Beavah

Yah, E61, then you're not understanding what your school district is actually doing. School officials can do some sorts of searches of student belongings because they are not law enforcement. Law enforcement can be asked to search school property, like lockers. But law enforcement can't search student property without probable cause. Yah, and state law cannot suspend civil rights, eh? That's why they're called rights. IMO, the presence of law enforcement in schools is excellent evidence of incompetent educators and administrators. As for da rest, there's a balance, as always. When your son is the victim of an anonymous rumor about drug use, how do yeh want people to respond? Ban him from the trip that he's worked hard for because some indignant parent thinks your son might get his kid hooked on meth? Send out letters to everyone lending credence to the rumor? Or something more thoughtful? dScouter15, no need to repeat yourself. We just disagree is all. I agree that what you're saying isn't the same as a behavior contract. I don't have da same negative reaction to it that I have to behavioral contracts. I just don't think it accomplishes anything, and runs a risk of doing some harm (beyond just da overhead cost of tracking down lots of pieces of paper). Just my opinion, take it or leave it. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

I'd like to point out that sending out a memo reminding scouts of health and safety considerations in the context of a high adventure trip is NOT the same as a "behavioral contract." Yah, I agree. Sending out trip information is just sending out trip information. Some trip information yeh have to send out (emergency contact numbers and such). I don't think yeh need signed statements back. Just seems like overkill. But da issue is drugs on a trip. Do yeh really feel that a formal notice is needed to tell families it's inappropriate to bring illegal recreational drugs on a trip? That they need to sign off on such a memo? Isn't that, well, obvious? And if it's obvious, isn't sending such a last-minute notice to all the parents going to make 'em wonder "What the heck is going on? Do kids have drugs on these trips?" That'll get yeh a lot of questions. Collecting paperwork is not the same thing as being prepared, eh? And having paperwork that says "I agree that illegal drugs are illegal" doesn't prepare you for anything. Beavah

Yah, eolesen, please understand I was respondin' to the notion of contracts and policies and paperwork more generally, not to you or your individual case. No way I can do that in more than a generic way, not knowin' the players. But let me just explore what yeh said a bit, eh? This is a kid who has shown himself not to be trustworthy, loyal, courteous, and has not kept himself morally straight. If this is the case, then why are you taking him on a high-adventure trip? Does that seem reasonable to you, either as an example of the sort of scout who should get to do such cool things, or as a safe or reasonable thing to do? If another boy gets hurt, or gets in trouble, because of your decision to include this admittedly problematic youth, are you ready to defend that decision? And if the lad is not trustworthy or morally straight, what value does a written behavioral contract have? People who aren't trustworthy or straight violate contracts all the time. I don't think we can afford to allow "you never told me that" to be in his repetoire right now. Yah, so what if a boy or family says "you never told me that?" I mean seriously. Who can keep a straight face with a boy or a family claiming "you never told me that bringing illegal drugs on a trip wasn't allowed?" It's a complete fallacy to believe that some piece of paper is going to make problem kids or parents behave any differently. They're still going to argue with you. They're still going to make excuses. They're still going to cry that you're picking on their wonderful son. The piece of paper changes none of that. And as a contract, it's less than worthless. So if I were in your shoes, I'd probably choose not to take the boy and risk the trip for the other lads, if he truly is as untrustworthy as you describe. Just a standard safety decision. But if yeh insist on taking him, then a behavior contract sure doesn't seem to be adding anything, and probably hamstrings your ability to respond appropriately to his behavior more than it controls his behavior. If you're worried about da parents paying for the plane ticket home if that becomes necessary, make 'em pay an extra deposit up front. Cash on the line speaks a lot louder than some bogus contract. Beavah

Yah, this came up again in da parent thread. I confess that the more I think about it, the more I believe that there's no such thing as a non-denominational service that is meaningful. Yah, yah, we claim to do 'em at scout camp and scouts' own. But if we're honest with ourselves, most of the time those follow a generic protestant worship plan. Songs, readings, a sermon. Not something that would be recognized by non-western religions as a religious service. Heck, not something that even most Catholics or Jews are comfortable with as being their weekly honoring of the sabbath. Either that, or we do an even more odd Wiccan/pseudo-American-Indian/God-in-Nature thing, with a whole mess of Scout Oath & Law as religion stuff. I reckon that offends almost everybody, or at least satisfies almost nobody. Plenty of our members feel that such generic "worship" is either worthless or blasphemous. It makes a whole mess of the rest of our members uncomfortable. Why do we do it? Wouldn't we be better off just encouraging units and lads to pursue a real faith experience consonant with their belief? I've seen this done a few times, and I confess I (as a Christian) found attending a real Jewish sabbath service at camp far more spiritual than the generic nonsense, and far more respectful of the faith of my brother scouts and scouters. Right now, our generic services are rejected by Catholics, LDS, Muslims, and many protestant denominations, are often found offensive by Jews, and just mystify our members from da Eastern religions who tend to put up with it as a weird thing we do. What do the rest of yeh think? Beavah

