Beavah

Yah, sure @@TAHAWK. I’m wrong more than half da time, eh? Da Bobwhites disagree with me just about all the time, but then they’re flighty birds not sturdy, hardworkin’ furry critters. We can only operate on the facts given - hearsay to be sure, Nah. That’s a choice, eh? We all know that hearsay is completely unreliable. That’s why it’s not at all admissible in court. Knowin’ that, why choose to believe hearsay is “fact� That won’t do anybody any good. Which do yeh really think is more likely: That a teenager is bein’ a bit immature and rebellious, or that the Scoutmaster who has given the boy thousands of hours of his volunteer time over the past 5 years and who has da support of other kids and parents is out to get the lad for no reason other than spleen? That a parent is bein’ a bit of a helicopter, or that da SM, ASMs, CC, Advancement Chair, committee who are all volunteers and parents themselves have a grudge and want to just hurt the lad? So rather than just accept hearsay, I reckon it’s fine to insert a bit of judgment and start calmin’ things down and just askin’ more questions and gatherin’ information. Our goal as friends shouldn’t be to arm da rebellion and da helicopters and send ‘em off to war. It should be to provide calm perspective and bring folks back together again. Beavah

Yah, I like da new eye-roll emoji. Or is it this one? Please, folks, in lots of states Hazing is a crime. It has a legal definition. It can even be a felony. If yeh accuse a fellow scouter of hazing you are accusing them of committing a crime. That can be slander or libel. Yeh never, ever want to go there. Say that yeh don't like makin' kids do push-ups. Say that yeh think singin' is a bad idea. Say that yeh don't believe givin' kids KP is consistent with Scoutin' values, whatever. Don't say that something is "hazing" when it comes nowhere near da legal definition. It doesn't do any of us any favors, eh? Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... We're a youth program, eh? Not a law enforcement squad. There's no such thing as "jurisdiction". I reckon we all would agree that a lad dealin' methamphetamine at school should be kicked out of Scoutin', even if he wasn't dealin' on scout trips. Sometimes what we do in the rest of our lives means that we lose friends, alienate family members, lose our jobs, cost ourselves opportunities. Scoutin' is a volunteer community; yeh lose your ability to stay in da community when yeh lose the trust of the community. I reckon we'd all agree that if a lad hosts a squirt gun party at his backyard pool for his friends in his patrol, we aren't goin' to summon him to a G2SS court martial, strip off his patches, and kick him to da curb. Though it might make a funny YouTube video as a satire. Between those two end points, we have judgment calls, eh? And to some extent, we have organizations with different approaches. Churches like Stosh's might be more pastoral; schools like Dave in CO's might have "zero-tolerance" policies, even ones imposed by law. While I'm not at all a fan of "zero tolerance" polices myself, I also recognize that da reason such policies get enacted is because someone somewhere was way too lenient in their judgment while tryin' to be pastoral, eh? And they let us all down. So I reckon it's on us as scouters to use good judgment, eh? To be thoughtful about da real circumstances and the boy's needs, but to use "tough love" when appropriate as well. To care for the boy, but to care just as much or more about da example we set for all the other lads. To be mindful of scoutin's reputation and our own liability risk, and yet still hold our mission as da primary thing. We need to try to help boys, and at da same time not believe that only we or only Scouting can help a boy. Figurin' that out for each lad should scare us, eh? It should make us quiet and thoughtful. It should cause us to reach out for ideas and advice. It should make us question and pray. Da surest sign that we're doin' wrong is to be absolutely confident we're doin' right. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... This seems to have gone off da rails a bit, eh? For some reason, on internet forums and sometimes in real life, otherwise good scouters come to imagine that fellow scouters are somehow bad people who want to "get" kids or whatnot. Often because they listen to hearsay, or because da other scouter doesn't do it da same way they would. And we all know that only we know Da Right Way, eh? @@Stosh, I'm not convinced that just signin' off on a lad who shows up on your doorstep is really bein' helpful to the boy. I know it's not bein' helpful, courteous, or loyal to a fellow scouter. I wish you'd think about that some more. Teenagers are teenagers, eh? They try out all sorts of behaviors on da road to adulthood. One of 'em is "blame the adult" which is da teenage version of "you don't love me" (if yeh don't give me what I want). Another is "find da weakest link to manipulate". Kids of divorce get really good at the latter sometimes if the parents let 'em. Enabling or reinforcin' those behaviors does a lad no favors. That's why it's almost always da right choice to listen to a lad, let him vent, complain, cry, etc. but not agree that their teacher/coach/band director/scoutmaster is wrong, bad, out to get them, etc. Turn it around on 'em and put 'em back in da driver's seat. "Yah, sounds like that's really hard. What are yeh goin' to do about it?" Don't take the life lesson away from 'em by givin' 'em an easy adult-end-run path that you've cleared. That isn't kind. It's showin' 'em that you lack confidence in their ability. Trust 'em. Trust your fellow scouters. Send the lad back to the scouter who really knows the lad with the courage and strength to work hard and succeed. That's real kindness. Personally, I think it's hard to defend a lad who goes AWOL for 4 years in a program that claims to be teachin' character and citizenship. Yah, yah, there are always exceptions, eh? Like the lad mentioned whose family came apart... except in that case I'm wonderin' where the troop was for the boy and the family? In most cases, we all know that a lad is not showin' character or citizenship or loyalty by absenting himself from da program and then comin' back only to "get" the program's Big Award. What's more, it's exactly the wrong example for the younger boys in the troop. It does real harm to their development and to Scoutin'. If we're lawyerin' individual requirements and statements in kids' program books, we're doin' this scoutin' thing all wrong. Lawyerin' is inherently adversarial, and scoutin' really only functions through cooperation. Beavah

