Beavah

Not a real preacher, and as yeh can tell, not a good one either. But I do stay in a Holiday Inn Express sometimes! B

Jblake gives a good example of something I'd consider a bit further up the chain... Trusting youth with planning tasks. Great example, BTW! I'm talkin' a bit different, along da lines of this thread. Does the SM require there to be an SPL, and define the role of the SPL for all boys who ever hold that position? Or do the PLs get to decide how they want to structure their PLC this year, and choose not to have an SPL? Does there have to be a PLC meeting each month after the meeting, or can da PLC decide to conduct business via Facebook and only get together when they feel the need? Does da SM hand each POR a job description and then explain what he is to do (or have da ASPL explain what to do), or does a scout see a need for the group and step in to fill that need, developing his own scope of responsibilities along da way in collaboration with other scouts and their scopes of responsibility? Yah, yah, this is a bit like Kudus challenge, eh? Is it more like a group of buddies on a high adventure outing who figure out how to work together to do something great, or is it more like da kind of things adults do in a corporate office? And if it looks like da latter, yeh know where it comes from, eh? Yeh often hear da objections of allangr1024, eh? That's where adults are at one of da other levels and are content to stop. They believe the youth can't be trusted further. I've never found that to be the case. It just takes work and faith to get there. Da BSA program materials provide suggested structural outlines for programs, eh? But that's all they are. Yeh have to give novice leaders some overview of possible ways to run. Like any adult overview, da BSA uses language and structure familiar to adults. I'm not as upset as Kudu about that, because I reckon it saves training time and confusion. But then yeh have to let da kids adapt that to kid-dom. Can it be done? Sure can. I've seen troops where da lads plan and run their own summer camp, and troops where da boys change the jobs and da structure of the troop operations every year. Boys who look on their own at a big group of incoming new scouts and brainstorm up "lets handle it by structuring patrols in this new way." Just did an EBOR a bit ago (in the field... I always love doin' that) where the boy talked about how he and his patrol mates were running 3 different adult free trips on their own outside of scouting this summer. No committees, no agendas, just friends who know da jobs that need to be done and split 'em up and do 'em according to their interests and abilities. If I remember right, at least one of those was a week-long international backpacking trip. That's what we can achieve in scouting, eh? That and more. It's an awe-inspiring thing when yeh see it happen in a troop. Yeh come to know that da youth of tomorrow can pass us by and do a better job than we did. I like da units like that best, eh? I think that's the fullest use of da scouting program. And I think the best way to get to those levels is da sort of full implementation of da Patrol Method and the outdoors that Hillcourt and Kudu and jblake and others discuss. That's a bit different than da focus on youth leadership which is part of the earlier levels, though that too is a component. But it's not to say that the other troop implementations are wrong, or that they aren't good programs, or aren't real scouting, or aren't doing good things for kids. Da other stops along the continuum also have active youth and caring adults and rich, fun, programs. I don't think their leadership is fake, and I love talkin' with their youth, too. I just think yeh get deeper, better scouting and kid outcomes as yeh move up da chain. Beavah

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Yah, whatever. Suffice to say, yeh don't read a legal document that way and instructions for a form arent da same thing as "standards and requirements." Love to see yeh try da argument on your tax return (" I thought you meant that the form was true and correct, not that the content of da form was true and correct!). It's still funny, though . Especially trying' to argue around "no subtracting from da requirements". I can only imagine what you'd say if da MBC, as counselor of record, violated the same rule and added to the requirements. Let me ask a different question. If you're still a unit scouter, have you ever asked your kids? Pull your SPL aside and let him know that none of the boys in Swimming MB had met the requirements as stated or as everyone else in da troop had had to do, but da MBC had botched things and filled out the forms. What would the kids say, absent a 10 minute lecture on parsed phrases and policy blather? What would they say is fair and right for their game? I've yet to meet a leadership scout who wouldn't reflect da view of the BSA in the stuff I quoted above. To give him da badge isn't right because it's not fair to the boy, it's not fair to other scouts, and it's not good for da program. It shows a character weakness in da adults and undermines our trust, because it means that some boys who are "favorites" (or good at finding weak links) can manipulate signoffs for less than da requirements. A scout badge should mean something. Go ahead. Ask da kids. I bet yeh find that da BSA is right. I know that almost every EBOR I've ever done, when asked about their least meaningful badge, the boys report on some badge from summer camp that was really "worthless" because the counselor had cheated on da requirements. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Nah, yeh got that mixed up,eh? BSA liability coverage is primary for registered leaders for everything except motor vehicle stuff (car, boat, and plane). It's excess coverage only for non-registered people serving as leaders. As liability coverage, it will never cover your own vehicle. Accident/medical coverage is zero-deductible excess coverage, with very low limits. It won't cover much more than a simple fracture, but it will pay a deductible on da scout/scouters personal policy. If it's in force, eh? Its optional coverage in many councils. OGE, yeh really got me laughing with da "criminal lawyers" bit. B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