Yah, I join rdclements in hating "behavior contracts". Partly because they teach kids entirely the wrong thing about contract law. They're not a contract at all, they're an imposition of rules that has nothing to do with contracting. My experience has been that every adult who decides to do da "behavior contract" thing is either weak in character or doesn't really know how to deal with kids. Because they can't bring themselves to address the behavior of a child directly and personally, they make up some contract nonsense to hide behind. Strong adult leaders take personal responsibility for their own decision as an adult - you let me down, Joe Scout, you let your friends down, so I am sending you home. Weaker adults need to twist it around and pretend the contract is sending the boy home. It's da same with units that want to turn everything into a behavioral policy. I'm not the one making the decision, it's the policy. It's just BS. And let me tell yeh, a bright lad is going to do a Merlyn and try to twist da language of the contract every which way, or find a behavior yeh haven't yet thought of a policy for. Then what do the adult cowards do? Hem and haw and write more contracts and policies. Bah, humbug. A scoutmaster is a mentor, and a mentor is like a parent. We don't write contracts with our kids. We don't hand 'em books of policies. We behave like adults who believe in things, and have da courage of our convictions. That's how they grow up to have character and courage themselves. Teach 'em behavior contracts and they'll just grow up to be the worst sort of lawyer or unethical businessman, writing junk contracts to manipulate others. Nah, save contracting for business relationships like buying a house. They have no place in raising children. My (not so humble) opinion in any event. Yeh each must do what yeh think is right. But think about it, eh? Beavah

What happens if a Taoist (or some other non-Christian) doesn't attend a camp worship service that is Christian based. ?? Um, he gets to spend more time catching frogs down by the lake? He gets a chance to perfect an omelet for cooking MB? Nothing "happens". In most camps yeh only get a subset of troops and kids at da camp services even on a good day. Beavah

If this were a school trip...what would they do? They would call the Police immediately and have them search. Yah, I hope this was a joke. While yeh do see media reports every now and again of public schools that go "over the top and around the bend" on somethin' like this, I'm happy to say that for da most part a higher level of competence and professionalism prevails in most places. Law enforcement also has better things to do than playing substitute teacher or school administrator. And of course, law enforcement does need probable cause to search a person's belongings. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Hard case, eh? For sure, the various thefts (some admitted), the enabling parents, and general tone point to a lad who may well be using fairly frequently. A lad who is using frequently would try to bring stuff on a trip, where boys who are occasional users might not. Some things I would not do: I would not involve law enforcement unless the lad was dealing/supplying. If yeh can't deal with a misbehaving kid without calling the cops, you shouldn't be a scouter. Law enforcement has better things to do than substitute parenting or scoutmastering. I would not send a generic note or signed "contracts" or any such silliness to all the trip participants. That approach to my mind shows a lack of fortitude. If yeh have a problem, confront the problem, don't spam all the other kids and their families with meaningless forms. Nobody needs a signed statement to be aware that it's not OK to bring weed on a high adventure trip. Just makes 'em feel you don't trust them, makes them feel yeh have a problem, and let's everyone know you don't have a clue how to really deal with it. I would not fret in the least about "probable cause" and other pseudo-legal drivel. You're a scouter, not a cop. Behave like a scouter, not a cop. Beyond that, da rest just depends on your relationships and knowin' all the people. I'd be hugely reluctant to go the dogs route; just too much sneakin' around for my taste, and it's sure to damage your trust with the boys unless handled very well. And yeh need that trust, because that more than anything is what stops this stuff. But then, if you're crossing international borders or going through airports on your HA trip, a kid with pot could be a disaster that affects everyone; and if yeh know the private firm with the dogs that will do it on a friendly basis, it might be something to consider. I'd lean more toward talking with the lad, and/or being a bit more vigilant during the gear checks and on the trip. And then have a solid "plan" for what happens if/when you have an incident. Beavah