Yah, interestin' thread, @@blw2. There are probably as many ways of handlin' da finance and treasury procedures as there are troops, eh? First rule: Don't start out rockin' da boat. The troop has a method and approach it's used to, that folks trust and buy into (at least, I hope it does! If you're participatin' in a "rescue" that's a different kettle of fish). Havin' somethin' in place that folks trust is a good thing. Start with that, figure out how it works, just keep da train on da tracks for 6 months to a year. That's enough time for yeh to see the good things as well as the bad. Then make changes gradually, with buy-in. I think if a Star Scout or above can't be trusted with his friends' money or confidential information then there are other things in da troop that need to be fixed before yeh think about youth treasurers. By and large the boys are at least as sound as da adults that way. They might make more ordinary sorts of mistakes, and if yeh aren't careful that will set some parents off, but they aren't goin' to be stealin' or squealin'. Besides, they pretty much know da financial circumstances of their friends anyways. The embezzlement risks are adults who are experiencin' personal or financial stress, not kids. That havin' been said, nuthin' can start causin' adult dysfunction like messin' up the money. So yeh have to be very careful about puttin' kids in that line of fire. Helpin' with online bookkeepin' where you're lookin' over their shoulder seems like a great way to go. Even moreso if yeh can run any campership stuff separately. The kids may not mind, but by and large parents don't want other kids or other parents to know that sort of stuff. In answer to your other questions, I'd say most troops do not do anything with "petty cash". Checks and check reimbursements I'd say are most common, followed by debit cards. Adult leaders advancin' funds on their personal credit cards and gettin' reimbursed is also really common, especially in middle/upper-middle class areas. Beavah

At this point, the scouts aren't involved in budgeting at all, as far as I know. Yah, @@blw2, if yeh want somethin' to spur da conversation, take a look at the Journey to Excellence scorecard for troops, eh? Right there in black and white, highest points for the boys bein' involved in setting and monitoring the troop budget. Just remember, yeh have to pull, encourage, and inspire people, eh? Not push 'em. Even the best of us hate to be pushed. I'll see if I can find yer other thread on treasurers. Beavah