But what I see as instilling a sense of entitlement is Uncle Leroy saying you're entitled to that job... Or Uncle Calico saying you're entitled to that Merit Badge. Sorry, couldn't resist. I agree with your post, eh? I think da primary teachers of children are always parents and relatives. But then, I think that schools and activities like Scouting are also effective teachers, eh? And just like parents, they can teach lessons of entitlement. More to da point, schools and government programs can teach parents lessons of entitlement, which can then be passed on to kids. I look at my generation, eh? We feel as a group that we are entitled to take money from the young folks to continue to support Social Security and Medicare at a level which vastly exceeds any contribution we made to the programs. And then we're entitled to waive teabags around and gripe about da government trying to insure working folks and children with da same type of Ponzi scheme program we're benefiting from. All while claiming to be anti-entitlement. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad. We feel Social Security is our property, when in fact it is charity bestowed on us by da young. That's not a notion we started with. That's a notion that da program, and our reliance on it, taught us. So I think programs can develop dependencies and teach entitlement to young and old. Like NJ says, nothing is ever free, eh? We're always takin' it from someone else. Do we feel entitled to that, or grateful to them? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, SR540, nice job with da fundraiser. I thought a 30% participation rate was awesome, actually. Yeh have to remember, fundraisers aren't free, they cost the participants in time. Often a decision not to participate in a fundraiser is a thrifty one for a scout or a family. If a parent is working long hours, it's more efficient to get da overtime (or just to keep the job) and to preserve some family time than it is to set that time aside for a fundraiser. Yeh can't get down on people for that. Doin' right by the 30% that you were able to help was a grand thing. Beavah (who agrees to stop hijackin' his own thread )

