recognize the substantial contentiousness and downside of da current system from the (multiple) threads on the topic. Why not just do away with it, and let real recognitions for outstanding adult volunteers be the more personalized things like I mentioned earlier? Other than the howling of those who are into such things for da wrong reason, I figure we'd do fine, and eliminate some of of the contention and separation between folks who should be workin' together on the kids' behalf. Beavah

Yah, it's da CO's call, eh? I think CO's should be more actively involved in selecting leaders, male and female, for their units. The CO having made it's call, now it's your call whether to stay in their unit. Yeh say your son has made new friends and likes it. Big question for you is whether yeh think it's the right place for him. Whether they share enough of your values for it to be a good fit for your family. You will never find a perfect troop. Every troop is goin' to do some things you disagree with or don't understand. So no matter where yeh go, there's goin' to be something you just have to smile and be tolerant of if yeh want your son to be involved in Scouting. There are other things that go against your core values or your personal needs in a way where it's just never goin' to be a good fit. It'll bug you and frustrate you in ways that interfere with your son's scouting, and your son may be exposed to viewpoints you disagree strongly with. Only you can decide which this is. Beavah

So, I know this has been a long, philosophical post, and I hope I didn't put anyone to sleep. I guess my question is - what's the best way to balance the above factors? Yah, I reckon that a few (shelves of) books have been devoted to that question, eh? Philosophy of Law and all that. For me, I always try to remember that da law is a human-made thing that is meant to serve people, not the other way 'round. Only one law deserves true Obedience, and that's Divine Law. Yeh don't steal because stealing is wrong, not because it's against the laws of your state. And even when stealing isn't against the law (like makin' complex derivatives and sellin' 'em as investment grade stuff ala Enron or Goldman or AIG), it's still wrong. So obey divine law. Da rest is all subject to the dictates of personal conscience. Like Frank17 says, some laws are serious and should be followed almost all the time (no committin' homicide), while others are just minor infractions that yeh might choose to violate for practical purposes and pay an additional tax (like lettin' your parking meter run out). Some laws have good intent (like a weapons-free school law), but still need to be ignored in some cases in order to be just (like when the kid brings a butter knife to school). Some laws don't apply to everyone (like HIPAA), and some things just aren't laws (like BSA program materials) and shouldn't be treated like they are. I like Horizon's bit. We want scouts to develop well-informed personal consciences, eh? That means we have to talk to 'em about WHY we do things, and how to make good judgments. One must always exercise some degree of judgment about obedience to any human or human-propagated law. As for BSA stuff, I reckon I've been around too many decades. I've seen the program materials change too many times to keep count, and I've been involved with too much international scoutin'. There's no one right way to do scouting well, and even da BSA is constantly rethinkin' things and changing them up to respond to conditions. That's because we're about service to boys. If yeh focus on service to boys and follow divine law, yeh can't go too far wrong. Beavah

Yah, jblake, I think if we did away with all of the adult medals and awards, units and districts would still find ways of recognizing scouters whom they felt merited recognition. It'd probably be more personal and meaningful. I remember when one well-loved SM moved on due to a change of employment, da kids and families all chipped in and bought the fellow a new backpack, then embroidered the names of each of his scouts all over it. Not a dry eye in the house when that was brought out. Sure beat a knot. Gee, did it take receiving a dozen or more awards to make you realize how much you dislike them? That's not what I would call "quick", Beavah. Yah, I'm not too bright, am I? Actually, didn't care much for 'em from the start. Cared less for 'em over time. Other folks kept puttin' me up for the things. Only mentioned it here because in half of these threads when someone critiques adult awards they get jumped on for being louts who probably never earned any awards themselves and are jealous . Figured I'd run that off in advance. Do I nominate other folks? Not usually. For unit leaders who deserve recognition, I encourage somethin' like I mentioned above. Same deal for district or council folks who do things for kids. For district and council folks who deserve an attaboy for administrative stuff, I take 'em out for beverage of their choice. Beavah