Yah, sometimes we get a bit crazy about helmets, eh? Not sure there've been any significant head injuries go-cartin'. I don't really know that industry though. To answer da original poster's question, though, the regular commercial go-cart course activity like what exists in many summer tourism areas is perfectly allowable. It's no longer unauthorized. From what I understand, there was never any intention to prohibit that sort of go-carting. No real safety issues there, and da liability falls on the commercial facility, not the BSA. Da go-cart prohibition means that as a unit yeh shouldn't be runnin' your own go-cart events or participatin' in the amateur competitive stuff. That change/clarification wasn't made that long ago, so it's perfectly possible that folks in your council haven't gotten the memo, eh? Da G2SS updates have been comin' so fast and furious that it's hard to keep up. Just gently inform 'em of da change, point to the current online version, and have 'em call National Health & Safety if they feel readin' it in black and white ain't enough for them. Have fun out there! Beavah

Not just you, eh? I think, though, that if a troop is usin' Advancement Method well then there should be a pretty strong relationship between his rank and his character/maturity/scout spirit, eh? Just like there should be a good relationship between his havin' Lifesavin' MB and our ability to trust him to help supervise a waterfront. If not, then we're not doin' a good job with advancement. Awards and ranks and badges and such won't mean anything to the boys if they don't mean anything important to us. For da rest, every troop approaches things differently, eh? That's why I reckon it's important to ask and listen and observe a fair bit. In a troop like Stosh's that doesn't really use ASMs well, I reckon a JASM doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In a big troop with a bunch of NSPs, I'd think TG might be a good thing. In a traditional patrol method troop, da strongest leaders often stay as PLs and enjoy the role. Lots of different ways to play the scoutin' game. That's why sharin' different ideas can often get us to say "hey, I can use that in my program!" Where I don't agree is that da learning and growth should stop or plateau or whatnot at age 16. I'd give those lads as much real responsibility and fun as they can handle, eh? Keep da growth goin', and in da process cement their love of scoutin' for life. Beavah

Interestin', Stosh. I'm never quite sure what adults are thinkin' when they have kids who are in positions with no real expectations. Doesn't matter whether it's JASM or Historian or whatnot. We're all about settin' up a game to help kids grow and keep growin'. Why would yeh park a kid who wants to contribute in a do nuthin' or "fake" position of some sort? Best units I've seen with JASMs the JASMs are functionin' as full-fledged ASMs. They attend scouters' meetings, they do instruction that da regular youth leaders aren't yet up for. Lots of times they put together and run Troop Leader Training for new youth leaders or IOLS for new adult leaders. These are young men who we've spent a whole mess of years teachin' and who have lots more experience than most adults, eh? Use 'em in real roles, with real responsibilities. One of da things I reckon we really lost in U.S. Scoutin' is Rovers. In lots of places in international Scoutin' da Rover-aged folks are really running the programs for the kids. Old parent-age folks are just support. Really Old Farts like me are just providin' wisdom or someone for da youth to practice real first aid on. If yeh have a scoutin' program that relies more heavily on young adults and youth I reckon it's easier to see a 17-year-old JASM as someone to be relied on rather than someone to be shelved. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm.... I admit I'm an old-fashioned sort of critter, eh? I just wonder if we really want to teach the lads that it's in their "rights" to be defiant. Especially when the man or woman who they're busy gettin' all defiant with is doin' the job for free. I've seen this sort of thing cause grief in many troops, and harm the scouting of lots of kids. Nuthin' worse for units than when adults are fightin' other adults. The kids are always collateral damage. I know as a young eager little beaver I got in a few tussles with teachers and coaches and whatnot. It's part of growin' up. Happily even when I was right my parents supported the teacher/coach/leader, eh? It taught me that I had to make my case politely and respectfully. It also taught me that even when I thought I was right it was more important to lose politely and calmly than to win at all costs. It's a kids' program, eh? It's not da codes to the nuclear missiles, and BSA guidance documents aren't Holy Writ. No need for jihad here, just some calm adult perspective. If it's "everything" to the lad, then I reckon he'll figure out a way to meet his Scoutmaster's expectations. He'll probably have fun doin' it, too, since goin' on a few extra campouts and helpin' out with the younger lads can be a lot of fun. Askin' the boy to behave the part of an Eagle Scout within his troop might be addin' to da requirements dependin' on your view, but it's not harming the boy. Odds are, it's helpin' set the sort of example we want for all the other boys. Dependin' on the partner, it might also be more consistent with da values of the charter than a fine-toothed read of da "policies." Our mission is the kids, eh?