Court cases arise only when there's an intractable dispute, Gern. They are by nature disputatious and adversarial. Yeh can never use a court case to describe the real operational character of any organization or business for that reason, any more than you should judge a person's normal behavior or character by the times when they are most stressed or put upon. Just da nature of the beast. B

However, we do occasionally have a few parents who want to push an agenda through their children, eh? So they'll make a big stink about how their boy is atheist and refuses to accept the Cub Scout Promise or the Scout Oath but still wants to join. And then the answer on the BSA side is "No, sorry, that's not consistent with our mission." So yah, we do refuse membership to atheist youth in that sort of context, or the context of a 17 year old young adult denies any religious belief at an Eagle BOR or such. But not in da context that Scoutfish reports, where kids are learning/stretching/rebelling and whatnot. That's where real kids are at, eh? And it's certainly not da context of this thread, where a boy is a Taoist without the same western notion of personal God, but with a genuinely religious belief. One of the lads who once told me he was an atheist at a First Class or Star BOR is now a very well respected Christian minister. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, hmmm... I guess that about does it. I apologize, eh? I figured I'd take the time to do one detailed explication as requested. Just as a test. Well, I reckon we all saw da answer to the test, so as a favor let's just stop respondin to this one. Yeh can all bookmark it and just refer to it in da future when the misinformation comes up again. In da spirit of Gern's movie of choice this thread, I leave yeh with this: These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green giants, walking the Earth with guns. These people we wasted here today are the finest human beings we will ever know. After we rotate back to the world, we're gonna miss not having anyone around that's worth shooting. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... If yeh reject expert testimony from multiple sources who are much closer to the topic than you are... If yeh ignore all other documents, training, and evidence that refutes your conclusion... If yeh refuse to do a full read of the document in question, and instead base your conclusion on just a line or two... If yeh then misinterpret da meaning of the line or two because of all of the above... Then you're probably one of those fellows who is a climate change denier, eh? Because yeh can point to a few sentences in one component study of da IPCC report that when pulled from their context seem to make your point. Surely, yeh aren't really going to claim that approach amounts to honest intellectual rigor? After all, if we reflect your (actual, quoted) words back to you: *** "I answered [your] post and pointed out (yet again) where [you were] wrong", using quotes as you suggested. *** After "correcting [Merlyn] on this point ... [Merlyn] didn't even acknowledge his error. He'll likely bring up the same false information in the future, possibly misleading people on what the BSA's religious requirements really are. But accuracy is only important to people who want a genuine discussion. " I leave yeh with da task of personal reflection on whether your own principles and criticisms apply to yourself. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Missed your post when I was composin' mine, Buff. That's a reasonable start, eh? One question for yeh. Why not use your patrols, rather than having da boys form their own new patrols by interest during the week? Seems like you're breaking Patrol Method when it isn't necessary. Let each patrol decide on its activities. Then maybe in the evening, yeh can offer individual merit badges to whomever wants. Seems like that would be natural for Astronomy MB. Or maybe a few guys in each patrol can meet with a counselor at the start of the week and then work on the badge on their own during the week while they're out with their patrol. Seems like a natural thing for somethin' like Cooking MB anyways. Just some thoughts. Beavah