Interestin' change of tack on da thread. I started talkin' mostly about unit folks. Yeh see very few "bad" GOBN's at the unit level. In fact, I can't really think of any. Occasionally yeh see a district that has become stale. Old fellows who have hung on out of fellowship with each other but have become too disconnected from units and service. Happens enough to be recognizable. And since district service is a very optional thing, it tends to be self-perpetuating, as da service-minded unit folks just stay away. No bad intent on anybody's part, just a bit stale is all. Awards are a different beasty. I confess I really dislike adult advancement and awards. I think it sends da wrong message and attracts the wrong sort of people to the uniform. Folks who are a bit more in it for their own ego needs than in it to serve the kids. I've received a dozen or more of those knots and medals (I don't even actually know the number anymore). Missed my DAM presentation (spent the evening helping a unit instead). Went to a silver critter, and almost got up and left. Bunch of long-winded whoopla and self-congratulatory malarkey, with not a kid mentioned or present. Avoided other silver beasties after that like da plague. Get enough of that pomp and foorah in my professional life. Scouting is not about us, and if we spend more time celebrating a DAM award than celebrating a Tenderfoot then I reckon we've lost our way. Nuthin' quite toasts my oaties like a pack Blue & Gold that spends more time on adult acknowledgments than it does on kids' awards. Da rewards of scouting are the growth of boys, and da tales we share with them and with other fellas (and ladies) who share in that great endeavor. So maybe a version of Eagledad's question is appropriate here, too: What would it be like if we did away with all adult awards? Beavah

Yah, I'm thinkin' that once upon a time, we used ranks and merit badges just as tools. Little games and tricks to help lads set goals and work harder than they ordinarily would for our recognition. Da key is "our recognition", eh? The boys want the men they respect to recognize 'em as fellow men. Somewhere along da line in a lot of programs and people's minds, ranks and merit badges (and especially The Rank) became the goal. That doesn't work well. Our real goals are to build the lads like the one jblake talks about, eh? The man who doesn't do things for the bling, but because he cares... and keeps on doin' those things long after the bling is no longer an issue. In fact, an ideal Eagle Scout to my mind is often a lad who doesn't really care about "getting" Eagle Scout. He just cares about God, his nation, and his community enough to lead and sacrifice and work hard. When we make advancement the goal, we spoil da real goal. Because if advancement is the goal, there are all kinds of ways to manipulate to try to get there. Like Merit Badge Events and T-2-1 in a year programs and active = registered and all that. Fulfill the requirements, not become a good man. Sorta like the difference between the goal being to work hard (thereby earning money) and the goal being to earn money. When the goal is just to earn money, working hard can easily fall by da way side. After all, we deserve high pay and free retirement health care and all that, right? Says so in the requirements. I reckon we've already lost the fight on Eagle. Da thing has become a middle school award in a lot of people's minds, which means it really has no value for college admissions or employment. I hear a lot of folks who say "so what?" to Eagles on applications, and a few who treat it as a negative because their experience is that Eagles aren't go-getters. They expect to be spoon-fed, and have opportunities to advance set up for them. More telling, I meet a fair number of scouts who don't care about it because they feel it's a fake adult/little kid thing. Some of our best and brightest kids. Could be that da reason we see so many high schoolers drop out or drop away is related to that. I tell 'em all it's like a high school diploma. Overall, it's a good thing, but there are good and bad high schools, and even some paper degrees out there. But I reckon it would be a lot nicer if da capstone award really resembled somethin' that was a major challenge to a high school aged young man ready to go off into the world. Somethin' that really reflected that we felt the fellow wearing it was a respected fellow adult. Maybe we let Eagle be the 8th/9th grade award, and create somethin' new with real cachet as the new capstone for high schoolers. Beavah

Yah, interestin' question. I think, in terms of program, it would be a net positive overall. It would take us back to our roots a bit, and allow us to return to da core virtues of the program. I agree with Eagle92, some adult-led advancement-oriented units would be completely lost. I see that as a good thing. Over time, some new shibboleth would rise in its place, of course. But maybe for a while, scoutin' could be about children and the outdoors again, eh? Leastways, it would cut down on the paperwork and arguments. Beavah

They boys do a pretty good job of deciding what to do. As far as keeping up with all the potential conflicts and holidays and what not, they're still a work in progress (but that's what we're trying to help with). Yah, of course they are still a work in progress. So are we adults for that matter . Difference is as adults we're allowed to step up, make mistakes, accidentally double-schedule, forget our anniversaries or whatnot. And pay the consequences. And figure out how to pay more attention. (Actually never missed Mrs. Beavah's birthday or anniversary. Paid a secretary very well to make sure ). I reckon your scouts will always be a work in progress if yeh keep having mommy and daddy fix their schedules for 'em. Beavah