LOL. Yah, these new forum features are interestin', eh? Seems to show me when I've been mentioned. Glad you're still around, John-in-KC, and still a nice guy! RichardB from his writin' here is Richard Bourlon, Health and Safety Team Leader for BSA National in Irving. Postin' on internet forums he's commentin' as himself and not as a BSA official, of course, and da BSA's house rules for reasons that have never made any sense to me don't allow for employees to really make any direct statements or share any real info via social media. Everything's got to go through the marketing/communications team. Richard came to da BSA from workin' in da industrial safety world (for da railroad industry, if I remember right). Industrial safety in a big, highly regulated commercial enterprise like that where yeh can control environment and employees I personally think is a lot different than safety in a volunteer-led outdoor youth education movement. Leastways, the "best practices" of the two different industries and da way insurers handle 'em are different. Close as I can tell, Richard has been adjustin' slowly and he does have a sense of humor. Beavah

Yah, CalicoPenn, not sure where you're gettin' your info, eh? I've been around all that time and yeh just aren't reportin' it accurately. Maybe at some local camp there were some rules, but never nationally. Yeh can find old issues of Boys Life magazine with squirt guns, especially when Super Soakers came out. Da G2SS didn't incorporate a vague laser tag prohibition until around 2000, and we all assumed it meant da laser sites for real firearms, not the toys. And nerf and suction cup darts and all sorts of other things have been around for decades, but da prohibition on "simulated firearms" didn't show up until about 7 years ago. This is a recent trend, and it ain't safety or liability related. If it were and da BSA were just tryin' to shift liability to da volunteers or chartered partners, then that's not a very ethical thing for the BSA to do, eh? We all recognize, though, that squirt guns and laser tag and whatnot are safe and don't pose any real liability concern. Yeh can get general liability insurance for a laser tag establishment at no additional cost. Try to do that with a waterfront or a rifle range! This is someone's political or marketing agenda. Back when da BSA's safety advisory group OK'd laser tag and it was officially allowed, there was somebody else in Irving who pushed the "ban it" agenda and reversed da call. Never could find out who. No matter. I reckon it's reached da point where 95% of da units out there just ignore this silliness. As a Commish, I've certainly limited my input to genuine safety issues. It ain't worth spendin' social capital on squirt guns when there are so many more important things, eh? Beavah P.S. BTW, good to see you're still around, mate! Hope things are well and that yeh get out into the woods a lot this year.

Yah, hmmm.... Seems to me if yeh have bigger fish to catch and fry then yeh should be doin' that, eh? Not wastin' your time on bubble-ball bans. Don't sweat the small stuff, mate. I've never seen bubble-ball or orb stuff, but I hear it was great fun at OA, with no injuries. So what's da problem? We've been doin' wide field games in Scoutin' since da birth of the Movement. As much as anything, that is scouting. This is just wide field games in bubble wrap. Yeh really are makin' your team look out of touch and foolish. Besides, if you're goin' to let the little ones go, then I reckon in a few years we won't have very many big fish in da program, eh? Seems to me fun and frolic for the little ones is a fine thing. Beavah

Yah, this harkens back from da Olde Days of Scoutin', eh? Bring your dues in cash to a meetin'. Nowadays we don't do that sort of thing anywhere in da real world. So I'm not sure why we think it's important to do in Scoutin'. Seems like a make-work task to me, and it's makin' a lot of work. I reckon this is one of those "we've always done it this way" sorts of things, eh? My question would be whether the PLC controls da budget, eh? If you're goin' to teach kids real responsibility, give 'em a real task. Let da PLC control the budget and manage the fundraisin'. Let the Scribe be junior treasurer with real access to the books. Let the PL's collect $ for food or fees for the next campout, perhaps. And if a PL wants to do that by electronic funds transfer or whatnot, more power to him!