Yah, say what yeh want about Kudu, he does accumulate some interestin' stuff on his site. Here are a few things on this topic. Wise and fun advice from a bunch of different scouters across da country. I don't endorse everything they say, mind, but yeh have to admit it's quite a treasure trove if you're thinkin' about this sort of thing. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/more.htm Set of emails with scouters offering brief responses detailing their independent camps in a response to a question like Buffalo's. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/trooprun.htm One troop's detailed description of its annual in-troop summer camp program. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/01.htm A troop doing their own summer camp as a mini high-adventure type trip. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/02.htm A troop that runs its own camp in addition to going to BSA camp each summer. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/03.htm Another troop run camp using a Corps of Engineers camp facility. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm A long description and reflection from a troop where da PLC designed their own summer camp, based on their goals. It's pretty good stuff, eh? Shortridge, do yeh have any good resources or examples of da "hybrid" thing yeh talked about (perhaps it could even be a different thread). I'm just curious. Of course, that's what BSA camps historically were supposed to be, eh? Sorta what a lot of international scout camps still are, if yeh get a chance to visit. More like resource providers to assist da troop in its own program, rather than actually running everything themselves as an offered program. But yeh don't see that done too much anymore. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Sigh. OK Merlyn. You claimed that because you read an online form (the youth application), that you as an outsider to the BSA must be right about da way the BSA works, and I (as a long-time scouter at several different levels of the organization) must be wrong. First, let's recognize that searching the internet is a very weak substitute for actually talkin' to experts in an area. Second let's recognize that da purpose of a single form in an organization is to be a form, not to be an extensive discussion of policy or whatnot. Forms get put together by a few random people in an office, not voted on by the executive board. So on both counts, your "evidence" is ridiculously weak in the face of the expert testimony of dozens of scouters on how da BSA actually treats things, some of whom do or have served at da national level. Now, let's look at the form itself. Not just your excerpt, but the entire form in context. Because, yeh see, entire arguments in context are important. While it's fun to take one-line excerpts and twist 'em around, it isn't honest or accurate. Yep, that's right, for the first time I am actually calling your analysis (intellectually) dishonest. So what do yeh suppose is the context of an application form? Well, it's to let parents who are interested know a few relevant things. In this case, da office staff who put the form together just clipped excerpts from different places. So yeh only got an excerpt of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and an excerpt of the charter agreement and such. Just da briefest generalities, not detailed application of policy. What do those excerpts say? Well for one, "Leadership is restricted to qualified adults who subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle." That's da first bullet under "Program Policies", eh? So if yeh accurately read for what the program policy of the BSA is, it's that ADULT LEADERSHIP must subscribe to the "precepts" of the DRP. There is nothing in the section titled "Program Polices" about youth and the DRP, is there? Now, let's look at da DRP excerpt. It says that the BSA "recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life." So the BSA says that as a matter of policy, it is absolutely non-sectarian, supports a "religious element", and treats that as something left to the parents and da religious body. Including Taoists and all sorts of -ists and -isms. Finally, if you compare the Youth Application with the Adult Application, you will note that on the Adult Application there is a required signature by the adult that states that they agree to comply with the Charter & Bylaws & Rules & Regulations of the BSA (including the full DRP). However, on the youth application there is no such signature line for either parents or youth. So a simple comparison of the forms demonstrates that the expectations for youth and adult members are different, and that only the adult members are required to subscribe to the general precepts of the DRP. So, to summarize, your analysis is dead wrong because: 1) You ignored the expert testimony of the dozens of scouters of various levels who gave you detailed and nuanced descriptions about how the BSA's policy is interpreted and applied. 2) You based your analysis on a single form rather than on the full body of BSA literature, training and practice. 3) The form on which your analysis was based is not a policy document. 4) When you actually examine the form itself, a clear reading of the full form refutes your assertion. 5) When you examine the form itself, you note that unlike the adult application, there is no required signature or agreement to abide by the DRP. Now that your analysis has been thoroughly refuted, I trust yeh will follow your own prescription and refrain from bringing up "the same false information in the future, possibly misleading people on what the BSA's religious requirements really are." Of course, I don't reckon that any of us are holding our breath, eh? You aren't bound by a "higher thingamajig" to try to live up to a set of ideals. Yours in Scouting Service, Beavah and a good ol' Beavah too! (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Ah, Full Metal Jacket! Of course. One of da best drill sergeant performances ever, but not as much fun as Stripes. Gern, dats a bit odd for you, eh? I would have expected you were more of a Stripes fellow. Beavah

Yah, eggerskf, welcome! You'll find troops that do things every which way. Some like jblake's have open terms, like an employer. When yeh take on a job, there's no term limit. Yeh stay for as long as you are interested and you're wanted. Others do terms of different lengths. 6 months and one year are most common. Loosely speakin', I think da 6 month thing has it's origins in the rank requirements for Life and Eagle rather than in a more well thought out system of youth leadership, but folks make it work. To my mind, the longer terms (or six month terms where re-election / re-appointment is common) are a bit better suited to developing young leaders. But a lot depends on da troop, how positions are used, and how old the lads are. High school leaders are fine for longer terms, but middle school lads might not be. I think what's more important than what system yeh settle on is how yeh settle on it. If the boys change the terms or abolish 'em because they see a need, and the adults are enough of that conversation that they buy in as partners, that's best. Doesn't matter so much which system yeh use; in fact, da best units often allow the boys to tweak things back and forth over the years as they have a "new idea", even though for the long time adults it means its just a return to what it was 6 years ago . Dat's a long way of saying that I reckon your change will be just fine, and good for your troop. Nice job being thoughtful about your kids and your program, and having a vision and da courage to make changes to get there. Beavah