Don't belive this statement means anything more than a statement saying that you followed instructions and filled out the form correctly LOL-ROTF. Yah, that's da funniest thing I've read in a long time. It's so hard in text to tell, but I assume Calico wasn't typing with a straight face. I don't believe the Boy Scouts of America has "standards and requirements" published for form-filling, eh? And I reckon a properly filled out form is self-evident without a certification that yeh think yeh filled it out properly. And there's no expectation for alphabetic order either. The real bottom line is that yeh have to decide what's best for the boy, not what's best for da paperwork. Is it really a case like what Scoutfish describes, where a lad struggled and worked hard through the whole week and da MBC signed as a generous "barely passed" in acknowledgment of the lad's effort? In that case, by all means, award the badge and keep him swimming. Is it really a case that the boys got shortchanged in instruction, that the badge was pencil whipped or just plain issued in error because da counselors' aides didn't keep accurate records? Then by all means, talk with the boys and explain that you'll find 'em a better counselor back home so that they can really earn the badge, or go make a fuss with da Camp Director to make the staff re-do it if you're more of KC's mind. It ain't about "policy", it's about kids and character. But if yeh have to make it about policy or da books because yeh like being an amateur werewolf attorney, make it about da core statements of da program - Self confidence is developed by measuring up to a challenge or standard. Peer confidence develops when the same measuring system is used for everyone - when all must meet the same challenge to receive equal recognition. Confidence in leaders comes when there is consistency and fairness in measuring - when leaders use a single standard of fairness. No council, district, unit, or individual [MBC included] has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement. A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done The lads all know if da requirements were skirted, if one group got to do the swimming-in-clothes drill in shallow water while others followed da real, unsubtracted requirement of doing it in deep water. Supporting such a cheat because of paperwork signatures undermines their confidence in themselves, their confidence in their peers with da badge, and their confidence in you as a leader. It also weakens da BSA advancement program for everyone. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, as a BSA trainer, yeh can always offer more than the BSA syllabus, eh? And you can make use of the test-out process to move quickly through parts of da syllabus that your trainees already have down. In fact, that's exactly what you should do. So of course you can offer IOLS+ in your troop. Make it a year long course if you like and include WFA, winter camping, and water safety/paddling training. So long as the trainees get da core skills as part of that, you're being completely kosher. Now if yeh decide that in your unit LNT is more important than lashing and drop lashing entirely, that's not completely kosher, but who is goin' to complain? As for da rest, I'd encourage yeh not to think in terms of us vs them. The BSA is a big organization, eh? It's set up deliberately so that each CO can tailor its unit program to its own mission and needs. So you can run your outdoor emphasis program, and another unit can run a very light outdoor program with more of a service emphasis. You can interpret "show first aid for shock" as meaning identify the type of shock during a surprise scenario on the trail, choose the proper treatment, and demonstrate proper follow up. Another troop can interpret "show first aid for shock" as raising a kid's legs and throwing a blanket on him in a meeting hall. They might have 13 year old Eagles, you might not, but it's OK. You're serving different kids with different needs. No need to get in each others face about it. Then yeh can come here or to MyScouting or Scouts-L and debate da issues . Something yeh often see on da adult side in the BSA is some folks who don't really have much skill or experience. That's da nature of a volunteer organization as big as ours, eh? In place of real skill or experience they'll cling to da manuals and to the myths like a drowning man to a floating piece of flotsam. Since they can't swim without aid, they'll assume everyone is like them, eh? They can't imagine anyone would let go of da life preserver and just go swim, even if the water is warm and calm, and they'll shriek "danger!!" at anyone who does. Yeh can't argue with those folks. They'll just quote da coast guard regulations and certification on their life preserver from memory because they've been clinging to da thing for so long they've never read anything else. While you swim around and have fun they'll talk about how some fellow with no life preserver went swimming in a hurricane and drowned, to show how irresponsible you are. But yeh can't let that get to yeh either, eh? You wouldn't belittle a kid who had become successful getting comfortable with the water with a lifejacket on. You'd praise him for getting out in the water, and keep inviting him to go farther. Same here. There are a lot of well meaning and contributing scouters in that group, and they succeed in getting kids out camping, at least in the shallows. They're an asset. So don't think of 'em as da "beads crowd" except when yeh need to vent among friends. Think of 'em da same as your more cautious parents. And definitely dont blame all us Beavahs! (This message has been edited by Beavah)

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Sorry, that's the Marxist notion not the Christian notion Yah, sometimes I wonder whether anybody reads the Good Book anymore. And the multitude of believers had but one heart and one soul: neither did any one say that aught of the things which he possessed, was his own; but all things were common unto them. And with great power did the apostles give testimony of the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord; and great grace was in them all. For neither was there any one needy among them. For as many as were owners of lands or houses, sold them, and brought the price of the things they sold, And laid it down before the feet of the apostles. And distribution was made to every one, according as he had need. - Acts of the Apostles, chapter 4, vs. 32-35. Marx stole and then misinterpreted da notion. Much the way many folks use the Bible, eh? Sure doesn't seem like the apostles were the "everyone must pay their own way" crowd . I'm sure we did but the TC and parents chose to face economic realities. Yah, HICO, I'm wonderin' why the TC and parents made that decision, eh? Why not da PLC? That, more than the decision itself, seems unfortunate. B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

I think I'm gonna hurl... Yah, F, I never would have figured yeh for being Irish. I once got talked into hurling when visitin' friends outside of Dublin as a much younger Beavah. Wicked game, that. B