Aww, shucks. Missed yeh all too, eh? Da Forums were a bit of a mess for quite a while, I recall. Sort of wandered away to go do some Beaverin', but then discovered I was growin' old and feeble. Or at least Mrs. B was a bit. Family, life, and health happen. All's doin' better, so perhaps I can Beavah some more. I reckon I'll come back to this Happy Land a bit as I'm able. Glad yeh all are doin' well, and keepin' the campfire burnin'. Beavah

Yah, fred, I hear yeh. I've even shared that sentiment at times. I think da thing to ask ourselves is "if I'm viewin' things as a fight with other parents and volunteers, have I lost my way?" Is that really da sort of character and citizenship I want to teach my boy? We all have to answer that question for ourselves, I reckon. Me personally, I think too many of da folks who are tryin' to call themselves "leaders" want to whip folks up for a fight against fellow citizens these days. Seems to me leadership should be a more a calm, service-minded thing, and citizenship means sacrificin' some of what we want for the sake of da group. So for me, if Junior didn't get an "A" that Junior though he deserved, that's junior's issue to deal with. If junior's teacher is clearly harmin' lots of other boys and girls, then maybe that's on Mrs. Beavah and I to raise respectfully. That's a decision to try to fire/replace da teacher, though, eh? Not to get my kid an "A".

I would say that from all accounts here, your absence at the campfire has been about 0%, the big threads? No participation ribbon for you! Yah, for sure! Guess I'm goin' to have to go on a few virtual campouts before I ask for signoff on Forum Spirit, eh? Thanks for the kind words, Stosh. Da forums were pretty broken for a while there, eh? Then life happened in Beavah-land with some health issues for Mrs. B, so I've been away from the woods and trails for a bit. Things settlin' down now, and all's well. Scout on!

Yah, Tatung, what you're describin' is fairly common, eh? It comes from well-meaning adults who are usually (but not always) newer to da Scouting game. Just like most youth leaders start out by tryin' to order folks around and then gradually develop other approaches, most adult leaders start out by directin' things as adults, and then gradually try other approaches. I don't reckon it's quite as harmful as some others here are implyin'. It doesn't produce as much growth in da long run, but it still produces some. After all, every other activity in boys' lives these days is adult run, and they still learn things in school and band and soccer and theater and such. There's also the flipside, eh? Sometimes inexperienced adults get a bit too "hands off" or "sit in da easy chair" about youth run, and that's no good either. Kids in the beginnin' do need to see good performance so that they know what it looks like and what to work toward. Hopefully they see it from older boys but lots of times troops aren't there yet. Besides, adults are their model of leadership, and if da model of leadership is to do nuthin' and have younger folks work, then that's what they'll aspire to as older scouts. All things in balance. If yeh have a troop that's a bit too much on the adult-led side I've never found that yeh can argue 'em into youth led. Everybody believes they're youth led, eh? It's better to inspire 'em in small steps. One thing that can work is to take an adult or two and some senior PLC boys and visit another troop that's really more youth led. More for a campout than a meeting, eh? Seein', touchin', and tastin' new ways of doin' things helps a lot more than talkin' through lots of theory or quotin' BSA books at folks. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm.... I reckon it's hard to figure out what's goin' on with only the information from a parent who's gettin' a bit caught up in da drama of his lad's advancement. Like everyone else I can't figure out whether da committee set (and is just adherein' to) reasonable participation expectations, or whether it's the SM, or it's other parents gettin' annoyed with a family that is playin' a bit fast and loose with da expectations and this is their effort to reign that in a bit. Scout Spirit like all of da requirements can be signed off by whomever the SM designates. He can designate the SPL; he can also designate the Advancement Chair or the Troop Committee. In some ways, havin' a lad's patrol vote on signing off on Scout Spirit might make for a really nice lesson. So might havin' the troop committee with the parents of all the other boys the scout has interacted with. Best to remember the goals here. We want the boys to learn to care about each other, to be loyal to the program, to learn dedication and commitment. Sounds like some of the adults in the boy's life think that he still needs some help with those lessons. As parents we all know our son is perfect and has nothin' to learn, but at times I reckon that's not a hill to die on. What's one more campout in the life of a young lad? Just another opportunity to lead and have some fun!