Yah, Buffalo, I know some units that have done that. Loosely speaking, two things are true. First, it's a LOT of work, eh? Your adults will be goin' non- stop all week. Not a lot of sittin' around camp. Da PLs will be working their tails off too. Second, it's a great experience. Your kids will probably find it way better than scout camp, and you'll be able to really develop patrol method and youth leadership in ways yeh can't at camp. But don't forget, it's a LOT of work. Think of it a bit like doin' a troop-run high adventure (which is slightly more common). When yeh don't use Philmont or Seabase or whatnot, the lads get oodles more experience planning, yeh get to tailor your trip to their interests and needs and ability, and yeh can run a 3 week adventure for less money than the shorter High Adventure Base treks. But it's more work, takes more skill and experience and commitment than average. There's a reason da high adventure bases are around. Yeh might try posting this on Scouts-L or checkin' their archives. Da scouters I know who do this sort of thing talk about that list sometimes. Beavah

Yah, Gern, I know I've seen da movie, but I can't place it. Stripes? While I'd like to see scouters be a better example of fitness (just like I'd like to see us all be a better example of mentally awake and morally straight and all da rest of it ). I don't reckon we go drill sergeant on lads who are toying with atheism, eh? I reckon our more well rounded scouters deserve the same sort of consideration and respect. Love your and pack's new version of "pie", though I'm not convinced that pie belongs in issues and politics. Us pigs need a pen to wallow in in peace. Besides, I'd just fed Merlyn a whole raft of new material, and he took da bait. But berries ... Mmmmm.... Berries are always worth it. Beavah

Yah, studentscout, I get yeh. Problem is we just don't have words for this stuff that somebody like Merlyn (or an equally self-righteous Christian) can't torque around in some odd way in order to scratch a personal itch. Maybe AA's "Higher Power" is da closest, but even that doesn't work (and it would cause a firestorm from da folks who get torqued about a word change from "God." ) Merlyn OTOH always gets horked off about da "God" word, but misses the bit about da BSA being "absolutely non-sectarian". The point of the DRP and the Oath is that in order to be "the best kind of citizen", yeh need to have a belief system which meets a few criteria: 1) It has to be "bigger" than yourself. Bigger than your family, tribe, or nation. 2) It has to impose some form of obligation / calling / personal ethic on you, by which you reflect on your own actions and work to improve. 3) It can't be silly or "evil." No Spaghetti monsters or Satanists. It has to call you to be a better person. How's that for yeh? That's the gist of it anyway. Without some "higher something", how do yeh criticize torture when da state makes it legal? Without some "higher something" how do yeh justify or encourage personal sacrifice to benefit others without any possibility of "getting something out of it"? Without some "higher thingamajig", what causes you to reflect on and challenge your own actions? Even if religion were fake, we'd have to invent it just to teach good citizenship. That's why even da "atheist" regimes around the world develop the personality-cult pseudo religions around their "Dear Leader". So all that applies just fine to Buddhists and Taoists; both of those transcend family/tribe/nationality; both have teachings which call adherents to personal growth and enlightenment. As you've found, for youth, da BSA is generally a welcoming and friendly place, even for youth members who, like Merlyn, find themselves being "atheists" for a bit when they inevitably become disillusioned with God/religion because of the poor behavior of us religious folks, or when they become bright and alert enough to question but haven't yet found da answers. The DRP applies only to adult leaders, who should be good examples to the youth who are still on da trail. Beavah

Nah, yeh misunderstood me, Merlyn. I don't believe all atheists know in their heart there's a deity. I know a fair number of atheists and agnostics, and I reckon quite a few are quite happily convinced there is no deity, and we respect each other. I was just trying to explain you to the new fellow. . What I said about Paul of Tarsus applied to you personally, it wasn't a statement about all atheists. You're the fellow with zeal and passion for justice who is just misapplying your talents at the moment, but you're drawn like a magnet to forums with religious folks like this one. Neither of those things applies to da other atheists I know. They are contentedly atheist, where you are quite humorously and passionately anti-theist. As Elie Weisel once said, the opposite of Love isn't Hate, it's indifference. Similarly, da opposite of religiosity, true atheism of the heart, is indifferent to religion. You aren't indifferrent to religion, yeh actively oppose it. That's not deep atheism, it's da surface atheism of rebellion. It's Saul before Paul, Whitey before gettin' into scouts. Yeh should go read Thompson, eh? Da Hound of Heaven. Beavah