6) Follow the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America which state that Boy Scout Advancement is earned for proficiency in outdoor skills, and the core policy of Boy Scout Advancement that badges are earned only for what a scout is able to do, not what a scout has done (or has signed). Be honest with the boy and with your signature on the advancement report form, and help him see that he has not yet earned the badge. Go home and find him a counselor who will provide him a better experience. Give appropriate feedback to da Camp Director. Look for better camps, or plan to exercise greater control of your camp MB experience next year. (RECOMMENDED) 7) Give the lad the badge because paperwork is more important than character, even if da paperwork is clearly in error. Claim that you are following the policy of the Boy Scouts even when you're not. It's important to have a bureaucratic excuse for doing something that any kid realizes is just dumb. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

The part that dismays us is that many of those same kids/families who have trouble making ends meet are the ones who will NOT participate in the fundraisers we do to help pay for Jamboree. What the heck? Yah, that's often da case, SR540. The people who have time to give are the people who are well enough off, eh? Folks in real need will almost never participate in da fundraisers. Their real needs take priority. Just pickin' through our list, I know that one lad is from a single parent home, mom is barely gettin' by, address has changed several times in a year, etc. That boy and that family are usin' up all their energy just tryin' to keep a step ahead of disaster. Yeh think they have time to go sell popcorn for a few bucks? Unlike white suburban kids, they don't have relatives ready to spend bucks on that, nor friends in dad's company who are willing to kick in for a tin. But I can tell yeh, while Jambo is just "another great thing" for many boys, for boys like this one, it is "the one biggest thing ever." We aren't being truly kind and generous if we blame the people we are helping, instead of quietly praying "there, but for the grace of God, go I". I might be wrong, but I reckon that's da point Lisabob was tryin' to make. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, TNScoutTroop, welcome to da forums! I salute yeh for doing your best to really provide your adult leaders with da skills and experience they need to do a good job for the kids. BSA training can be a part of that, when it is done well. BSA training should never be the whole enchilada, because da BSA training just isn't that complete. So using other providers for training - Red Cross, SOLO, local outfitters and clubs - is a great thing. If yeh honestly have the personnel to do a good job with in-house training, then that's a great thing too. It tends to be more personal, more effective, and yeh tend to get a lot more people to take it than when yeh rely on council courses. If there's a good council trainer that yeh like, invite him or her along for part of your in-house sequence so that yeh get some outside perspective, and maybe they can OK yeh for da paperwork. Another thing yeh might consider if yeh want to keep all da paperwork folks happy is to have someone from da unit take Train the Trainer and get OK'd to instruct. Then you can do your in-house thing for folks and sign off on their IOLS or other training requirements. Plus your good folks will be available to offer training to other units who are interested. As yeh can tell, despite being a long-time volunteer, I don't buy into BSA trainin' as the be-all-and-end-all. I've seen a few units that do in-house trainin', and it's universally better than the BSA stuff in terms of outcomes. Pretty much any unit willing to invest that level of commitment to their adult leadership has the energy to put it together well. If we're honest, we all recognize that BSA trainin' is pretty spotty from place to place, and pretty generic/cursory even when done well. Put another way, da BSA trainin' is like buying a box of manufactured, preservative-filled cereal, eh? It's a factory product, it's da same everywhere, and in some cases it's been sittin' on the shelf too long. It's not particularly nutritious, but it will suffice for breakfast. It's certainly better than nothin'. Doin' your own thing is like cookin' your own meal from locally-grown produce. It's a lot more work, so most folks don't bother and just swear by Lucky Charms. But it's a lot more healthy and tasty! So my advice as always is to do what yeh need to do to provide the boys with the best possible experience, and don't sweat the other stuff too much. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Did those lowly privates split their infinitives? Yah, I reckon so, eh? Especially during the War to End Deviant Southern Human Rights Abuses. At least callin' it da Civil War is, well, civil. NJ, my title was designed in part as a tease, eh? A play on all the "socialist" word-slinging goin' on. So often folks who use that word to describe da health care legislation and bailouts are supporters of the programs that give them entitlements and that are truly closer to communist/socialist programs. Parents in da former Soviet Union had more options and choice for education than parents in the U.S. do. We pretty much model our K-12 education system on the way they ran da Soviet auto industry. Call it what yeh will, though, da question is whether free government-run schooling teaches kids and their parents an "entitlement" mentality? Love to hear your thoughts as a community representative to da government schools. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