A lot of the conversation in this thread is discussing "when did the scouts join, who are the scouts, are you related to the scouts..." None of these are requirements for advancing in rank. I am a "by the rules" kind of guy (my father is a judge). If the rules say a Scout may advance after completing XYZ requirements, then I believe it is contrary to the BSA guidelines to make it harder to advance. Yah, then I think you're not understandin' Scouting quite yet, markrvp. As someone who occasionally deals with da law, let me tell you that scouting and raising kids more generally has nothing to do with rules and how we conduct trials in court. Kids are a lot more dynamic and complimicated than a dispute over a building code (and those are complicated enough)! If anything, scouting is like parenting, eh? Or some other big thing we do with kids. Yeh can't think of it like it's a set of rules. Advancement, in particular, is just a kids' game. It's a fun tool we use to help some kids grow. It's not our focus or what we're really about, and when it becomes da primary focus of adults (or youth), then odds are we're doin' it poorly. I think yeh should think of Advancement like a video game. Yeh can go at your own pace, try and try until yeh make the next level with no real penalty for trying. It's fun. But like a video game, if it takes over most of a boy's scouting time, that's too much. A wise parent or scouter will tell the boy to cut back, or make up new "rules" like only 1 hour a day, or no game until yeh do everything you're capable of in your POR. We don't care about kids advancing or making the next level in the game. We just care about 'em growin' as young men. That's how good scouting, and good parenting, is done. Glad things seem to be movin' forward with some new ideas in your troop! Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, MattR. Da life of a SM has its ups and downs, eh? Sometimes yeh get the paycheck, sometimes it's a long grind. Most of da really good SMs I know have written a resignation letter at least once in their careers, then stuck it out to another high, or another seven. A bit like married life, eh? For those lads that you don't feel like you're reaching or helping right now, you're not. They're in a position where the other things in their life are muddling up your message or takin' more of their energy or even draggin' 'em down. Family, school, girlfriend, other stresses. Through all those things, having you and scoutin' out there as solid ground and another constant in their life does matter, eh? Yeh just might not see it quite yet. It's great when yeh can plant seeds and nurture shoots and hang around for da harvest. That's just not goin' to happen for every kid, though. Sometimes yeh have to be content planting seeds, and trusting that somewhere down the line the seed you planted will sprout, maybe be nurtured by a college professor or a kind boss, maybe even lay dormant until it blossoms for a wife and a son of his own, eh? And remembers that old SM who cared about him, and gee, I want to care about my kid the way that SM did for me.... yeh never know. But I would venture one gentle piece of advice to yeh. Let go of the Eagle thing. It seems to be takin' up too much of your focus. See each boy for the young man he is, not the award that he might get. Some of the very best men are Life for Life. Many scouts who never made First Class took lessons and friendships and a love of wild places away with 'em for their whole life. Advancement, even advancement to Eagle is just a tool we use, a game we play to trick boys into becoming men. Da measure of the man, and of your Scoutmastership, is not the number or the speed of your Eagles. It's the part of each fellow's mind that uses a lesson from scouting in his life, and a part of each young man's heart who cares for his faith, his country and his fellow man when others just look out for themselves. Beavah

Yah there's a long prior thread about "convoys", "keeping together", and being independent. No convoying means none of that silly stuff of driving in a line like you're a funeral procession or a military convoy goin' through Baghdad. Causes nothing but trouble. Now, in the boondocks and the hinterlands, keepin' together is a good thing. Lots of ways for a vehicle to get off track and get into real trouble. Buddy system is a good thing, with people, boats, and cars, even on da regular roads. Being independent is an OK thing, if it means that every driver should have a map and know where they're goin'. It's a bad thing if some driver goes off on his own trying to take a short cut, race to the site at 100mph, go too slow because they're afraid of highways or all that. So yeh find the sweet spot in the middle that works for your people and the area where yeh travel. Biggest thing as several have mentioned is to make sure everyone's on the same page in terms of expectations, and yeh have "backup plans" for re-establishing contact and communications. Beavah

Yah, well done on a hard case, oldsm. Kudos to you, to your scouts, and to your TC. Beavah