Yah, LIBob, yeh got da right answer early on. The BSA and most BSA units would welcome a Taoist scout with open arms as a brother in Scouting. We would welcome a Taoist religious body as a chartered partner. We would welcome the creation of Taoist religious awards if the Taoist chartered partners would propose awards that they agreed upon and would meet their needs. So by all means, invite your friends and any other families in da Taoist community to join the brotherhood of Scouting! Like any community, we have a few self-centered members who aren't used to folks from non-western cultures (or who even have issues with nearby Christian denominations ). Dat's America, eh? Nothing different from what the boys will run into in school or in life, in fact, usually a lot better. And in your part of da country where there's more diversity it won't be a problem. Da kids will be fine. Merlyn is not a scouter nor is he in any way familiar with the BSA's policy or practices. He's an atheist fellow still caught a bit in his teenage years, where everything is black and white and it's fun to argue and point out weaknesses and inconsistencies in everyone else. All such folks have "causes", eh? His is to try to denigrate the BSA in various ways, and to try to use da mechanisms of government to coerce the BSA to do things his way. Doing good work ourselves, and using a set of external ideals to reflect on our own personal beliefs and actions is the point of da BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle, eh? Without some deeply held beliefs outside of ourselves that we can use to examine our own conscience, use to reflect and self-examine, we all run da risk of becoming selfish folks blindly absorbed in our own unproductive personal causes. Da best kind of citizens have some sort of belief like that which serves to guide and challenge us. Taoists do, so they are welcome as both scouts and adult leaders. Merlyn does not, eh? So da BSA's position makes him bitter. He's got a lot of zeal, so I have hope that some day his brain will get around to recognizing what clearly his heart knows, that there really is something to this religious stuff, eh? That, done well, it makes one a better person. He keeps hanging out in scouting forums like this one because he feels that draw. Just like with kids, rebels are da ones who really care most deeply and make da strongest converts. From Paul of Tarsus to Whitey in Follow Me Boys. So that's your answer, while we wait for Merlyn to get knocked off his horse . Invite the Taoist boys! They, their parents, and their church community are welcome. Beavah

Yah, but not necessarily courteous to fellow travelers. This can be a really hard thing to balance, eh? On da one hand, we owe our fellow travelers respect and courtesy. LNT applies to our in-transit behavior as well as our backcountry behavior, and disrupting lots of other folks enjoyment of their quiet vacation travel is not a good thing, eh? At the same time, I reckon there are a lot of old fogies my age who just aren't used to being around kids any more. I admit that I've been out at times when kids have been out and about who were very kind and respectful, and had codgers come up to me and complain bitterly about "those hooligans". Yeh even see these gated retirement communities where dogs are OK but kids are forbidden. "Rowdy", like beauty, is oft in da eye of the beholder. Personally, I try to stay away from such old grumps. . But when yeh happen to be around 'em yeh have to do da best yeh can. Beavah

Yah, Missouri... Can we ask what da denomination is? Might help us point yeh toward more resources. Beavah

Yah, ScoutDad68, welcome to da forums! Yep, in a good troop, the boys will handle the consequences for almost everything. Usually, just the patrol leader will take care of it. Don't help with dinner, no dessert. Stay up late keeping everybody up, get assigned to early-rise breakfast duty the rest of the week. If the PL can't handle it, the SPL does. I've seen good SPLs call up a boy's parent to tell him to come pick up his son because the SPL was sending him home for misbehavior. Sometimes, da whole patrol will have a discussion/intervention and let a boy know he has to shape up. Typically, as Gary Miller says, da youth are more strict than adults are. That's because some adults tend to be pushovers. But it's also because teenagers are a lot more in tune with fairness and justice than they are with mercy. So a Scoutmaster may occasionally offer suggestions or tone down a response to give the lads perspective. But let me tell yah, having the cool older boy PL or SPL tell yeh to shape up is about 100 times more effective than having an adult lecture a boy. Beavah