What serves no purpose in Scouting is for troop adults to abdicate the opportunities to teach boys the value of money and to be self-reliant and independent by instead seeking out free money. Yah, sorry to be so dense and to keep wrestling with this, eh? Fscouter, is it bad for a scout to apply for a campership or an Eagle scholarship ("seeking out free money" instead of being self-reliant and independent)? Is it bad for me to solicit FOS contributions ("seeking out free money") to provide those camperships and scholarships and gear for Scoutreach units? (This message has been edited by Beavah)

An SPL is needed. The Scoutmaster teaches the SPL how to implement Scouting in the troop, and the SPL implements it. Yah, Eagledad said somethin' sorta like this earlier, eh? And then he commented that my reply was unintelligible. So what else is new? Let me try to give it another go. I see a lot of different troops, and da range of their implementation of stuff is pretty diverse. I guess I'd sorta categorize things a bit like this in terms of youth involvement: Adult Run Adults do most of the day to day tasks, with youth "helpers." Cooking, cleaning, setup. Sometimes that's all they know how to do; sometimes it's because they kinda think like Engineer61 and think it's da best way. Adult Led ("youth run") Kids get to do the day to day tasks, in a "chores" sort of way. Assigned cooks, assigned cleanup. They have some real responsibility, but the direction is mostly from the adults. Where there is youth leadership, it's more as a mouthpiece of the adults, and it'll tend to be just one or two boys (SPL), not a group of boys. Adult Directed ("youth led") Youth get to lead and are responsible for all of the day to day tasks and the basic outing stuff. They get to make choices within adult limits; they have annual planning conferences that might be a bit adult driven. Yeh see adults actively coaching youth leaders in a hands-on way; SM-to-SPL, ASMs assigned to PLs. The adults still hold on to a lot of things that they feel are beyond the boys - planning, making reservations, safety, budgeting etc. Adult Structured ("youth led") Here da youth may be trusted with things like planning, safety, and other things, eh? Just as long as it fits within the adult structure. Adult-style job descriptions, and committees, a top-down approach of da adult mentoring the SPL who mentors the PLs. Collaborative Youth get to make up their own structure, and adults are just a part of it. Job descriptions and roles change according to da people in them. Youth routinely work together in ways that aren't top-down, and da adults fade more into the background as occasional collaborators. Now there's nothing "wrong" with any of these, eh? And yeh see a lot of adults who proudly claim to be youth run at each of these levels. Most new leaders start at da top of the list and slowly develop the skills to work their way lower, but a lot get to one spot they're comfortable with and stop there. Loosely speaking, da ones closer to the top of the list run more as a whole troop, under an SPL's direction. To move down the list, adults first have to learn to trust individual kids, like da SPL and the QM. As yeh move further down the list, yeh see a lot better use of Patrol Method, rather than whole-troop stuff. To move to these levels, adults have to learn to trust groups of kids. They do that first by trying to make 'em into little adults, with job descriptions and committees. Then, if they're really wise, they learn to let 'em be groups of kids. Think of any committee. Who creates the agenda? Who chairs the meeting? Who should be the main interface with the Scoutmaster? Who should appoint the Troop Scribe, Bugler, Librarian, Historian, etc.? This is a good example, eh? Instead of thinking of a committee (adult work environment), think of a group of friends. Who creates da agenda at da Beavah's BBQ this weekend? Whoever wants to, eh? Da task is shared. Who chairs the meeting? Well, Beavah put this one together, but he doesn't really chair it. Mr. Buffalo ran last week's outing to da ball game but I reckon I brought my own chair. . If da group decides someone needs to write things down, then the person with good handwriting who doesn't mind doing that steps forward. Yeh don't "appoint a scribe". Da genius of Hillcourt and scouting is that if yeh use patrols of friends in the outdoors, it's very effective at teaching lads to collaborate with each other as friends to accomplish things. Yeh don't need to appoint a youth mentor to be da Voice of Sauron (I mean da SM...). So while there's nothing wrong with any of these ways of doin' scouting, I think the kids get the best, richest experience from the last one... when they're allowed to control da structure as well as the task. From his description, I reckon Eagledad's troop fell into da second to last group, eh? They trusted the boys with all the tasks but imposed the structure. That's common with large troops. sherminator sounds like maybe he's in da Adult Directed/youth led group. Again, nothing wrong with any of those; lots of fine troops there. Just part of da forums is to challenge us all to grow, eh? If they want to move further, the way to do it is to work on Patrol Method, which is usually da weakest and last implemented by most adult leaders. When left on their own and faced with a challenge, da patrols develop their own structure and dynamics to succeed, and the PLs all develop deep skills to help each other out rather than relying on an SPL mentor. Just my loose thoughts. Beavah