Hiya SSF! Yah, lots of adult drama there, eh? I've got a question for yeh. What is it that you want for your son as a parent? Lots of times as parents we get a little too involved in da trees and drama of our teenagers, eh? Yeh can usually tell you've hit that point when yeh start talkin' about bein' able to write small novels about their current dust-up with their teacher/coach/scoutmaster. Take a step back and look at the forest and what your real goals for the lad are. Is your goal really an Eagle award? Or is your goal the life lessons that come from Scouting and working and doing things in Scouting? So first, I'd say "Let your son handle his own problems". He's almost an adult and I assume next year he's goin' to have to deal with meeting the requirements of college and da demands of persnickety professors all on his own, eh? Or maybe he's goin' off to military service or to a job where the same will be true. Let Scouting be what it was designed to be - good practice for the world. Without mom or dad gettin' caught up in da drama. Sometimes we all have to deal with a difficult boss. Second, pause for a moment and consider whether the SM and the committee and the other adult leaders (and perhaps some of the youth leaders, and...) don't have a bit of a point. If a fellow in your job got a big award even though he'd really not been around very much at all, and both management and coworkers felt he really wasn't committed, how would that make yeh feel? Third, where do yeh stand on the sort of character you're tryin' to develop in your son? Do yeh want him to lawyer his way through things by quibblin' with the letter of the law, or do yeh want other things from him? No disrespect for lawyers, of course, since I happen to be partial to 'em myself. I can't say anything about da merits or lack of merits of your son's Eagle application from afar. I can say that as parents how we choose to allow our kids to deal with setbacks and the example we set in terms of bein' calm, and respectful of folks who've given their time and treasure to our kids as volunteers - that example means a lot. Those are the things that teach real lessons that support our kids for a lifetime. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Sadly, I have seen a few Eagles in court. I don't reckon that's a reflection on da program, eh? Scoutin' is just one part of a lad's life. Family, school, community, employer, church... all of 'em have their influence. Hopefully we're all workin' together, but it ain't always so. In da grand scheme of things, Scoutin' only gets 'em for a small bit of time. I think we do very well with that, eh? Our positive impact is disproportionate, when done right. But it isn't da be-all and end-all. I worry a bit, though. I reckon I am seein' more lads for whom da Eagle rank is really just a set of minimally-fulfilled paperwork requirements, and it concerns me even more when I hear scouters or pros who try to make da advancement method into that sort of thing. Yeh can't teach character and citizenship by pursuin' awards and checkboxes where "addin' to da requirements" is trotted out whenever some well-intentioned scouter actually expects a lad to be able to swim, or do a pull-up, or bandage a wound. Da real magic of Scoutin' is in da other methods anyways, eh? It's in livin' and workin' with other boys facing challenges in the outdoors. So I sort of agree with MattR, eh? The good programs out there, the ones where yeh come to an EBOR and go "Yah, this is an Eagle Scout" - all of 'em set substantially higher expectations for advancement than what is possible to get by with. They're da programs that have resisted FCFY, have kept patrol outings, where First Class Scouts really can take a group backpackin' or paddlin' on their own. Pretty easy to spot 'em, too. If the lad earned Camping MB in less than 30 nights out, and is comin' to an EBOR with less than 100, odds are we haven't really had enough time with the boy to really affect character. If the lad has only been a librarian in a troop that really doesn't have a library, instead of bein' the guy who planned and led a bunch of outings or kept and purchased da gear for a year or more, we haven't given him enough opportunity to develop citizenship. It's just a patch, and a lad who has learned to regurgitate words. Scoutin' is magic for kids. It changes lives, eh? Only if we believe in it enough to do it better than just followin' da minimal possible interpretation of da text.