Yah, Bando, as packsaddle describes, that's what socialism is, eh? When da government owns the means of production, taxes all da population to deliver the product to some of 'em, and determines the nature of the product rather than letting the consumer decide. And like all socialist programs, da quality is mediocre and da product is a one-size-fits-all thing. Remember da 1970s Wendys commercials? No choice. Yah, as packsaddle describes, it's better in areas where people are more politically connected, of course, worse in others, but overall mediocre. Da biggest socialist programs in da U.S. are public schooling, Medicare, and Social Security. Da new complicated mess of a health care law doesn't come close. The latter two only corrupt da old folks, as we consistently vote to maintain our entitlement at da ever-increasing expense of the young and da country. But public schooling teaches the young that they're entitled to other peoples resources even if they don't study, bully others, etc. Even if yeh get expelled you're still entitled to a free public education at an even more expensive "alternative" school. And it teaches da parents that they are entitled to free day care so that they can go work, and that it's someone else's job to teach their kids everything from arithmetic to how to play well with others. Yeh should see da lawsuits that get filed against schools on a daily basis demanding everything from accommodation to a guaranteed spot on da varsity. . Most importantly, when I talk to kids, even scouts, they are rarely grateful for their public education, eh? They and their parents really do see it as an entitlement. Unique among our socialist programs, public schooling corrupts da attitudes of the young. Had a friend once say that kids should be provided with a free public education ... once. If yeh fail da first time, the do-over is on your own dime. It's a nice sentiment. Would never work as a policy, of course, because some kids come from family backgrounds that don't prepare 'em for success in school, and because it would give districts an incentive to fail people to make more money. All that's before getting into da staff entitlements like what Eagledad describes. Beavah

You don't teach that by putting yourself on the receiving end and accepting handouts. Nah, Fscouter, that doesn't work, eh? It can't be simultaneously good to give charity and bad to receive it. If it's bad to receive charity then giving charity must also be a bad thing, since it does harm to others. Da Christian notion is that each should give according to his ability and take according to his need, eh? It's a righteous act to accept a scholarship or campership, because it teaches humility, and respect for the generosity of others, and allows them to be able to perform an act of generosity. It's an OK thing to sell overpriced, low quality popcorn for da same reason - it's really just an invitation to others to be generous for a cause. Like anything, charity can be abused. On da receiving end, it can become a demand or expectation, taking advantage of the generosity of others. On the giving end, charity can also be abused, eh? When it is used to manipulate people, or to feel superior or self-righteous. Both are wrong. Seems to me that by worrying about da first you are committing the second. Just MHO, of course. Beavah

Yah, as always da insurance cover is not governed by what some staffer puts on a website. It's governed by the charter agreement and by the insurance master contract. Da only valid "show me in writing" source is that contract. It is true that some of da unauthorized activities are bona fide insurance exclusions. Used to be true that all of 'em were, but then H&S started adding dross like laser tag and water drinking to da list for political rather than safety/insurance reasons. At least da statement does make it clear that none of the rest of G2SS or any of those other urban legends about wearing or not wearing da uniform affect insurance, only the subset of da unauthorized list. As I've said in da past, the liability cover is a nice benefit, but only if it is reliable. If it has a bazillion exclusions and conditions and hidden traps, then it's not a benefit. We want it to be a benefit, so that COs and leaders can trust it, and the BSA. But if you're really one of those sorts who hang out here who get da night sweats about werewolf lawyers hunting you down, do yourself and your stomach ulcers a favor and just take out a healthy liability umbrella policy of your own, eh? Da stuff is cheap. Yeh can get $2m of coverage over the counter from any insurer for less than $200. $5M is readily available for not that much more. Then yeh don't have to worry either about your scout volunteering or driving da soccer carpool or having kids over for your son's birthday party, eh? Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, figured at least someone would want to respond to my statement in da parent thread. Figured I'd spin this off to prevent da hijack in advance. The quote was: In some ways, I think socialist programs like public schooling do teach entitlement to both kids and parents. Beavah

"A Scout pays his own way" has to mean the Scout pays 100%. Yah, but that's sorta what the phrase means to an ordinary human, ain't it? It sure seemed that way to me in FScouter's original post. I agree with my fellow Beaver in that what we don't want to teach is entitlement. It's just fine, as a learning exercise, to have boys earn a few bucks toward their activities. In some ways, I think socialist programs like public schooling do teach entitlement to both kids and parents. But, as someone pointed out, putting a "tax" on a boy's scouting does what taxes always do, eh? They discourage commerce. The more yeh tax kids for scouting, the more kids will choose other things rather than pay da tax. School sports are free for the lad, so a choice between sports and scouts becomes easier. Hangin' out at da mall or playin' video games is also "tax free". When yeh want to encourage a behavior like scouting, which on its own involves a lot of work learning and planning and such, yeh don't tax it. Yeh subsidize it. For that reason and others, I think we do want to teach generosity and gratitude. It's OK to accept a campership, or a scholarship, and a lad who accepts such things to further his scouting or his education shouldn't be saddled with negative attitudes about "taking handouts" or "not paying his own way." That's da problem with making "a scout pays his own way" into a value, rather than just a learning exercise on the road to developing a healthy work ethic. It's a fine learning exercise. It's just a lousy value. Fact is, if yeh really obey da labor laws, and value time for schoolwork and educational enrichment activities, most scouts can't possibly pay their own way. Not enough unskilled labor jobs out there to have every kid do what jblake did, and not every lad has the wit and intellect to balance commitments the way he did. Working during da school year is strongly associated with poor grades and dropping out of school, eh? Is that what we want to encourage? For me, I think da generosity lesson is more important. It goes to multiple points of the Scout Law and Oath, not just one - Loyal, Helpful, Kind, Reverent. Scouting, like every not-for-profit enterprise, is absolutely reliant on da charity and generosity of others. Soliciting for charity, and contributing to charity, and accepting the generosity of charity are all wonderful things that bind society together. They should be encouraged, not frowned upon or denigrated as "begging for a handout" or whatnot. We want to teach our lads to be donors someday, eh? To look on tithing and charitable giving as a great thing, even an obligation. Only way I know to do that well is to also teach that it's OK to humbly accept charity and be grateful for it, like any gift. Camperships and FOS and corporate donations to councils and units are just members of da community saying "we believe in you, and want to be a part of your life in the small ways we can." That should be celebrated. Beavah

Nah, scree doesn't avalanche like that, eh? It's just right difficult to wade through, or climb on and actually get anywhere. Guess that works, too . Beavah

I called Mr. Donohue's opinion piece a "homophobic scree" Yah, would that be a sloped pile of talus rocks that is afraid of looking the same? . Trev, religion doesn't tell people what to think any more than science or a news show. It provides a rich cultural and historical context in which to frame and answer questions, and it's done a fine job with a lot of those questions. Much of your modern, secular way of lookin' at da world is rooted in a Judeo-Christian culture and ethic. Yeh don't make your case by such ad hominem silliness, however pithy it is . Beavah