Yah, like all things yeh have to decide what yeh think da goal is, eh? If yeh think da goal is pink-book lawyerin' da requirements to da minimum possible interpretation, then that's what yeh do. I tend to think da requirements serve the program, not vice versa. So I think da way yeh read this is da same way yeh read the stuff about buildin' cooking fires. If yeh live in an area where drought conditions have put yeh under a burn ban for many months at a time, so that the lads can't really get experience with fires, then yeh use the wiggle the requirements give yeh so that the boys can keep advancin'. They don't have to actually light a fire. But if yeh aren't livin' in a drought and the boys do have access, yeh should expect 'em to light a fire. Same here. Yeh can do it in a pool, but that should be for cases when the lads don't have reasonable access to open water.

Yah, hmmm... All troops are a bit different, eh? I'm in da northern midwest and I'm not that acquainted with the LDS Scouting/Young Men's program in the mountain states. There's a very different structure and dynamic when yeh put all da 11-year-olds together with no older boys and relatively new leaders, eh? So yeh have to be careful about whether you're askin' for normal within all of Scoutin', or normal within da structure of LDS Scoutin' in your area. In terms of all of Scoutin', I'd say that most troops would have a bit more uniforming, and the presence of older lads either as patrol leaders or instructors/senior scouts helps to keep things a bit more organized and movin'. Still, there's quite a range. Puttin' just 11-year-olds together becomes a bit more of a baby-sitting exercise that requires some good adults. I'd say in terms of activity, that's all over the place. The LDS program I believe limits the campin' opportunities for the 11-year-olds, so I think the trend toward less active/outdoors is real, but there's a wide variation within LDS units dependin' on the adult leaders. You'll also find a fair bit of indoor scoutin' of the sort yeh describe in non-LDS troops. So I reckon I'd say two things: 1) Yep, absolutely, check out some other troops. Trust your instincts, especially with a lad with adhd/aspergers who might like da chaos, but who will probably do better in da long term if he's got a bit more structure, eh? I think there's a good chance you'll find somethin' a bit more to your likin'. 2) Boy Scouting moves kids toward being more self-directed and then youth led, and kids learnin' how to become self-directed or learning how to lead are naturally goin' to be more chaotic about it then if we did it all for 'em. They need room to be a bit goofy, to see disorder and experience that it doesn't work, and to build somethin' that matches their needs, not ours. So yeh have to be willin' to accept a fair bit more rambunctiousness and chaos than is normal for adults. It's not for us, it's for them. The best troops will have meetings that are that way, but are active and things are still gettin' done. Besides, if we're honest with ourselves, we'd recognize that not all adult meetings are all that well-run or organized either, eh?

"use a figure 8 w/follow-through or a figure 8 on a byte" Yah, hmmm.... I reckon yeh can only use a figure 8 on a byte if the lad is doin' Computers MB and Climbing MB at da same time.

Yah, Waynepjh, as da recent news event in Goblin Valley demonstrate, our scouting units affiliated with da LDS run a somewhat different program than da rest of us in terms of structure and supervision. Historically they have about 5 times da accident rate as da rest of us, eh? Just a combination of less experienced leaders and youth, with mandatory participation. Bein' out on da Snake yeh are goin' to see a disproportionate number of LDS units. It's an issue a bit frustratin' to da rest of us in Scoutin' who run good programs. But there is a solution, eh? We need folks like you to get involved in Scoutin' in your local area and teach da adults and kids how to do it well. Share your knowledge and expertise, get some paddlin' friends to guide a few trips for da local scout council that less experienced leaders can hook up with and learn from. As a paddler myself, I can tell yeh it can be a lot of fun, eh? It's different sort of fun than just runnin' stuff with a few experienced paddlers, but it's really quite enjoyable. And I promise yeh you can have big impacts on the boys who come through, to preserve the wild rivers for all of us. Beavah